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Title: Frost family draws ire of conservatives
Source: Baltimore Sun
URL Source: http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/na ... page=1&coll=bal-iraq-headlines
Published: Oct 10, 2007
Author: Matthew Hay Brown
Post Date: 2007-10-10 09:23:59 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 410
Comments: 19

Frost family draws ire of conservatives

By Matthew Hay Brown | Sun Reporter
October 10, 2007

When Halsey and Bonnie Frost agreed to go public with how the State Children's Health Insurance Program helped them after a car crash left two of their children comatose, the Baltimore couple expected to hear from critics of government-funded health care.

But while the Frosts were helping a bipartisan majority in Congress sell a plan to expand the program, they were not prepared for comments such as this one, posted over the weekend on the conservative Web site Redstate:

"If federal funds were required [they] could die for all I care. Let the parents get second jobs, let their state foot the bill or let them seek help from private charities. ... I would hire a team of PIs and find out exactly how much their parents made and where they spent every nickel. Then I'd do everything possible to destroy their lives with that info."

So has begun the education of the Frosts, the young family of six who volunteered to advocate for the program for moderate-income families - the expansion has been approved by Congress but vetoed by President Bush - and now find themselves the focus of a nasty national debate.

The onslaught began over the weekend, a week after 12-year-old Graeme Frost delivered the Democrats' weekly radio address with a plea to Bush to sign the bill. A contributor to the conservative Web site Free Republic noted Graeme's enrollment in the private Park School and the sale of a smaller rowhouse on the Frosts' block for $485,000 this year and questioned whether the family should be taking advantage of the state program.

That post was picked up by the National Review Online and other Web sites. By Monday, Rush Limbaugh was discussing the family's earnings and assets on the air, and the blogger Michelle Malkin was writing about her visit to Halsey Frost's East Baltimore warehouse and her drive past the family's Butchers Hill rowhouse. Liberal bloggers, meanwhile, were complaining that the Frosts were being "swift-boated."

"It's really frustrating," said Bonnie Frost, 41, who stated she is upset by the angry Internet posts, e-mails and telephone calls targeting the family. "The whole point of it for me was that this program helped my family, and I wanted it to help others. That's the message, and I can't believe the way the spotlight has been taken off of that."

"It's a distractive technique," said Halsey Frost, also 41. Speaking from their cluttered front room yesterday, the Frosts said they would continue to advocate for government-funded health care.

The Sun, which published articles about the Frosts when House Speaker Nancy Pelosi introduced Bonnie and 9-year-old Gemma at a news conference last month and again when Graeme delivered the radio address, also has drawn criticism from posters on conservative Web sites for not reporting the details of the family's financial circumstances more fully.

At issue is the proposal to expand the State Children's Health Insurance Program - also known as SCHIP - which provides coverage for 6.6 million children from families not poor enough to qualify for Medicaid. Democrats, joined by some Republicans, voted last month to expand coverage to 4 million more children at a cost of $35 billion over five years. Bush has vetoed the bill.

While the president has called for negotiations on the measure, Democrats and their allies have launched a campaign to pressure Republicans into helping to override the veto. The attempt is scheduled for next week.

The Frosts joined the debate through family acquaintance Vinnie DeMarco, the president of the Maryland Citizens' Health Initiative. DeMarco introduced them to the pro-SCHIP organization Families USA, which put them in touch with Pelosi's office.

Bonnie Frost was driving children Zeke, Graeme and Gemma in Baltimore County in December 2004 when the family SUV hit a patch of black ice and slammed into a tree. Graeme sustained a brain stem injury; Gemma suffered a cranial fracture.

The family relied on SCHIP during the more than five months that the children were hospitalized. Graeme had to learn again to walk and talk, his parents say; he remains weak on his left side and speaks with a lisp. Gemma is blind in her left eye; she has difficulty with memory, learning and speech, and sees a behavioral psychologist to help her deal with her frustration.

"Her personality has changed," Bonnie Frost said yesterday. "She's not the same girl."

