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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Christ Was Not A Jew
Source: israelect
URL Source: http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ChristNotAJew.htm
Published: Jun 3, 2005
Author: WillieMartin
Post Date: 2005-06-03 09:45:20 by Itisa1mosttoolate
Keywords: Christ
Views: 2197
Comments: 183

Christ Was Not A Jew

Jesus Christ Was Not A Jew: Does this shock you? We certainly hope it does. For it is time that Christians woke up to the fact that they have been brainwashed by the Jews with the "big lie technique" to the falsehood that Christ was a Jew.

We ask you now, to set aside all prejudice in the matter and as God states in the Bible, "Come let us reason together." (Isaiah 1:18)

There are two ways that a person can be a Jew; racially (which means a cross between the descendants of Esau and True Israelites 49; There is Edom [Esau is called Edom in Genesis 36:8. And Edom is in 'Modern Jewry' Jewish Encyclopedia, 1925 edition, Vol. 5, p. 41) or religiously. Let us now see whether Christ fits either of these categories.

Ninety49;five percent of the people that we know as Jews today, are mongrels; they are a product of the amalgamation of many races. The majority of the Jews are Asiatics, of Mongolian, stock, the descendants of the tribes of Khazars of Russia who accepted Judaism in 740 A.D.

They are the descendants of Cain; No racial Jew is an Israelite. That's right, we repeat, NO RACIAL JEW IS AN ISRAELITE. The Bible itself identifies the Jews as the seed of Cain thereby identfying Satan as their father. (John 8:44)

Christ said to the Jews, in the 23rd chapter of Matthew, verses 3349;35: "You serpents, you generation (race) of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore behold I send you a prophet, wise men and scribes and some of them you shall kill and crucify and some of them yuo shall scourge in your synagogues and persecute them from city to city that upon you may come all the righteous blood that has ever been shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel" (Note that carefully).

Here Christ is saying to the Jews that they are guilty of the murder of Abel. Jesus could not have said this unless the Jews were/are the descendants of Cain. Christ goes on to say: "Unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Brachias who you slew between the temple and the alter." It's very plan! And it's in your Bible.

Christ said to the Jews "You are guilty of the death of righteous Abel because you rfather Cain murdered him." It is also well for you to note here that Jesus further blames these Jews for all the deaths of righteous people from the beginning of time right down to this day. This is not a statement of man but of our Redeem, our King, our Savior.

Christ never lied and spoke only the truth; every word contained in the sixty49;six books of the Bible is the Word of Almighty God. Are the Jews then God's Chosen People as some "fogbound, lying, deceiving, Judeo49;Chrisian Clergy" would have us believe? Far from it! Rather than being God's Chosen People, they are Satan's Children! Let us turn for proof of this, to the eighth chapter of John the 42nd verse. The Jews have just said to Christ, we are God's Chosen People, God is our Father. Christ did not answer the Jews the way ninety49;nine percent of our Judeo49;Christian preachers would do today. Rather, He said in the 42nd vers, "If God were your Father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God. Neitherdid I come of myself, but He sent Me. Why is it that you do not understand my speech. It is because yuo cannot hear my words." (Read carefully the 44th verse) where Christ said to the Jews, "Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks oa lie, he speaks of his own for he is a liar and the father of it."

The Word "Jew"

A Jew is a person whose religion is Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism). The word Jew is not found in the original texts of the Scriptures, but in many English Bibles the word is an incorrect rendering of the latin word Judaeus, the Greek word Ioudaios, and the Hebrew word Yehudi. Although not found in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures, the word Jew is an English rendering most often incorrectly translated from Yahudah, that is, referring to one belonging to one of the tribes of Israel (Yisrael) called Yahudah (Judah), a Yahudite. The word Jews, the plural of the word Jew, is incorrectly translated most often from the word Yahudim (descendants of the tribe of Yahudah).

The letter 'J' was not in general use until after the 17th century as used in many Bibles for the word 'Jew' to substitute for the correct word Yahudite, or Yahudim. In some English Bibles we have received the word Juda, also an error in translation because the word derives from the Greek Iudaios, which in the English would be Judaios. Judaios was none other then a Greek diety (see W.H. Roscher's lexicon of mythology).

As used in the Scriptures, the word 'Jew' is sometimes translated to refer to a Yudean (Judean) a native or inhabitant (which includes many diverse races and people groups living in the region) of Yudea (Judea). As the word 'American' includes many diverse peoples living in the Country called 'America'. The word very often refers to an advocate or adherent to the religion of the Yahudim, (Judaism), or it may in a few cases refer to a literal descendant of Abraham, Issac, Jacob/Israel, one of the descent of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah).

