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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: U.S. Detention Centers are Part of Long-Term DHS Plan: "ENDGAME," Part I
Source: Daily Kos
URL Source: http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/9/30/74155/1739
Published: Sep 30, 2007
Author: Residentcynic
Post Date: 2007-09-30 12:21:35 by Zipporah
Keywords: None
Views: 1469
Comments: 113

U.S. Detention Centers are Part of Long-Term DHS Plan: "ENDGAME," Part I Hotlist

by Residentcynic [Subscribe]

Sun Sep 30, 2007 at 04:41:55 AM PDT

I recently spent some time on the web researching the Bush Doctrine and neocon (Straussian)-based policy. What I didn’t expect to find was an operational government program which targets immigrants and "potential terrorists" on a grand scale. Never missing an opportunity for Orwellian titles, the Department of Homeland Security has named this little gem "ENDGAME."

Its goal is "the removal of all removable aliens, (including illegal economic migrants, aliens who have committed criminal acts, asylum-seekers required to be retained by law) or potential terrorists." (Executive summary of document)

Can't "potential terrorist" mean, well, anybody?

Details below~~

ENDGAME is the policy executed by the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) and its sub-agencies, the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) and the Office of Detention and Removal (DRO), that is part of a sweeping 10-year plan (2002-2012) to: 1) apprehend, 2) incarcerate (detain), 3) "process"—(investigate and question), and 4) remove all removable aliens or potential terrorists. The order of apprehension to removal is literal, as the Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) under DHS shifted the traditionally two-pronged approach of 1)investigation, 2)detention-removal to a one-pronged approach in 2000: detention-first and "process" the person while incarcerated. (p. 2-7 of ENDGAME document)

This is especially troubling, as the detention-removal prong was originally set up for aliens who had committed crimes. According to ICE, the investigation prong was discarded in 2000 because incarcerating first "reduce[s] potential demand for detention space, save[s] money,"increase[s] public safety, reduce[s] the potential for future crimes, and enhance[s] the welfare of our society." (2-7)

In 2000, 2004, and most recently on January 22, 2006, DHS awarded Halliburton subsidiary Kellogg, Brown, and Root (KBR) a contingency contract from DHS. The 2006 contract gave KBR $385 million "to establish temporary detention and processing capabilities to expand existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S.,or to support the rapid development of new programs."

Two weeks later, on Feb. 6, 2006, Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, "announced that the Fiscal Year 2007 federal budget would allocate over $400 million to add 6,700 additional detention beds. This $400 million allocation is more than a four-fold increase over the FY 2006 budget, which provided only $90 million for the same purpose." The contract accomodates "up to 20,000 refugees from environmental and political disasters. A future expansion in 2008 calls for another 20,000 beds."

Four hundred million dollars and 40,000+ beds is certainly a bizarre way to save money and improve efficiency, no? Further, the contingency in the contract provides that KBR gets paid well before an "immigrant emergency" happens, and funds KBR even if an emergency doesn't occur. Representative Henry A. Waxman, (D-CA), called the contract "worrisome."

"With Halliburton's ever expanding track record of overcharging, it's hard to believe that the administration has decided to entrust Halliburton with even more taxpayer dollars," Mr. Waxman said. "With each new contract, the need for real oversight grows."

If KBR building enough detention centers by the end of this year to incarcerate 20,000+ people, and another 20,000 by 2008, isn’t enough to give one pause, the spokespeople should:

"A spokesman for the [Army Corps of Engineers, who issued the bid], Clayton Church, said that the centers could be at unused military sites or temporary structures and that each one would hold up to 5,000 people." He also claimed the reason for the centers were to "feed, house, and protect" the immigrants.

(Perhaps the 30 bases that Rumsfeld decommissioned just weeks after the 9-11 attacks are what they have in mind.)

A spokeswoman for ICE, Jamie Zuieback, said:

"KBR would build the centers only in an emergency like the one when thousands of Cubans floated on rafts to the United States."

She emphasized that the centers might never be built if such an emergency did not arise.

"It's the type of contract that could be used in some kind of mass migration" Ms. Zuieback said.

Mass migration into the United States? The same United States that deports "potential terrorists" to Guantanamo and other far flung renditions? Sorry, I don’t buy it. I believe ENDGAME's program "is designed to house additional detainees who have not been convicted of crimes."

