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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Are Ed and Elaine Brown Dead?
Source: Keene Free Press
URL Source: http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo ... ent&task=view&id=630&Itemid=36
Published: Oct 6, 2007
Author: Kat Kanning
Post Date: 2007-10-07 12:39:01 by JiminyC
Keywords: None
Views: 3004
Comments: 258

Are Ed and Elaine Brown dead? We don't know - the government won't tell where they are, so we cannot verify their condition. If Ed and Elaine had been hurt during their arrest, it would be in the government's interest to withhold this information, since they obviously fear a violent reaction to the arrest from Brown supporters. Until the government chooses to divulge information on the Brown's whereabouts, we will be unable to verify their condition and will have to assume the worst.

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At least it seems there were a few wolves in sheep's clothing hanging around the Browns.

in light of how it ended, i'd say that's pretty a safe assumption.

christine  posted on  2007-10-08   11:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They have the source coming from Brown himself RS. Perhaps your right, is there anyplace where the Browns deny making these threats? If so I'd like to view it. Thanks

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   11:54:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wouldn't something like that also effect the infiltrators who were there to make the arrest? I like Derry, but that kind of speculation isn't especially helpful, IMO.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They have the source coming from Brown himself RS.

I know, but I think if we look more carefully at how it was worded, Ed was merely REPEATING what he'd been told by alleged supporters, who may or may not have been federal agents.

I'm not saying he handled the situation well, just that we can have no idea how we'd personally handle a similar situation and therefore, I'll withhold judgement.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   12:00:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

in light of how it ended, i'd say that's pretty a safe assumption.

Infiltration is the name of the game. And we all know who always wins that game.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   12:01:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So are you saying these people didn't exist? Or that they just weren't harmed by the British? Are we supposed to believe the run-up to the revolution was sterile and passive? What?

1. I am not saying they did or did not exist, and at this point in life, I'm not planning to do much, if any, research, about it. I merely noted that a few years back there was this, or a similar article/story/whatever, that came to the public's attention. And many noted/notorious people jumped on the bandwagon on reporting that our Founders gave their all.

2. I cannot remember the details of who did what, when, or where, or even why.....nor do I much give a shit--with your attitude, who gives a damn anyways. I was/am hopeful someone else might remember more details than I did. I'm sure Buchanan was one who talked about the fates these honorable men met, or allegedly met.

3. It turned out that it was not the case; that for all the detailed stories that were given out were simply not factual. I cannot remember who did the researching to come to this.......and again, I don't much give a shit. My respect for the Founders doesn't go to how they died, or by whose hand.

4. You can believe whatever you want to about the run=up to the revolution being sterile or unsanitary or passive or impassive........or as you say, 'what'.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   12:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ed was merely REPEATING what he'd been told by alleged supporters, who may or may not have been federal agents.

I dunno, according this they have him on a radio broadcast making the threats. It's going to be pretty hard to defend it, and from what I read they are going to be brining more charges against them.

Anyways, Source and quotes as follows.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/ap...E/710060355/0/COMMUNITY01

Instead, this turned ugly, with violence and doom on the horizon. Early on, Ed Brown said this could turn into another Waco if authorities pushed things too far.

In a sense, war was declared by the Browns. Their friends and supporters brought high-powered rifles to their fortress. The Browns vowed never to be taken alive, saying they'd leave their home only as free people or in body bags.

And then there was the harsh rhetoric directed toward Judge Steven McAuliffe, who presided over the Browns' tax evasion trial.

The Browns and their supporters have said that McAuliffe is the criminal. McAuliffe took himself off the cases of two men charged with helping the Browns. He said threats made against him could lead some to question his impartiality. U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier would not confirm yesterday whether McAuliffe received heightened security.

But that would be a reasonable assumption. Here's why:

"This is a warning," Ed Brown said in a February radio broadcast. "Once this thing starts, we're going to seek them out and hunt them down. And we're going to bring them to justice. So anybody who wishes to join them, you go right ahead and join them. But I promise you, long after I'm gone, they're going to seek out every one of you and your bloodline."