In present day generic usage, the word has no relationship to the Hebrew or the Greek translated words in the Old or New Covenant Scriptures, and is associated primarily through an adherent or advocate of Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism) the religion, but not through ethnics or race. Basically, a Jew is anyone who decides to call himself/herself a Jew. Within Jewish Circles, there are two other official ways one can become a Jew. One can be born from a mother who calls herself a Jew, or one can 'convert' to become a Jew. (A convert is called a ger which literally means stranger). Being born a Jew is pretty simple. If one's mother is Jewish (of the Jewish religion) then he/she is considered a Jew, if one's mother is not of the Jewish religion, then neither is the child officially a Jew. (It doesn't matter what the father is).

Modern Jew49;dah49;ism began about 1000 AD, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany the 'Father' of the Ashkenazi Jews, which constitute approximately 90% of the worlds Jews. Modern Jew49;dah49;ism is not the Scriptural worship system of the Yahudim of the Scriptures.

Jews do not actively encourage conversion; to a large degree they discourage it. This is the reason Jews have never had missionaries trying to convert non49;Jews. They want the convert but the convert must be 100% committed to being a Jew. Discouraging conversion helps to filter out those 'lacking the proper degree' of commitment.

If the non49;Jew still wants to become a Jew, the male is circumcised. After he is healed, he immerses himself in a mikva. A mikva is a special pool of water which is used for many religious purposes in the religion of the Jews. (It must be made according to very specific rules). A female convert only has to immerse herself.

The term 'Jew', has come to be used synonymous with the term 'Israel, Israelite', however, this is error. Scriptural Israelites were never called Jews, (Yahudim), unless they were so associated by their religion. Most modern Jews are not of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah), and are not 'Israelites.' They are called Jew(s) because of their religion, Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism).

Jew, Ashkenazi (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews)

After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), the Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. They prospered during the years in Assyria, and became a huge number of people. Outgrowing the land area they eventually migrated North through the 'Caucasus Mountains', and into central and Western Europe forming the European Nations, and are known as Caucasians 'whites.' As these Israelites migrated they influenced many people groups, no longer having an organized religious priesthood, and not having a nation or national identity, these migrating people, descendants of Jacob/Israel nevertheless passed on their bits and pieces of the ancient Scriptural worship system which was corrupted through their many years of captive living in pagan Assyria. During the 7th century A.D. these bits and pieces of the corrupt worship system became a form of Jew49;dah49;ism and was embraced by the Khazar King, his court, and the Khazar military class, who are descendants of Ashkenaz. This new religion of Jew49;dah49;ism, became the religion of the Khazars, and forms most of modern cultic European Jewry.

In common parlance the present day 'Jew' is synonymous with the 'Ashkenazi Khazar Jew'. Scripture refers to the Ashkenaz in Gen. 10:3, and in I Chron. 1:6, as one of the sons of Gomer, who was a son of Japheth, son of Noah. Ashkenaz is also a brother of Togarmah (and a nephew of Magog) who the Kazars, according to King Joseph, (of the Kazars) claimed as their ancestor. The people who refer to themselves as Ashkenazi Jews are not Israelites, and they are not Semites because they do not descend from Noah's son Shem. They are Ashkenazi Khazar Jews, who descend from Noah's son Japheth. Approximately 8549;90 percent of the Jews in the world call themselves Ashkenazi Jews.

Present49;day Jew49;dah49;ism, was formally formed into it's basic cultic form about 1,000 years ago, (according to the Jews), when 49; Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany, published a ban on bigamy. This marks the recorded beginning of the Ashkenazi Jews*, and Franco49;German halachic** creativity. The word 'Ashkenazi' is not Hebrew for the word Germany, although the name has become 'associated' with Germany because many Ashkenazi Jews organized in Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Mongolia.

*Ashkenazi 49; (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews). **halachic 49; loose 'interpretations' of Old Testament laws

Jew, Sephardim (Spanish Jews)

After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), The Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. The King then imported people groups from his country (Assyria) to replace the exiled Israelites to maintain and control the land of the exiles. The Sepharvaim were one of these people groups, along with Cuthahites, Arrahites, 2 Kings 17:24. They mingled with each other, along with Edomites, who had migrated Northward from Idumea (field of Edom), after Israel and the Yahudim (Judeans) were exiled. Adad and Anu were ancient gods of Babylonia and were also the gods of these pagan Sepharvaim people. The Sephardim Yudeans (Judeans) are a mongrel people whose descent is directly from a mixture of this Assyrian people group and the remnant of escaped Yudeans (Judeans) along with Edomites who had migrated into the land originally occupied by the Kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Yahudah (Judah). This made their religion also of mixed character, 2 Kings 17:2449;41.