Attorney Ahilan Arulanantham with the ACLU of Southern California told AlterNet":

"Obviously, if the government's intentions are to care for refugees displaced by a natural disaster, we have no problem with that. But with the numbers of detentions, which have exploded since 1996 and more so after Sept. 11 -- and remember after 9/11, the government detained over 1,000 people in New York City, none of whom were linked to terrorist activity -- based on stories like these, we fear that their program could victimize people fleeing persecution or calamity, the very people that the program is designed to help."

BACKGROUND:

Not surprisingly, the original highly classified version of ENDGAME began during the Reagan administration, and was called "Continuity of Government" or COG. The planners included Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld when Cheney was a congressman for Wyoming and Rumsfeld was former defense secretary under Gerald Ford, and CEO of G.D. Serle, a pharmaceutical company.

"Under it U.S. officials furtively carried out detailed planning exercises for keeping the federal government running during and after a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. The program called for setting aside the legal rules for presidential succession in some circumstances, in favor of a secret procedure for putting in place a new "President" and his staff. The idea was to concentrate on speed, to preserve "continuity of government," and to avoid cumbersome procedures; the speaker of the House, the president pro tempore of the Senate, and the rest of Congress would play a greatly diminished role."

"COG proposals included vastly expanded detention capabilities, warrantless eavesdropping and detention, and preparations for greater use of martial law. These men planned for suspension of the Constitution, not just after nuclear attack, but for any "national security emergency," which they defined in Executive Order 12656 of 1988 as: 'Any occurrence, including natural disaster, military attack, technological or other emergency, that seriously degrades or seriously threatens the national security of the United States.'"

COG was made official in 2002 as a Commission, and is "an American Enterprise Institute and Brookings Institution project, funded by the Carnegie, Hewlett, Packard, and MacArthur Foundations." President Jimmy Carter is the honorary chairman and Lloyd Cutler and Alan Simpson are the commission's co-chairs; its members include Newt Gingrich, Leon Panetta, Jamie Gorelick, and other notables. On the website, the introduction describes its reason for existence:

"September 11th raised the possibility that foreign enemies might seriously disrupt the filling of vacancies in Congress, presidential succession, and achieving a quorum for the Court so much so that our basic institutions might not function in a normal constitutional manner."

According to the Washington Post and the 9-11 Commission Report, Vice President Cheney implemented a COG plan in the form of a "shadow government" by the new name of "Continuity of Operations Plan" (COP) immediately after 9-11, which dispatched "100 senior civilian managers to live and work secretly outside Washington, activating for the first time long-standing plans to ensure survival of federal rule after catastrophic attack on the nation's capital." The extent of their operation has never been reported. (Also reported on CBS News and CNN.)

Although I don’t agree with his platform, Rep. Ron Paul has this to say about COG and its Commision:

The "Continuity of Government Commission" (COGC), spearheaded by the Brookings Institution and the American Enterprise Institute, recently issued proposals for the operation of Congress following a catastrophic terrorist attack. Specifically, COGC advocates a constitutional amendment calling for the appointment of individuals to the House of Representatives to fill the seats of dead or incapacitated members, a first in American history. An examination of the proposal reveals that it is both unnecessary and dangerous.

Note that COGC is "self-commissioned," its members being neither elected nor appointed by any government body. The biographies of the commissioners demonstrate that COGC is made up mostly of professional lobbyists. Of course COGC is well-intentioned, but the nation should know exactly who is trying to substitute their wisdom for that of James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and other framers of the Constitution. I think most Americans would prefer that proposals to amend the Constitution come from elected lawmakers or grassroots efforts, not from think tanks and lobbyists.

One reading the COGC proposal cannot help but sense the familiar Washington conceit at work, a conceit that sees America as totally dependent on the workings of Capitol Hill. It is simply unthinkable to many in Washington that the American people might survive a period in which Congress did not pass any new laws. But the truth is that the federal state is not America. The American people have always been remarkably resilient in the face of emergencies, and individual states are far more equipped to deal with emergencies and fill congressional vacancies than COGC imagines.

