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Religion
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Title: Christ Was Not A Jew
Source: israelect
URL Source: http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ChristNotAJew.htm
Published: Jun 3, 2005
Author: WillieMartin
Post Date: 2005-06-03 09:45:20 by Itisa1mosttoolate
Keywords: Christ
Views: 2045
Comments: 183

Christ Was Not A Jew

Jesus Christ Was Not A Jew: Does this shock you? We certainly hope it does. For it is time that Christians woke up to the fact that they have been brainwashed by the Jews with the "big lie technique" to the falsehood that Christ was a Jew.

We ask you now, to set aside all prejudice in the matter and as God states in the Bible, "Come let us reason together." (Isaiah 1:18)

There are two ways that a person can be a Jew; racially (which means a cross between the descendants of Esau and True Israelites 49; There is Edom [Esau is called Edom in Genesis 36:8. And Edom is in 'Modern Jewry' Jewish Encyclopedia, 1925 edition, Vol. 5, p. 41) or religiously. Let us now see whether Christ fits either of these categories.

Ninety49;five percent of the people that we know as Jews today, are mongrels; they are a product of the amalgamation of many races. The majority of the Jews are Asiatics, of Mongolian, stock, the descendants of the tribes of Khazars of Russia who accepted Judaism in 740 A.D.

They are the descendants of Cain; No racial Jew is an Israelite. That's right, we repeat, NO RACIAL JEW IS AN ISRAELITE. The Bible itself identifies the Jews as the seed of Cain thereby identfying Satan as their father. (John 8:44)

Christ said to the Jews, in the 23rd chapter of Matthew, verses 3349;35: "You serpents, you generation (race) of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore behold I send you a prophet, wise men and scribes and some of them you shall kill and crucify and some of them yuo shall scourge in your synagogues and persecute them from city to city that upon you may come all the righteous blood that has ever been shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel" (Note that carefully).

Here Christ is saying to the Jews that they are guilty of the murder of Abel. Jesus could not have said this unless the Jews were/are the descendants of Cain. Christ goes on to say: "Unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Brachias who you slew between the temple and the alter." It's very plan! And it's in your Bible.

Christ said to the Jews "You are guilty of the death of righteous Abel because you rfather Cain murdered him." It is also well for you to note here that Jesus further blames these Jews for all the deaths of righteous people from the beginning of time right down to this day. This is not a statement of man but of our Redeem, our King, our Savior.

Christ never lied and spoke only the truth; every word contained in the sixty49;six books of the Bible is the Word of Almighty God. Are the Jews then God's Chosen People as some "fogbound, lying, deceiving, Judeo49;Chrisian Clergy" would have us believe? Far from it! Rather than being God's Chosen People, they are Satan's Children! Let us turn for proof of this, to the eighth chapter of John the 42nd verse. The Jews have just said to Christ, we are God's Chosen People, God is our Father. Christ did not answer the Jews the way ninety49;nine percent of our Judeo49;Christian preachers would do today. Rather, He said in the 42nd vers, "If God were your Father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God. Neitherdid I come of myself, but He sent Me. Why is it that you do not understand my speech. It is because yuo cannot hear my words." (Read carefully the 44th verse) where Christ said to the Jews, "Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks oa lie, he speaks of his own for he is a liar and the father of it."

The Word "Jew"

A Jew is a person whose religion is Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism). The word Jew is not found in the original texts of the Scriptures, but in many English Bibles the word is an incorrect rendering of the latin word Judaeus, the Greek word Ioudaios, and the Hebrew word Yehudi. Although not found in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures, the word Jew is an English rendering most often incorrectly translated from Yahudah, that is, referring to one belonging to one of the tribes of Israel (Yisrael) called Yahudah (Judah), a Yahudite. The word Jews, the plural of the word Jew, is incorrectly translated most often from the word Yahudim (descendants of the tribe of Yahudah).

The letter 'J' was not in general use until after the 17th century as used in many Bibles for the word 'Jew' to substitute for the correct word Yahudite, or Yahudim. In some English Bibles we have received the word Juda, also an error in translation because the word derives from the Greek Iudaios, which in the English would be Judaios. Judaios was none other then a Greek diety (see W.H. Roscher's lexicon of mythology).

