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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Are Ed and Elaine Brown Dead?
Source: Keene Free Press
URL Source: http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo ... ent&task=view&id=630&Itemid=36
Published: Oct 6, 2007
Author: Kat Kanning
Post Date: 2007-10-07 12:39:01 by JiminyC
Keywords: None
Views: 2763
Comments: 258

Are Ed and Elaine Brown dead? We don't know - the government won't tell where they are, so we cannot verify their condition. If Ed and Elaine had been hurt during their arrest, it would be in the government's interest to withhold this information, since they obviously fear a violent reaction to the arrest from Brown supporters. Until the government chooses to divulge information on the Brown's whereabouts, we will be unable to verify their condition and will have to assume the worst.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

They can certainly tie up everything in your name........from a safety deposit box, to all banking accounts, car titles, land titles, wages, investments, and the like.

And the good folks at the IRS can lie when answering you and it doesn't absolve you from what they declare is due them. If you keep tabs on who told you what, if they're in a generous mood, they will defer any penalty and interest if you can tell them who gave you the bad info.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   0:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

i'm sorry that my husband and i started our fight with them. the lesson learned and learning

I was once so naive in thinking that the government, police et al would obey the law if pressed. You learn otherwise once you deal with them.

I also reached a point where I knew it would be pointless to continue banging my head up against a wall.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2007-10-08   0:34:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you have nothing,be my guest and test all these wild tax theories.

If you have nothing, the IRS leaves you alone. They only bite into juicy targets that are easy pickins.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2007-10-08   0:36:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ed said way too much, taunted the feds way too much, and was way too lax in his security for my taste.

That's why so many people like the guy. If a million people would stand up and do what he did the income tax would be dead in America. A few here and few there is a start. Bowing down to these SOBs will make you a slave. If you can live with that then you have no right to be free.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2007-10-08   3:06:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

When dealing with something like the Browns, it is important to recognize that more than one issue is in play, and therefore, we should attempt to delineate among those issues.

For some, this is a taxpayer protest issue.

For some, this is an issue of IRS and government excess.

For some, this is simply the government doing its job.

The evidence seems to suggest that the Browns were not classic tax protestors, but classic tax evaders. Most tax evaders acknowledge their wrong, negotiate a deal, pay a penalty and back taxes, and avoid criminal prosecution or sanctions. The percentage of federal prisoners who are in prison for taxes is truly small. Without addressing whether the income tax is legit, we do know that the Browns actively misrepresented their income in filings with the IRS. This is much different from tax protest. This is tax evasion.

Classic tax protestors refuse to acknowledge that the IRS and that the taxes sought are legitimate. I'm not going to attempt to address that notion, because there's not much to discuss. Whether the income tax is legitimate is a question that has been answered by those who are in a position to indict, prosecute and imprison dissenters. The courts, the IRS, the prosecutors, and most importantly, the public at large, accept the income tax and the right of the government to enforce it.

When someone like the Browns hides income, then files false information, then espouses tax protestor status, then talks of not being taken alive, they open themselves up for maximum grief and government retribution.

I do not like it when our government uses its muscle against citizens. However, when citizens openly challenge the government, they must recognize that there are ways to challenge the government that have legal and social acceptance, and those that do not. We have an accepted way. It's in the court house and in the court of public opinion. It is not playing at tax protestor, talking big, and drawing in a line in the dirt with the federal government.

I am appalled at the way the IRS and our government sometimes behave. I am also appalled at the way some pit bulls attack people. One should understand when and how to interact with the IRS and pit bulls, and also know when and how not to.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   4:03:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Certain criteria are expected of everyone in a free and transparent society which expects financial support from the citizens.

An honest response to the simple question "what law makes me liable for or subject to the income tax"; a question that has been asked by many people numerous times would be a good place to start.

While I remain ignorant of the Brown's particulars I question the methods being utilized by most government agencies that promote continued misconceptions on the part of citizens that have asked for clarification.

Further, confiscation of personal property, bank accounts, computer hard drives, and other materials necessary to litigate the issues prior to litigation deprive the citizen (individual) of due process and equal protection under the law. There is an articuable bias towards the IRS being demonstrated in most tax cases to such an extent that these hearings/trials operate as summary judgments independent of the evidence.

Simply put, we're instructed from childhood about how free we are, how we are the government, and how superior our system is to others that aren't predicated upon a written constitution which serves as the foundation for all other laws, regulations and codes. Our educational process doesn't include much effort towards our legal knowledge by the time we reach legal majority. More accurately stated we know nothing of the law or court procedures after completion of 12th Grade, yet we're bound to operate within the laws, which are plentiful. Even trained lawyers specialize in limited areas because there are so many categories to be addressed.

A system that demands the participation of everyone regardless of their intelligence or education level should be a simplified one to be fair and in the case of the IRS Code it doesn't appear that even the creators comprehend it.

