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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Are Ed and Elaine Brown Dead?
Source: Keene Free Press
URL Source: http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo ... ent&task=view&id=630&Itemid=36
Published: Oct 6, 2007
Author: Kat Kanning
Post Date: 2007-10-07 12:39:01 by JiminyC
Keywords: None
Views: 3207
Comments: 258

Are Ed and Elaine Brown dead? We don't know - the government won't tell where they are, so we cannot verify their condition. If Ed and Elaine had been hurt during their arrest, it would be in the government's interest to withhold this information, since they obviously fear a violent reaction to the arrest from Brown supporters. Until the government chooses to divulge information on the Brown's whereabouts, we will be unable to verify their condition and will have to assume the worst.

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Speaking the "truth"?

C'mon now. It's merely your opinion, your perspective. And I say your perspective is that of a gubmint apologist and supporter. Picking on Ed Brown whilst BushCheneyInc are murdering and stealing in the name of your country? Puhleeze spare me your righteous indignation about what a "jerk" Ed Brown is for trying to resist tyranny as he sees it.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:15:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They broke the law, went to court were found guilty.

What friggin law?

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:16:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You're right, I don't disagree with your original post in the least. I do disagree with several things in this latest post though, but am not interested in addressing them here. The point I'd like to make above all is that the system itself is never inconvenienced even when it is stampeding rough shod over innocent people that are trying to comply with a set of policies that the policy makers themselves are unable to comprehend.

The system employed today does not meet the standards of lawful application that were etched into the constitution, and the responses from agencies responsible for implementing or enforcing the policies are non-existent except when litigated wherein no one knows any more after litigation than they did prior to it.

I agree with your post.

We are being ruled by people who do whatever they want, and they justify it by criminalizing any who disagree. If someone asks a police officer why he's tasing another person, the questioner is not merely a citizen concerned about police abuse. He's a criminal interfering with an officer while said officer is making an arrest, probably for convulsing without a license.

Nowhere is this more prevalent than with the IRS when they target a person they consider a tax protestor.

The problem is that the public in general doesn't like the IRS or paying the income tax, but they also don't like it when someone else ignores the system they feel bound to follow. For this reason, tax protestors do not have widespread support. They have a very narrow vein of support, and that is only among those who understand the arguments made.

I think only by redirecting the populace away from the current system, and towards either a flat tax or a federal sales tax can we hope to end the current system. You can't do it with anything less than strong popular support. That means we need an idea that is so strong, it overwhelms the corporate lackeys who create, regulate and enforce the current tax system.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:25:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Okay, I missed that. So they're probably in for life now. Gotta make EXAMPLES of them to scare the rest of the population into greater leaps of faithful and voluntary compliance.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:26:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well the law about Tax evasion for starters, of which they were found guilty for. They hid a large some of money to avoid paying the tax on it.

Free advice here: http://law.freeadvice.com/tax_la...e_tax_law/tax_evasion.htm

What is the difference between tax evasion and tax avoidance?

The courts recognize the fact that no taxpayer is obliged to arrange his/her affairs so as to maximize the tax the government receives. Individuals and businesses are entitled to take all lawful steps to minimize their taxes.

A taxpayer may lawfully arrange his/her affairs to minimize taxes by such steps as deferring income from one year to the next. (For example, interest on property sold on 12/31/98 is taxable as part of 98 income. If the property is sold on 1/1/99, it would be taxable as part of 99 income. This is legal to do.) It is lawful to take all available tax deductions. It is also lawful to avoid taxes by making charitable contributions.