In summary, ENDGAME is the second phase of a Reagan-era program, COG, furthered by Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld to thwart the constitutional process of succession in case of an national emergency or disaster. ENDGAME is now aligned with the immigration arm of government, and also terrorism. It's goal, or "endgame" is to round up and detain "all" deportable aliens or "potential terrorists" before 2012, some 12 million is a conservative estimate. A heady feat, but well on its way with a $400 million contingency contract awarded to Halliburton's subsidiary, Kellogg, Brown, and Root by the Department of Homeland Security.

If it weren't for everything we've been through these last six years, I wouldn't believe these programs were legitimate. Unfortunately, they are. This isn't the America I know, this is fascism.

I plan on doing another diary, a Part II, in the next week or two, which will detail current ICE abuses and immigration issues. This walk has become a marathon, and I don't want to abscond anyone else's material. BTW, I searched the terms, "ENDGAME" "Detention Centers" "COG" and "KBR" and didn't come up with any diaries on these subjects. Apologies if I repeated anyone's material.

A final note: I tried to keep personal commentary to a minimum (hard!) to let the facts speak for themselves.

Thanks for reading,
RC

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#70. To: angle (#44)

airport security,

Interesting point. I have the news from Phoenix on in the background, and the airport security goons at the Phoenix airport killed a woman from New York today..... only, this woman is CONNECTED, as in, WELL CONNECTED!

I think they went a step too far this time.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-01   0:01:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Zipporah (#51)

consider how much is being spent on them.. what it takes to maintain them.. feed the people who are interred ..it goes on and on...

You bet, Zip, just like the prisons as well, REALLY, REALLY BIG BUSINESS! Good to see you GET it! To hell with those like Ms. Clean who do not.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-01   0:03:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: richard9151 (#69)

Thanks, yeah, I have my own theories what this guy does when he is not posting of my own.

Thesis: Official 9/11 story is an unproven conspiracy theory. http://911truth.org http://Justicefor911.org http://summeroftruth.org Probable-cause standards have been met for an unlimited investigation of unsolved crimes relating to the events of Sept. 11, including allegations of criminal negligence, cover-up, complicity or commission of the attacks by US officials and assets of intel services.

Ferret Mike  posted on  2007-10-01   0:46:09 ET  (1 image) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: Ferret Mike (#37)

You are correct.

The United States incarcerates more per capita than any nation in the world, and the reason we do is simple: It's good business for the private prison industry, which absolutely owns the state legislatures through kickbacks in the form of political contributions. This privatization of prisons drives our current zeal for incarceration.

The political fuel comes primarily from the Republican party, which has as a fundamental strategem the criminalizing of millions of citizens for specious reasons, to keep down those who can and will vote for Democrats. The rate of incarceration is directly attributable to Reagan's war on drugs, which is, of course, a war to protect the legitimate drug industry while criminalizing under classes.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-01   10:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: richard9151 (#66)

What does your comment have to do with the deliberate changes made in immigration laws by the United States government starting in 1965? What does your comment have to do with the refusal of the United States government, over the last 40 years, to enforce the countless laws on the books about illegal aliens working within the US?

Well, if the detention camps aren't for illegal immigrants then they must be for citizens.

Unless they're for Martians.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-01   20:17:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: richard9151 (#68)

Really silly statement. First off, America is NOT about money; it was about credit. Two totally different subjects.

America has been and continues to be about money. Credit is just part of the bigger picture.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-01   20:23:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Mister Clean (#74)

Well, if the detention camps aren't for illegal immigrants then they must be for citizens.

I never said anything about that, one way or the other. What I did say, and I have posted the proof about it several times, is that the illegals are in the United States because it is the deliberate policy of the United States government to have them within the United States. And the United States government and the judicial system has seen to it that the states offer as many benefits as possible to the illegals to be sure that once they arrive, they stay.

Just as it is the deliberate policy of the United States government to move all manufacturing off shore, put the production of all food into a few strong hands (25 million family farms lost over the last 60 years), and now to outsource computer programming and all related work, and thus destroy the ability of the middle class in America and with that destruction, to limit the ability of the people of America to resist oppression.

And none of this would be possible if it were not for the dependence of America on using credit as a medium of exchange, instead of using money. So do not start with the non-sense about America has always been about money.