As used in the Scriptures, the word 'Jew' is sometimes translated to refer to a Yudean (Judean) a native or inhabitant (which includes many diverse races and people groups living in the region) of Yudea (Judea). As the word 'American' includes many diverse peoples living in the Country called 'America'. The word very often refers to an advocate or adherent to the religion of the Yahudim, (Judaism), or it may in a few cases refer to a literal descendant of Abraham, Issac, Jacob/Israel, one of the descent of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah).

In present day generic usage, the word has no relationship to the Hebrew or the Greek translated words in the Old or New Covenant Scriptures, and is associated primarily through an adherent or advocate of Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism) the religion, but not through ethnics or race. Basically, a Jew is anyone who decides to call himself/herself a Jew. Within Jewish Circles, there are two other official ways one can become a Jew. One can be born from a mother who calls herself a Jew, or one can 'convert' to become a Jew. (A convert is called a ger which literally means stranger). Being born a Jew is pretty simple. If one's mother is Jewish (of the Jewish religion) then he/she is considered a Jew, if one's mother is not of the Jewish religion, then neither is the child officially a Jew. (It doesn't matter what the father is).

Modern Jew49;dah49;ism began about 1000 AD, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany the 'Father' of the Ashkenazi Jews, which constitute approximately 90% of the worlds Jews. Modern Jew49;dah49;ism is not the Scriptural worship system of the Yahudim of the Scriptures.

Jews do not actively encourage conversion; to a large degree they discourage it. This is the reason Jews have never had missionaries trying to convert non49;Jews. They want the convert but the convert must be 100% committed to being a Jew. Discouraging conversion helps to filter out those 'lacking the proper degree' of commitment.

If the non49;Jew still wants to become a Jew, the male is circumcised. After he is healed, he immerses himself in a mikva. A mikva is a special pool of water which is used for many religious purposes in the religion of the Jews. (It must be made according to very specific rules). A female convert only has to immerse herself.

The term 'Jew', has come to be used synonymous with the term 'Israel, Israelite', however, this is error. Scriptural Israelites were never called Jews, (Yahudim), unless they were so associated by their religion. Most modern Jews are not of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah), and are not 'Israelites.' They are called Jew(s) because of their religion, Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism).

Jew, Ashkenazi (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews)

After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), the Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. They prospered during the years in Assyria, and became a huge number of people. Outgrowing the land area they eventually migrated North through the 'Caucasus Mountains', and into central and Western Europe forming the European Nations, and are known as Caucasians 'whites.' As these Israelites migrated they influenced many people groups, no longer having an organized religious priesthood, and not having a nation or national identity, these migrating people, descendants of Jacob/Israel nevertheless passed on their bits and pieces of the ancient Scriptural worship system which was corrupted through their many years of captive living in pagan Assyria. During the 7th century A.D. these bits and pieces of the corrupt worship system became a form of Jew49;dah49;ism and was embraced by the Khazar King, his court, and the Khazar military class, who are descendants of Ashkenaz. This new religion of Jew49;dah49;ism, became the religion of the Khazars, and forms most of modern cultic European Jewry.

In common parlance the present day 'Jew' is synonymous with the 'Ashkenazi Khazar Jew'. Scripture refers to the Ashkenaz in Gen. 10:3, and in I Chron. 1:6, as one of the sons of Gomer, who was a son of Japheth, son of Noah. Ashkenaz is also a brother of Togarmah (and a nephew of Magog) who the Kazars, according to King Joseph, (of the Kazars) claimed as their ancestor. The people who refer to themselves as Ashkenazi Jews are not Israelites, and they are not Semites because they do not descend from Noah's son Shem. They are Ashkenazi Khazar Jews, who descend from Noah's son Japheth. Approximately 8549;90 percent of the Jews in the world call themselves Ashkenazi Jews.

Present49;day Jew49;dah49;ism, was formally formed into it's basic cultic form about 1,000 years ago, (according to the Jews), when 49; Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany, published a ban on bigamy. This marks the recorded beginning of the Ashkenazi Jews*, and Franco49;German halachic** creativity. The word 'Ashkenazi' is not Hebrew for the word Germany, although the name has become 'associated' with Germany because many Ashkenazi Jews organized in Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Mongolia.