Tax evasion, on the other hand, is a crime. Tax evasion typically involves failing to report income, or improperly claiming deductions that are not authorized. Examples of tax evasion include such actions as when a contractor "forgets" to report the $10,000 cash he receives for building a pool, or when a business owner tries to deduct $100,000 of personal expenses from his business taxes, or when a person falsely claims she made charitable contributions, or significantly overestimates the value of property donated to charity. Similarly, if an estate is worth $5 million and the executor files a false tax return, improperly omitting property and claiming the estate is only worth $100,000, thus owing much less in taxes.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   14:27:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem is that the public in general doesn't like the IRS or paying the income tax, but they also don't like it when someone else ignores the system they feel bound to follow. For this reason, tax protestors do not have widespread support. They have a very narrow vein of support, and that is only among those who understand the arguments made.

I think only by redirecting the populace away from the current system, and towards either a flat tax or a federal sales tax can we hope to end the current system. You can't do it with anything less than strong popular support. That means we need an idea that is so strong, it overwhelms the corporate lackeys who create, regulate and enforce the current tax system.

Your first paragraph perfectly defines the phrase, "we are our own worst enemy".

To the second paragraph I would point out the huge percentage of the populace that wants to end the war, and the huge percentage of the populace that wants a new investigation into 9/11. How's that working so far?

You'll never overwhelm the corporate lackeys as long as every single thing we and they do and own is denominated in the fed's privately owned money factory (you and the lackeys only borrow dollars from the real owners).

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:37:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"This is a warning," Ed Brown said in a February radio broadcast. "Once this thing starts, we're going to seek them out and hunt them down. And we're going to bring them to justice. So anybody who wishes to join them, you go right ahead and join them. But I promise you, long after I'm gone, they're going to seek out every one of you and your bloodline."

In a video posted later that month, Brown cited McAuliffe again. "I wouldn't want to be this judge or these other people. . . . Their names are already out there," Brown said. "They are just as vulnerable as I am. And if they're so foolish and stupid to think that they're not, hey, doom on them."

Thanks for posting that.

I was not aware Brown had said such things.

I am always going to take the approach that the law should be followed, and if you wish to challenge that law, do so in the systems set up for it - the judicial and political systems. I'm a lawyer, and I'm always going to advise people to follow the law, and the law is what the enforcers say the law is, unless YOU can disprove them. Not just IRS law, all law.

I can challenge laws in courts, in the political arena and in the public dialogue. I do all three, and they are the paths our country finds acceptable.

If others want to practice civil disobedience, that is their path, not mine.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:39:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't I already tell you to blow me? Buzz off, I'm talking to people who understand words and sentences when they read them.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:41:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm a lawyer, for Christ Sakes!

LOL, I wonder how Christ would feel about you lawyering for his sake. He'd probably tell you that you're only doing it for money's sake and lightning would strike you.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:45:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jesus was a myth. Sorry.

Santa and the Easter Bunny, too.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:48:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Didn't I already tell you to blow me? Buzz off, I'm talking to people who understand words and sentences when they read them.

In your dreams, buddy.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   14:48:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

do so in the systems set up for it - the judicial and political systems

the corrupt rotten systems...riiiight.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:50:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

blah blah blah blah

The law is only for those who don't have a lawyer to buy their way out of it. The application of "law" is morally bankrupt and corrupt.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:52:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

the corrupt rotten systems...riiiight.

I'm not enamored of choices that include civil disobedience or violence. You don't have to like reality to know what it is.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   14:54:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm a lawyer, for Christ Sakes!

Well, I guess he told you. You are not worthy to even post to him, let alone disagree with the opinion of a "lawyer". He's right, you're wrong, end of story. (sic)

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   14:55:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Jesus was a myth. Sorry.

Santa and the Easter Bunny, too.

If I had my choice of myths, I'd surely put lawyers in that catagory and make Santa real.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:00:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

He's right, you're wrong, end of story. (sic)

Two lawyers are like a pair of sissors. The two sides can snip away all day long and never hurt each other while chopping whatever gets between them into shreds. ;)

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:02:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem you and I both have on this thread is the nature of those who argue against us. They do not argue from knowledge, but from emotion. It is analogous to arguing with a person who believes the Bible, or the Quran, or some other religious text is the answer to all questions. Because that person will only accept the world as viewed through their favored prism, you cannot argue with them using logic, facts, or reasons.