Bonnie and Gemma Frost joined Pelosi at the Capitol Hill news conference before the SCHIP vote. Then Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid asked Graeme to record the radio address.

It was the news coverage of that broadcast that set off the blogo- sphere. A pseudonymous contributor to Free Republic cataloged the $20,000 cost of tuition at the Park School, the $160,000 Halsey Frost paid for his warehouse in 1999 and the $485,000 for which a neighbor sold his home in March. Links were provided to photos of the Park School's 44,000-square- foot Wyman Arts Center and the Frosts' 1992 wedding announcement in The New York Times.

Soon strangers were posting accusatory messages describing Halsey Frost as a business owner who lived on a street of half-million-dollar homes, worked out of his own commercial property and paid to send his children to private school, yet still took advantage of government-funded health care.

"Bad things happen to good people, and they cause financial problems and tough choices," Mark Steyn wrote on the National Review Online. "But, if this is the face of the 'needy' in America, then no-one is not needy."

The Redstate contributor was less civil.

"Hang 'em. Publically," the contributor wrote. "Let 'em twist in the wind and be eaten by ravens. Then maybe the bunch of socialist patsies will think twice."

The Frosts say the description of their family's circumstances now circulating is misleading. Halsey, they say, is a self-employed woodworker - he has no employees - while Bonnie works part time for a medical publishing firm. Together, they say, they earn between $45,000 and $50,000 a year.

That would make the Frosts eligible for Maryland's Children's Health Program, which is open to families that earn no more than 300 percent of the federal poverty level, or $82,830 a year for a family of six.

The Frosts declined to show The Sun their 2006 income tax returns, and the state Department of Health and Mental Hygiene would not confirm their enrollment in the program. But John G. Folkemer, the deputy secretary for health care financing, said yesterday that applicants must prove their income levels through Social Security numbers or tax returns to be accepted for coverage.

Folkemer said a family's assets are not considered in determining eligibility. Halsey Frost purchased the family home for $55,000 in 1990, according to city records, and refinanced in 2005, he says, to make improvements to accommodate the return of Graeme and Gemma from the hospital. The 1936 brick rowhouse, on a side street near Patterson Park, has an assessed value of $263,140.

Halsey Frost purchased a 1920 warehouse in East Baltimore for $160,000 in 1999, according to city records. It is assessed at $160,500. Frost says he is still paying off the mortgages on both properties.

The four Frost children depend on financial aid to attend private school, the Frosts say. In addition, they say, Gemma receives money from the city for special education made necessary by her injuries.

Halsey and Bonnie Frost say they still have no health insurance. Bonnie Frost said she priced coverage recently at $1,200 a month.

Malkin wrote that the Democrats' use of Graeme Frost to deliver the radio address was "poster child abuse"; Limbaugh told listeners that Democrats had "filled this kid's head with lies."

Pelosi fired back yesterday.

"I think that the attack on this family is just breaking new ground and stooping to new lows in terms of what happens in Washington, D.C.," she told reporters. "I think it's a sad statement about how bankrupt some of these people are in their arguments against SCHIP that they attack a 12-year-old."

The Frosts say they stand by their support of the State Children's Health Insurance Program.

"I'm just trying to understand this moment of nastiness," Bonnie Frost said. "The nastiness caught me by surprise."

matthew.brown@baltsun.com Sun reporter Lynn Anderson contributed to this article.

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#1. To: All (#0)

A pseudonymous contributor to Free Republic cataloged the $20,000 cost of tuition at the Park School, the $160,000 Halsey Frost paid for his warehouse in 1999 and the $485,000 for which a neighbor sold his home in March. Links were provided to photos of the Park School's 44,000-square- foot Wyman Arts Center and the Frosts' 1992 wedding announcement in The New York Times.

Hmmm. I wonder who would have access to that kind of information.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   9:24:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: aristeides (#1)

I read yesterday that it was Freaker "icwhatudo" or something close to that.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2007-10-10   9:55:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: aristeides (#1)

I found this cross-posted on elPee from FR. Sorry, no link provided to the source.