In a video posted later that month, Brown cited McAuliffe again. "I wouldn't want to be this judge or these other people. . . . Their names are already out there," Brown said. "They are just as vulnerable as I am. And if they're so foolish and stupid to think that they're not, hey, doom on them."

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   12:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks, Japedo..........I couldn't and still can't remember all the details at the time this was happening. Just one of those 'things' that stick in your mind for some goofball reason.

This "Sometimers" disease really irritates me at times.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   13:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

My respect for the Founders doesn't go to how they died, or by whose hand.

So, short of not giving a shit about who said or did what before, during or after the revolution, what is it that you respect about the founders ... keeping in mind that only survivors ended up being founders. The ones who died fighting it were just dead.

Luckily, its not of earth shattering importance to me whether or not you like my attitude, it works just fine for me.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   13:07:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

For those of us who still cling to the past, I'd venture to say, presently, the towns of Concord and Lexington couldn't muster enough folks for a Sunday picnic never mind an anti-government militia. This beast system is safe as far as I can see.

My brother hired a young man, 25 years of age, a couple of years back, that was from the Concord - Lexington area. He couldn't even tell my brother a thing about what happened there--all Pete could say was something like 'some important battle happened there, maybe a really big one'.

The guy's Dad was involved with local government there, so it wasn't a case of just born there and moving off. He grew up there.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   13:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

But I promise you, long after I'm gone, they're going to seek out every one of you and your bloodline."

Lets just take this one little quote ... if he's speaking of "after he's gone" and "they're" going to be seeking out the attackers, he's obviously speaking of someone besides himself. I wonder who the "they" are that he's referring to. I wonder who gave him that assurance. He was probably a huge fool for believing them, anyway.

Not casting any aspersions, of course, but here's only one group of people I can think of that thrives on blood vengence.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   13:14:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

My brother hired a young man, 25 years of age, a couple of years back, that was from the Concord - Lexington area. He couldn't even tell my brother a thing about what happened there--all Pete could say was something like 'some important battle happened there, maybe a really big one'.

The dumbing-down is wildly successful, I'd say.

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-10-08   13:16:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Brown is dumb for talking that way. It's just as well that he has been taken away to begin his prison sentence. Add that to being holed up, and the comments about not being taken alive. A real jerk. Elaine must have been the brains of that outfit.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   13:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I wonder who the "they" are that he's referring to. I wonder who gave him that assurance. He was probably a huge fool for believing them, anyway.

I'm not sure who's behind it. I guess we'll all have to wait for evidence or lack there of in court after the charges are brought. I'm just saying it was said and he was advocating bloodshed at that point.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   13:19:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This isn't America and the people enforcing the rules have no rules.

On this, I agree.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   13:20:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I guess we'll all have to wait for evidence or lack there of in court after the charges are brought.

Charges against whom? Evidence of what? If those promises were made by fake supporters to make the Browns look like whackos ... why would they publicly admit to being fakes?

Remember? That whacko Koresh was raping the babies. And remember? Saddam's whacko troops were throwing babies out of incubators. Want me to go on?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   13:28:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A real jerk.

I suspect you would have been a "Torie" way back.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   13:28:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're right, I don't disagree with your original post in the least. I do disagree with several things in this latest post though, but am not interested in addressing them here. The point I'd like to make above all is that the system itself is never inconvenienced even when it is stampeding rough shod over innocent people that are trying to comply with a set of policies that the policy makers themselves are unable to comprehend.

The system employed today does not meet the standards of lawful application that were etched into the constitution, and the responses from agencies responsible for implementing or enforcing the policies are non-existent except when litigated wherein no one knows any more after litigation than they did prior to it.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-08   13:39:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

harges against whom? Evidence of what? If those promises were made by fake supporters to make the Browns look like whackos ... why would they publicly admit to being fakes?