The people known as "Spanish Jews," are descended from the Canaanites, the people who colonized Carthage. Following its sack by Rome, they adopted this Sepharvaim, or Sephardim name for deceptive purposes and constitute 5% of world Jewry today. The Sephardim Jews speak Latino, a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew. The Sephardim Jews migrated West through Egypt, then North into Spain from Judea and Samaria before, during, and after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE,. This migration became known as the "Jewish 'Sephardim' Diaspora". Today, these Sephardim Jews are still using their ancient adopted name Sephardim (the spelling is a transliteration into English and not of significance). They settled in Spain, Portugal, the Eastern Mediterranean, Italy, the Balkans, Salonica and Macedonia, eventually emigrating into France and England, and Western Europe.

The Sepharviam Yudeans (Judeans) were known as Samaritans during the time of Messiah, because they were living in Samaria, which was the area from which Israel was removed by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V. The twelve apostles during the time if Messiah, were instructed not to enter the cities of the Samaritans, Matt. 10:5. Although the True Israelites of tribal descent, living in Samaria did received the witness of Yahshua and the message of redemption from the apostles, Acts, 1:8. Some of the mixed Samaritans also became proselytes to the Christian faith, Acts 8:449;25.

The Sephardim Jews, (or Sepharviam Jews) are not of Israelite blood; they are not of the tribe of Yahudah although they were called Yudeans, 'Judeans', as an inhabitant, i.e. person living in the land originally occupied by the tribe of Yahudah of Israel). Their descent is mixed from Edom/Esau Canaanite stock. The Sephardim Jews, like the Ashkenazi Khazar Jews are not a Semitic people. The word Sephardim is not a Hebrew word for Spain, although the name has become 'associated' with Spain because many Sephardim Jews organized in Spain.

Jew49;dah49;ism, (modern 'Judaism')

Jew49;dah49;ism, is a cultic (ritual49;istic) religion which originated approximately 1000 CE, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz Germany through the publishing of his 'halachic creativity' (interpretation of Old Covenant laws), he thereby established the beginning of the modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism. Today the religion is also greatly influenced by the Babylonian Talmud, an ancient Pagan ritual49;listic system of various extreme opinions, interpretations, codes, rules, and regulations.

The modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism has nothing in common with the Scriptural Cultic system of worship which was completely destroyed by Messiah as a religious system in 70 CE at the destruction of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), Herod's Temple, and through the establishment of the New Covenant through Yahshua Messiah. Christianity, as a religious system of Faith, replaced the ancient system of Cultic (ritual49;istic) sacrificial worship.

Jewish

A term incorrectly applied to reflect anything pertaining to a Yahudite, a descendant of the tribe of Yahudah. In common use, the term 'Jewish' is now applied to things pertaining to the Jews. Scriptural accuracy has no bearing on the use of the modern term 'Jewish'.See also the word 'Israel'

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 118.

#1. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#0)

This is a good example of really bad writing as the author can't seem to stick to a point and develop it. It is also an example of a bad progaganda. Jesus was a Jew as were his parents. The author doesn't want to accept this PROVABLE fact.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-03   9:59:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: fatidic, Itisa1mosttoolate (#1)

Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 contains the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Matthew recorded Joseph's lineage. Luke recorded the family tree of Mary. Wikipedia may be a little more accurate.

NOLAJBS  posted on  2005-06-03   10:10:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: NOLAJBS, Ittalmosttoolate (#2)

NOLAJBS, did you mean to call me a Nazi too?

I think the reason the two genologies differ is that one is for Mary and the other is for Joseph.

Itsalmostoolate, why would you want to believe that Jesus is not a Jew and use such silly explanations to support this belief?

It comes down to either choosing to believe those who make claims that Jesus wasn't a Jew or believing the Bible. I have choosen to believe the Bible as i have investigated its reliability many times on many issues and it has held up to my hard questions.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-03   13:49:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: fatidic (#6)

I think the reason the two genologies differ is that one is for Mary and the other is for Joseph.

Agreed.. for one reveals his Davidic tenealogy through Mary.. and the other through Joseph, for as Joseph was his adoptive father and according to the Law Jesus would also receive inheritance through Joseph..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-03   13:59:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Zipporah (#8)

Agreed.. for one reveals his Davidic tenealogy through Mary.. and the other through Joseph, for as Joseph was his adoptive father and according to the Law Jesus would also receive inheritance through Joseph..

Seconded (is that a real word?)

Jesus WAS a Jew. And I am not at all sure why this is such a big deal.

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-06-04   8:27:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#53)

Jesus WAS a Jew. And I am not at all sure why this is such a big deal.

Not sure .. other than admitting that Jesus was a Jew takes issue with their world view..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-04   8:35:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Zipporah (#54)

Not sure .. other than admitting that Jesus was a Jew takes issue with their world view..

Trying to make Jesus a Jew is like placing a square peg in a round hole, avoids his divinity, and the whole notion of the unblemished sacrifice ... besides screwing with my world view ... Ha !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-04   8:41:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: noone222, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, Diana, fatidic, Don, Tauzero, Barak, CAPPSMADNESS (#55)

besides screwing with my world view

Regarding noone222's "world view" (which he doesn't want screwed with) noone222 and Itisa1mosttoolate are posting "Christian Identity" material authored by Wille Martin, a leader of the Christian Identity cult.

