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Title: ROMANS 13 - THE TWO MINUTE REBUTTAL
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URL Source: http://romans13.embassyofheaven.com/2minute.htm
Published: Sep 22, 2007
Author: Embassy of Heaven
Post Date: 2007-09-22 22:15:01 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Christianity, Resistance
Views: 1583
Comments: 69
The Two Minute Rebuttal Romans 13 Let's say Apostle Paul was telling the Church, "Be subject to the secular government," which at that time was the Roman Empire. And he was also saying, "Rome is not a terror to good works, but to the evil. The Roman centurion does not swing his sword in vain. Therefore, do good and you shall have praise of the same." I pose only one question, Why was Apostle Paul beheaded by a Roman Centurion if he was preaching, "Be subject to Rome"? The Roman government would have no cause to behead him. On the other hand, if Paul was beheaded because he was an "evildoer," why is an "evildoer" writing in our Holy Book? We better purge him out of there. We better clean up the Holy Scriptures. We better remove Romans 13 because it was written by an "evildoer." No, I don't believe for a minute that Paul was telling the Church to be subject to the Roman Empire. Nor do I believe Paul was an evildoer. Paul was beheaded for promoting a rival government. It has to be. The secular authorities killed him because he was establishing another government, the Kingdom of Heaven. Paul would be a hypocrite if he were saying to obey the secular authorities in Romans 13. It is inconsistent with his other writings. In Romans 12, Paul tells us, "do not be conformed to this world" (Romans 12:2). Obeying the secular authorities certainly means conforming to the world. In 2 Corinthians, Chapter 6:14-17, Paul says, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers, for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? . . . Come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." We cannot cut our ties with the world and still be subject to them. "We ought to obey God rather than men" (Acts 5:29). What is the study of the Holy Bible from beginning to end? It is God's people rebelling against Him and seeking to be like the Kingdoms of this world. Again and again, they are brought into harsh slavery because of their disobedience. Chasing after the Kingdoms of this world leads to death. Only the Kingdom of Heaven is an everlasting government. Christ's government is here right now. It is His government that every soul is to be subject to. Turn away from sin and come out from the governments of the world. "Be subject unto the higher powers within Ecclesia, within Christ's government." (See Hebrews 13:7 and 13:17).
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#30. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#21)
Throughout the entire old testament GOD judged his people because of the corrupt leaders they allowed to rule over them. Whether the leaders were corrupt and lead the people astray or whether the people became corrupt and tolerated corrupt leaders the outcome was always the same...judgement. I believe this land was a gift from GOD to his people. Those who initially settled this new land did so for the advancement and glory of Jesus Christ. Our legal system was based on the old testament and our moral conduct was founded on the 10 commandments. Our monatary system was biblical...based on silver and gold. We have taken this gift of freedom, abundance and this GOD given land and sold it to mammon. Government is the GOD today and commercialism is our ruler. I firmly believe GOD will judge this nation severly, we are no different than his children in the past, and GOD doesn't change. Will he intervene at some point? He tells us he will, but make no mistake, there will be a price for our indifferance. We are seeing prophecy being fulfilled before our eyes...ever wonder how you have been shown the times we live in while others have no idea. 2 Thess 10 tells us that "for those who have not received the love of the truth, GOD would send them a strong delusion that they would believe the lie". Stay strong in the faith and thanks for your help spreading the good news of peace and salvation through our LORD and savior, Jesus the Christ.
... and those who think they hold the truth.. have been given the delusion and they have believed.
...so when our founders stood up to the king and declared their independence, they were being disobedient to GOD?
can't disagree with that statement...look at bush. Thats we should always turn toward GODS word for clarification and instruction.
Hmm well I dont agree with you on this one.. how was Saddam any more evil than other rulers? Was he more evil than Robert Mugabe for example.
I think bush is as evil as they come...and given the chance, I believe he could give Hitler, Stalin and Mao a run for their money. So far, we still have some safeguards in place
..agreed.. what so many christians do is not look for themselves but rather they run from one preacher/teacher to another.. wanting their next 'fix' having their ears "tickled"..