We are talking to people who think the law of the land is whatever misperception they have about what someone intended 100 years ago, or 220 years ago. Some guy thinks he knows what the founding fathers intended, and he's confident that interpretation is the one. Some guy thinks he knows what the income tax amendment means.

You and I deal in the reality of America today, not what we wish it would be. That is what separates us from several posters on this thread. To them. it's a holy war, and unless we sign on for their largely meaningless talk, we're not patriots to the cause.

I consider most of what I read on a thread like this to be no different from the ignorant grousing one might hear at the end of a bar, the ranting without purpose and idle threats towards the government. Talking big with no intention of ever acting on it.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:05:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well, I guess he told you. You are not worthy to even post to him, let alone disagree with the opinion of a "lawyer". He's right, you're wrong, end of story. (sic)

I wasn't talking to him. I was talking to someone with whom I agreed.

What the matter? Did some big bad lawyer spank your behind some time?

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:08:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You and I deal in the reality of America today, not what we wish it would be.

If wishes were horses, beggars would ride.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:09:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If I had my choice of myths, I'd surely put lawyers in that catagory and make Santa real.

That's because you don't know the difference between your fantasies and reality.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:09:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

That's because you don't know the difference between your fantasies and reality.

Unfortunately I do. That's why I said IF I had a choice.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:14:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

blah blah blah blah

The law is only for those who don't have a lawyer to buy their way out of it. The application of "law" is morally bankrupt and corrupt.

The law isn't there to Cherry pick, as stated you have the right to challenge it thru legal recourse. Some believe like the Browns that if you don't like the law you aren't required to follow it. They place themselves above the law by also stating the only law they follow is that of the bible.

The Browns willfully hid money to evade the tax on that money. They also aggravated their situation further by refusing to take part in their own defense. To further thumb their nose and see themselves above the law they made blatant open threats against peoples lives. They have been criminals throughout this entire case, nothing they have done is for righteous causes.

A dumb or stupid law should be repealed and confronted. Breaking the law only makes you a criminal and wins you little if any support.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   15:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I do not expect to change the opinion of anyone who feels strongly that the income tax is illegal. I don't even want to address that issue, because it is well settled by the courts that they will enforce the Code.

I do expect to have some impact on readers here who might not think solely in terms of their personal beliefs.

If someone does the things the Browns did, they make their battle personal, and they bring out all the worst of those in government. I do not defend those excesses, but I recognize them. People who wouldn't dream of taunting a pit bull will taunt the government, and the government is a lot more dangerous.

I hope that people who read this will understand that if they are cross ways with the IRS, their best path is not tax protest. That will only subject them to carpet bombing. Negotiate. Get professionals who do this for a living.

People who would never dream of trying to take out their own spleen will try to be their own adviser for tax matters. A guy who will spend 10k on a waverunner won't spend 2k getting good advice on tax matters. It's foolhardy thinking, often with bad results.

Once you piss them off, you're not going to be treated well. The goal is to get out of the trap, not change the IRS.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:28:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Good post and good advice. I agree with you 100%.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-08   15:29:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Outstanding post, I couldn't agree more. I wish people would use less emotion and more reason when getting behind causes.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   15:37:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Good post and good advice. I agree with you 100%.

Thanks.

It's unfortunate that for many in online communities, there is no appreciation of the difference between knowing the law and liking it. I hate much of the law, hate much of the judicial system, and know better than anyone how often it leads not to justice, but to injustice. No one knows better than me that money talks and bullshit walks in the law.

If the law is on one side and the money is on the other, bet on the money, not the law. Sad, but true.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:45:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This is probably a good time to change the thread title to "Tax Lawyers Unite".

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   15:49:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Outstanding post, I couldn't agree more. I wish people would use less emotion and more reason when getting behind causes.

Our tax laws need major overhaul, and that means gaining popular support for an idea. We will never change it by having tax protestors fall on their swords, and really, no good is accomplished by their sacrificing themselves on the altar of big government.