Willie Martin's reference materials are outlined at: The Christian Israel (Identity) Truth. Here are a few titles therefrom:

Willie Martin's "bible study" materials are also promulgated by the Christian Party. Here is Willie Martin (now a physicist and cosmologist as well a bible teacher) at http://christianparty.net/ einsteinmartin.htm on Albert Einstein:

When we actually examine the life of Albert Einstein, WE FIND THAT HIS ONLY BRILLIANCE LIES IN HIS ABILITY TO PLAGIARIZE AND STEAL OTHER PEOPLE=S IDEAS, PASSING THEM OFF AS HIS OWN (A typical Jewish expertise). Einstein's education, or lack thereof, is an important part of this story.

Willie Martin's theology ('Christ was a caucasian', 'USA is restored Israel', 'Jesus was not a Jew', etc) and his bible exegesis is so bad and distorted that in the words of Wolfgang Pauli, "It's not right. It's not even wrong. " I may (as I did above in post #9 address some of the more silly arguments offered by Martin/noone22. But for now, I may offer some thoughts in addition to Zipporah's answers to to Diana's questions.

My purpose in this post was only to expose the underlying agenda in Willie Martin's writing, and provide lurkers with some links where they can review Martin's writing's for themselves. This may help to place the arguments being offered in a recognizable context.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-04   10:41:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Starwind, Zipporah (#62)

My purpose in this post was only to expose the underlying agenda in Willie Martin's writing, and provide lurkers with some links where they can review Martin's writing's for themselves. This may help to place the arguments being offered in a recognizable context.

I very much appreciate your taking the time to respond to so much distortion that it is difficult to know where to begin. Thank you, Starwind.

Since it is obvious that those who proclaim patently obvious distortions and lies are not honest in their search for understanding and truth, i think it is best not to get sucked into a point-by-point rebuttal of their lies as you then enter their distored reality of weird presuppostions. Where will it end for as soon as you rebutt one lie, they pop up with more--it's easier to make things up as you go than honestly examining the text for clues to obtaining an accurate understanding. Notice how these dishonest, dishonorable ones ignore what is inconvienent and disturbing to their hateful world view and rely on extra-biblical sources to support their prejudices.

There are many points of belief and conviction where honest, truth-seeking individuals can disagree based on differing understandings of biblical texts, and we can come together here to share reasons, but this vile so called "Christian" identity movement is not one of them as their fruits reveal. I would not want this forum to be identified with such movements as we are then all tainted by their hatreds and distructive agenda.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-04   11:17:16 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: fatidic, Zipporah, Christine (#66)

Zipporah: One cannot follow Christ Jesus and reject His own words..for then you are following 'another' Christ..

Amen.

Fatidic: best not to get sucked into a point-by-point rebuttal of their lies as you then enter their distored reality of weird presuppostions. Where will it end for as soon as you rebutt one lie, they pop up with more.

Yes. Much like battling a Hydra. Rather than attmept to cut off each head, just go for the heart. Expose the big lie, rather than each convoluted distortion.

I would not want this forum to be identified with such movements as we are then all tainted by their hatreds and distructive agenda.

That would be tragic. Yet another forum rent by the enemy's hatred and manipulative lies.

Our Lord exhorts us: "you are in the midst of wolves; be wise as serpents, yet gentle as doves" (Mat 10:16)

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-04   11:30:28 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: Starwind (#71)

Zipporah: One cannot follow Christ Jesus and reject His own words..for then you are following 'another' Christ..

Agreed: So what about when He said to the Pharisees (Talmudic Rabbis) Ye are of your FATHER the DEVIL and the lusts thereof ye do ... he was a "MURDERER" from the beginning (reference to the 1st murderer, Cain) and the truth does not abide in you for he (their father) is a liar and the FATHER of it (reference to the Father of lies the serpent/satan).

noone222  posted on  2005-06-04   11:44:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: noone222 (#74)

So what about when He said to the Pharisees (Talmudic Rabbis) Ye are of your FATHER the DEVIL and the lusts thereof ye do

Read your own words. Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. He was speaking to their spiritual leadership from Satan.

Christ did not say all twelve tribes of Israel (Hebrews, Israelites, Jews whatever name you wish to use) are of their father the devil. He was speaking to and about the Pharisees, castigating them for their religious falsehoods.

But you already knew that.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-04   11:54:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Starwind (#79)

But you already knew that.

He was speaking to the children of satan ... otherwise he was a politician ... not God. (I don't think God needs to use rhetoric to make His point.)

Otherwise maybe he was kidding ... just joking around, trying to look important.