Did I Really Start A Firestorm in Washington? Myself and Multiple links ^ | 10- 09-07 | ICWHATUDO

Posted on 10/09/2007 9:19:16 AM PDT by icwhatudo

Hello everyone, its been an interesting few days. I had no idea my post about the family used by democrats to push for expansion of the S-CHIP program would cause such a stir. There have been many questions and comments raised about me and my simple Google research that I thought I'd deal with them all on this post if it's ok with the Mods.

My interest in the S-CHIP issue came about because of the way it's portrayed in the media. President Bush's veto was of an EXPANSION of this health insurance program to include higher income families. It would not cut the program, (in fact Bush wants to increase funding), nor would it cause the Frost family to lose their coverage under it.

The Frost family choose to allow their son to give the democrat radio response to the president's veto. They choose to put their family story, picture of their home, and income information in the papers for all to see. Now that I look into the facts of that same story I'm accused of "invading their privacy" or "attacking a 12 year old boy". Could someone from Daily Kos, Think Progress, or Democratic Underground please cut and paste the part of my article that attacked the 12 year old boy?

The Baltimore Sun article about the family mentioned that the son attended Park school. I knew this was an expensive private school so I began to wonder why someone who could send their child there would need others to pay for their health insurance. It led to my use of Google to find out if there was information that the Baltimore Sun left out of the article. All the information I found I linked to in my post.

After posting my article a number of Freepers started emailing the story out to local papers and other blogs, talk show hosts, etc. It really exploded when Mark Steyn of National Review Online posted about it. From there it spread through the blogs including Michelle Malkin and even made it on the Rush Limbaugh's show. Last night ABC news online posted about the "firestorm in Washington" it was causing. Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid was accusing GOP leadership aides of "pushing falsehood" and complained that Republican staffers where passing the information out to reporters.

Left wing sites have begun to hit back, questioning my information. Many are linking to these 5 points from Thinkprogress.org that I will comment on:

"1) Graeme has a scholarship to a private school. The school costs $15K a year, but the family only pays $500 a year."

For all the claims my research was poor...where's your link? $15,000? From my link to the schools tuition page:

Tuition for 2007-2008 Lower School $19,530 Middle School $19,530 Upper School $21,080

Where did you get your information the family was paying $500 per year? Was this from the talking points memo you got from Harry Reid spokesman Jim Manley? Did he tell you how long they’ve had those scholarships? Any idea why the tenant in the commercial building they own, Mike Reilly (who has known the Frosts for 10 years) said See "Update 2:50pm"it was his understanding the children’s grandparents paid the bill?

We can debate the amount they are paying, or the amount the grandparents are contributing, or the amount that is earned through scholarships but the fact remains the family is paying to send their child to a private school while asking others to pay for their health insurance. Are you claiming otherwise?

"2) His sister Gemma attends another private school to help her with the brain injuries that occurred due to her accident. The school costs $23,000 a year, but the state pays the entire cost."

Again no link but I heard this as well. It was why I stated in my article that: "His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school PRIOR to the accident"

Its funny how the left wing echo chamber is seizing on this point to somehow show my information was bad. That somehow I was saying she was still attending the Park School. Will you concede that my statement "His sister Gemma, also severely injured in the accident, attended the same school PRIOR to the accident" is 100% true? At the time they choose to not purchase health insurance, prior to the accident, at least 2 of their kids attended Park school.

"3) They bought their “lavish house” sixteen years ago for $55,000 at a time when the neighborhood was less than safe."

Your information is incorrect (and again fails to provide a link). "They" did not buy the house 16 years ago, Mr. Frost bought the home on his own on 11/30/1990. The couple was married in 1992, and it appears his wife paid him $52,500 to be added to the deed on 09/06/2005. Interesting that on the Department of Assessments and Taxation form under "Principal Residence:" it states "NO". Do they own a second home in addition to the commercial property? Also, please cut and paste from my article where I said they lived in a "Lavish house". Large house-yes, and nice kitchen from the photo.