I didn't say he was more evil.......evil is evil, regardless of degree. And who knows.....before it is all over our son of a bitch may try to take out Mugabe, too--though I believe they're all afraid to touch a black leader! Wouldn't be prudent. God can use evil beings or events just as well as good beings or good events, in any way He wants. Don't get me wrong--I don't believe for a minute that God whispered in the liar in chief's ear or provided him a vision to go kill Saddam for Him. I'm still of the opinion that the liar in chief had a hard on against Saddam cause 'he tried ta kill mah daddy', [edit]
100% agreement. That is why we have so many people that call themselves Christians following bush blindly, regardless if a million innocent people are killed. The 501C3 church is BIG business.
I believe that we, as a country, are going to lose so much more than we will ever gain from this ME mis-adventure...in so many ways that we cannot even imagine them all.
Amen bro. Even a non-Christian should see the logic of your post.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Thanks IndieTX...
I agree totally, loddy....this fiasco does not bode well for us.
enjoyed your comments. great to see you. it's been too long. ;)
Thanks Christine...I'm always lurking. I read and enjoy your comments all the time. :?)
I believe I noted earlier there were times that it wasn't wrong, such as going against God's laws. Reaching back to studies of long ago in my younger days, the Declaration of Independence was but one of a long-running list petititons of grievances against the kings--generally, IIRC, it was complaints about forms of government or taxes, i.e., tea by way of example, or whiskey. But the Declaration was the culminating instrument and speaks out against the king's being against Gods laws or natures laws. That said, just because we don't like some law that is written or some judge's ruling, isn't license for us to all grab the muskets and head for DC. Even the founders provided examples for petioning the redress of grievances. Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'. The quiet acquiesence of previous generations by sitting on their duffs and letting gubmint 'do it' is about like those Israelites demanding they get Saul for a leader.......God let them have it. Moses, according to Deuteronomy explained the costs of doing it their way; they still wanted it, so they got to suffer the consequences. Just so ya know, I despise and loathe most everything feeble gubmint does and has done; ditto for much of what various state gubmints have done. And further, I loathe and despise the citizenry who are too lazy to get off their asses and become more active in trying to get things changed. But in the meantime, I accept that God is in charge overall. And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
That knowledge is what keeps me going...
Congress approval rating = 11% Executive/Bush approval rating = 29% The country overwhelmingly disapproves the government. Romans 13 is a difficult scripture ... Bush is a tyrant.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
I agree with everything you wrote...and we have indeed become a lazy people
Yeah, God may be in control, but that doesn't mean we remain static and accept the Evil and the Pricipalities that have taken over our country. We are to fight them spiritually AND physically...[note Jesus violence in the Temple with the money changers' table] Jesus was no wimp. We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition The perps aren't convinced they have the troops to do it. They may need a war with Russia and China to do it.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
My money is still on Russia...
Agree. At some point "non-action" on an issue, becomes "approval" of the issue.
I guarentee they don't. They don't even have the troops to tame Bagdad. If 5% of the people in this country were to rise up, it would be an army of 15 million, armed to the teeth.
I didnt mean to say you did say he was more evil.. why Saddam? Why not one that was persecuting Christians for example? Killing thousands upon thousands of people? Not saying Saddam was pristine by any means I just do not see him as one God was particularly singling out. I just do not believe that God under grace does the same thing as he did in the OT as far as leaders etc. I did at one time but I've changed my view on that..