When one considers that God spoke and "nothing" became "everything" ... one must also consider how careful God must be when speaking. When Christ told those little serpents who and what they were ... he was speaking in the physical ... not the spiritual !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-04   19:50:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: noone222 (#104)

He was speaking to the children of satan ... otherwise he was a politician ... not God. (I don't think God needs to use rhetoric to make His point.)

Otherwise maybe he was kidding ... just joking around, trying to look important.

When one considers that God spoke and "nothing" became "everything" ... one must also consider how careful God must be when speaking. When Christ told those little serpents who and what they were ... he was speaking in the physical ... not the spiritual !

Not so.. Jesus was speaking of their spiritual condition.. for what did He say? My kingdom is NOT of this world..

The people wanted to make Jesus King they too thought His purpose was physical.. so: "When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone" (John 6:15)...

Repeatedly scripture tells us that the inheritance is to those of FAITH.. the seed of Abraham are those of faith.. therefore, if Jesus was speaking of the physical.. then would it not be said that those who inherit the promises of Abraham be due to genetics rather than of faith?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-04   20:13:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: Zipporah (#105)

Not so.. Jesus was speaking of their spiritual condition.. for what did He say? My kingdom is NOT of this world..

The people wanted to make Jesus King they too thought His purpose was physical ...

then would it not be said that those who inherit the promises of Abraham be due to genetics rather than of faith?

The "My Kingdom is not of this world" is a statement made to Pilate at another time under different circumstances altogether. Pilate wasn't a Pharisee. What about when he told the Pharisees that their teachings made His Father's Laws of no effect, was that "spiritual" too ?

The Pharisees didn't want to make Him King, they wanted Him dead !

The debate that has gone on forever related to Faith vs. Grace isn't the one we were having. I'm not completely settled on that one. However, I have a theory relative to genetics. An earlier discussion on this thread mentioned "redemption" ... In "common law", which came to us from Great Britain and was part of their culture from ancient times, and was even known in Biblical times, redemption was a legal situation wherein a family member could take the place of another family member in paying the price for a crime. Doesn't the Bible say we were paid for with a price and wasn't that price the death of Christ?

The possibility that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" should not be ignored. I'll be the last one to say "God" can't do whatever He chooses, He being the Potter and me the clay. This scenario gets into whether one conceives predestination and free will as compatible. DNA and genetic markers sure might help when the "harvest time" comes, and we know that genetic predispositions exist for many things, including life-span and disease.

The teachings of James and Paul are at variance, one teaching works, the other teaching grace. James writings weren't placed into the Bible until 500 A.D. James stayed in Jerusalem and Paul went to the gentiles (nations). Luther castigated James and supported Paul. (I honestly don't know for sure but do know that Jesus stated he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill it, while also saying not a jot or tittle of the law would change, and scripture also says that God never changes, being the same yesterday, today and forever.)

Sometimes I think it's presumptuous of us to have these debates. In the end it isn't going to matter what each of us thinks because ultimately "THERE IS TRUTH" whether we have it exactly right or not. I only try to keep my mind free from the indoctrination that I received from the Catholic Church, which has little bearing on truth when compared to scriptures.

Paul stated: "Study the scriptures to show thyself approved" ... is this not works in some degree ?

One last thing: Many scriptures have God referring to "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" ... isn't this a physical reference ... and if not why do we have this flesh to lug around ? This is strictly food for thought. John, the one considered to be the one Christ loved or his "insider" favorite, wrote from Patmos of the false prophet that would convince many to worship the beast, and that there were anti-christs among us even at that time. Paul was a pharisee, learned under Gamaliel, the most learned of all Pharisees, and Paul never walked with Jesus. While John is writng about the destruction of those accepting the Mark of the Beast being imposed upon people by some "govt" authority in Revelations, Paul is writing that we should submit to all government authority in Romans 13. This is a problem area for me. Faith, as we have generally been instructed through churchianity, is to believe in Christ as the Savior that was born of a virgin, suffered died and rose from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Satan believes, will he be saved ?

noone222  posted on  2005-06-05   7:15:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: noone222 (#112)

Whether or not Jesus was speaking to Pilate at another time does not negate the premise.. I cited this particular scripture but there are others which state the same..

"What about when he told the Pharisees that their teachings made His Father's Laws of no effect, was that "spiritual" too ?" Actually yes. The Pharisees were the 'keepers of the law.. the Torah but the Law had become a side issue so to speak to them.. they focused on the oral tradition and put it before the Torah and in doing so they were misleading the people just as those false teachers today mislead people and what does the bible say about false teachers? That is what Jesus was saying. The Pharisees weren't concerned about the spiritual condition of people or themselves..their 'hearts'.. all they were concerned about was keeping the Law and the oral tradition the physical aspects of that law.. the do's and don'ts.. They also believed in an earthly King a ruler.. because they focused so heavily on the physical they were unable to 'see' the divine, the spiritual and that Jesus had come as that King.. not an earthly King but as a spiritual King.. "my kingdom is not of this world" and yes they wanted Him dead. Because He dared to challenge them and their power was as risk for many of the people were following Him. Jesus challenged them for mainly their spiritual blindness. He called them 'blind guides':

Matt. 23:13..Matt. 23:23-26: "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these things ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee...."

