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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
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URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 1422
Comments: 69
The Two Minute Rebuttal Romans 13 Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same." I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him. On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer." No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government. Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).
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#15. To: Red Jones (#14)
bump.
Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority. IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due. Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe. I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established. And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word. If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place?
Great post. Additionally, people ALWAYS read the first part of the passage and leave off the rest. The remaining part of the scripture tells us what type of ruler it is we are to follow...one that does GODS work and is a terror to evil. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. The rulers we are supposed to follow as Christians, and represenatives in this government are completely different...I don't believe GOD wants us folowing rulers that think it's OK to murder 50 million babies, teach our children the wonders of the "gay" lifestlye, ingage and adultry, lies, murder without conscience, have removed GOD from every vestage of our government, have killed over 1 million innocent Iraq men, women and children, lied us into wars for the enrichment of the "military industrial complex", done experiments on unsuspecting portions of our population without there knowledge...you get the picture. NO...I firmly believe that we are about to experiance GOD's judgement for the very reason we DIDN'T stand up against these things.
"...In the final analysis, Israel’s finest kings fall far short of the standards set down by God in Deuteronomy 17. The failure of both David and Solomon in these areas is self-evident. In the end, there is only one person who has ever met these qualifications, our Lord Jesus Christ. He was rich, but He became poor on our behalf. He did not have or employ earthly power to establish His kingdom. He certainly did not multiply military might or wives. And so it is that Christ and Christ alone is fit to be God’s King, to reign on the earth forever and ever. 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice, “Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power and riches and wisdom and might and honor and glory and blessing.” 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” 14 And the four living creatures kept saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped (Revelation 5:11-14)..... I find it interesting that the Israelites want a man to make their god. It will never work, and the price for trying will be great. God’s way is to make God a man, a God-man, to save man from his sins and to rule over the earth as God’s King, the promised Messiah. This promised King who was prophesied to be both God and man is none other than our Lord Jesus Christ. We should learn one last lesson from this text: God sometimes gives us the thing we want and even demand, even though it will prove to be painful to us. I am reminded of that passage in the Psalms which speaks of the Israelites’ complaining because they have no meat, prompting God to give them their bellies full. It goes this way: 15 So He gave them their request, But sent a wasting disease among them (Psalm 106:15, NASB). 15 And He gave them their request, but sent leanness into their soul (KJV). There is a persistence in prayer and petition which is not an evidence of faith, but evidence of lustful greed. There is a perseverance in prayer which is not pious at all. It is possible that if we persist in asking for that which is not best, God may give it to us. It will be painful if this happens, but in giving us what we so desperately want, God disciplines us so that we learn to leave these things in His hands. In biblical terms, we must focus on seeking God first, and trust Him to add all those things He deems best for us (see Matthew 6:33). Let us be cautious that our requests to God are not demands. Let us learn from the Israelites of old so that we need not walk the path they had to walk." Give Us A King! http://www.bible.org/page.php?page_id=354# =============================================== In the end, when all is said and done, God willing, THIS is what our children and grandchildren will live with: Jer 30:9 — But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. Eze 34:23 — And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, [even] my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. my servant David king of Israel had been dead upwards of 400 years; and from that time till now there never has been a ruler of any kind in the Jewish nation of the name of David. By David, then, we must understand the Messiah, as the Jews themselves acknowledge, so called because descended from him, and also as being the well beloved, [o agapetos] Son of the Father, as the name imports, and in whom all the promises made to David were fulfilled. See the references. Eze 37:24,25; Isa 11:1; Isa 55:3,4; Jer 30:9; Hsa 3:5; Rev 22:16 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eze/34/23.html Jhn 1:47 Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. Jhn 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Isa 9:7 Of the increase of [his] government and peace [there shall be] no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Amen - well said.