*Ashkenazi 49; (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews). **halachic 49; loose 'interpretations' of Old Testament laws

Jew, Sephardim (Spanish Jews)

After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), The Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. The King then imported people groups from his country (Assyria) to replace the exiled Israelites to maintain and control the land of the exiles. The Sepharvaim were one of these people groups, along with Cuthahites, Arrahites, 2 Kings 17:24. They mingled with each other, along with Edomites, who had migrated Northward from Idumea (field of Edom), after Israel and the Yahudim (Judeans) were exiled. Adad and Anu were ancient gods of Babylonia and were also the gods of these pagan Sepharvaim people. The Sephardim Yudeans (Judeans) are a mongrel people whose descent is directly from a mixture of this Assyrian people group and the remnant of escaped Yudeans (Judeans) along with Edomites who had migrated into the land originally occupied by the Kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Yahudah (Judah). This made their religion also of mixed character, 2 Kings 17:2449;41.

The people known as "Spanish Jews," are descended from the Canaanites, the people who colonized Carthage. Following its sack by Rome, they adopted this Sepharvaim, or Sephardim name for deceptive purposes and constitute 5% of world Jewry today. The Sephardim Jews speak Latino, a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew. The Sephardim Jews migrated West through Egypt, then North into Spain from Judea and Samaria before, during, and after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE,. This migration became known as the "Jewish 'Sephardim' Diaspora". Today, these Sephardim Jews are still using their ancient adopted name Sephardim (the spelling is a transliteration into English and not of significance). They settled in Spain, Portugal, the Eastern Mediterranean, Italy, the Balkans, Salonica and Macedonia, eventually emigrating into France and England, and Western Europe.

The Sepharviam Yudeans (Judeans) were known as Samaritans during the time of Messiah, because they were living in Samaria, which was the area from which Israel was removed by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V. The twelve apostles during the time if Messiah, were instructed not to enter the cities of the Samaritans, Matt. 10:5. Although the True Israelites of tribal descent, living in Samaria did received the witness of Yahshua and the message of redemption from the apostles, Acts, 1:8. Some of the mixed Samaritans also became proselytes to the Christian faith, Acts 8:449;25.

The Sephardim Jews, (or Sepharviam Jews) are not of Israelite blood; they are not of the tribe of Yahudah although they were called Yudeans, 'Judeans', as an inhabitant, i.e. person living in the land originally occupied by the tribe of Yahudah of Israel). Their descent is mixed from Edom/Esau Canaanite stock. The Sephardim Jews, like the Ashkenazi Khazar Jews are not a Semitic people. The word Sephardim is not a Hebrew word for Spain, although the name has become 'associated' with Spain because many Sephardim Jews organized in Spain.

Jew49;dah49;ism, (modern 'Judaism')

Jew49;dah49;ism, is a cultic (ritual49;istic) religion which originated approximately 1000 CE, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz Germany through the publishing of his 'halachic creativity' (interpretation of Old Covenant laws), he thereby established the beginning of the modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism. Today the religion is also greatly influenced by the Babylonian Talmud, an ancient Pagan ritual49;listic system of various extreme opinions, interpretations, codes, rules, and regulations.

The modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism has nothing in common with the Scriptural Cultic system of worship which was completely destroyed by Messiah as a religious system in 70 CE at the destruction of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), Herod's Temple, and through the establishment of the New Covenant through Yahshua Messiah. Christianity, as a religious system of Faith, replaced the ancient system of Cultic (ritual49;istic) sacrificial worship.

Jewish

A term incorrectly applied to reflect anything pertaining to a Yahudite, a descendant of the tribe of Yahudah. In common use, the term 'Jewish' is now applied to things pertaining to the Jews. Scriptural accuracy has no bearing on the use of the modern term 'Jewish'.See also the word 'Israel'

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 168.

#1. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#0)

This is a good example of really bad writing as the author can't seem to stick to a point and develop it. It is also an example of a bad progaganda. Jesus was a Jew as were his parents. The author doesn't want to accept this PROVABLE fact.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-03   9:59:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: fatidic, Itisa1mosttoolate (#1)

Matthew 1:1-17 and Luke 3:23-38 contains the genealogy of Jesus Christ. Matthew recorded Joseph's lineage. Luke recorded the family tree of Mary. Wikipedia may be a little more accurate.