RS, Are you insinuating that someone put a gun to his head and made him make the threats on radio and to journalists? That this is a conspiracy to discredit him? He himself made the claims and I have yet to hear anything about him denying the claims or about the claims being a form of misunderstanding. He openly advocated the death of officials and even went so far to name them and their family's. I don't care who said what to him, It's also a crime among the many he's committed.

*IF* as you say someone convinced him this was the case, that will come out in the trial is all I'm saying. How do you know they were 'fake' supporters? Being on many political boards, I can say without a doubt there are quite a few who are chomping at the bit to over throw the government in a blood bath. I don't think the government needs to put plants in to make this case known.

Most times I'm on the side of questioning authority, 911, this war, much of the police abuse and so on. Both Ruby ridge and Waco are atrocity's in the highest form, I will even concede that point and also wish to hold the authority's accountable. This case however I'm not willing to defend the Browns. They broke the law, went to court were found guilty. The Browns have done things that are blatantly against the law. They encouraged bloodshed and refused to follow the law at any time throughout this debacle. They believe themselves above the law and were attempting to become martyrs hoping and trying to bait a public suicide by cop. I will not discredit myself or important causes by attaching myself to him. He is an example of what NOT to do to make a point.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   13:45:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If speaking the truth makes me a 'torie', big woohooo. Now that he has lost it all, including the likelihood of never seeing his wife again, I should have said JERK, not just jerk.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist, nor a patriot if prefer, to realize that he doesn't have the $$$$$$, the lawyers, or guns, nor time that gubmint has. Threatening a judge or his kids is about as STUPID as one can get, unless, of course, he actually tries to carry such folly out.

Sugarcoat it all you wish, angle, the guy is a JERK, or jerk, or

jerk

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   14:02:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I am not at all claiming anyone put a gun to his head to get him to say those things, I'm saying he was obviously assured these things would be done by someone(s) else and like a stupid fool, he believed and repeated it. He said if the feds killed him, un-named others would kill the feds (and their kin). Truthfully, what he said sounds more hysterical than calculated to me and I'm willing to acknowledge that people have breaking points and often say/do stupid things under intense pressure. I'm simply asking who those others were who were supposed to be doing all the revenge killing and suggesting that we'll never know.

So again I ask, what trial? Do you think they're going to go after the genuine supporters? I suppose that could very well happen, but the Browns have already been convicted of breaking a law the feds were more interested in punishing than in producing any justification for. Others have been acquitted of similar charges, so like they kept asking before the whole thing went ape shit ... where's the law?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:08:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So again I ask, what trial? Do you think they're going to go after the genuine supporters? I suppose that could very well happen, but the Browns have already been convicted of breaking a law the feds were more interested in punishing than in producing any justification for.

As I said, it's been reported that they will be facing more charges. Link and excerpt below.

www.concordmonitor.com/ap...71007/FRONTPAGE/710070323

But Ed and Elaine Brown's story is far from over. The Plainfield tax protesters, who promised their followers an apocalyptic shootout with marshals and were instead arrested quietly Thursday, will likely face a raft of new charges and see many of their key supporters prosecuted, said experts who have watched the case.

On Friday, U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier said the Browns were in transit to federal prisons where they would begin serving 63-month sentences for tax-related charges. They were convicted in January of conspiring to hide Elaine Brown's dental income from authorities, but managed to avoid serving time for nearly nine months, as they rallied antigovernment support and holed up in their well-equipped home.

So far, the Browns have faced no legal sanctions for their behavior, which included issuing explicit threats against judges, prosecutors and local law enforcement figures, stockpiling weapons, and assembling a barrage of improvised explosives devices, according to court documents and statements from Monier. But in a press briefing Friday, Monier suggested that the Browns will face new charges for that conduct.

"Unfortunately, the Browns have turned this into more than just a tax case," Monier said. "By their continuing actions, allegedly, to obstruct justice, to encourage others to assist them to obstruct justice, by making threats toward law enforcement and other government officials, they have turned this into more than a tax case."