Not to be picky, but our Constitutional Republic has only made it 231 years...not all that hot in the grand scheme of things.
absolutely agree. NO...I firmly believe that we are about to experiance GOD's judgement for the very reason we DIDN'T stand up against these things. Some DID stand up against these things, but things seem to have gotten out of hand. God foresaw this as well, and I believe He will step in, one way or the other: Deu 32:36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that [their] power is gone, and [there is] none shut up, or left. [unsure what this last phrase means] Deu 32:37 And he shall say, Where [are] their gods, [their] rock in whom they trusted, Deu 32:38 Which did eat the fat of their sacrifices, [and] drank the wine of their drink offerings? let them rise up and help you, [and] be your protection. Deu 32:39 See now that I, [even] I, [am] he, and [there is] no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither [is there any] that can deliver out of my hand. Deu 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever. Deu 32:41 If I whet my glittering sword, and mine hand take hold on judgment; I will render vengeance to mine enemies, and will reward them that hate me. Deu 32:42 I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; [and that] with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. Deu 32:43 Rejoice, O ye nations, [with] his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, [and] to his people. Some passages in the Bible do seem to indicate judgment on us. However, I see many more passages that would indicate rather than judgment [after all, we HAVE been afflicted for over 400 years at this point: Genesis 15:13-14/Gal. 3:29] DELIVERANCE from this yoke.....at least for those who bear the seal of God, and are not busy worshipping the Beast. Eze 9:3 ¶ And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which [had] the writer's inkhorn by his side; Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof. Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old [and] young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom [is] the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which [were] before the house. Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eze/Eze009.html#4 http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Eze/9/4.html Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mat/Mat013.html#41 There was a passage I was looking for, couldn't find, and then I had another that connected to a lot of related verses that would have been helpful to post here, but I must have deleted it. I need to take a break today, so I can't spend much time right now trying to find it again, but here is one I have not used before, and it is along the same lines: Zep 3:14 ¶ Sing, O daughter of Zion; shout, O Israel; be glad and rejoice with all the heart, O daughter of Jerusalem. Zep 3:15 The LORD hath taken away thy judgments, he hath cast out thine enemy: the king of Israel, [even] the LORD, [is] in the midst of thee: thou shalt not see evil any more. Zep 3:16 In that day it shall be said to Jerusalem, Fear thou not: [and to] Zion, Let not thine hands be slack. Zep 3:17 The LORD thy God in the midst of thee [is] mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing. Zep 3:18 I will gather [them that are] sorrowful for the solemn assembly, [who] are of thee, [to whom] the reproach of it [was] a burden. Zep 3:19 Behold, at that time I will undo all that afflict thee: and I will save her that halteth, and gather her that was driven out; and I will get them praise and fame in every land where they have been put to shame. Zep 3:20 At that time will I bring you [again], even in the time that I gather you: for I will make you a name and a praise among all people of the earth, when I turn back your captivity before your eyes, saith the LORD. http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zep/Zep003.html#11 Thank you for your input.
===================================== Not to be picky, but our Constitutional Republic has only made it 231 years...not all that hot in the grand scheme of things. lol! you're right...me bad! i completely missed that! i'm sorry, my eyes seem to get worse every day....time to make that dreaded [and expensive] trip to the eye doctor, i guess.
I don't know where you live, but here in Austin, there are enough eye docs to keep the prices fairly reasonable. Good luck with it.
Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes.
..how very dominionist :P
The rulers we are supposed to follow as Christians, and represenatives in this government are completely different Who do you believe the 'rulers' refer to? It can't be church leaders--they don't wield the sword that is spoken of in verse 3 as quoted above from your posting. Nor do church leaders collect tribute nor customs or mdse taxes.
Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?