"4) Last year, the Frost’s made $45,000 combined. Over the past few years they have made no more than $50,000 combined.

Again no link. What is the source of this claim? Not saying their reported income was not as you state, but as Mr. Frost set up a LLC would you concede its possible that reported income could be different than actual access to financial resources? Maybe those more familiar on why people set up LLC's can tell us what creative things can be done with finances this way.

"5) The state of Maryland has found them eligible to participate in the CHIP program."

Exactly! Thanks for making my point. Even with the private school you admit they are partially paying for, even with the home that is not their primary residence, even with the LLC they set up and purchased commercial property with, even with a tenant in the building they own...they still qualify! So why then do we need to expand the program to families with even higher incomes than the Frosts?

I am also a father of 4 and I live in a waterfront house. We have 2 boats and go to the beach for 2 weeks each year. All 4 of my kids go to private school. If the S-CHIP program is expanded...WE WILL QUALIFY! I'd love to use the savings from others paying for my kids health insurance to buy a new motor for my bass boat but is that what we really want from S-CHIP?

A few other points:

Some blogs, radio shows, etc have incorrectly stated that I claimed their house was bought for $485,000 or was worth $500,000 etc. My actual quote on this was:

"The current market value of their improved 3,040 SF home at 104 S Collington Ave is unknown but 113 S COLLINGTON AVE, also an end unit, sold for $485,000 this past March and it was only 2,060 SF."

I found a similar (actually smaller) home a few doors down that recently sold for $485,000. A Freeper early on in my original post linked a zillow estimate of $360,000. The taxation page assesses the home at $263,140 and we all know assessed values for taxes are lower than market price(at least in Maryland). Are there cheaper homes in the area that have not been renovated yet? Sure, but lets not miss the point here. This is not a family of renters, they own not only a 3,040 SF home but a commercial property as well. I'm not faulting them for it, I'm not trying to say they are rich, I'm trying to make people aware of what types of families are CURRENTLY covered by S-CHIP so we can honestly debate if the income ceiling should be raised.

Hmmmm, I really could use that new bass boat motor and the kids really would like a Nintendo Wii ... maybe I'll change my position.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2007-10-10   10:53:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: aristeides (#0)

The Frosts are not very nice people. They grifted off "the system" and they used their child to promote their own political agenda.

The Frosts have more than enough assets and income to buy a proper health insurance policy with a high deductible to cover catastrophic health emergencies. They have more than enough money to buy a proper auto insurance policy that includes a health insurance benefit that would have also contributed to the kid's health care as a result of the accident. Obviously they are CHOOSING to have taxpayers like myself cover their asses and I resent it. The Frosts - uncovered - are the perfect example of people who "game" the system. They take risks because they count on dumb sheeple taxpayers to take care of them.

What the freapers have done may seem crude but what the Frosts did is unforgiveable. I have zero sympathy for the ridicule they are encountering. I have sympathy for the kid because he was only doing what his grifter parents put him up to do and the kid only read what the Dem Party speech writer wrote.

That people here are getting huffy puffy about the messenger rather than the message of this story is beyond me. If you want to be robbed of your hard earned salary by gov't taxes to support the risk taking behavior of people like the Frosts - be my guest - just don't sign up the others of us to support this charade of "it's for the poooooor people ( who own a lovely middle class home as well as commercial property )and their private schooled chilun."

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   10:59:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Fred Mertz (#3)

icwhatudo seems very anxious to have people believe that he did all this on his own, and wasn't put up to it by somebody or something.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   11:00:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: scrapper2 (#4)

They grifted off "the system" and they used their child to promote their own political agenda.

Well said.

"I searched through rebellion, drugs, diets, mysticism, religions, intellectualism and much more, only to begin to find...that truth is basically simple - and feels good, clean and right." - Chick Corea

Tauzero  posted on  2007-10-10   11:10:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: aristeides (#5)

icwhatudo seems very anxious to have people believe that he did all this on his own, and wasn't put up to it by somebody or something.