Polls--those things are like sticking a finger in the air to check which way the wind is blowing; and 15 seconds later learning it is from a different direction. When push comes to shove, merikans are not going to give up their creature comforts, nor attempt to make a statement. Since getting on this thread, I've started doing some checking regarding this chapter. I found some commentary based on the Geneva Bible. I thought they were pertinent because of the times.....1553 Bloody Mary tried turning England back to Roman Catholicism, with people getting slaughtered all the time. So the people of that period were well aware of government tyranny. Here are some religous people who should be good and pissed at their government and be in active rebellion against it--after all, the king/queen were demanding they practice a religion not based on God's Word. I found this blurb about John Calvin, which I thought pertinent (naturally) because it supports the comments on the first few verses of Romans 13 which I will put below: Calvin's Contributions Calvin continued his work of reformation, not by a heavy-handed use of the civil magistrate, but with the preaching of God's Word and the building of the Church. Church government was lacking, not only in Geneva, but all over Protestant Europe. Calvin understood that only the Church, not the State, could define orthodox theology and bring about true long-term reform. According to the Bible, the State and the Church were jurisdictionally separate. Each had its God-ordained area of jurisdiction and authority - one civil (the State) and one ecclesiastical (the Church). Even so, Calvin insisted, both Church and State were ordained by God and obligated to follow His laws as they applied to their specific appointed jurisdictions. Calvin's view that God reigns everywhere and over all things led him to develop the biblical idea that man can serve God in every area of life - church, civil government, education, art, music, business, law, journalism. There was no need to be a priest, a monk, or a nun to get closer to God. God is glorified in everyday work and family life. Calvin's teaching led directly to what has become known as the "Protestant work ethic." Individual initiative leads to economic productivity as Christians work out their faith in their callings before God. Stricken with tuberculosis, Calvin preached his last sermon on February 6, 1564. Although bedridden until his death on May 27, 1564, Calvin continued to work, extending his legacy in the lives of those who sat under his teaching. Thanks to the Institutes of the Christian Religion, his printed sermons, the Academy, his commentaries on nearly every book of the Bible (except the Song of Solomon and the Book of Revelation), and his pattern of Church and Civil government, Calvin shaped the thought and motivated the ideals of Protestantism in France, the Netherlands, Poland, Hungry, Scotland, and the English Puritans; many of whom settled in America. The great American historian George Bancroft stated, "He that will not honor the memory, and respect the influence of Calvin, knows but little of the origin of American liberty." The famous German historian, Leopold von Ranke, wrote, "John Calvin was the virtual founder of America." John Adams, the second president of the United States, wrote: "Let not Geneva be forgotten or despised. Religious liberty owes it most respect." And now, the comments from the Geneva Bible Commentary, which is available through e-sword software, and where I found it: KJV IN BOLD Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Rom 13:1 - Let (1) every (a) soul be subject unto the higher (2) powers. (3) For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are (b) ordained of God. (1) Now he distinctly shows what subjects owe to their magistrates, that is, obedience: from which he shows that no man is free: and the obedience we owe is such that it is not only due to the highest magistrate himself, but also even to the lowest, who has any office under him. (a) Indeed, though an apostle, though an evangelist, though a prophet; Chrysostom. Therefore the tyranny of the pope over all kingdoms must be thrown down to the ground. (2) A reason taken from the nature of the thing itself: for to what purpose are they placed in higher degree, but in order that the inferiors should be subject to them? (3) Another argument of great force: because God is author of this order: so that those who are rebels ought to know that they make war with God himself: and because of this they purchase for themselves great misery and calamity. (b) Be distributed: for some are greater, some smaller. Rom 13:2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. NO COMMENTS ON VERSE 2 Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: Rom 13:3 - (4) For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. (5) Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: (4) The third argument, taken from the reason for which they were made, which is that they are to be most profitable: because God by this means preserves the good and bridles the wicked: by which words the magistrates themselves are put in mind of that duty which they owe to their subjects. (5) An excellent way to bear this yoke, not only without grief, but also with great profit. Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Rom 13:4 - For he is the minister of God to thee for good. (6) But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a (c) revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil. (6) God has armed the magistrate even with an avenging sword. (c) By whom God avenges the wicked. Rom 13:5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. Rom 13:5 - (7) Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but (d) also for conscience sake. (7) The conclusion: we must obey the magistrate, not only for fear of punishment, but much more because (although the magistrate has no power over the conscience of man, yet seeing he is God's minister) he cannot be resisted by any good conscience. (d) So far as we lawfully may: for if unlawful things are commanded to us, we must answer as Peter teaches us, "It is better to obey God than men." Rom 13:6 For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Rom 13:6 - (8) For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. (8) He sums up the main thing, in which consists the obedience of subjects. Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor. Rom 13:7 - Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom (e) fear; honour to whom (f) honour. (e) Obedience, and that from the heart. (f) Reverence, which (as we have reason) we must give to the magistrate. ----------------- I will continue searching for the truth, regardless of where it leads, til He takes me away. I'll never forget Doc's admonition that we not park our brains at the church door. I"ll check my Interlinear tomorrow, and look up more Strongs. Oddly, this is one of Paul's sections I didn't feel a problem with--I'm not enamoured of it any more than the next guy, I don't reckon, but I do recall God establishing various leaders, using these leaders as well as foreign leaders or peoples. He also does not create chaos, and now, more than ever, chaos would be bad for His people. BTW, I agree that Bush is a tyrant; so is Cheney; so is Blair, and Mugabe, among others without a doubt.