As far as genetics.. you have said why is there such a focus on genetics the begats etc.. for one purpose and one purpose only.. To show that Jesus himself was who He said He was.. to show that He was in fact the rightful heir to the throne.. but as I said the kingdom was not as they thought.. it was a spiritual one.. a heavenly kingdom come down from heaven.

John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {13} Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God... NOT of blood.. but of God.. a spiritual birth not one of genetics..

Again the scripture in Galatians:

Galatians 3:8-9 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. {9} So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham... what this is saying is it was the GOSPEL of Christ Jesus that was being preached to Abraham.. not a genetics lesson.. those who believe are the heirs.. for Jesus was the seed.. and we who believe are the heirs of the promise.

On Luther: Luther's words are not cannon. Luther was stuggling with the Roman Church's focus on works.. therefore, he placed great importance on grace due to the revelation he received through the HS regarding the grace of God that saves not the works of men..

Satan believes in that he knows the truth and rejects it as many people today do.. they enjoy their condition..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-05   8:14:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: Zipporah (#116)

Hey ... take a moment to contemplate this: Revelations tells us that there will come a man or authority thinking to change the days and the times ... many believe this was Constantine or a later Pope, not that it matters much in the larger picture.

Today "MILLIONS if not BILLIONS of people will attend (churchianity) services, calling it the "SABBATH" ... when any dictionary plainly states it is the day of "SUN-WORSHIP" while the Old Testament repeatedly states that the honoring of the true Sabbath will be "A SIGN BETWEEN THEE (us) AND ME (God) "FOREVER"

the evidences of manipulative fraud are surrounding a blinded prey ... Easter, Christmas and Good "FRIDAY" are other examples of frauds perpetrated by those we are supposed to trust in the pulpit ... but can't ! [The Bible further tells us that "THEY" will make merchandise of our souls ... we have been warned !

I'll give it a rest so as not to appear argumentative ... peace be unto you all !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-05   8:48:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 118.

#119. To: noone222 (#118)

On Revelation, I view the book from a partial preterist or amillienial viewpoint so it would take pages of explanation .. but the short version.. is this, the book is a picture of the church.. in allegory. Not some future event that can be interpreted with the newspaper. One needs to see the book through the eyes of those to whom it was written.

Well re the sabbath.. what does the bible tell us? Jesus is Lord of the sabbath..and He is the fulfillment of the Law.. therefore, if we are one of His.. then we keep the sabbath daily for Jesus is in us.. remember the veil was torn.. releasing the spirit.. so no longer do we have to go somewhere to worship Him.. He is with us.. and in us.

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-05 09:11:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: noone222, zipporah (#118)

by doing a search on christianity and mithraism, one can easily find the roots of the mythological/contemporary belief. As well, by doing a search on 'egyptian book of the dead' and 'the ten commandments' one can find the original egyptian sources for these supposedly uniquely given laws...

any serious person who is qualified to discuss such matters would also know about the origins of the 'faith' (doctrine today accepted as 'truth') concerning the Council of Nicea and Constantine.

so much of what Christians believe is not factually accurate, or even supported by the bible. But, that's what they get...they've decided to listen to the views of other men as the source of truth, though Christ specifically mentioned the 'divine counselor' as the one who would advise, etc. That's all organized religion can ever be, a crappy second choice for the sleeping.

Mercian Order of St.George

Christianity or Mithraism

It is surprising that Christianity was to become the international religion, when one considers that the already well-established religion of Mithraism was a natural challenger for that title. Up until the time of the Emperor Constantine, it was the latter religion which was more popular within the framework of the Roman Empire, and Christianity was regarded as being only one sect amongst numerous other sects. It was only when Constantine decreed that Christianity was to be the state religion, that Mithraism, together with a host of other religions and sects, was put into the melting pot, and ideas of that religion, most suited for the Christian purpose, were absorbed into the new state-approved religion.

Mithraism, the religion followed by those who worshipped the sun god Mithra, originated in Persia about 400 BC, and was to spread its Pagan ideas as far west as the British Isles. In the early centuries of the Christian era, Mithraism was the most wide-spread religion in the Western World, and its remains are to be found in monuments scattered around the countries of Europe, which then comprised the known civilised world.