I think you are missing the point. Who cares who found out the facts about the Frosts' grifting scam? It's the revelations themselves that should be important to us all unless you personally like being a taxpayer dupe who is supporting phonies.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   11:11:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: scrapper2 (#4)

The Frosts have more than enough assets and income to buy a proper health insurance policy with a high deductible to cover catastrophic health emergencies.

I read elsewhere that Mrs. Frost priced health insurance at $1,200 per month. Forty dollars a day is a lot of scratch if you ask me; especially if you are feeding a family of six.

Fred Mertz  posted on  2007-10-10   11:11:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Fred Mertz (#8)

Mrs. Frost priced health insurance at $1,200 per month

This is the problem, and private insurance companies can refuse those with expensive preexisting conditions.

Over half of all personal bankruptcies are due to major medical bills. BTW, PPOs that pay 80%, are often insufficient for any long-term illness or hospital stay.

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-10-10   11:17:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: scrapper2 (#7)

I would not like it if it turned out to be the case that taxpayers' money was used to dig up dirt on private individuals. As someone who was formerly in military signals intelligence, when we took seriously the rules against doing that sort of thing, I tend to be sensitive about such matters.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   11:23:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Fred Mertz (#8)

I read elsewhere that Mrs. Frost priced health insurance at $1,200 per month. Forty dollars a day is a lot of scratch if you ask me; especially if you are feeding a family of six.

a. First off that's bull about what the monthly premiums for insurance policy with a high deductible for catastrophic health emergencies would cost. (Ditto for a proper auto insurance policy and a home insurance policy). That's the first thing anyone who has 1/2 a brain would look for and as a self-employed businessman I would suggest to you that Mr. Frost knew this at the time but CHOSE not to pursue this avenue.

b. Also being a self-employed businessman Mr. Frost was the perfect example of someone who could have [should have] taken advantage of a Health Savings Account to offset the costs for out of pocket medical costs that would accumulate prior to a high deductible health insurance policy kicking in. HSA's are also tax deductible which is an added benefit. Mr. Frost CHOSE not to pursue this avenue.

c. Mr. and Mrs. Frost were grifters. They refused to make any adjustments to accomodate their financial situation because they knew that "others" would take care of them. The Frosts liked living the middle class suburban life style - that's why they did not even bother looking at cheaper homes and cashing in on their accumulated equity in their current home.

Nothing speaks louder to me of their arrogance, their desire to live above their economic comfort zone, feeling smug that others would cover them than the fact that they eschewed public school for their kids [ public schools are for commoners] and took advantage of scholarships at a toney private school. What a laugh. No one here seems to realize that the Frosts stole $ that private schools have in place to assist the truly poor and typically visible minority students. The Frosts are neither truly poor nor are they visible minority individuals. And let me tell you, attending private school - even on scholarship - is a pricey way to go - books, food plan, school excursions, uniforms - that's why the truly poor think twice about applying for scholarships at private schools. But the Frosts didn't think twice because they knew they could afford those extra costs.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   11:52:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: aristeides (#10) (Edited)

I would not like it if it turned out to be the case that taxpayers' money was used to dig up dirt on private individuals. As someone who was formerly in military signals intelligence, when we took seriously the rules against doing that sort of thing, I tend to be sensitive about such matters.

Nice try, ari, but no cigar.

If you were truly "sensitive" about taxpayers money being used for fraudulent reasons, then you'd be more upset about the Frosts' grifting "the system" than about how the revelations about their faux background came to light.

I'd suggest to you that the Frosts wasted a heck of alot more of our taxpayer money than the guy/gal who may have spent 5 seconds time looking into their financial background.