I don't know that God has a list that He goes down in order of preference to eliminate for the evils perped by these tyrants. I doubt we, as americans with a bent of being not the most well-informed race on planet earth, can begin to imagine all that he and his sons and generals and such did. The same can be said for a whole lot of bad guys--including our own. In time, I well could change my opinion though I can't see myself doing any sort of a research project in it to attempt to analyse Scripture. OTOH, I could be sitting here like a turnip and get something dropped on my head to awake me. Wouldn't be the first time my eyes have been opened anew. :)
Well the last few years has taught me nothing other than to be skeptical about anything official that's been said about most everything.. On God.. Ive become very much a partial preterist.. I always was to a certain degree but as time goes on I'm more in that camp than ever.. On being hit upside the head, I may get that too :P
I found this in an online edition of William Barclay's "The Daily Study Bible" series. Barclay was a lecturer at the University of Glasgow; a biblical scholar. It seems like I read something negative about him a long time ago, but I also know a minister's son who thought he was good. I'm not sure when Barclay existed, datewise. The Daily Study Bible series was published here in the states IIRC in 1955. It isn't 'dry' reading IMO. I put a part of it in bold (a couple of sentences) where he seems to get into the heart of the matter. Anyways, this was from his comments on The Letter to the Romans: THE CHRISTIAN AND THE STATE Rom. 13:1-7 Let everyone render due obedience to those who occupy positions of outstanding authority, for there is no authority which is not allotted its place by God, for the authorities which exist have been set in their places by God. So he who sets himself up against authority has really set himself up against God's arrangement of things. Those who do set themselves against authority will receive condemnation upon themselves. For the man who does good has nothing to fear from rulers, but the man who does evil has. Do you wish to be free of fear of authority? Do good and you will enjoy praise from authority, for any servant of God exists for your good. If you do evil, then you must fear. For it is not for nothing that the man set in authority bears the sword, for he is the servant of God, and his function is to vent wrath and vengeance on the man who does evil. So, then, it is necessary for you to submit yourself, not because of the wrath, but for the sake of your own conscience. For this same reason you must pay your taxes too; for those set in authority are the servants of God, and continue to work for that very end. Give to all men what is due to them. Give tribute to those to whom tribute is due; pay taxes to those to whom taxes are due. Give fear to those to whom fear is due. Give honour to those to whom honour is due. At first reading this is an extremely surprising passage, for it seems to counsel absolute obedience on the part of the Christian to the civil power. But, in point of fact, this is a commandment which runs through the whole New Testament. In 1Tim. 2:1-2, we read: "I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and for all who are in high positions; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way." In Tit. 3:1 the advice to the preacher is: "Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for any honest work." In 1 Pet. 2:13-17 we read: "Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do wrong and to praise those who do right. For it is Gods will that by doing right you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish men.... Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the emperor." We might be tempted to argue that these passages come from a time when the Roman government had not begun to persecute the Christians. We know, for instance, in the Book of Acts that frequently, as Gibbon had it, the tribunal of the pagan magistrate was often the safest refuge against the fury of the Jewish mob. Time and again we see Paul receiving protection at the hands of impartial Roman justice. But the interesting and the significant thing is that many years, and even centuries later, when persecution had begun to rage and Christians were regarded as outlaws, the Christian leaders were saying exactly the same thing. Justin Martyr (Apology 1:17) writes, "Everywhere, we, more readily than all men, endeavour to pay to those appointed by you the taxes, both ordinary and extraordinary, as we have been taught by Jesus. We worship only God, but in other things we will gladly serve you, acknowledging you as kings and rulers of men, and praying that, with your kingly power, you may be found to possess also sound judgment." Athenagoras, pleading for peace for the Christians, writes (chapter 37): "We deserve favour because we pray for your government, that you may, as is most equitable, receive the kingdom, son from father, and that your empire may receive increase and addition, until all men become subject to your sway." Tertullian (Apology 30) writes at length: "We offer prayer for the