A constitutional amendment is one way I think the people could replace the income tax with a fairer tax system. I will always favor the legitimate paths of resistance, however lengthy and laborious they may be.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:50:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This is probably a good time to change the thread title to "Tax Lawyers Unite".

You've gotten a thousand dollars worth of tax advice.

Free.

You won't take it, though, will you?

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   15:56:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

RS,

That's an unfair assessment. I have stated as did Paul Revere that we don't necessarily agree with all the laws. We agree to different methods other then what the browns advocate is all. Just because we advocate staying within the realm of the law to change things we don't like about it, doesn't mean we are defending bad laws.

I have stated more then once, that the Browns have done a disservice to real tax protest. They have harmed the cause more then helped it. Being a realist and stating the obvious doesn't make me a defender of tyranny.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   16:00:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks. In a year you can send me a bill saying "this bill is one year old" and I'll send you a birthday card.

And since you're an expert on tax code, it shouldn't have been all that difficult for you to pull up the clause where it states "who must file". You didn't do that, though, did you? But I should take your advice?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   16:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You argue like a teenager, so I treat you like one.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   16:05:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Okay, I'll accept that. So what method would you suggest? And please don't say "call your representative".

When the rules are crooked (which they are) and the dice are loaded (which they are), playing the game will bankrupt you. Of course NOT playing the game will bankrupt you, too, so either way you're about to get screwed.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   16:11:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You argue like a teenager, so I treat you like one.

Argue? Me? You said your advice was worth a thousand dollars and I want you to earn it. Show us the code ... who must file?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   16:13:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I suggest a well organized movement staying within the confines of the law and a non-violent approach. This country needs someone to inspire them to overcome the dark cloud of the government. This country as a whole lacks direction and lacks courage. When the people have to much to risk, very few will gamble when they know the cards are stacked against them.

I'm waiting for someone to inspire me.. so far I've seen very little. Lots of good ideas of how things should be, but very little direction in accomplishing that.

I don't know an easy fix for this, that's not to say I'm not open minded to one if someone presents it.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   16:40:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Picking on Ed Brown whilst BushCheneyInc are murdering and stealing in the name of your country?

Hehehe.........you are one funny dude. Have you tried out for the latest commedian reality show or sumthin?

Whatever would possess you to think I have any like or respect for the two dumb sonsabitches whom you think are Murder, Inc., or whatever? What planet do you live on? I was against the bushes and cheneys before you were ever born, sonny.

With that said, I call a spade a spade........a jerk is a jerk, a lyin sonofabitch is a lying sonofabitch....I don't care about party, nor tax status.

Anything else ya wanna complain, or should I say, whine about? Or tack a label on or call a name? Have at it.....

If you think you have a reason to doubt me, check with chrissie-- she's known me for quite a few years now, as has loddy.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   16:40:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

check with chrissie-- she's known me for quite a few years now, as has loddy

Quibblin' over the Browns and their well-intentioned misadventures is a sideshow to the more important emerging fascist state. I just don't agree with Ed Brown being a jerk. Hell He's going to prison while the pricks are having parties and planning their retirement in Paraguay. He at least did something. Naive, too-trusting, not saavy enough, OK. A jerk? I can't in good conscience allow someone who at least did something to be called a jerk unopposed.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   17:10:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They have harmed the cause more then helped it.

No. They've brought it to the attention of some. That's a helluva lot more than what most are doing.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   17:14:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I suggest a well organized movement staying within the confines of the law and a non-violent approach.

Do you have any idea how fast a serious (lawful) movement to alter the status quo is infiltrated and blown apart from within? I've seen that first hand on more than one occasion. Infiltraters join the group, they work to become everybody's best buddy and then little by little they begin to gnaw away on the integrity of the mission and the cohesiveness of the members. Whenever possible, they try to get the leaders to incriminate themselves.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   17:22:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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