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Dead Constitution
See other Dead Constitution Articles

Title: Are Ed and Elaine Brown Dead?
Source: Keene Free Press
URL Source: http://www.keenefreepress.com/mambo ... ent&task=view&id=630&Itemid=36
Published: Oct 6, 2007
Author: Kat Kanning
Post Date: 2007-10-07 12:39:01 by JiminyC
Keywords: None
Views: 2695
Comments: 258

Are Ed and Elaine Brown dead? We don't know - the government won't tell where they are, so we cannot verify their condition. If Ed and Elaine had been hurt during their arrest, it would be in the government's interest to withhold this information, since they obviously fear a violent reaction to the arrest from Brown supporters. Until the government chooses to divulge information on the Brown's whereabouts, we will be unable to verify their condition and will have to assume the worst.

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However, when citizens openly challenge the government...

"Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice."

Read New History

JiminyC  posted on  2007-10-08   9:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There are things more important than life.

And there are more important things than "toys". Many people don't rock any boats simply because they're afraid they'll lose the toys they've worked so hard to get.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:28:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You bet.

Unfortunately, it doesn't put us in a very good light by comparison.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:32:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men who signed the Declaration of Independence?

The people in power today wouldn't be able to name a half dozen of these folks, never mind follow the blueprint they left us for a Republic. This isn't America and the people enforcing the rules have no rules.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-10-08   9:45:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I just love it when somebody says something "was debunked" without telling us by whom it was debunked, or when, or giving any details of its debunking.

So are you saying these people didn't exist? Or that they just weren't harmed by the British? Are we supposed to believe the run-up to the revolution was sterile and passive? What?

Some are true and some false according to Snopes, I also remember it being said it wasn't all together true at the height of it's going around.

www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:47:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ment to ping you to post 69.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:49:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The people in power today wouldn't be able to name a half dozen of these folks, never mind follow the blueprint they left us for a Republic.

Its worse than that. Most of the rest of us couldn't name a half dozen of these folks, either. We've totally lost our roots, so we're withering and turning brown (in more ways than one.)

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:51:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Some are true and some false according to Snopes, I also remember it being said it wasn't all together true at the height of it's going around.

How sad. They died in vain.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   9:55:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You don't disagree with my post. You state that you have chosen to take your own path, with the risk to you that carries.

I think you're painfully wrong about several things, chiefly these two:

1. Your following anything said in the Bible, as if it matters to this issue. I don't believe the Bible is anything more than a collection of stories, legends, half truths, and dogma. Christianity and what it has "accomplished" through group think is more vile than the income tax.

2. Your allusions to the need for some violent overthrow of the system. We have a political system, and if you want to change the law, we have a way to address that. I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist, and certainly not a revolutionary. I favor massive reform of the taxing system, as I've stated in other posts, but I believe in effecting those changes through accepted political methods.

You follow an ancient text written by goatherders or stolen from Mesopotamia pagans, while speaking of others being brainwashed by tales told them since childhood. We live in this world, not the one you've constructed in your head, which only works as long as you - like the Browns - can avoid detection.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   9:59:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How sad. They died in vain.

Well legends have a ring of truth to them, but they are dressed up for a better sell to keep it going. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as it does serve as a reminder, It's just not all together true is all. I don't believe they died in vain.

I have a small hope not all is gone, albeit that hope realistically is diminishing rather quickly.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   9:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You clipped my quote so you could use a trite statement that has never been true.

Here's my actual quote.

"However, when citizens openly challenge the government, they must recognize that there are ways to challenge the government that have legal and social acceptance, and those that do not."

Life is more complicated than simple thoughts and simple homilies.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:07:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Well legends have a ring of truth to them, but they are dressed up for a better sell to keep it going. I don't think there's anything wrong with that necessarily as it does serve as a reminder, It's just not all together true is all. I don't believe they died in vain.

I have a small hope not all is gone, albeit that hope realistically is diminishing rather quickly.

Actually, if you take a good look around at the direction this country has taken in the past three hundred years, you'll have to admit that they did, in fact, die in vain, regardless of whether or not you know their names and circumstances.

But believe me, no one will remember the Browns in three hundred years (maybe three hundred days) and shoot, Pat Tillman's murder was being covered up before his body was even cold. We're making progress.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:09:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"However, when citizens openly challenge the government, they must recognize that there are ways to challenge the government that have legal and social acceptance, and those that do not."