This is the result of credit, as used in the world today, as a medum of exchange;

Greenspan's Dark Legacy Unmasked

By Stephen Lendman

Already the top 1% owns 40% of global assets; the top 10% 85% of them; the top 1% in the US controls one-third of the nation's wealth; the bottom 80% just 15.3%; and the top 20% 84.7%. In contrast, the poorest 20% are in debt, owe more than they own, and it's getting worse.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-01   21:22:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: richard9151 (#76)

Just as it is the deliberate policy of the United States government to move all manufacturing off shore, put the production of all food into a few strong hands (25 million family farms lost over the last 60 years), and now to outsource computer programming and all related work, and thus destroy the ability of the middle class in America and with that destruction, to limit the ability of the people of America to resist oppression.

And none of this would be possible if it were not for the dependence of America on using credit as a medium of exchange, instead of using money. So do not start with the non-sense about America has always been about money.

Have you ever considered that not everything that happens is part of some sinister plot against the American people?

And when you talk about "dependence" on credit, does the concept of personal responsibility enter your mind?

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-01   21:32:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: Mister Clean (#77) (Edited)

Have you ever considered that not everything that happens is part of some sinister plot against the American people?

Since it never stops ... and they never fuck up in our favor ... no I think it's a sinister NWO plot. [No border fence after a kazillion terror alerts and 9-11 ... amnesty for TB riddled Mexican rapists, murderers and drug runners]. Dollar devalued by 50% in 5 years, mortgage foreclosures out the wazoo, jobs shipped overseas, unemployed, uneducated people imported in violation of the laws, people tasered to death on a regular basis ...

Geez, Clean ... you gotta be on prozac.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-01   21:35:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: noone222 (#78)

Since it never stops ... and they never fuck up in our favor ... no I think it's a sinister NWO plot.

The paranoid conspiracy theories never stop. That's for sure.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-01   21:36:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Mister Clean, robin, ziporah, Ferret Mike, , *Agriculture-Environment* (#77)

Have you ever considered that not everything that happens is part of some sinister plot against the American people?

That is fine, except that it ignores the facts of life, as revealed by such esteemed politicians as Benjamin Disrali, Franklin Roosevelt, Dwight Eisenhower and others too numerous to mention. In all cases, these men warned about the combination of powers in the government (whichever government you wish to pick), and always, they individually made the point that there is NEVER an accident in politics. What happens is what was intended to happen.

This is not hard to understand. If, over a period of time, a result occurs as a result of laws being passed, and this observed result is/was different that what was intended in the law when it was passed, then the law will be adjusted until the desired result is achieved. If, on the other hand, what occurs as a result of the law is/was the intneded result, then nothing is done and time drags on.

This is a fact of politics, and in various forms it has been commented on by politicians in many different times and governments.

Since, over a period of 60+ years, America has lost 25 million family farms, then this is the deliberate policy of the United States government, OR, something would have been changed to allivate the problems such farmers were having. And, there have been more than 100 books written about this subject which detail, in painful facts, exactly what is going on.

Since, over a period of 50+ years, America has lost the vast majority of its manufacturing, and it certainly has, then this is revealed as the deliberate policy of the United States government, and, it has nothing to do with eccology so do not go there.

Need I continue?

And when you talk about "dependence" on credit, does the concept of personal responsibility enter your mind?

Bullshit. When credit is the only form of an exchange medium that is permitted within the United States, then it is crass stupidity or delberate ignorance to make such a comment. There is no money in circulation within the United States. The only permitted medium of exchange comes from loans created from nothing by private, commercial banks, all of which are tied into the privately owned Federal Reserve. And since I have been writing and speaking on this subject for more than 20 years, I would not touch it more were I you.

As to why the problems are worse now, and why so many in America no longer have jobs that pay well, blame taxation. As revealed in Bill Clinton's Budget Report to Congress, the ACCUMLATIVE tax rate within the United States would exceed 85% in 2005.

What does that mean? It means that anything which originates within the United States (jurisdiction of) as a resource, and is turned into a product, that 85 cents out of every dollar of cost, is taxes.

And since this is revealed in the budget report of a president, it would be very foolish to make some comment about how all of this is simply an accident. Or, to act as if what is happening to the middle class in America is, somehow, not under the control of the government.

Anything else?

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-02   11:33:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: richard9151 (#80)

Since, over a period of 50+ years, America has lost the vast majority of its manufacturing, and it certainly has, then this is revealed as the deliberate policy of the United States government, and, it has nothing to do with eccology so do not go there.

