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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 1496
Comments: 69

The Two Minute Rebuttal

Romans 13

Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same."

I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him.

On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer."

No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29).

What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government.

Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).

http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm

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#1. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

Well done - thank you.

Point. Set. Match.

Game Over.

Lod  posted on  2007-09-22   22:25:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-22   23:40:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

So where does King David and his attitude towards the authority of Saul figure in?

Even though David was picked by God, he didn't lift a hand against Saul-- because Saul was the anointed authority.

IMO, Paul is telling us that regardless of who our leaders are, its all in Gods plan re authority. Looking at Romans 13:7, he's saying pay tribute to who it is owed, pay customs or trade tariffs where due, fear, meaning reverence or awe of those who who should be revered, and honor those to whom honor is due.

Recall that Saul was not what God had in mind for the people--they wanted a king and they wanted it to be Saul and God went along with them. He didn't have to, but it was to make a point to them, I believe.

I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.

And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word.

If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   12:50:56 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   15:31:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   16:06:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Then from your point of view, we sould have stayed out of Iraq because GOD put Saddam in power and that is/was his will? Don't get me wrong...I firmly believe we should never have invaded Iraq, but it may be for a different reason than you. What are your thoughts?

I, too, believe we should never have invaded Iraq. That is a sovereign nation that had never done us wrong thereby needing 'self defense'. I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.

You mentioned earlier about all the wrong that our nation been doing, i.e., the killing of babies thru abortion, etc. Absolutely evil and God will deal with all involved in His own good time and way. Matter of fact, there are no doubt being recordings made of this generation's wheat and tares.

There will be only one perfect ruler, but He isn't here yet ruling. As much as David was a man after God's heart, he did many wrong things. And Solomon, the one who asked for wisdom when David died, went against so many of God's rules for kings. God could tell the difference between David's heart and Solomon's heart--Solomon was excluded from being line descendant to our Messiah. And yet, God used Solomon for His purposes.

We can sit and second guess why God does what He does, but it's foolish, IMO, to do so.

Regarding this passage in Romans, Paul seems to be telling the jewish christians and gentile christians at Rome to act as christians by obeying law and order. The Romans were down on christians and jews and it was going to get a whole lot worse. The jews were always trying to rebel and that was something Romans would not tolerate. And at that time, the Romans considered the christians but a sect or branch of judaism.

Dead rebellious christians at such an early stage of christianity would have been unable to get the Gospel spread.

And for people to be lawless or take the law in their hands has to be seen by God as chaos, and He is about the ordered nature of things.

IMO....

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   16:19:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

...so when our founders stood up to the king and declared their independence, they were being disobedient to GOD?

Freedomsnotfree  posted on  2007-09-23   16:41:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe I noted earlier there were times that it wasn't wrong, such as going against God's laws. Reaching back to studies of long ago in my younger days, the Declaration of Independence was but one of a long-running list petititons of grievances against the kings--generally, IIRC, it was complaints about forms of government or taxes, i.e., tea by way of example, or whiskey.

But the Declaration was the culminating instrument and speaks out against the king's being against Gods laws or natures laws.

That said, just because we don't like some law that is written or some judge's ruling, isn't license for us to all grab the muskets and head for DC. Even the founders provided examples for petioning the redress of grievances.

Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'. The quiet acquiesence of previous generations by sitting on their duffs and letting gubmint 'do it' is about like those Israelites demanding they get Saul for a leader.......God let them have it. Moses, according to Deuteronomy explained the costs of doing it their way; they still wanted it, so they got to suffer the consequences.

Just so ya know, I despise and loathe most everything feeble gubmint does and has done; ditto for much of what various state gubmints have done. And further, I loathe and despise the citizenry who are too lazy to get off their asses and become more active in trying to get things changed.

But in the meantime, I accept that God is in charge overall. And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   17:39:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'.

Congress approval rating = 11%

Executive/Bush approval rating = 29%

The country overwhelmingly disapproves the government.

Romans 13 is a difficult scripture ... Bush is a tyrant.

noone222  posted on  2007-09-23   17:45:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Polls--those things are like sticking a finger in the air to check which way the wind is blowing; and 15 seconds later learning it is from a different direction. When push comes to shove, merikans are not going to give up their creature comforts, nor attempt to make a statement.

Since getting on this thread, I've started doing some checking regarding this chapter. I found some commentary based on the Geneva Bible. I thought they were pertinent because of the times.....1553 Bloody Mary tried turning England back to Roman Catholicism, with people getting slaughtered all the time. So the people of that period were well aware of government tyranny. Here are some religous people who should be good and pissed at their government and be in active rebellion against it--after all, the king/queen were demanding they practice a religion not based on God's Word.