Sure, until they pass new laws making what is currently considered a legal and socially acceptable means of challenging the government illegal and socially unacceptable. Stroke of a pen, dude. Don't protest anything on their side of the sidewalk, which is every side of the sidewalk, just buckle under and accept it all.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:16:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Actually, if you take a good look around at the direction this country has taken in the past three hundred years, you'll have to admit that they did, in fact, die in vain, regardless of whether or not you know their names and circumstances.

But believe me, no one will remember the Browns in three hundred years (maybe three hundred days) and shoot, Pat Tillman's murder was being covered up before his body was even cold. We're making progress.

There's really no argument to anything you've stated here sadly other then the fact that they died in vain.

They submitted a concept if nothing else and a precedent to follow. It can be done but it requires to much work, people are to lazy to be free, to irresponsible. Maybe that will change again someday. The revolution happened with a small group of people, yet another good example. Huge change in this country is usually done by the few with the majority kicking and screaming all the way, yet another thing to focus on. :)

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   10:20:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Sure, until they pass new laws making what is currently considered a legal and socially acceptable means of challenging the government illegal and socially unacceptable. Stroke of a pen, dude. Don't protest anything on their side of the sidewalk, which is every side of the sidewalk, just buckle under and accept it all.

That's a different topic, one on which I've already given my opinions on other threads. Yes, our liberties are now grievously threatened. The answer to that threat is not asinine talk of violent overthrow of the government.

I find such talk downright stupid, especially when made by people posting online to public message boards.

You have a right to be heard. You have a right to state your case, to go on youtube, to create your own website, to get as many people as you can to listen to you and follow you.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:25:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There's really no argument to anything you've stated here sadly other then the fact that they died in vain.

I think if those who died could rise up from their graves and get a look at us today, they'd beg to differ with you. They would probably agree, however, that people who cheer the incarceration of the few who actively rebel against tyranny are too lazy and irresponsible to deserve freedom.

And, of course, if you read the anti federalist papers you'll see that there were people way back then who predicted that a central government would result in our downfall.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:31:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The answer to that threat is not asinine talk of violent overthrow of the government.

Where have I suggested anything remotely resembling a violent overthrow of the government? How did the Browns act violently against the government?

But since simply saying "no" to government usurpation isn't legally or socially acceptable anymore, it WILL ultimately result in violence, whether you or I want it to happen that way. And I'd even lay you pretty heavy odds that the violence will be engendered by the government itself, not a gaggle of wild eyed rebels.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   10:44:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They would probably agree, however, that people who cheer the incarceration of the few who actively rebel against tyranny are too lazy and irresponsible to deserve freedom.

You'll most likely find my post offensive, and it's not my intention.

It's all a matter of perspective RS. As has been stated, the Browns were tax evaders not tax protesters. They did more harm to the cause then good. They went thru the system and were found guilty, and as a last stitch attempt they attached themselves to the tax moment, They lied, hid money and were generally dishonest. They have misrepresented people in the the tax movement as liars.

One can not change the law if they aren't willing to at least be honest about the circumstance. In other words, The ends doesn't justify the means. You can't lie, evade, be willfully deceitful , be an active fugitive who's been found guilty and still proclaim you're wrongly accused and innocent. I think people who want to advocate a tax change need to have a more honest spokes person to represent them. Personally I wouldn't touch the Brown case with a ten foot poll. He went about everything back-assward.

Yes I want change, but I refuse to attach myself or my name to anything less then an honest attempt. I have to also say I agree with much of what the poster Paul Revere says, their ideology mirrors mine in the fact of not being an anarchist, and attempting change thru legal means. There is a time and place for civil disobedience.. I don't think this case is one of those times.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   10:55:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Where have I suggested anything remotely resembling a violent overthrow of the government? How did the Browns act violently against the government?

But since simply saying "no" to government usurpation isn't legally or socially acceptable anymore, it WILL ultimately result in violence, whether you or I want it to happen that way. And I'd even lay you pretty heavy odds that the violence will be engendered by the government itself, not a gaggle of wild eyed rebels.

This is a discussion. It's not simply about what you say in one post. I was responding to a specific post, wherein there was mentioned the need for violent action. If you're going to use one of my posts as an excuse to say what you want to say, at least pay attention to what I have addressed in this thread.