Thank you for your message and for directing me to a very interesting article. I think his comments about the economics of sin and the statement that men loathe grace are especially insightful. The author was at Dallas Seminary when I was there, so I recognized his name. ++++++++++++++++++++++++++ small world
I, too, believe we should never have invaded Iraq. That is a sovereign nation that had never done us wrong thereby needing 'self defense'. I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil. You mentioned earlier about all the wrong that our nation been doing, i.e., the killing of babies thru abortion, etc. Absolutely evil and God will deal with all involved in His own good time and way. Matter of fact, there are no doubt being recordings made of this generation's wheat and tares. There will be only one perfect ruler, but He isn't here yet ruling. As much as David was a man after God's heart, he did many wrong things. And Solomon, the one who asked for wisdom when David died, went against so many of God's rules for kings. God could tell the difference between David's heart and Solomon's heart--Solomon was excluded from being line descendant to our Messiah. And yet, God used Solomon for His purposes. We can sit and second guess why God does what He does, but it's foolish, IMO, to do so. Regarding this passage in Romans, Paul seems to be telling the jewish christians and gentile christians at Rome to act as christians by obeying law and order. The Romans were down on christians and jews and it was going to get a whole lot worse. The jews were always trying to rebel and that was something Romans would not tolerate. And at that time, the Romans considered the christians but a sect or branch of judaism. Dead rebellious christians at such an early stage of christianity would have been unable to get the Gospel spread. And for people to be lawless or take the law in their hands has to be seen by God as chaos, and He is about the ordered nature of things. IMO....
Throughout the entire old testament GOD judged his people because of the corrupt leaders they allowed to rule over them. Whether the leaders were corrupt and lead the people astray or whether the people became corrupt and tolerated corrupt leaders the outcome was always the same...judgement. I believe this land was a gift from GOD to his people. Those who initially settled this new land did so for the advancement and glory of Jesus Christ. Our legal system was based on the old testament and our moral conduct was founded on the 10 commandments. Our monatary system was biblical...based on silver and gold. We have taken this gift of freedom, abundance and this GOD given land and sold it to mammon. Government is the GOD today and commercialism is our ruler. I firmly believe GOD will judge this nation severly, we are no different than his children in the past, and GOD doesn't change. Will he intervene at some point? He tells us he will, but make no mistake, there will be a price for our indifferance. We are seeing prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes...ever wonder how you have been shown the times we live in while others have no idea. 2 Thess 10 tells us that "for those who have not received the love of the truth, GOD would send them a strong delusion that they would believe the lie". Stay strong in the faith and thanks for your help spreading the good news of peace and salvation through our LORD and savior, Jesus the Christ.
... and those who think they hold the truth.. have been given the delusion and they have believed.
...so when our founders stood up to the king and declared their independence, they were being disobedient to GOD?
can't disagree with that statement...look at bush. Thats we should always turn toward GODS word for clarification and instruction.
Hmm well I dont agree with you on this one.. how was Saddam any more evil than other rulers? Was he more evil than Robert Mugabe for example.
I think bush is as evil as they come...and given the chance, I believe he could give Hitler, Stalin and Mao a run for their money. So far, we still have some safeguards in place
..agreed.. what so many christians do is not look for themselves but rather they run from one preacher/teacher to another.. wanting their next 'fix' having their ears "tickled"..
I didn't say he was more evil.......evil is evil, regardless of degree. And who knows.....before it is all over our son of a bitch may try to take out Mugabe, too--though I believe they're all afraid to touch a black leader! Wouldn't be prudent. God can use evil beings or events just as well as good beings or good events, in any way He wants. Don't get me wrong--I don't believe for a minute that God whispered in the liar in chief's ear or provided him a vision to go kill Saddam for Him. I'm still of the opinion that the liar in chief had a hard on against Saddam cause 'he tried ta kill mah daddy', [edit]
100% agreement. That is why we have so many people that call themselves Christians following bush blindly, regardless if a million innocent people are killed. The 501C3 church is BIG business.
I believe that we, as a country, are going to lose so much more than we will ever gain from this ME mis-adventure...in so many ways that we cannot even imagine them all.
Amen bro. Even a non-Christian should see the logic of your post.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Thanks IndieTX...