Mithra was regarded as created by, yet co-equal with, the Supreme Deity. Mithraists were Trinitarian, kept Sunday as their day of worship, and their chief festivals were what we know of as Christmas and Easter. Long before the advent of Jesus, Mithra was said to have been born of a virgin mother, in a cave, at the time of Christmas, and died on a cross at Easter. Baptism was practised, and the sign of the cross was made on the foreheads of all newly-baptised converts. Mithra was considered to be the saviour of the world, conferring on his followers an eternal life in Heaven, and, similar to the story of Jesus, he died to save all others, provided that they were his followers.

For three centuries both religions ran parallel, Mithraism first becoming known to the Romans in 70 BC, Christianity following a century later, and it wasn’t until AD 377 that Christianity became sufficiently strong to suppress its former rival, although Mithraism was to remain a formidable opponent for some time after that, only slowly being forsaken by the people. It was only the absorption of many Mithraist ideas into Christianity which finally saw its downfall.

The big turning point was brought about by the Congress of Nicaea in AD 325. Constantine, a great supporter of the Christian religion, although not converting to it until the time of his decease, gathered together 2,000 leading figures in the world of theology, the idea being to bring about the advent of Christianity as the official state religion of Rome. It was out of this assembly that Jesus was formally declared to be the Son of God, and Saviour of Mankind, another slain saviour god, bringing up the tally of slain god-men to seventeen, of which Mithra, together with such men as Bel and Osiris, was included.

Just as Nicaea can be regarded as the birthplace of Christianity, so too it can be regarded as the graveyard of what we imagine Jesus taught. From that time onwards, Christianity was to absorb the superstitions of Mithraism, and many other older religions, and what was believed to have happened to earlier saviour gods, was made to centre around the Nazarene. The coming of Christianity under state control was to preserve it as a religion, and was the death knell of all other sects and cults within the Roman Empire.

Had Constantine decided to retain Mithraism as the official state religion, instead of putting Christianity in its place, it would have been the latter that would have been obliterated. To Constantine however, Christianity had one great advantage, it preached that repentant sinners would be forgiven their sins, provided that they were converted Christians at the time of their Passing, and Constantine had much to be forgiven for, He personally did not convert to the new religion until he was on his death bed, the reason being that only sins committed following conversion were accountable, so all sins committed by a convert, prior to conversion, didn’t matter, and he could hardly have sinned too much whilst he was lying on his death bed. Mithraism could not offer the same comfort to a man like Constantine, who was regarded as being one of the worst mass-murderers of his time.

The Emperor Julian, who followed Constantine, went back to Mithraism, but his short reign of only two years could not change what Constantine had decreed. His defeat, and death, at the hands of the Persians, was used by the Christians as an argument in favour of the new, against the old, being looked upon as an omen that Christianity had divine approval. If Julian had been spared to reign some years longer, the entire history of international religion would almost certainly have been different.

Under Emperor Jovian, who followed Julian, the substitution of Christianity for Mithraism made further progress, and old Pagan beliefs, like the Virgin Birth, Baptism and Holy Trinity, became generally accepted as the basis of the state religion. The early Christian idea of Unitarianism was quickly squashed in favour of Trinitarianism, and those who refused to accept the Holy Trinity were put to the sword, the beginning of mass slaughter in the name of religion, which was to go on for centuries. http://members.aol.com/MercStG/ChriMithPage1.html

The Influence of Mithraism on Christianity

When Mithraism is compared with Christianity, there are surprisingly many points of similarity. Of all the mystery cults Mithraism was the greatest competitor of Christianity. The cause for struggle between these two religions was that they had so many traditions, practices and ideas that were similar and in some cases identical.

Many of the similarities between these two religions have already been alluded to, but there are many others of greater or lesser significance. The belief in immortality, a mediator between god and man, the observance of certain sacramental rites, the rebirth of converts, and (in most cases) the support of high ethical ideas were common to Mithraism as well as to Christianity. In fact, the comparison became so evident that many believed the Christian movement itself became a mystery cult. "Jesus was the divine Lord. He too had found the road to heaven by his suffering and resurrection. He too had God for his father. He had left behind the secret whereby men could achieve the goal with him."[Footnote:] Enslin, op. cit., p. 190.

There were many other points of similarity between these two groups. Let us look at a few of them: (1) Both regarded Sunday as a holy day. (2) December 25 came to be considered as the anniversary of the birth of Mithra and Christ also. (3) Baptism and a communion meal were important parts of the ritual of both groups. (4) The rebirth of converts was a fundamental idea in the two cults. (5) The struggle with evil and the eventual triumph of good were essential ideas in both religions. (6) In both religions only initiates who passed through certain preliminary phases of introduction were admitted to the mysteries which brought salvation to converts. There were many more similarities between Christianity and Mithraism--most of them purely superficial. These which have been mentioned are largely only surface likenesses because the reasoning behind them is quite different, but the general effect is almost startling.