Need I continue?

Nope.

You believe in conspiracy theories, I don't.

End of story.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-02   11:37:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: richard9151 (#80)

And since I have been writing and speaking on this subject for more than 20 years, I would not touch it more were I you.

Fine, I won't touch it.

Have a nice day!

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-02   11:38:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Mister Clean (#81)

You believe in conspiracy theories, I don't.

¿Who said anything about a conspiracy theory? I was discussing verifiable government policy. Things that the United States government has been consistently promoting (like illegal immigration) and/or taxing out of existance (such as manufacturing-family farming) over the last 60 years.

There you go, changing the subject again, and, it is obvious, because there is no answer to what I said.

See, this is the problem when you are a shill for an idea; when the real facts are put on the table, you can not answer, because there is no answer to the truth.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-02   14:04:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Mister Clean (#82)

Fine, I won't touch it.

See, this is the problem with someone such as yourself;

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

It is for people exactly like you that I use this tag line. Says most all that needs to be said about your posting in 4um.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-02   14:06:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: Zipporah, *libertarians* (#0)

ping

Why settle for the lesser of two evils, vote Cthulhu!

freepatriot32  posted on  2007-10-02   16:23:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Zipporah, RickyJ (#51)

Let's not forget that those "interned" would be a cheap source of labor, very similar to China's slave factory workers.

In fact, that could be the main goal, allowing major corporations to manufacture new goods here in the US for what they'd pay for labor in China, effectively nothing. They'd eliminate the shipping costs involved in getting those products from China over to here.


You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-10-02   17:17:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: FormerLurker (#86)

Let's not forget that those "interned" would be a cheap source of labor, very similar to China's slave factory workers.

Good point..

Zipporah  posted on  2007-10-02   18:19:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: Mister Clean (#77) (Edited)

Have you ever considered that not everything that happens is part of some sinister plot against the American people?

This country was blessed with more natural resources than any other country on earth. We have had some of the most inventive and resourceful people on the planet.

Accordingly, 80 years ago we were the world's #1 creditor nation.

Now we are the world's #1 debtor nation - by a HUGE margin - AND it's not just a small debt either. I don't think that swing could have happened by accident, it had to be planned.

Responsibility in credit is an oxymoron. Credit IS an irresponsible action. Credit is predicated upon usury (interest). Perhaps that is why God specifically told us in Scripture not to participate in usury, neither charge it NOR pay it.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-10-03   7:07:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Mister Clean (#81)

You believe in conspiracy theories, I don't.

What is your definition of conspiracy theory?

Diana  posted on  2007-10-03   7:12:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: FormerLurker, RickyJ (#86)

Let's not forget that those "interned" would be a cheap source of labor, very similar to China's slave factory workers.

In fact, that could be the main goal, allowing major corporations to manufacture new goods here in the US for what they'd pay for labor in China, effectively nothing. They'd eliminate the shipping costs involved in getting those products from China over to here.

I have thought that is a real possibility since those who rule us see us as their property.

Diana  posted on  2007-10-03   7:18:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: Diana (#89)

What is your definition of conspiracy theory?

It must be "anything that runs contrary to the facts as reported on FOX news".

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-10-03   7:19:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: richard9151, Mister Clean (#83) (Edited)

See, this is the problem when you are a shill for an idea; when the real facts are put on the table, you can not answer, because there is no answer to the truth.

Mister Clean is either a Zionist agitprop plant or a suckpoop goy promoting Jewish supremacy.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2007-10-03   7:36:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: innieway (#88)

The "Congress" and some "thing" called the "Federeal Reserve Bank" started up a "Cafe" in 1913 that serves Shit Sandwiches 3 times a day to Americans willing to pay top dollar. Some indigestion is to be expected !

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-03   8:25:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: noone222 (#93)

The "Congress" and some "thing" called the "Federeal Reserve Bank" started up a "Cafe" in 1913 that serves Shit Sandwiches 3 times a day to Americans willing to pay top dollar. Some indigestion is to be expected !

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

I think that indigestion has morphed into full-blown diarrhea complete with doubling-over-in-pain stomach cramps and puking. And I get the feeling this isn't one of those 24-hour "bugs" either...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-10-03   8:55:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Zoroaster (#92)

Mister Clean is either a Zionist agitprop plant or a suckpoop goy promoting Jewish supremacy.