I agree totally, loddy....this fiasco does not bode well for us.
enjoyed your comments. great to see you. it's been too long. ;)
Thanks Christine...I'm always lurking. I read and enjoy your comments all the time. :?)
I believe I noted earlier there were times that it wasn't wrong, such as going against God's laws. Reaching back to studies of long ago in my younger days, the Declaration of Independence was but one of a long-running list petititons of grievances against the kings--generally, IIRC, it was complaints about forms of government or taxes, i.e., tea by way of example, or whiskey. But the Declaration was the culminating instrument and speaks out against the king's being against Gods laws or natures laws. That said, just because we don't like some law that is written or some judge's ruling, isn't license for us to all grab the muskets and head for DC. Even the founders provided examples for petioning the redress of grievances. Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'. The quiet acquiesence of previous generations by sitting on their duffs and letting gubmint 'do it' is about like those Israelites demanding they get Saul for a leader.......God let them have it. Moses, according to Deuteronomy explained the costs of doing it their way; they still wanted it, so they got to suffer the consequences. Just so ya know, I despise and loathe most everything feeble gubmint does and has done; ditto for much of what various state gubmints have done. And further, I loathe and despise the citizenry who are too lazy to get off their asses and become more active in trying to get things changed. But in the meantime, I accept that God is in charge overall. And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
That knowledge is what keeps me going...
Congress approval rating = 11% Executive/Bush approval rating = 29% The country overwhelmingly disapproves the government. Romans 13 is a difficult scripture ... Bush is a tyrant.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
I agree with everything you wrote...and we have indeed become a lazy people
Yeah, God may be in control, but that doesn't mean we remain static and accept the Evil and the Pricipalities that have taken over our country. We are to fight them spiritually AND physically...[note Jesus violence in the Temple with the money changers' table] Jesus was no wimp. We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition The perps aren't convinced they have the troops to do it. They may need a war with Russia and China to do it.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
My money is still on Russia...
Agree. At some point "non-action" on an issue, becomes "approval" of the issue.
I guarentee they don't. They don't even have the troops to tame Bagdad. If 5% of the people in this country were to rise up, it would be an army of 15 million, armed to the teeth.
I didnt mean to say you did say he was more evil.. why Saddam? Why not one that was persecuting Christians for example? Killing thousands upon thousands of people? Not saying Saddam was pristine by any means I just do not see him as one God was particularly singling out. I just do not believe that God under grace does the same thing as he did in the OT as far as leaders etc. I did at one time but I've changed my view on that..
Polls--those things are like sticking a finger in the air to check which way the wind is blowing; and 15 seconds later learning it is from a different direction. When push comes to shove, merikans are not going to give up their creature comforts, nor attempt to make a statement. Since getting on this thread, I've started doing some checking regarding this chapter. I found some commentary based on the Geneva Bible. I thought they were pertinent because of the times.....1553 Bloody Mary tried turning England back to Roman Catholicism, with people getting slaughtered all the time. So the people of that period were well aware of government tyranny. Here are some religous people who should be good and pissed at their government and be in active rebellion against it--after all, the king/queen were demanding they practice a religion not based on God's Word. I found this blurb about John Calvin, which I thought pertinent (naturally) because it supports the comments on the first few verses of Romans 13 which I will put below: Calvin's Contributions Calvin continued his work of reformation, not by a heavy-handed use of the civil magistrate, but with the preaching of God's Word and the building of the Church. Church government was lacking, not only in Geneva, but all over Protestant Europe. Calvin understood that only the Church, not the State, could define orthodox theology and bring about true long-term reform. According to the Bible, the State and the Church were jurisdictionally separate. Each had its God-ordained area of jurisdiction and authority - one civil (the State) and one ecclesiastical (the Church). Even so, Calvin insisted, both Church and State were ordained by God and obligated to follow His laws as they applied to their specific appointed jurisdictions. Calvin's view that God reigns everywhere and over all things led him to develop the biblical idea that man can serve God in every area of life - church, civil government, education, art, music, business, law, journalism. There was no need to be a priest, a