***The tracking of the Frosts' financial where-with-all should have been done at the time they applied for the SCHIP benefits. Obviously it wasn't so if it has been done now, big deal, better late than never.***

And if it weren't for all this MSM, Dem Party, and Dem supporters chest-beating and croc tears generated confusion about who's more loathsome - the messenger or the message - I would like a criminal investigation done on the Frosts and if necessary have them pay back some of the $ they gamed into the SCHIP "pot" so truly poor and indigent families are not robbed of SCHIP funds in the future.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   12:03:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: scrapper2 (#12) (Edited)

I've already told you I was in military signals intelligence. I get upset when I see that system misused for partisan purposes, especially in a way that has police-state overtones.

Whereas you seem not to mind that sort of thing.

You constantly accuse me of being a partisan Democrat. Could that be a bit of projection? You certainly seem to support campaigns supported by the administration and its camp followers. Even this public relations debacle attacking the Frosts.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   12:09:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: aristeides (#13) (Edited)

I've already told you I was in military signals intelligence. I get upset when I see that system misused for partisan purposes, especially in a way that has police-state overtones.

Whereas you seem not to mind that sort of thing.

You constantly accuse me of being a partisan Democrat. Could that be a bit of projection? You certainly seem to support campaigns supported by the administration and its camp followers. Even this public relations debacle attacking the Frosts.

a. Fyi, I'm a Ron Paul supporter because he is a traditional conservative and constitutionalist. I've made no secret that I am a traditional conservative constitutionalist myself. Ron Paul supports small government and self- sufficiency of the individual. I like that! He is opposed to government getting into our lives unnecessarily whether it be covert police state surveillence or nanny statist entitlements that take away individual responsibility. I like that!

Why you otoh pretend to support Ron Paul is a mystery to me especially in light of your continued drum beat of shock and anger that grifters like the Frosts have been revealed to be the middle class gamers of the system that they are. Your support of their weasling their way to use and abuse of tax supported entitlements, their reprehensible abuse of their child to promote a Dem Party nanny state agenda has me concluding that you are a Dem bleeding heart liberal statist regardless of what you like to call yourself on this board.

Did you know that there is no "means test" in Maryland to qualify for SCHIP aid? If you are suggesting that the freaper who "outed" them was a government employee, how is that wrong? What is wrong is that this "means test" was not done in Maryland in the first place. I'm pissed to learn that some states have been less than fiscally responsible in the way they have doled out federal tax dollars for the SCHIP programs. But you're not - hey que sera sera, let the rich pay. But I got news for you - it's middle class tax payers like me and you who are being gouged by the Frosts. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Did you know that in order to get financing for commercial property like what Mr. and Mrs. Frost own [in addition to their lovely brick fronted middle class house] that they would have had the means to put together a significant amount of CASH as their down payment? I would suggest to you that there are many many middle class families who pay their own freight and whose tax dollars have been applied to the SCHIP pot who DO NOT HAVE THE EQUITY that the Frosts have.

Perhaps you need to read this blurb from a WSJ article that was written about the "folly" of the existing SCHIP plan, never mind what the expanded plan would do.

"...Senate Democratic leaders recently unveiled plans to dramatically expand taxpayer-funded health insurance through the State Children's Health Insurance Program (SCHIP) -- even as 14 states are running out of money to fund coverage in the program now, says Grace-Marie Turner, president of the Galen Institute.

One reason SCHIP is in trouble is because it has allowed states to provide taxpayer-subsidized health care for adults and middle-income families, even when poor children go without coverage. For instance:

In 2005, 87 percent of Minnesota's SCHIP enrollees were adults, as were 66 percent of those enrolled in Wisconsin's program.

In Arizona -- which has one of the highest rates of uninsured children in the nation -- 56 percent of those enrolled in SCHIP were adults.

In addition, SCHIP funds are often used to insure children who are not in low- income families, says Turner:

In New Jersey, for example, Schip covers children whose parents earn up to three-and-a-half times the poverty line -- an amount that exceeds $72,000 a year.

Sen. Hillary Clinton and Rep. John Dingell recently announced their own bill that would subsidize coverage for kids in families earning up to four times the poverty level -- or nearly $83,000 for a family of four.