safety of our princes to the eternal, the true, the living God, whose favour, beyond all other things, they must themselves desire.... Without ceasing, for all our emperors we offer prayer. We pray for life prolonged; for security to the empire; for protection for the imperial house; for brave armies, a faithful senate, a virtuous people, the world at rest--whatever, as man or Caesar, an emperor would wish." He goes on to say that the Christian cannot but look up to the emperor because he "is called by our Lord to his office." And he ends by saying that "Caesar is more ours than yours because our God appointed him." Arnobius (4: 36) declares that in the Christian gatherings "peace and pardon are asked for all in authority." It was the consistent and official teaching of the Christian Church that obedience must be given to, and prayers made for, the civil power, even when the wielder of that civil power was a Nero. What is the thought and belief at the back of this? (i) In Paul's case there was one immediate cause of his stressing of civil obedience. The Jews were notoriously rebellious. Palestine, especially Galilee, was constantly seething with insurrection. Above all there were the Zealots; they were convinced that there was no king for the Jews but God; and that no tribute must be paid to anyone except to God. Nor were they content with anything like a passive resistance. They believed that God would not be helping them unless they embarked on violent action to help themselves. Their aim was to make any civil government impossible. They were known as the dagger-bearers. They were fanatical nationalists sworn to terrorist methods. Not only did they use terrorism towards the Roman government; they also wrecked the houses and burned the crops and assassinated the families of their own fellow-Jews who paid tribute to the Roman government. In this Paul saw no point at all. It was, in fact, the direct negation of all Christian conduct. And yet, at least in one part of the nation, it was normal Jewish conduct. It may well be that Paul writes here with such inclusive definiteness because he wished to dissociate Christianity altogether from insurrectionist Judaism, and to make it clear that Christianity and good citizenship went necessarily hand in hand. (ii) But there is more than a merely temporary situation in the relationship between the Christian and the state. It may well be true that the circumstances caused by the unrest of the Jews are in Paul's mind, but there are other things as well. First and foremost, there is this--no man can entirely dissociate himself from the society in which he lives and has a part. No man can, in conscience, opt out of the nation. As a part of it, he enjoys certain benefits which he could not have as an individual; but he cannot reasonably claim all the privileges and refuse all the duties. As he is part of the body of the Church. he is also part of the body of the nation; there is no such thing in this world as an isolated individual. A man has a duty to the state and must discharge it even if a Nero is on the throne. (iii) To the state a man owes protection. It was the Platonic idea that the state existed for the sake of justice and safety and secured for a man security against wild beasts and savage men. "Men," as it has been put, "herded behind a wall that they might be safe." A state is essentially a body of men who have covenanted together to maintain certain relationships between each other by the observance of certain laws. Without these laws and the mutual agreement to observe them, the bad and selfish strong man would be supreme; the weaker would go to the wall; life would become ruled by the law of the jungle. Every ordinary man owes his security to the state, and is therefore under a responsibility to it. (iv) To the state ordinary people owe a wide range of services which individually they could not enjoy. It would be impossible for every man to have his own water, light, sewage, transport system. These things are obtainable only when men agree to live together. And it would be quite wrong for a man to enjoy everything the state provides and to refuse all responsibility to it. That is one compelling reason why the Christian is bound in honour to be a good citizen and to take his part in all the duties of citizenship. (v) But Paul's main view of the state was that the Roman Empire was the divinely ordained instrument to save the world from chaos. Take away that Empire and the world would disintegrate into flying fragments. It was in fact the pax Romana, the Roman peace, which gave the Christian missionary the chance to do his work. Ideally men should be bound together by Christian love; but they are not; and the cement which keeps them together is the state. Paul saw in the state an instrument in the hand of God, preserving the world from chaos. Those who administered the state were playing their part in that great task. Whether they knew it or not they were doing God's work, and it was the Christian's duty to help and not to hinder. THE DEBTS WHICH MUST BE PAID AND THE DEBT WHICH NEVER CAN BE PAID Rom. 13:8-10 Owe no man anything, except to love each other; for he