Several experts who watch the tax protest movement said the Browns could face a range of new charges, including conspiring to impede the marshals, illegal weapons possessions, criminal threatening, obstruction of justice and possession of explosives.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   14:15:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Speaking the "truth"?

C'mon now. It's merely your opinion, your perspective. And I say your perspective is that of a gubmint apologist and supporter. Picking on Ed Brown whilst BushCheneyInc are murdering and stealing in the name of your country? Puhleeze spare me your righteous indignation about what a "jerk" Ed Brown is for trying to resist tyranny as he sees it.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They broke the law, went to court were found guilty.

What friggin law?

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:16:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're right, I don't disagree with your original post in the least. I do disagree with several things in this latest post though, but am not interested in addressing them here. The point I'd like to make above all is that the system itself is never inconvenienced even when it is stampeding rough shod over innocent people that are trying to comply with a set of policies that the policy makers themselves are unable to comprehend.

The system employed today does not meet the standards of lawful application that were etched into the constitution, and the responses from agencies responsible for implementing or enforcing the policies are non-existent except when litigated wherein no one knows any more after litigation than they did prior to it.

I agree with your post.

We are being ruled by people who do whatever they want, and they justify it by criminalizing any who disagree. If someone asks a police officer why he's tasing another person, the questioner is not merely a citizen concerned about police abuse. He's a criminal interfering with an officer while said officer is making an arrest, probably for convulsing without a license.

Nowhere is this more prevalent than with the IRS when they target a person they consider a tax protestor.

The problem is that the public in general doesn't like the IRS or paying the income tax, but they also don't like it when someone else ignores the system they feel bound to follow. For this reason, tax protestors do not have widespread support. They have a very narrow vein of support, and that is only among those who understand the arguments made.

I think only by redirecting the populace away from the current system, and towards either a flat tax or a federal sales tax can we hope to end the current system. You can't do it with anything less than strong popular support. That means we need an idea that is so strong, it overwhelms the corporate lackeys who create, regulate and enforce the current tax system.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Okay, I missed that. So they're probably in for life now. Gotta make EXAMPLES of them to scare the rest of the population into greater leaps of faithful and voluntary compliance.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well the law about Tax evasion for starters, of which they were found guilty for. They hid a large some of money to avoid paying the tax on it.

Free advice here: http://law.freeadvice.com/tax_la...e_tax_law/tax_evasion.htm

What is the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance?

The courts recognize the fact that no taxpayer is obliged to arrange his/her affairs so as to maximize the tax the government receives. Individuals and businesses are entitled to take all lawful steps to minimize their taxes.

A taxpayer may lawfully arrange his/her affairs to minimize taxes by such steps as deferring income from one year to the next. (For example, interest on property sold on 12/31/98 is taxable as part of 98 income. If the property is sold on 1/1/99, it would be taxable as part of 99 income. This is legal to do.) It is lawful to take all available tax deductions. It is also lawful to avoid taxes by making charitable contributions.

Tax evasion, on the other hand, is a crime. Tax evasion typically involves failing to report income, or improperly claiming deductions that are not authorized. Examples of tax evasion include such actions as when a contractor "forgets" to report the $10,000 cash he receives for building a pool, or when a business owner tries to deduct $100,000 of personal expenses from his business taxes, or when a person falsely claims she made charitable contributions, or significantly overestimates the value of property donated to charity. Similarly, if an estate is worth $5 million and the executor files a false tax return, improperly omitting property and claiming the estate is only worth $100,000, thus owing much less in taxes.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   14:27:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem is that the public in general doesn't like the IRS or paying the income tax, but they also don't like it when someone else ignores the system they feel bound to follow. For this reason, tax protestors do not have widespread support. They have a very narrow vein of support, and that is only among those who understand the arguments made.

I think only by redirecting the populace away from the current system, and towards either a flat tax or a federal sales tax can we hope to end the current system. You can't do it with anything less than strong popular support. That means we need an idea that is so strong, it overwhelms the corporate lackeys who create, regulate and enforce the current tax system.