There are some on this thread who have suggested such things, and I have addressed those statements. Your attempt to avoid that prior discussion as the basis for my statement is disingenuous.

You're fighting a straw man, not my commentary, so there's no need for me to comment to your post further.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   10:57:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Why would I find your comments offensive? I just find them somewhat less than brilliant.

The "movement" to revise tax laws to make them more equitible has been underway for several decades now. You'd almost think you guys were running a cancer research lab, or something, as slow as its going. Maybe we should expect some progress by the next millinium?

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:04:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Agreed.

As icons, the Browns are not a good selection. They are hardly what I would call legit tax protestors. If we want to make heroes of tax protestors, the ones who deserve that status are all those little guys who would have owed nothing or next to nothing if they had filed, but chose not to on principle.

Making the Browns out to be heroes is wrong, IMO. They did everything wrong. They used the tax protest movement as their last bastion of denial. Now they've completely ruined their lives and will be lucky if they ever see each other again. It's a terrible toll to pay for their personal greed and obstinence.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   11:05:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

How did the Browns act violently against the government?

They were begging for bloodshed and put open death threats out on officers and town officials. Did they act? No, but they promised death to people to attempted to capture them, they were after all already found guilty and according to the existing law they were fugitives.

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   11:09:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I was responding to a specific post, wherein there was mentioned the need for violent action.

Mentioned by whom? Strangely, you also accused noone of an alleged call for violence. I checked both his and my posts and couldn't find any reference at all to a "need for violence". Perhaps you could back up your accusation with a direct quote from the specific post in question? Thanks in advance.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:11:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Nah, I've wasted enough time with you.

You don't have the intelligence or knowledge for a decent conversation. Also, you lack reading comprehension. Go pester someone who cares about your opinion.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   11:13:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They were begging for bloodshed and put open death threats out on officers and town officials. Did they act? No, but they promised death to people to attempted to capture them, they were after all already found guilty and according to the existing law they were fugitives.

I think saying (okay, shouting) that you'll defend yourself against an attack in your own home isn't quite the same as "begging for bloodshed".

I guess you have more faith in the justice system than some of the rest of us and that's okay, people have faith in a lot of things that are purely illusion/delusion.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:15:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Its worse than that. Most of the rest of us couldn't name a half dozen of these folks, either. We've totally lost our roots, so we're withering and turning brown (in more ways than one.)

I agree, RS. For those of us who still cling to the past, I'd venture to say, presently, the towns of Concord and Lexington couldn't muster enough folks for a Sunday picnic never mind an anti-government militia. This beast system is safe as far as I can see.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-10-08   11:16:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Nah, I've wasted enough time with you.

Couldn't find that specific post, huh? How humiliating for you.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:20:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I don't know that I cling to the past so much as I want to better understand the parts of it that've been buried for political reasons and for the monetary gain of the few at the top.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:23:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As I said, "Nah, I've wasted enough time with you."

Still trying to learn how to read at middle school level? Keep working. You'll get that GED yet, Gomer.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-08   11:27:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

From WPTZ News LAINFIELD, N.H. -- A man convicted of federal tax evasion was quoted in a newspaper article making threats against local law enforcement officials on Friday.

In the New Hampshire Union Leader article, Ed Brown said that his supporters will find and kill local law enforcement officials if they kill him or his wife. Brown mentioned the Plainfield police chief and Sullivan County sheriff.

-----------------
"Threats were made that pertain to the Sullivan County Sheriff's Office, Plainfield police," said Plainfield Sgt. Lawrence Dore. "We're making a joint effort to accurately reflect our response to that."

The Sullivan County attorney issued a statement on Friday saying that Ed Brown was trying to increase tensions.

"Ed Brown has by his recent contingent threat to kill Sullivan County Sheriff Michael Prozzo and Plainfield chief of police Gordon Gillens attempted to increase tension arising from his continued refusal to obey the law," the statement read.

Source: http://www.wptz.com/news/13868618/detail.html

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   11:38:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I have no doubt that that's how it was reported in the newspapers, which are known for being truthful. But tell me, how do we know the "supporters" making these threats weren't feds? At least it seems there were a few wolves in sheep's clothing hanging around the Browns.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:44:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Derry Brownfield www.gcnlive.com was mentioning the Brown's being zapped with a DARPA electronic disorientation device just now - nothing factual, just speculating about how they could have been taken down.