monk, or a nun to get closer to God. God is glorified in everyday work and family life. Calvin's teaching led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant work ethic." Individual initiative leads to economic productivity as Christians work out their faith in their callings before God. Stricken with tuberculosis, Calvin preached his last sermon on February 6, 1564. Although bedridden until his death on May 27, 1564, Calvin continued to work, extending his legacy in the lives of those who sat under his teaching. Thanks to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, his printed sermons, the Academy, his commentaries on nearly every book of the Bible (except the Song of Solomon and the Book of Revelation), and his pattern of Church and Civil government, Calvin shaped the thought and motivated the ideals of Protestantism in France, the Netherlands, Poland, Hungry, Scotland, and the English Puritans; many of whom settled in America. The great American historian George Bancroft stated, "He that will not honor the memory, and respect the influence of Calvin, knows but little of the origin of American liberty." The famous German historian, Leopold von Ranke, wrote, "John Calvin was the virtual founder of America." John Adams, the second president of the United States, wrote: "Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it most respect." And now, the comments from the Geneva Bible Commentary, which is available through e-sword software, and where I found it: KJV IN BOLD Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:1 - Let (1) every (a) soul be subject unto the higher (2) powers. (3) For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are (b) ordained of God. (1) Now he distinctly shows what subjects owe to their magistrates, that is, obedience: from which he shows that no man is free: and the obedience we owe is such that it is not only due to the highest magistrate himself, but also even to the lowest, who has any office under him. (a) Indeed, though an apostle, though an evangelist, though a prophet; Chrysostom. Therefore the tyranny of the pope over all kingdoms must be thrown down to the ground. (2) A reason taken from the nature of the thing itself: for to what purpose are they placed in higher degree, but in order that the inferiors should be subject to them? (3) Another argument of great force: because God is author of this order: so that those who are rebels ought to know that they make war with God himself: and because of this they purchase for themselves great misery and calamity. (b) Be distributed: for some are greater, some smaller. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. NO COMMENTS ON VERSE 2 Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:3 - (4) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. (5) Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (4) The third argument, taken from the reason for which they were made, which is that they are to be most profitable: because God by this means preserves the good and bridles the wicked: by which words the magistrates themselves are put in mind of that duty which they owe to their subjects. (5) An excellent way to bear this yoke, not only without grief, but also with great profit. Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. (6) But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a (c) revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. (6) God has armed the magistrate even with an avenging sword. (c) By whom God avenges the wicked. Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:5 - (7) Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but (d) also for conscience sake. (7) The conclusion: we must obey the magistrate, not only for fear of punishment, but much more because (although the magistrate has no power over the conscience of man, yet seeing he is God's minister) he cannot be resisted by any good conscience. (d) So far as we lawfully may: for if unlawful things are commanded to us, we must answer as Peter teaches us, "It is better to obey God than men." Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:6 - (8) For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. (8) He sums up the main thing, in which consists the obedience of subjects. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Rom 13:7 - Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom (e) fear; honour to whom (f) honour. (e) Obedience, and that from the heart. (f) Reverence, which (as we have reason) we must give to the magistrate. ----------------- I will continue searching for the truth, regardless of where it leads, til He takes me away. I'll never forget Doc's admonition that we not park our brains at the church door. I"ll check my Interlinear tomorrow, and look up more Strongs. Oddly, this is one of Paul's sections I didn't feel a problem with--I'm not enamoured of it any more than the next guy, I don't reckon, but I do recall God establishing various leaders, using these leaders as well as foreign leaders or peoples. He also does not create chaos, and now, more than ever, chaos would be bad for His people. BTW, I agree that Bush is a tyrant; so is Cheney; so is Blair, and Mugabe, among others without a doubt.
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#16. To: rowdee (#7)
So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?