You're just intimidated by Jews.

Sucks to be you.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   9:46:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: innieway (#88)

Now we are the world's #1 debtor nation - by a HUGE margin - AND it's not just a small debt either. I don't think that swing could have happened by accident, it had to be planned.

Responsibility in credit is an oxymoron. Credit IS an irresponsible action. Credit is predicated upon usury (interest). Perhaps that is why God specifically told us in Scripture not to participate in usury, neither charge it NOR pay it.

Sounds to me that believing that certain things are "planned" is your way of coping with things you can't fully understand.

Second, anyone who choses to use credit must accept the consequences of their choice. That is what personal responsibility is all about. I use credit cards all the time but I pay them off before a single penny is charged in interest.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   9:50:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Diana (#89)

What is your definition of conspiracy theory?

I like Wikipedia's definition:

A conspiracy theory usually explains the ultimate cause of an event or chain of events (usually political, social, pop cultural or historical events), or the concealment of such causes from public knowledge, to a secret, and often deceptive plot by a covert alliance of powerful or influential people or organizations. Many conspiracy theories imply that major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   9:51:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: Zoroaster (#92)

Mister Clean is either a Zionist agitprop plant or a suckpoop goy promoting Jewish supremacy.

My take as well, BUT, it is fun backing him into a corner where he has no answers!

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:22:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: Mister Clean (#95)

You're just intimidated by Jews.

That's funny!!! LOLLOL!! I have yet to see the major players/posters in 4um back off of the truth because of fear OR intimidation!

In fact, this is one of the few places where the facts, the real facts, about the holohoax and Jewish/Khazarian history are OPENLY posted and talked about.

Now, you want to run that intimidated by thieves line past me one more time?

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:25:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: richard9151 (#99)

In fact, this is one of the few places where the facts, the real facts, about the holohoax and Jewish/Khazarian history are OPENLY posted and talked about.

Yes by people who are not only intimidated by Jews but who also have deep feelings of inadequacy about themselves over Jewish success.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   10:29:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: Mister Clean (#97)

A conspiracy theory usually explains the ultimate cause of an event or chain of events (usually political, social, pop cultural or historical events), or the concealment of such causes from public knowledge, to a secret, and often deceptive plot by a covert alliance of powerful or influential people or organizations. Many conspiracy theories imply that major events in history have been dominated by conspirators who manipulate political happenings from behind the scenes.

Good definition, and follows closely with what we have been told by such people as Benjamin Disrali and others.

Does not change what I said before; I was talking about VERIFIABLE government policy over the last 60 years, of which there have been countless books written. About the loss of manufacturing, about the loss of family farming, about the loss of the middle class in America.

Now, if YOU want to define that as conspiracy, by all means, be my guest. My point is simply that these things can not occur, and would not occur, unless there were deliberate actions taken by the United States government to force these changes on America, and, the public record supports what I am saying.

Would you care to have a few references of books that have been written about the subjects, showing the deliberate nature of what is going on? I own a few, so no problem, esp. about the farming loss.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:32:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: richard9151 (#101)

Would you care to have a few references of books that have been written about the subjects, showing the deliberate nature of what is going on?

Nope.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   10:34:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Mister Clean (#100)

Yes by people who are not only intimidated by Jews but who also have deep feelings of inadequacy about themselves over Jewish success.

Success? What success? Are you inferring that the Jews control the world, and that somehow this is something to be..... what? Copied? Is that the success that you mean? Or, do you mean the Jews who hide amoung the Goy so that people will not know why they are successful?

Ot perhaps you are referring to the hiding of such things as the Kol Nidre, so people never know that the word of a Jew is worthless? Is that the kind of successful that you are referring to? Hiding duplicity?

Or are you referring to the insatiable hunger of the Jew for gold/power, so that no matter how much he has, it is never enough? Do you consider that 'a success?'

Or perhaps it is the Jews absorption with the Talmud and its filth. Perhaps this is the 'success' you so highly tout.