who loves the other man has fulfilled the law. The commandments, You must not commit adultery, You must not kill, You must not steal, You must not covet, and any other commandment there may be, are all summed up in this saying--You must love your neighbour as yourself. Love does no harm to its neighbour. Love is, therefore, the complete fulfilment of the law. The previous passage dealt with what might be called a man's public debts. Rom. 13:7 mentions two of these public debts. There is what Paul calls tribute, and what he calls taxes. By tribute he means the tribute that must be paid by those who are members of a subject nation. The standard contributions that the Roman government levied on its subject nations were three. There was a ground tax by which a man had to pay, either in cash or in kind, one-tenth of all the grain, and one fifth of the wine and fruit produced by his ground. There was income tax, which was one per cent of a man's income. There was a poll tax, which had to be paid by everyone between the ages of fourteen and sixty five. By taxes Paul means the local taxes that had to be paid. There were customs duties, import and export taxes, taxes for the use of main roads, for crossing bridges, for entry into markets and harbours, for the right to possess an animal, or to drive a cart or wagon. Paul insists that the Christian must pay his tribute and his taxes to state and to local authority, however galling it may be. Then he turns to private debts. He says, "Owe no man anything." It seems a thing almost unnecessary to say; but there were some who even twisted the petition of the Lord's Prayer, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors," into a reason for claiming absolution from all money obligations. Paul had to remind his people that Christianity is not an excuse for refusing our obligations to our fellow men; it is a reason for fulfilling them to the utmost. He goes on to speak of the one debt that a man must pay every day, and yet, at the same time, must go on owing every day, the debt to love each other. Origen said: "The debt of love remains with us permanently and never leaves us; this is a debt which we both discharge every day and for ever owe." It is Paul's claim that if a man honestly seeks to discharge this debt of love, he will automatically keep all the commandments. He will not commit adultery, for when two people allow their physical passions to sweep them away, the reason is, not that they love each other too much, but that they love each other too little; in real love there is at once respect and restraint which saves from sin. He will not kill, for love never seeks to destroy, but always to build up; it is always kind and will ever seek to destroy an enemy not by killing him, but by seeking to make him a friend. He will never steal, for love is always more concerned with giving than with getting. He will not covet, for covetousness (epithumia) is the uncontrolled desire for the forbidden thing, and love cleanses the heart, until that desire is gone. --------------------------------- Honestly, I'd not given this subject matter much though, other than a few months ago I started praying for our national leaders. If anybody needs prayer, it is surely that whole mess. Somewhere along the line, I had come across or read, most likely here, something about oaths of office. And a 'light bulb' moment came on as it dawned upon me the connection between not taking the name of the Lord in vain and what these yahoos were doing, i.e., they swear 'so help me God' that they will protect and defend. It was hard to get into, believe me, because I despise so much of what they say and do. But just sitting back and bitching about it doesn't get very far, and it is not practical or is near impossible to camp out on all their doorsteps until 'they get it'. And certainly, prayer is not the only thing one can or should do. But truthfully, I don't recall ever hearing a 'religious leader' asking for the people to pray for our leaders, whether they were the best things since hotcakes were invented or the worst thing since Nero.
It is absolutely Biblical to pray for our public leaders. However, this nation would not have been created were it not for men who fought for their Freedom to escape a "Nero." I can not, as a Christian, believe Paul meant to obey all civil authorities regardless of their immorality or the consequences. Will you watch as your children are incarcerated into concentration camps or murdered. I won't and I never will. Therefore, I can only conclude that the passages quoted are wrong, and if they are wrong, then they are not of God, and you know what that means. [For one it means I'm no longer calling myself a "christian"] But that isn't going to happen so there has to be another explanation....... For me to believe Paul at face value, I would also believe that The Bible is a misguided un-supernatural book of history and morals, of which I am no longer ppart. However, I will never renounce my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit...but something is seriously wrong with the good book. Any enlightenment ATKHWDI is welcome because I am at a total loss......