Lastly, when the system of law doesn't appear to square with the fundamental (constitutional) law, and an individual with an alleged right to redress requests an answer to this discrepancy, incarceration, confiscation and litigation do not contribute much to the notion of honest and transparent government.

Our government forgives billions of dollars in debt annually, mostly that of foreigners while at the same time it pulls out all of the stops to prosecute its own citizens. Forgive me for calling a spade a spade, but regardless of the hidden principles upon which tax laws rely upon to justify collection, the people that operate to enforce them act contrary to all commonly accepted behavior conducive to a civilized society.

Ed and Elaine are just 2 more casualties of the federal notion of FREEDOM. I'm of the opinion that this behavior on the part of the IRS will continue until a violent revolution takes place because there appears to be no shortage of assholes who will do anything to obtain a pay check and the IRS has managed to hire a sufficient number of them.

I have been asked at times to explain withdrawal from the system to people that have become interested in the subject. I usually refuse because it's not a simple silver bullet sort of solution that is easily understood, nor does it make life simple. It becomes a way of life not enjoyed by the timid. I did it strictly because I determined the SSN fit all of the requirements of the Mark of the Beast that is described in the Bible. There are a lot of other reasons to be sure, but not many that instill the intestinal fortitude necessary to take on the federal government.

I determined that the penalty for accepting the Mark outweighed anything the government could do to me. So, my decision to withdraw completely from their system had little to do with the potential repurcussions government might impose, but upon the penalty God will impose.

Most people are able to convince themselves that my determination re. the Mark is in error especially when they come under pressure or decide the inconvenience is ludicrous. I don't blame them for their decision and subsequently I generally reject requests to proselytize the withdrawal process. I think anyone serious enough to withdraw must have the conviction and will to carry it out independent of me. I might add that it must be a spiritual conviction that supercedes all concerns one might have regarding freedom, materialism or life itself. The guys on the other side of the equation play for keeps, they've shown themselves to be callous murdering thugs and to underestimate them is fatal. To assist someone else in taking such a position is a responsiblity that I am not inclined to take mainly because people usually have the wrong motivation to begin with and secondly they usually do a half assed job of it and remain "in" the system.

My fervent hope is that the system will implode and afford the opportunity for people to opt out of any replacement system.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-08   7:55:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The guys on the other side of the equation play for keeps, they've shown themselves to be callous murdering thugs and to underestimate them is fatal.

Well written rebuttal.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   8:10:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I once invested in a business situation that caused a great deal of grief and heart-burn. After much litigation and associated expense I asked myself ...wtf, and then resorted to analyzing the pros and cons. In the end I was able to console myself by considering the experience, knowledge and some of the people involved, that I would never have otherwise known, as the value received. All of the challenges strengthen us, the mistakes educate us and in my case made me re-evaluate the temporary arrangements we enjoy in this life and the fact that they can change for a million reasons, some righteous and others not.

All things indicate to me that we're on the precipice of events that will require the training and determined patience we're getting now.

God, I hope I'm wrong.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-08   8:11:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"For the support of this declaration, with firm reliance on the protection of the divine providence, we mutually pledge to each other, our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor."

There are things more important than life.

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   8:16:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks ... there's a movie available at netflix called "The Take" about the collapse of the Argentine economic system and its rebirth. It's worth viewing because it demonstrates the difficulty in establishing a new system free from the qualities and parties that tainted the previous one.

"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins

noone222  posted on  2007-10-08   8:21:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The thing that blows my mind is that BushCheneyInc murder at will in the name of our country. No one is surrounding their homes and dragging them to prison. The Browns, however misguided, resisted what they perceived as illegal confiscation of their wealth. And where are they?

angle  posted on  2007-10-08   8:26:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

IIRC, it was essentially debunked.

I just love it when somebody says something "was debunked" without telling us by whom it was debunked, or when, or giving any details of its debunking.

So are you saying these people didn't exist? Or that they just weren't harmed by the British? Are we supposed to believe the run-up to the revolution was sterile and passive? What?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:00:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

thanks for that history review of sacrifices

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-10-08   9:12:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

However, when citizens openly challenge the government...

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

Read New History

JiminyC  posted on  2007-10-08   9:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There are things more important than life.

And there are more important things than "toys". Many people don't rock any boats simply because they're afraid they'll lose the toys they've worked so hard to get.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:28:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You bet.

Unfortunately, it doesn't put us in a very good light by comparison.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:32:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

The people in power today wouldn't be able to name a half dozen of these folks, never mind follow the blueprint they left us for a Republic. This isn't America and the people enforcing the rules have no rules.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-10-08   9:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I just love it when somebody says something "was debunked" without telling us by whom it was debunked, or when, or giving any details of its debunking.