I know a lot of successful people. They have loving families, a home, and good friends. Most of these people have no debt, and come from various back grounds, including fishermen, teachers, construction workers, and etc. They belong to a number of different churches, with the exception that none of them are Talmud worshippers. The defining difference between what you call success and what I know to be success, is that the people I know are content. They are happy. They understand that when they die, they can not take 'it' with them, and it is more important to live happily here, with respect and love for others, than to hunger for moremoremoremoremore always.

I had what you call success, and I walked away from it, and would do so again. There is no other way to be successful in this life, for the very short time that we are on this earth, than to forsake the lure of crimes-to-be-rich. And instead, to live a life of contentment, with a good woman, trying to respect others, and learn all that is possible to learn about God. And what He disires for us and from us.

Now, I am quite sure we are never going to agree about any of this, so please, do not bother to answer.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:48:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Mister Clean (#102)

Nope.

Didn't think so. Read my tag line again, please.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:49:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: Mister Clean, innieway (#96)

Sounds to me that believing that certain things are "planned" is your way of coping with things you can't fully understand.

Oh, I assure you, of the people in 4um, innieway understands as well as anyone. Better than most; better than most in the entire world. Probably better than you do, of that I have no doubt.

When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.

richard9151  posted on  2007-10-03   10:51:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: richard9151 (#103)

Now, I am quite sure we are never going to agree about any of this, so please, do not bother to answer.

I won't.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-03   10:54:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: Mister Clean (#100)

Yes by people who are not only intimidated by Jews but who also have deep feelings of inadequacy about themselves over Jewish success.

I have no "feeling of inadequacy" about myself, and I'm CERTAINLY not intimidated by Jews. Jews' biggest "successes" are lying and stealing - proof to any serious student of Scripture of their true identity as Edomites. They are sons of "That Man of Perdition". That's why they're so big on "hate crime laws", they don't want people to discover that they in fact are the ONLY group which are HATED by God. If I were hated by God, I would want laws passed making it "illegal" to hate somebody...

Jews are for the most part bankers, lawyers, or doctors. NONE of these "groups" of people produce anything, they do nothing but suck the lifeblood from a nation. They are parasites feeding upon a host.

The holocaust is one of the biggest hoaxes perpetrated to date by this group of parasites (and I can mathematically PROVE it to be a hoax). They "needed" it to be able to move an indigenous people out of their land and in effect steal it - and that's exactly what has happened.

Jews are criminals of the highest order, and the world would be a better place if it was rid of them.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-10-04   8:17:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: Mister Clean (#96)

anyone who choses to use credit must accept the consequences of their choice. That is what personal responsibility is all about. I use credit cards all the time but I pay them off before a single penny is charged in interest.

OK. You pay off your credit cards. Do you have auto insurance? Do you have homeowner's insurance? Do you have health insurance? If you can answer yes to any of these questions then you are demonstrating PERSONAL IRRESPONSIBILITY.

Insurance is for those that DON'T want to be personally responsible. If you get into a car wreck, your insurance company is RESPONSIBLE for paying the damages. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY would be paying those damages out of your own pocket.
If your roof is damaged by a hailstorm the insurance company is RESPONSIBLE for paying the damages. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY would be paying out of your own pocket for the roof to be fixed.
If you wind up so sick you need to go to the hospital the insurance company is RESPONSIBLE for the cost. PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY would be to follow the food and health laws laid out by the Creator in Scripture so you don't get sick in the first place.

Reason, logic, and common sense dictate to me that there is no way a nation blessed with the most abundant natural resources and the most resourceful people on planet earth could go from being the world's RICHEST nation to the world's POOREST nation in 80 years by accident. Reason, logic, and common sense are things which apparently allude you. And I fully understand one thing - I wouldn't trade places with you or want to be in your shoes for ANYTHING.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-10-04   8:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: innieway (#108)

Reason, logic, and common sense dictate to me that there is no way a nation blessed with the most abundant natural resources and the most resourceful people on planet earth could go from being the world's RICHEST nation to the world's POOREST nation in 80 years by accident.

So you think America is the world's poorest nation?

Have you ever been out of the US? Ever seen 3rd world poverty in person.

If you think America has become the world's poorest nation, you deserve an award for being so ignorant.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-04   20:17:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: innieway (#107)

Jews are criminals of the highest order, and the world would be a better place if it was rid of them.

You're pathetic.

Mister Clean  posted on  2007-10-04   20:18:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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