NOLAJBS  posted on  2005-06-03   10:10:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: NOLAJBS, Ittalmosttoolate (#2)

NOLAJBS, did you mean to call me a Nazi too?

I think the reason the two genologies differ is that one is for Mary and the other is for Joseph.

Itsalmostoolate, why would you want to believe that Jesus is not a Jew and use such silly explanations to support this belief?

It comes down to either choosing to believe those who make claims that Jesus wasn't a Jew or believing the Bible. I have choosen to believe the Bible as i have investigated its reliability many times on many issues and it has held up to my hard questions.

fatidic  posted on  2005-06-03   13:49:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: fatidic (#6)

I think the reason the two genologies differ is that one is for Mary and the other is for Joseph.

Agreed.. for one reveals his Davidic tenealogy through Mary.. and the other through Joseph, for as Joseph was his adoptive father and according to the Law Jesus would also receive inheritance through Joseph..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-03   13:59:33 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Zipporah (#8)

Agreed.. for one reveals his Davidic tenealogy through Mary.. and the other through Joseph, for as Joseph was his adoptive father and according to the Law Jesus would also receive inheritance through Joseph..

Seconded (is that a real word?)

Jesus WAS a Jew. And I am not at all sure why this is such a big deal.

CAPPSMADNESS  posted on  2005-06-04   8:27:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: CAPPSMADNESS (#53)

Jesus WAS a Jew. And I am not at all sure why this is such a big deal.

Not sure .. other than admitting that Jesus was a Jew takes issue with their world view..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-04   8:35:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Zipporah (#54)

Not sure .. other than admitting that Jesus was a Jew takes issue with their world view..

Trying to make Jesus a Jew is like placing a square peg in a round hole, avoids his divinity, and the whole notion of the unblemished sacrifice ... besides screwing with my world view ... Ha !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-04   8:41:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: noone222, Itisa1mosttoolate, Zipporah, Diana, fatidic, Don, Tauzero, Barak, CAPPSMADNESS (#55)

besides screwing with my world view

Regarding noone222's "world view" (which he doesn't want screwed with) noone222 and Itisa1mosttoolate are posting "Christian Identity" material authored by Wille Martin, a leader of the Christian Identity cult.

Willie Martin's reference materials are outlined at: The Christian Israel (Identity) Truth. Here are a few titles therefrom:

Willie Martin's "bible study" materials are also promulgated by the Christian Party. Here is Willie Martin (now a physicist and cosmologist as well a bible teacher) at http://christianparty.net/ einsteinmartin.htm on Albert Einstein:

When we actually examine the life of Albert Einstein, WE FIND THAT HIS ONLY BRILLIANCE LIES IN HIS ABILITY TO PLAGIARIZE AND STEAL OTHER PEOPLE=S IDEAS, PASSING THEM OFF AS HIS OWN (A typical Jewish expertise). Einstein's education, or lack thereof, is an important part of this story.

Willie Martin's theology ('Christ was a caucasian', 'USA is restored Israel', 'Jesus was not a Jew', etc) and his bible exegesis is so bad and distorted that in the words of Wolfgang Pauli, "It's not right. It's not even wrong. " I may (as I did above in post #9 address some of the more silly arguments offered by Martin/noone22. But for now, I may offer some thoughts in addition to Zipporah's answers to to Diana's questions.

My purpose in this post was only to expose the underlying agenda in Willie Martin's writing, and provide lurkers with some links where they can review Martin's writing's for themselves. This may help to place the arguments being offered in a recognizable context.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-04   10:41:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Starwind (#62)

Oh yeah, Willie Martin and others believe that the caucasion people are the sole ethnic descendants of Jacob/Israel. I'm not so sure.

While I believe that white people are descended from Jacob/Israel, I also believe other races could also be descendants as well. We don't know positively what the racial make-up of the hand-maidens that bore him children happened to be.

The early migrations of the Tribes cannot be positively traced, however, much evidence supports the notion that whites are his descendants. The one factor that is very hard to deny is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promises. Those calling themselves Jews today cannot even claim the first one, that they would be many Nations and an innumerable multitude.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-04   11:30:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: noone222 (#72)

Oh yeah, Willie Martin and others believe that the caucasion people are the sole ethnic descendants of Jacob/Israel. I'm not so sure.

much evidence supports the notion that whites are his descendants.

