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Religion
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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 2426
Comments: 69

The Two Minute Rebuttal

Romans 13

Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same."

I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him.

On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer."

No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government.

Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 52.

#1. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

Well done - thank you.

Point. Set. Match.

Game Over.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-22   22:25:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: lodwick (#1)

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-22   23:40:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: rowdee (#7)

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   12:50:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Freedomsnotfree (#16)

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   15:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: rowdee (#24)

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   16:06:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Freedomsnotfree (#27)

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

I, too, believe we should never have invaded Iraq. That is a sovereign nation that had never done us wrong thereby needing 'self defense'. I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.

You mentioned earlier about all the wrong that our nation been doing, i.e., the killing of babies thru abortion, etc. Absolutely evil and God will deal with all involved in His own good time and way. Matter of fact, there are no doubt being recordings made of this generation's wheat and tares.

There will be only one perfect ruler, but He isn't here yet ruling. As much as David was a man after God's heart, he did many wrong things. And Solomon, the one who asked for wisdom when David died, went against so many of God's rules for kings. God could tell the difference between David's heart and Solomon's heart--Solomon was excluded from being line descendant to our Messiah. And yet, God used Solomon for His purposes.

We can sit and second guess why God does what He does, but it's foolish, IMO, to do so.

Regarding this passage in Romans, Paul seems to be telling the jewish christians and gentile christians at Rome to act as christians by obeying law and order. The Romans were down on christians and jews and it was going to get a whole lot worse. The jews were always trying to rebel and that was something Romans would not tolerate. And at that time, the Romans considered the christians but a sect or branch of judaism.

Dead rebellious christians at such an early stage of christianity would have been unable to get the Gospel spread.

And for people to be lawless or take the law in their hands has to be seen by God as chaos, and He is about the ordered nature of things.

IMO....

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   16:19:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: rowdee (#29)

...so when our founders stood up to the king and declared their independence, they were being disobedient to GOD?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   16:41:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Freedomsnotfree (#32)

I believe I noted earlier there were times that it wasn't wrong, such as going against God's laws. Reaching back to studies of long ago in my younger days, the Declaration of Independence was but one of a long-running list petititons of grievances against the kings--generally, IIRC, it was complaints about forms of government or taxes, i.e., tea by way of example, or whiskey.

But the Declaration was the culminating instrument and speaks out against the king's being against Gods laws or natures laws.

That said, just because we don't like some law that is written or some judge's ruling, isn't license for us to all grab the muskets and head for DC. Even the founders provided examples for petioning the redress of grievances.

Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'. The quiet acquiesence of previous generations by sitting on their duffs and letting gubmint 'do it' is about like those Israelites demanding they get Saul for a leader.......God let them have it. Moses, according to Deuteronomy explained the costs of doing it their way; they still wanted it, so they got to suffer the consequences.

Just so ya know, I despise and loathe most everything feeble gubmint does and has done; ditto for much of what various state gubmints have done. And further, I loathe and despise the citizenry who are too lazy to get off their asses and become more active in trying to get things changed.

But in the meantime, I accept that God is in charge overall. And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   17:39:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: rowdee (#45)

And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.

That knowledge is what keeps me going...

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-09-23   17:43:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: who knows what evil, ALLTHEKINGS'HORSESWONTDOIT, ROWDEE, ALL, noone222, red jones (#46)

And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.

Yeah, God may be in control, but that doesn't mean we remain static and accept the Evil and the Pricipalities that have taken over our country. We are to fight them spiritually AND physically...[note Jesus violence in the Temple with the money changers' table] Jesus was no wimp. We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.

IndieTX  posted on  2007-09-23   17:50:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: IndieTX (#49)

We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.

Agree. At some point "non-action" on an issue, becomes "approval" of the issue.

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   17:55:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


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