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Religion
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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 1519
Comments: 69

The Two Minute Rebuttal

Romans 13

Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same."

I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him.

On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer."

No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government.

Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 54.

#1. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

Well done - thank you.

Point. Set. Match.

Game Over.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-22   22:25:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: lodwick (#1)

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-22   23:40:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: rowdee (#7)

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   12:50:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Freedomsnotfree (#16)

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   15:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: rowdee (#24)

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   16:06:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Freedomsnotfree (#27)

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

I, too, believe we should never have invaded Iraq. That is a sovereign nation that had never done us wrong thereby needing 'self defense'. I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.

You mentioned earlier about all the wrong that our nation been doing, i.e., the killing of babies thru abortion, etc. Absolutely evil and God will deal with all involved in His own good time and way. Matter of fact, there are no doubt being recordings made of this generation's wheat and tares.

There will be only one perfect ruler, but He isn't here yet ruling. As much as David was a man after God's heart, he did many wrong things. And Solomon, the one who asked for wisdom when David died, went against so many of God's rules for kings. God could tell the difference between David's heart and Solomon's heart--Solomon was excluded from being line descendant to our Messiah. And yet, God used Solomon for His purposes.

We can sit and second guess why God does what He does, but it's foolish, IMO, to do so.

Regarding this passage in Romans, Paul seems to be telling the jewish christians and gentile christians at Rome to act as christians by obeying law and order. The Romans were down on christians and jews and it was going to get a whole lot worse. The jews were always trying to rebel and that was something Romans would not tolerate. And at that time, the Romans considered the christians but a sect or branch of judaism.

Dead rebellious christians at such an early stage of christianity would have been unable to get the Gospel spread.

And for people to be lawless or take the law in their hands has to be seen by God as chaos, and He is about the ordered nature of things.

IMO....

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   16:19:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: rowdee (#29)

I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.

Hmm well I dont agree with you on this one.. how was Saddam any more evil than other rulers? Was he more evil than Robert Mugabe for example.

Zipporah  posted on  2007-09-23   16:48:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Zipporah (#34) (Edited)

I didn't say he was more evil.......evil is evil, regardless of degree. And who knows.....before it is all over our son of a bitch may try to take out Mugabe, too--though I believe they're all afraid to touch a black leader! Wouldn't be prudent.

God can use evil beings or events just as well as good beings or good events, in any way He wants.

Don't get me wrong--I don't believe for a minute that God whispered in the liar in chief's ear or provided him a vision to go kill Saddam for Him. I'm still of the opinion that the liar in chief had a hard on against Saddam cause 'he tried ta kill mah daddy', [edit] why while the vice liar in chief and his minions were going for the oil. That Saddam and his boys were killed was just a side benefit...I think God can use 'coincidences'.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   16:58:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: rowdee (#37)

I didnt mean to say you did say he was more evil.. why Saddam? Why not one that was persecuting Christians for example? Killing thousands upon thousands of people? Not saying Saddam was pristine by any means I just do not see him as one God was particularly singling out. I just do not believe that God under grace does the same thing as he did in the OT as far as leaders etc. I did at one time but I've changed my view on that..

Zipporah  posted on  2007-09-23   19:28:29 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 54.

#56. To: Zipporah (#54)

I don't know that God has a list that He goes down in order of preference to eliminate for the evils perped by these tyrants. I doubt we, as americans with a bent of being not the most well-informed race on planet earth, can begin to imagine all that he and his sons and generals and such did. The same can be said for a whole lot of bad guys--including our own.

In time, I well could change my opinion though I can't see myself doing any sort of a research project in it to attempt to analyse Scripture. OTOH, I could be sitting here like a turnip and get something dropped on my head to awake me. Wouldn't be the first time my eyes have been opened anew. :)

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23 19:52:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 54.

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