I found this blurb about John Calvin, which I thought pertinent (naturally) because it supports the comments on the first few verses of Romans 13 which I will put below:

Calvin's Contributions

Calvin continued his work of reformation, not by a heavy-handed use of the civil magistrate, but with the preaching of God's Word and the building of the Church. Church government was lacking, not only in Geneva, but all over Protestant Europe. Calvin understood that only the Church, not the State, could define orthodox theology and bring about true long-term reform. According to the Bible, the State and the Church were jurisdictionally separate. Each had its God-ordained area of jurisdiction and authority - one civil (the State) and one ecclesiastical (the Church). Even so, Calvin insisted, both Church and State were ordained by God and obligated to follow His laws as they applied to their specific appointed jurisdictions.

Calvin's view that God reigns everywhere and over all things led him to develop the biblical idea that man can serve God in every area of life - church, civil government, education, art, music, business, law, journalism. There was no need to be a priest, a monk, or a nun to get closer to God. God is glorified in everyday work and family life. Calvin's teaching led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant work ethic." Individual initiative leads to economic productivity as Christians work out their faith in their callings before God.

Stricken with tuberculosis, Calvin preached his last sermon on February 6, 1564. Although bedridden until his death on May 27, 1564, Calvin continued to work, extending his legacy in the lives of those who sat under his teaching.

Thanks to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, his printed sermons, the Academy, his commentaries on nearly every book of the Bible (except the Song of Solomon and the Book of Revelation), and his pattern of Church and Civil government, Calvin shaped the thought and motivated the ideals of Protestantism in France, the Netherlands, Poland, Hungry, Scotland, and the English Puritans; many of whom settled in America. The great American historian George Bancroft stated, "He that will not honor the memory, and respect the influence of Calvin, knows but little of the origin of American liberty." The famous German historian, Leopold von Ranke, wrote, "John Calvin was the virtual founder of America." John Adams, the second president of the United States, wrote: "Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it most respect."

And now, the comments from the Geneva Bible Commentary, which is available through e-sword software, and where I found it:

KJV IN BOLD

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:1 - Let (1) every (a) soul be subject unto the higher (2) powers. (3) For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are (b) ordained of God.

(1) Now he distinctly shows what subjects owe to their magistrates, that is, obedience: from which he shows that no man is free: and the obedience we owe is such that it is not only due to the highest magistrate himself, but also even to the lowest, who has any office under him.

(a) Indeed, though an apostle, though an evangelist, though a prophet; Chrysostom. Therefore the tyranny of the pope over all kingdoms must be thrown down to the ground. (2) A reason taken from the nature of the thing itself: for to what purpose are they placed in higher degree, but in order that the inferiors should be subject to them? (3) Another argument of great force: because God is author of this order: so that those who are rebels ought to know that they make war with God himself: and because of this they purchase for themselves great misery and calamity.

(b) Be distributed: for some are greater, some smaller.

Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

NO COMMENTS ON VERSE 2

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

Rom 13:3 - (4) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. (5) Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

(4) The third argument, taken from the reason for which they were made, which is that they are to be most profitable: because God by this means preserves the good and bridles the wicked: by which words the magistrates themselves are put in mind of that duty which they owe to their subjects. (5) An excellent way to bear this yoke, not only without grief, but also with great profit.

Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Rom 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. (6) But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a (c) revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

(6) God has armed the magistrate even with an avenging sword.

(c) By whom God avenges the wicked.

Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

Rom 13:5 - (7) Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but (d) also for conscience sake.

(7) The conclusion: we must obey the magistrate, not only for fear of punishment, but much more because (although the magistrate has no power over the conscience of man, yet seeing he is God's minister) he cannot be resisted by any good conscience.

(d) So far as we lawfully may: for if unlawful things are commanded to us, we must answer as Peter teaches us, "It is better to obey God than men."

Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

Rom 13:6 - (8) For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

(8) He sums up the main thing, in which consists the obedience of subjects.

Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

Rom 13:7 - Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom (e) fear; honour to whom (f) honour.

(e) Obedience, and that from the heart.

(f) Reverence, which (as we have reason) we must give to the magistrate.

-----------------

I will continue searching for the truth, regardless of where it leads, til He takes me away. I'll never forget Doc's admonition that we not park our brains at the church door. I"ll check my Interlinear tomorrow, and look up more Strongs.

Oddly, this is one of Paul's sections I didn't feel a problem with--I'm not enamoured of it any more than the next guy, I don't reckon, but I do recall God establishing various leaders, using these leaders as well as foreign leaders or peoples. He also does not create chaos, and now, more than ever, chaos would be bad for His people.

BTW, I agree that Bush is a tyrant; so is Cheney; so is Blair, and Mugabe, among others without a doubt.

rowdee  posted on  2007-09-23   19:43:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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