Join the Ron Paul Revolution

Lod  posted on  2007-10-08   11:45:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

At least it seems there were a few wolves in sheep's clothing hanging around the Browns.

in light of how it ended, i'd say that's pretty a safe assumption.

christine  posted on  2007-10-08   11:54:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They have the source coming from Brown himself RS. Perhaps your right, is there anyplace where the Browns deny making these threats? If so I'd like to view it. Thanks

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   11:54:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Wouldn't something like that also effect the infiltrators who were there to make the arrest? I like Derry, but that kind of speculation isn't especially helpful, IMO.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   11:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They have the source coming from Brown himself RS.

I know, but I think if we look more carefully at how it was worded, Ed was merely REPEATING what he'd been told by alleged supporters, who may or may not have been federal agents.

I'm not saying he handled the situation well, just that we can have no idea how we'd personally handle a similar situation and therefore, I'll withhold judgement.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   12:00:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

in light of how it ended, i'd say that's pretty a safe assumption.

Infiltration is the name of the game. And we all know who always wins that game.

RidinShotgun  posted on  2007-10-08   12:01:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So are you saying these people didn't exist? Or that they just weren't harmed by the British? Are we supposed to believe the run-up to the revolution was sterile and passive? What?

1. I am not saying they did or did not exist, and at this point in life, I'm not planning to do much, if any, research, about it. I merely noted that a few years back there was this, or a similar article/story/whatever, that came to the public's attention. And many noted/notorious people jumped on the bandwagon on reporting that our Founders gave their all.

2. I cannot remember the details of who did what, when, or where, or even why.....nor do I much give a shit--with your attitude, who gives a damn anyways. I was/am hopeful someone else might remember more details than I did. I'm sure Buchanan was one who talked about the fates these honorable men met, or allegedly met.

3. It turned out that it was not the case; that for all the detailed stories that were given out were simply not factual. I cannot remember who did the researching to come to this.......and again, I don't much give a shit. My respect for the Founders doesn't go to how they died, or by whose hand.

4. You can believe whatever you want to about the run=up to the revolution being sterile or unsanitary or passive or impassive........or as you say, 'what'.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   12:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Ed was merely REPEATING what he'd been told by alleged supporters, who may or may not have been federal agents.

I dunno, according this they have him on a radio broadcast making the threats. It's going to be pretty hard to defend it, and from what I read they are going to be brining more charges against them.

Anyways, Source and quotes as follows.

http://www.concordmonitor.com/ap...E/710060355/0/COMMUNITY01

Instead, this turned ugly, with violence and doom on the horizon. Early on, Ed Brown said this could turn into another Waco if authorities pushed things too far.

In a sense, war was declared by the Browns. Their friends and supporters brought high-powered rifles to their fortress. The Browns vowed never to be taken alive, saying they'd leave their home only as free people or in body bags.

And then there was the harsh rhetoric directed toward Judge Steven McAuliffe, who presided over the Browns' tax evasion trial.

The Browns and their supporters have said that McAuliffe is the criminal. McAuliffe took himself off the cases of two men charged with helping the Browns. He said threats made against him could lead some to question his impartiality. U.S. Marshal Stephen Monier would not confirm yesterday whether McAuliffe received heightened security.

But that would be a reasonable assumption. Here's why:

"This is a warning," Ed Brown said in a February radio broadcast. "Once this thing starts, we're going to seek them out and hunt them down. And we're going to bring them to justice. So anybody who wishes to join them, you go right ahead and join them. But I promise you, long after I'm gone, they're going to seek out every one of you and your bloodline."

In a video posted later that month, Brown cited McAuliffe again. "I wouldn't want to be this judge or these other people. . . . Their names are already out there," Brown said. "They are just as vulnerable as I am. And if they're so foolish and stupid to think that they're not, hey, doom on them."

Japedo  posted on  2007-10-08   12:53:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thanks, Japedo..........I couldn't and still can't remember all the details at the time this was happening. Just one of those 'things' that stick in your mind for some goofball reason.

This "Sometimers" disease really irritates me at times.

rowdee  posted on  2007-10-08   13:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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