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition I don't believe Paul nor the others are telling you to stand by and wave to your kids as they are either murdered or go to camps. God gave us brains to use and the responsibility of caring for our children. I believe you'll find elsewhere that its said to submit so long as it doesn't go against Gods laws/laws of nature. Over-reacting or over-stating a non-existent problem or yet-to=be-existent problem doesn't seem to help with understanding what was written by more than one Apostle. And I believe it was Irenaeus I read (early church father/leader) who indicated this was their understanding as well. Another thing I found interesting last night as I visited around the web, was some of the old petitions to the King--even as they bitched about non- representation, for instance, they were respectful, and cordial in their words and best wishes and indications of being servants, if you will, to the King. There was none of the macho "just come over here and i'll kick your ass' attitude. They were honorable men in how they dealth with authority, even as it led, years later, to the American Revolution.
Well that's because you get more bears with honey and everyone was polite back then pretty much in their writing especially....unless they got riled...and they did..which is why the AR. Stating my response to a future problem is what this 4um is about..discussing issues. It is not overreacting. The interpretations of what the Apostles meant in the history of the period can not be taken literally today. Especially today. And yes Paul's words WOULD have us standby and watch our kids taken into custody illegally or killed by the authorities if taken literally, which is why the interpretion is wrong or the apostles were wrong.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Their answer would probably be like, "God doesn't establish evil governments." Then you show them how evil the USA government is and they start babbling like idiots and call you anti-America! Then you tell them we ought to obey God rather than man, and they start showing you their great "skills" in logic by saying God said obey the government! These fools worship the state, it is their God. Many such preachers preaching that Romans 13:1-7 is talking about civil governments are on the government payroll. It is called the "Clergy Response Team." Most that believe Romans 13 is talking about civil governments think it means theirs only. In the original Greek their is not one word in Romans 13:1-7 that translates to "government", not one single word, but that doesn't stop many translations from putting that word in there. Obviously Paul is saying that any power that does not follow God's laws is a illegitimate "higher power" and is NOT established by him. Which means he was talking about the higher powers within the Church, it leaders, elders, deacons, and its minsters to execute judgement on evil doers I believe are God's angels.
God is always good!
Because God is in charge? You think that is why we are in Iraq? You think it is God's "purpose" to kill millions of innocent people in wars? If I wasn't a Christian I sure wouldn't want to be one after what you just said. God is not starting these wars, evil men are that are listening to the devil. God did not tempt Job, the devil did. He allowed Job to be tempted by the devil to prove that Job was his servant to all. God allows evil for reasons we do not comprehend, he does not take part in it though, and he most certainly does not establish evil!
God is always good!
sorry to ressurect this years old thread, but a 4um search on Romans 13 threads reveals many with hundreds of comments, & this was the 1st that came up. A consensus of posters agree that Christians by no means must submit to tyranny.
"Even to the death fight for truth, and the LORD your God will battle for you". Sirach 4:28
The Clergy Response Team is telling their congregations that Roman's 13 says to obey the government cause they are God's ministers. Paul was killed and tortured by the Roman government, the people he wrote the letter to would have never thought he was talking about obeying them, or that they were God's servants. The kingdoms of this world are in Satan's hands, they certainly aren't ministers of God, but rather Satan.
God is always good!
I am amazed at all the faithful Christians in forum that can quote scripture at the drop of a hat, but I fear for your spiritual growth, and do not think you are ready for the challenges ahead of us. I posted a beautiful message of peace and love recently and thought all the religious folk here would immediately grasp that it was the perfect metaphor for the kind of church that Jesus would approve of. I am not soliciting further responses to my post, but I truly think you should take a look at it, and take another look at yourselves! freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=138952 Respectfully Yours,
It is vital to understand that there is no truth without discernment and no wisdom without the truth. What then is “faith” but an effort to confound truth and wisdom?
Not so!! Jesus was against the formation of a church.You said it yourself: "Obviously Paul is saying that any power that does not follow God's laws is a illegitimate "higher power" and is NOT established by him."