So are you saying these people didn't exist? Or that they just weren't harmed by the British? Are we supposed to believe the run-up to the revolution was sterile and passive? What?

Some are true and some false according to Snopes, I also remember it being said it wasn't all together true at the height of it's going around.

www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ment to ping you to post 69.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:49:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The people in power today wouldn't be able to name a half dozen of these folks, never mind follow the blueprint they left us for a Republic.

Its worse than that. Most of the rest of us couldn't name a half dozen of these folks, either. We've totally lost our roots, so we're withering and turning brown (in more ways than one.)

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:51:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Some are true and some false according to Snopes, I also remember it being said it wasn't all together true at the height of it's going around.

How sad. They died in vain.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:55:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You don't disagree with my post. You state that you have chosen to take your own path, with the risk to you that carries.

I think you're painfully wrong about several things, chiefly these two:

1. Your following anything said in the Bible, as if it matters to this issue. I don't believe the Bible is anything more than a collection of stories, legends, half truths, and dogma. Christianity and what it has "accomplished" through group think is more vile than the income tax.

2. Your allusions to the need for some violent overthrow of the system. We have a political system, and if you want to change the law, we have a way to address that. I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist, and certainly not a revolutionary. I favor massive reform of the taxing system, as I've stated in other posts, but I believe in effecting those changes through accepted political methods.

You follow an ancient text written by goatherders or stolen from Mesopotamia pagans, while speaking of others being brainwashed by tales told them since childhood. We live in this world, not the one you've constructed in your head, which only works as long as you - like the Browns - can avoid detection.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   9:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How sad. They died in vain.

Well legends have a ring of truth to them, but they are dressed up for a better sell to keep it going. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as it does serve as a reminder, It's just not all together true is all. I don't believe they died in vain.

I have a small hope not all is gone, albeit that hope realistically is diminishing rather quickly.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You clipped my quote so you could use a trite statement that has never been true.

Here's my actual quote.

"However, when citizens openly challenge the government, they must recognize that there are ways to challenge the government that have legal and social acceptance, and those that do not."

Life is more complicated than simple thoughts and simple homilies.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:07:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well legends have a ring of truth to them, but they are dressed up for a better sell to keep it going. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as it does serve as a reminder, It's just not all together true is all. I don't believe they died in vain.

I have a small hope not all is gone, albeit that hope realistically is diminishing rather quickly.

Actually, if you take a good look around at the direction this country has taken in the past three hundred years, you'll have to admit that they did, in fact, die in vain, regardless of whether or not you know their names and circumstances.

But believe me, no one will remember the Browns in three hundred years (maybe three hundred days) and shoot, Pat Tillman's murder was being covered up before his body was even cold. We're making progress.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:09:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"However, when citizens openly challenge the government, they must recognize that there are ways to challenge the government that have legal and social acceptance, and those that do not."

Sure, until they pass new laws making what is currently considered a legal and socially acceptable means of challenging the government illegal and socially unacceptable. Stroke of a pen, dude. Don't protest anything on their side of the sidewalk, which is every side of the sidewalk, just buckle under and accept it all.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:16:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Actually, if you take a good look around at the direction this country has taken in the past three hundred years, you'll have to admit that they did, in fact, die in vain, regardless of whether or not you know their names and circumstances.

But believe me, no one will remember the Browns in three hundred years (maybe three hundred days) and shoot, Pat Tillman's murder was being covered up before his body was even cold. We're making progress.

There's really no argument to anything you've stated here sadly other then the fact that they died in vain.

They submitted a concept if nothing else and a precedent to follow. It can be done but it requires to much work, people are to lazy to be free, to irresponsible. Maybe that will change again someday. The revolution happened with a small group of people, yet another good example. Huge change in this country is usually done by the few with the majority kicking and screaming all the way, yet another thing to focus on. :)

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   10:20:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sure, until they pass new laws making what is currently considered a legal and socially acceptable means of challenging the government illegal and socially unacceptable. Stroke of a pen, dude. Don't protest anything on their side of the sidewalk, which is every side of the sidewalk, just buckle under and accept it all.

That's a different topic, one on which I've already given my opinions on other threads. Yes, our liberties are now grievously threatened. The answer to that threat is not asinine talk of violent overthrow of the government.

I find such talk downright stupid, especially when made by people posting online to public message boards.

You have a right to be heard. You have a right to state your case, to go on youtube, to create your own website, to get as many people as you can to listen to you and follow you.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:25:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There's really no argument to anything you've stated here sadly other then the fact that they died in vain.

I think if those who died could rise up from their graves and get a look at us today, they'd beg to differ with you. They would probably agree, however, that people who cheer the incarceration of the few who actively rebel against tyranny are too lazy and irresponsible to deserve freedom.

And, of course, if you read the anti federalist papers you'll see that there were people way back then who predicted that a central government would result in our downfall.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:31:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The answer to that threat is not asinine talk of violent overthrow of the government.