Your first paragraph perfectly defines the phrase, "we are our own worst enemy".

To the second paragraph I would point out the huge percentage of the populace that wants to end the war, and the huge percentage of the populace that wants a new investigation into 9/11. How's that working so far?

You'll never overwhelm the corporate lackeys as long as every single thing we and they do and own is denominated in the fed's privately owned money factory (you and the lackeys only borrow dollars from the real owners).

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"This is a warning," Ed Brown said in a February radio broadcast. "Once this thing starts, we're going to seek them out and hunt them down. And we're going to bring them to justice. So anybody who wishes to join them, you go right ahead and join them. But I promise you, long after I'm gone, they're going to seek out every one of you and your bloodline."

In a video posted later that month, Brown cited McAuliffe again. "I wouldn't want to be this judge or these other people. . . . Their names are already out there," Brown said. "They are just as vulnerable as I am. And if they're so foolish and stupid to think that they're not, hey, doom on them."

Thanks for posting that.

I was not aware Brown had said such things.

I am always going to take the approach that the law should be followed, and if you wish to challenge that law, do so in the systems set up for it - the judicial and political systems. I'm a lawyer, and I'm always going to advise people to follow the law, and the law is what the enforcers say the law is, unless YOU can disprove them. Not just IRS law, all law.

I can challenge laws in courts, in the political arena and in the public dialogue. I do all three, and they are the paths our country finds acceptable.

If others want to practice civil disobedience, that is their path, not mine.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:39:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't I already tell you to blow me? Buzz off, I'm talking to people who understand words and sentences when they read them.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:41:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm a lawyer, for Christ Sakes!

LOL, I wonder how Christ would feel about you lawyering for his sake. He'd probably tell you that you're only doing it for money's sake and lightning would strike you.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:45:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jesus was a myth. Sorry.

Santa and the Easter Bunny, too.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:48:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't I already tell you to blow me? Buzz off, I'm talking to people who understand words and sentences when they read them.

In your dreams, buddy.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:48:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

do so in the systems set up for it - the judicial and political systems

the corrupt rotten systems...riiiight.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

blah blah blah blah

The law is only for those who don't have a lawyer to buy their way out of it. The application of "law" is morally bankrupt and corrupt.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the corrupt rotten systems...riiiight.

I'm not enamored of choices that include civil disobedience or violence. You don't have to like reality to know what it is.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:54:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm a lawyer, for Christ Sakes!

Well, I guess he told you. You are not worthy to even post to him, let alone disagree with the opinion of a "lawyer". He's right, you're wrong, end of story. (sic)

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:55:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jesus was a myth. Sorry.

Santa and the Easter Bunny, too.

If I had my choice of myths, I'd surely put lawyers in that catagory and make Santa real.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:00:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He's right, you're wrong, end of story. (sic)

Two lawyers are like a pair of sissors. The two sides can snip away all day long and never hurt each other while chopping whatever gets between them into shreds. ;)

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:02:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem you and I both have on this thread is the nature of those who argue against us. They do not argue from knowledge, but from emotion. It is analogous to arguing with a person who believes the Bible, or the Quran, or some other religious text is the answer to all questions. Because that person will only accept the world as viewed through their favored prism, you cannot argue with them using logic, facts, or reasons.

We are talking to people who think the law of the land is whatever misperception they have about what someone intended 100 years ago, or 220 years ago. Some guy thinks he knows what the founding fathers intended, and he's confident that interpretation is the one. Some guy thinks he knows what the income tax amendment means.

You and I deal in the reality of America today, not what we wish it would be. That is what separates us from several posters on this thread. To them. it's a holy war, and unless we sign on for their largely meaningless talk, we're not patriots to the cause.

I consider most of what I read on a thread like this to be no different from the ignorant grousing one might hear at the end of a bar, the ranting without purpose and idle threats towards the government. Talking big with no intention of ever acting on it.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:05:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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