So what should be done? First, adults should not be eligible, says Turner. In addition, Schip should focus on America's poorest families; the program should assist only families who earn up to twice the poverty line, as the law originally intended.

Finally, it must be easier for states to utilize SCHIP as a premium-support program. It is relatively inexpensive to add children to family policies, but by making the process so bureaucratic, employer-provided plans are underutilized and families are split into private and public coverage plans.

Source: Grace-Marie Turner, "Health Insurance Folly," Wall Street Journal, March 17, 2007.

b. As I said earlier, if you want to be the taxpayer dupe who supports the grifting scam of the Frosts by getting huffy puffy about how the revelations were done - be my guest. Just don't sign me up for your hear no evil, see no evil "taxpayer dupe" SCHIP scheme.

The fact finding should have been done 4 years ago when the Frosts applied for SCHIP benefits but better late than never. And frankly Mr and Mrs Frost were negligent in their care of their family members. They did not purchase a high deductible catastrophic health insurance plan nor does it appear that they had proper auto insurance with a health insurance rider. These are basic things that adults chose to do when they head a family with child dependents.

In many ways, that the Dem Party picked the Frost Family to promote an expansion of an already flawed SCHIP plan was ironic but perfect just desserts to torpedo the Dems' expanded SCHIP proposal. I love it!

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   13:12:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: All Ron Paul Supporters (#14) (Edited)

I'm pinging this post to All - in case you did not realize this ...Ron Paul voted "no" to House Bill 976 - he gave the thumbs down to re-authorize and expand the SCHIP program which I agree with 100%.

www.ron-paul.for-presiden...-house-vote-vote-906-h-r- 976.html

Also read the information regarding the Frosts and how states have abused their fiscal responsibilites regarding the intent of how SCHIP funds were to be doled out per post #14.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   13:31:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: scrapper2 (#14)

You continue to attack the Frosts. I know you're in the company of the Wall Street Journal editorial board in such views. I know you're in the company of Bush and his administration. I know you're in the company of the FReepers. I suspect you're in the company of very few others.

I heard Ron Paul speak on SCHIP just the other day on the radio. He said that he was against it at this time for budgetary reasons, but, if ways could be found to save money on the defense budget, he would be willing to consider it. He certainly did not attack the Frosts.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   13:56:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: aristeides (#16) (Edited)

You continue to attack the Frosts. I know you're in the company of the Wall Street Journal editorial board in such views. I know you're in the company of Bush and his administration. I know you're in the company of the FReepers. I suspect you're in the company of very few others.

I heard Ron Paul speak on SCHIP just the other day on the radio. He said that he was against it at this time for budgetary reasons, but, if ways could be found to save money on the defense budget, he would be willing to consider it. He certainly did not attack the Frosts.

Nice try at character assassination and innuendo, Counsellor, but you still get an F in your malpractice litigation course because you are not too deft or subtle.

You did not bother to rebut any of the points I brought up in post #14 because you know the Frosts actions are indefensible. Instead you try to malign me by using the worn out ploy of guilt by association. AIPAC tried that with Mearsheimer and Walt - well, if David Duke and Mearsheimer and Walt both say AIPAC has undue influence on our foreign policy ...ergo it follows that Mearsheimer and Walt and David Duke are all anti-semites. WRONG.

I don't always agree with WSJ. Fyi, I'm an independent thinker and I read broadly to get information and I don't care whether my sources for FACT to disabuse FALLACY are WSJ or NPR or other political discussion boards. That you only read journals that support your pre-existing beliefs then that's your perogative and frankly your problem - but don't knock me for being open minded and reading broadly. You can't pose a credible defense against the facts disclosed in the WSJ regarding abuse of the SCHIP so as is your usual want - you try to kill the messenger because the message is "inconvenient" and "uncomfortable" albeit true for a person with your stalwart bleeding heart mindset.