#17. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)
#18. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#14)
Patrick Henry's fears about the inadequacies and defects in the Constitution have been realized now in the 21st century -1681 years later. It has been a good run, but what will our children and grandchildren have to live with? "
#19. To: Freedomsnotfree. Bible class (#17)
...I don't believe GOD wants us following rulers that think it's OK to murder 50 million babies, teach our children the wonders of the "gay" lifestyle, engage and adultery, lies, murder without conscience, have removed GOD from every vestige of our government, have killed over 1 million innocent Iraq men, women and children, lied us into wars for the enrichment of the "military industrial complex", done experiments on unsuspecting portions of our population without there knowledge...you get the picture. NO...I firmly believe that we are about to experience GOD's judgment for the very reason we DIDN'T stand up against these things.
#20. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#18)
#21. To: Freedomsnotfree (#17)
he rulers we are supposed to follow as Christians, and represenatives in this government are completely different...I don't believe GOD wants us folowing rulers that think it's OK to murder 50 million babies, teach our children the wonders of the "gay" lifestlye, ingage and adultry, lies, murder without conscience, have removed GOD from every vestage of our government, have killed over 1 million innocent Iraq men, women and children, lied us into wars for the enrichment of the "military industrial complex", done experiments on unsuspecting portions of our population without there knowledge...you get the picture.
#22. To: lodwick (#20)
Patrick Henry's fears about the inadequacies and defects in the Constitution have been realized now in the 21st century -1681 years later.
#23. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#22)
..time to make that dreaded [and expensive] trip to the eye doctor, i guess.
#24. To: Freedomsnotfree (#16)
#25. To: lodwick (#8)
"Give Us A King!"
#26. To: Freedomsnotfree (#17)
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.
#27. To: rowdee (#24)
Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes
#28. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt. Bible class (#21)
I sent the http://bible.org link to a missionary friend in Athens: here's part of his reply -
#29. To: Freedomsnotfree (#27)
Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?
#30. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#21)
#31. To: Freedomsnotfree (#30)
2 Thess 10 tells us that "for those who have not received the love of the truth, GOD would send them a strong delusion that they would believe the lie"
#32. To: rowdee (#29)
#33. To: Zipporah (#31)
#34. To: rowdee (#29)
I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.
#35. To: rowdee (#29)
God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil
#36. To: Freedomsnotfree (#33)
#37. To: Zipporah (#34)
(Edited)
why while the vice liar in chief and his minions were going for the oil. That Saddam and his boys were killed was just a side benefit...I think God can use 'coincidences'.
#38. To: Zipporah (#36)
#39. To: rowdee. Bible class (#37)
#40. To: Freedomsnotfree (#17)
I don't believe GOD wants us folowing rulers that think it's OK to murder 50 million babies, teach our children the wonders of the "gay" lifestlye, ingage and adultry, lies, murder without conscience, have removed GOD from every vestage of our government, have killed over 1 million innocent Iraq men, women and children, lied us into wars for the enrichment of the "military industrial complex", done experiments on unsuspecting portions of our population without there knowledge...you get the picture. NO...I firmly believe that we are about to experiance GOD's judgement for the very reason we DIDN'T stand up against these things.
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#41. To: IndieTX (#40)
#42. To: lodwick (#39)
#43. To: Freedomsnotfree (#41)
#44. To: christine (#43)
#45. To: Freedomsnotfree (#32)
#46. To: rowdee (#45)
And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#47. To: rowdee (#45)
Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'.
#48. To: rowdee (#45)
#49. To: who knows what evil, ALLTHEKINGS'HORSESWONTDOIT, ROWDEE, ALL, noone222, red jones (#46)
And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#50. To: IndieTX (#49)
We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter."
#51. To: noone222 (#50)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#52. To: IndieTX (#49)
We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.
#53. To: noone222 (#50)
The perps aren't convinced they have the troops to do it.
#54. To: rowdee (#37)
#55. To: noone222 (#47)
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