Where have I suggested anything remotely resembling a violent overthrow of the government? How did the Browns act violently against the government?

But since simply saying "no" to government usurpation isn't legally or socially acceptable anymore, it WILL ultimately result in violence, whether you or I want it to happen that way. And I'd even lay you pretty heavy odds that the violence will be engendered by the government itself, not a gaggle of wild eyed rebels.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They would probably agree, however, that people who cheer the incarceration of the few who actively rebel against tyranny are too lazy and irresponsible to deserve freedom.

You'll most likely find my post offensive, and it's not my intention.

It's all a matter of perspective RS. As has been stated, the Browns were tax evaders not tax protesters. They did more harm to the cause then good. They went thru the system and were found guilty, and as a last stitch attempt they attached themselves to the tax moment, They lied, hid money and were generally dishonest. They have misrepresented people in the the tax movement as liars.

One can not change the law if they aren't willing to at least be honest about the circumstance. In other words, The ends doesn't justify the means. You can't lie, evade, be willfully deceitful , be an active fugitive who's been found guilty and still proclaim you're wrongly accused and innocent. I think people who want to advocate a tax change need to have a more honest spokes person to represent them. Personally I wouldn't touch the Brown case with a ten foot poll. He went about everything back-assward.

Yes I want change, but I refuse to attach myself or my name to anything less then an honest attempt. I have to also say I agree with much of what the poster Paul Revere says, their ideology mirrors mine in the fact of not being an anarchist, and attempting change thru legal means. There is a time and place for civil disobedience.. I don't think this case is one of those times.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   10:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Where have I suggested anything remotely resembling a violent overthrow of the government? How did the Browns act violently against the government?

But since simply saying "no" to government usurpation isn't legally or socially acceptable anymore, it WILL ultimately result in violence, whether you or I want it to happen that way. And I'd even lay you pretty heavy odds that the violence will be engendered by the government itself, not a gaggle of wild eyed rebels.

This is a discussion. It's not simply about what you say in one post. I was responding to a specific post, wherein there was mentioned the need for violent action. If you're going to use one of my posts as an excuse to say what you want to say, at least pay attention to what I have addressed in this thread.

There are some on this thread who have suggested such things, and I have addressed those statements. Your attempt to avoid that prior discussion as the basis for my statement is disingenuous.

You're fighting a straw man, not my commentary, so there's no need for me to comment to your post further.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Why would I find your comments offensive? I just find them somewhat less than brilliant.

The "movement" to revise tax laws to make them more equitible has been underway for several decades now. You'd almost think you guys were running a cancer research lab, or something, as slow as its going. Maybe we should expect some progress by the next millinium?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:04:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Agreed.

As icons, the Browns are not a good selection. They are hardly what I would call legit tax protestors. If we want to make heroes of tax protestors, the ones who deserve that status are all those little guys who would have owed nothing or next to nothing if they had filed, but chose not to on principle.

Making the Browns out to be heroes is wrong, IMO. They did everything wrong. They used the tax protest movement as their last bastion of denial. Now they've completely ruined their lives and will be lucky if they ever see each other again. It's a terrible toll to pay for their personal greed and obstinence.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   11:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How did the Browns act violently against the government?

They were begging for bloodshed and put open death threats out on officers and town officials. Did they act? No, but they promised death to people to attempted to capture them, they were after all already found guilty and according to the existing law they were fugitives.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   11:09:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was responding to a specific post, wherein there was mentioned the need for violent action.

Mentioned by whom? Strangely, you also accused noone of an alleged call for violence. I checked both his and my posts and couldn't find any reference at all to a "need for violence". Perhaps you could back up your accusation with a direct quote from the specific post in question? Thanks in advance.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Nah, I've wasted enough time with you.

You don't have the intelligence or knowledge for a decent conversation. Also, you lack reading comprehension. Go pester someone who cares about your opinion.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   11:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They were begging for bloodshed and put open death threats out on officers and town officials. Did they act? No, but they promised death to people to attempted to capture them, they were after all already found guilty and according to the existing law they were fugitives.

I think saying (okay, shouting) that you'll defend yourself against an attack in your own home isn't quite the same as "begging for bloodshed".

I guess you have more faith in the justice system than some of the rest of us and that's okay, people have faith in a lot of things that are purely illusion/delusion.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:15:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Its worse than that. Most of the rest of us couldn't name a half dozen of these folks, either. We've totally lost our roots, so we're withering and turning brown (in more ways than one.)

I agree, RS. For those of us who still cling to the past, I'd venture to say, presently, the towns of Concord and Lexington couldn't muster enough folks for a Sunday picnic never mind an anti-government militia. This beast system is safe as far as I can see.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-10-08   11:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Nah, I've wasted enough time with you.

Couldn't find that specific post, huh? How humiliating for you.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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