The sacraments of baptism and the eucharist have been mentioned as rites which were practiced both by christians and pagans. It is improbable, however, that either of these {were} introduced into Christian practices by association with the mystery cults. The baptismal ceremony in both cases (christian and mystery) was supposed to have the effect of identifying the initiate with his saviour. But although baptism did not originate with the Christians, still it was not copied from the pagans. It seems instead to have been carried over from Jewish background and modified by the new ideas and beliefs of the Christians. The eucharist, likewise though similar in some respects to the communion meal of Mithraism, was not a rite borrowed from them. There are several explanations regarding the beginning of the observance of the Lord's Supper. Some held that the sacrament was instituted by Jesus himself. Others saw it as an out-growth from Jewish precedents. Still others felt that, after the death of Jesus, the disciples saw in their common meal an opportunity to hold a kind of memorial service for him.

On the whole, early Christians were not greatly concerned about the likenesses between the Mithraic cult and their own. They felt at first that these competitors were not worthy of consideration, and few references to them are found in Christian literature. When Mithraism became widespread and powerful, it attracted so much attention that certain Christian apologists felt the need to present an explanation for the similarities in their respective characteristics. The only one they could offer was quite naive, but it was in keeping with the trends of thought in that age. They maintained that it was the work of the devil who helped to confuse men by creating a pagan imitation of the true religion.

The greatest influence of Mithraism on Christianity lies in a different direction from that of doctrine and ritual. It lies in the fact that Mithraism paved the way for the presentation of Christianity to the world of that time. It prepared the people mentally and emotionally to understand the type of religion which Christianity represented. It was itself in varying degrees, an imperfect example of the Galilean cult which was to replace it. It encouraged the movement away from the state religions and the philosophical systems and toward the desire for personal salvation and promise of immortality. Christianity was truly indebted to Mithraism for this contribution, for it had done this part of the groundwork and thus opened the way for Christian missionary work.

Conclusion

That Christianity did copy and borrow from Mithraism cannot be denied, but it was generally a natural and unconscious process rather than a deliberate plan of action. It was subject to the same influences from the environment as were the other cults, and it sometimes produced the same reaction. The people were conditioned by the contact with the older religions and the background and general trend of the time.

Many of the views, while passing out of Paganism into Christianity were given a more profound and spiritual meaning by Christians, yet we must be indebted to the source. To discuss Christianity without mentioning other religions would be like discussing the greatness of the Atlantic Ocean without the slightest mention of the many tributaries that keep it flowing.

BIBLIOGRAPHY

{2} Cumont, Franz, The Mysteries of Mithra, The Open Court Publishing Co., Chicago, 1910.

Dhalla, M. N., History of Zoroastrianism, Oxford University Press N. Y., 1938 pp. 183-192. {4)} Dill, Samuel, Roman Society From Nero To Marcus Aurelius, Macmillan and Co., 1905, pp. 585-626.

{5)} Enslin, Morton S., Christian Beginnings, Harper and Brothers Publishers N. Y. and London, 1938, pp. 186-200.

{(8)} Halliday, W. R., The Pagan Background of Early Christianity, The University Press of Liverpool, London, N.D., pp. 281-311.

{10)} Moore, George F., History of Religions, Vol. 1, Charles Scribner's Sons, N.Y., 1913, pp. 357-405, 592-602.

THDS. MLKP-MBU: Box 113, folder 19.

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© The Estate of Martin Luther King, Jr.

http://www.stanford.edu/group/King/publications/papers/vol1/491123-A_Study_of_Mithraism.htm

gengis gandhi  posted on  2005-06-05 09:14:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: noone222, Zipporah, Starwind (#118)

Noone, i believe i owe you an apology for calling you evil, not that i don't think we are all evil at times, including myself. I share some of your concerns and critical views of "churchianity." Many so-called Christians are afraid to think and re-read the Bible to determine what it really teaches and find truth/facts which differ from church dogma upsetting. These fearful ones can be harsh and condeming when people like you bring up so many questions. I have been the receipient of church folks' condemnation for my questioning who have driven me away from the church, but not from Christ Jesus. Jesus said His disciples would be known by their love in action.

Fortunately for you there is Zipporah and Starwind who have taken the time to answer your questions. I think it would help you to clarify your own thinking if you separated your conserns as Bible-sourced and church-sourced as it is clear to most of us that the church through the ages has adulturated many of the Bible's teachings and it would not be fair to blame the Bible for the way some have misused it. Also, there is a process of maturity one goes though in willingness to submit to the authroity of God who speaks through Scripture via the Holy Spirit. In the end, whatever we believe is not going to be 100% correct as each of us is growing in our understanding. What saves us is God's grace and our choice in accepting it, not perfect knowledge and being 100% correct.

It is good to question and good to have the freedom to question. I'm grateful to God that two here, Zip and Star, are loviing and patient enough and knowledgeable enough to answer your questions.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-05 09:17:47 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 118.

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