The Frosts deserve to be assailed for their ACTIONS. They gamed the system - the 1997 SCHIP legislation was passed to help children whose parent or parents own no assets and whose annual income is below the poverty level. Clearly the Frost Family do not fit that description of "need" or qualifiers. The Frosts gouged tax payers, they misappropriated $ that was meant for POOR kids, they were negligent in not providing their children with a proper private health insurance plan that had a high deductible, they may not have had a proper auto insurance plan that included medical benefits in case of an accident. Furthermore, instead of allotting some cash reserves to an Health Savings Account to offset the out of pocket expenses they would be expected to pay themselves with a high deductible health insurance plan, the Frosts used their cash reserves to plunk down a significant down payment on their commercial property purchase to get more desirable financing [ would that all of us had that option - to own BOTH residential and commercial assets]. Nor did the Frosts even consider taking out a second mortgage on their significant appreciated residential property to put some cash into a Health Savings Account.

What you report about Ron Paul's reasons for voting "no" to HR 976 is heresay...what you thought you heard on some program is not credible. I judge Ron Paul's intent and his position on SCHIP by his actions. Ron Paul voted "NO" on the HR bill to re-new and expand SCHIP. Furthermore, for your general information, previously Ron Paul had voted "yes" on establishing tax-exempt medical savings accounts - something that the Frosts had the where-with-all to pursue but CHOSE not to. End of story.

That Ron Paul "did not attack" the Frosts means what exactly? Apart from some rapid freapers, who is "attacking" the Frosts? You mistake the verb "EXPOSE" for "attack."

Was Dr. Paul even asked his opinion on the revelations about the Frosts - how they gamed the system and how they abused their child by letting him be used as a publicity pawn by the Dems? I doubt that Dr. Paul, if given the whole story about the Frosts, would support their behavior. Only die-hard bleeding hearts would continue to support the Frosts in light of the newly revealed facts about their unconsciable behavior as well as about how many states have been fiscally irresponsible as to howthey have distributed SCHIP funds.

Believe what you want, ari but I believe the truth and the Frosts deserve all the negative publicity they are getting from all quarters - they brought it on themselves. If there's a family that is crying out to be audited by the Feds for misappropriation of tax dollars, it's the Frosts.

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   15:53:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: scrapper2 (#17)

I simply can not believe this is what the Republican party has become. I just can’t. It just makes me sick to think all those years of supporting this party, and this is what it has become. Even if you don’t like the S-Chip expansion, it is hard to deny what Republicans are- a bunch of bitter, nasty, petty, snarling, sneering, vicious thugs, peering through people’s windows so they can make fun of their misfortune.

I’m registering Independent tomorrow.

Oh, so now you're calling for auditing the Frosts? Way to go!!

You confirm all of (former Republican blogger) John Cole's complaints about the behavior of "conservatives" in this Frost matter.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-10   16:07:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: aristeides (#18) (Edited)

Oh, so now you're calling for auditing the Frosts? Way to go!!

That was at the tail end of my lengthy post, but because you have no rebuttal to any of my points, way to go, Counsellor, you confirm the F I gave you earlier. I guess there's nothing left for you to do but take one sentence out of context...the worn out, shabby, but ultimate defense tool for the indefensible.

I have no interest in debating any futher with a Dem Party apparatchuk whose bleeding heart mindset is fixed and whose only "tool" for argument is transparent character assassination ploys.

See you around, ari. I've wasted enough time dealing with your closed mind.

Postscript: Yes, I believe the Frosts should be audited. And why not? They took taxpayer supported funding - when someone does that they should expect that they might be audited - that's part of the deal. If the Frosts have nothing to hide and if they did nothing wrong, then the audit would show that they were deserving of accessing public funds. Individuals with less "irregularities" who have used tax payer funds have been audited. And certainly in the Frosts' case - with their assorted real estate assets - both residential and commercial - and their small business venture in addition to their annual salary, I think theirs is a case that clearly warrants further investigation. You take public $ then you better be able to prove you needed it. That's just common sense. But someone like you, ari, probably thinks that the public tit should be used and abused as folks see fit - heck it's not your personal funds that are being accessed. Que sera sera...

scrapper2  posted on  2007-10-10   16:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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