It is vital to understand that there is no truth without discernment and no wisdom without the truth. What then is “faith” but an effort to confound truth and wisdom?
And with that said, I do believe there are instances where we are not to go along with them--and that is in going against Gods' word. If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place? In that case, we were wrong to wage war against the British for our independence.
During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act.
My point exactly...as Christians we are supposed to stand against evil. The rallying cry in the Revolutionary war was NO king but king Jesus. That war was BORN from the pulpits across this country. There were so many pastors involved in the fighting they were called the "black robed brigades".
#31. To: Freedomsnotfree (#30)
2 Thess 10 tells us that "for those who have not received the love of the truth, GOD would send them a strong delusion that they would believe the lie"
#32. To: rowdee (#29)
#33. To: Zipporah (#31)
#34. To: rowdee (#29)
I don't mean for a minute that Saddam was a good guy and should have been ruler, but I believe God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil.
#35. To: rowdee (#29)
God used our sonofabitch to take out that evil
#36. To: Freedomsnotfree (#33)
#37. To: Zipporah (#34)
(Edited)
why while the vice liar in chief and his minions were going for the oil. That Saddam and his boys were killed was just a side benefit...I think God can use 'coincidences'.
#38. To: Zipporah (#36)
#39. To: rowdee. Bible class (#37)
#40. To: Freedomsnotfree (#17)
I don't believe GOD wants us folowing rulers that think it's OK to murder 50 million babies, teach our children the wonders of the "gay" lifestlye, ingage and adultry, lies, murder without conscience, have removed GOD from every vestage of our government, have killed over 1 million innocent Iraq men, women and children, lied us into wars for the enrichment of the "military industrial complex", done experiments on unsuspecting portions of our population without there knowledge...you get the picture. NO...I firmly believe that we are about to experiance GOD's judgement for the very reason we DIDN'T stand up against these things.
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#41. To: IndieTX (#40)
#42. To: lodwick (#39)
#43. To: Freedomsnotfree (#41)
#44. To: christine (#43)
#45. To: Freedomsnotfree (#32)
#46. To: rowdee (#45)
And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#47. To: rowdee (#45)
Furthermore, no doubt the nation is fairly evenly split on what is or isn't 'good government'.
#48. To: rowdee (#45)
#49. To: who knows what evil, ALLTHEKINGS'HORSESWONTDOIT, ROWDEE, ALL, noone222, red jones (#46)
And so long as I am following His words, and I'm dealt a bad hand by gubmint, I know He'll take care of me, and He sure as hell is gonna take care of 'them'. Not on my time schedule, but on His.
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#50. To: IndieTX (#49)
We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter."
#51. To: noone222 (#50)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#52. To: IndieTX (#49)
We, as Christians, do not have a duty to "go quietly to the slaughter." That is in no way Biblical.
#53. To: noone222 (#50)
The perps aren't convinced they have the troops to do it.
#54. To: rowdee (#37)
#55. To: noone222 (#47)
#56. To: Zipporah (#54)
#57. To: rowdee (#56)
#58. To: noone222, IndieTX, Freedomsnotfree, Zipporah, whoknowswhatevil (#47)
#59. To: rowdee, allthekings'horseswontdoit (#58)
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#60. To: IndieTX (#59)
#61. To: rowdee, allthekings'horseswontdoit (#60)
(Edited)
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#62. To: Freedomsnotfree (#16)
(Edited)
If you believe this, as do many proclaiming Christians, why are we in Iraq and 127 different other countries trying to transform the government that GOD put in place?
#63. To: rowdee (#24)
Because God is in charge. He uses the good, as well as evil, to work His purposes.
#64. To: hounddawg, christine (#0)
#65. To: Artisan (#64)
#66. To: All (#0)
#67. To: RickyJ (#62)
(Edited)
Which means he was talking about the higher powers within the Church, it leaders, elders, deacons, and its minsters to execute judgement on evil doers I believe are God's angels.
#68. To: Freedomsnotfree, rowdee (#16)
I believe we make a real mistake, from God's standpoint, when we decide to go against the authorities He's established.
#69. To: Bill D Berger (#68)
In that case, we were wrong to wage war against the British for our independence.
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