Caucasian means of the Caucasus Mountains (bounded by the Black and Caspian Seas to the east and west, Russia to the north, and Turkey and Iran to the south).

Willie Martin claims "Your Savior, YAHSHUA (JESUS CHRIST), was a Caucasian", ie Christ came from Caucasia (the Caucasus Mountains) or that his descendants did and came to American where caucasians are called "whites".

Think about your argument. Jesus was a Caucasian and his descendants. You are arguing Jesus Christ biologically fathered a race of children from the Caucasus Mountains.

Such is your world view that you don't want screwed with (well screwed with any further).

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-04   11:48:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: Starwind (#77)

Oh yeah, Willie Martin and others believe that the caucasion people are the sole ethnic descendants of Jacob/Israel. "I'm not so sure".

1st I qualified my statement as it regarded my own research. I further stated that I wasn't convinced that all were white or caucasions, because of the four mothers that bore Jacob's children, 2 were possibly non-white. Leah and Rachel were white, as was Rebecca the aunt of Leah and Rachel. [Here is a little surprise that can be found in "Strong's Concordance or Zondervan's dictionary of the Bible: Laban, brother of Rebecca and the father of Rachel and Leah ... Laban in the Hebrew means "white"]

Let me reiterate here that it is NOT as IMPORTANT to me who are the so-called chosen people of promise as it is to clearly point out that the people claiming to be are liars and their lie is terrorizing the entire world. The State of Israel is not Biblical, it is a fraud because the people operating it are not descended from Abraham, and it is the focal point of WW III. And while we edge ever closer to this all out war that will require us to sacrifice our children to it, unlearned Christians continue to support anti-christ Bush remaining adamant about protecting the phoney State of Israel that exists based upon the falsely claimed promise to Abraham and can be clearly discerned by reading Genesis Chapter 10:3 (see Ashkenaz grandson of Japeth NOT SHEM) .... The descendants of Japeth (NIMROD) built Babel, developed the Babylonian Talmud and even claimed to be god.

When one considers the simplicity of just taking a look at the geneology at Genesis 10/11/12 where it confirms what I am stating, and the stubborn refusal of Christians to do so in order to comply with the high priests of Baal running their church, is "willful ignorance" ...

caveat: I haven't always been aware of this and am not trying to act like a know it all ... we as a civilization are approaching a time of terror of our own making. "My people are DESTROYED for lack of knowledge" ... I am admitting to you that I resisted this information for a long time until I became convinced of it through study, not Willie Martin or anyone else. I am reminded of the scripture that says: "they loved a lie more than the truth"

Starwind, I would appreciate a little restraint on your part when making remarks about "MY" worldview ... until at least you have a little better knowledge of it ... PLEASE

This may not be of consequence to this conversation but people (I don't remember exactly whom) have remarked about Moses being a "JEW" as if he were a student or adherent to Judaism. The first Synagogue in Jerusalem didn't exist until AFTER the captivity of Judah/Benjamin, and was brought back from Babylon.

noone222  posted on  2005-06-05   7:42:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: noone222 (#113)

I further stated that I wasn't convinced that all were white or caucasions, because of the four mothers that bore Jacob's children, 2 were possibly non- white. Leah and Rachel were white, as was Rebecca the aunt of Leah and Rachel. [Here is a little surprise that can be found in "Strong's Concordance or Zondervan's dictionary of the Bible: Laban, brother of Rebecca and the father of Rachel and Leah ... Laban in the Hebrew means "white"]

Surprising? Maybe for someone looking to butress conspiracy theories, but certainly not to most bible students. Further, "Adam" in Hebrew means 'red or ruddy' and is usually thought to refer to his complexion.... so what? white or red/ruddy are descriptions of visual complexion, much like calling someone 'redhead' or 'blonde' or 'brunette', and clearly not sufficiently distinct genetically so as to permit race or tribe identification or exclusion.

And the descendants of Rachel & Leah (with Jacob) are the tribes of Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Issachar, Zebulon, Joseph & Benjamin. Judah is in the lineage of Christ (genetically thru Mary) and not one of the lost tribes. So even if you're trying to draw some inferrence that Jesus Christ was descended of a ruddy/white complected tribe and because caucasians are ruddy/white complected thus Christ was not a Jew is patently illogical:

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-05   14:10:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Starwind (#124)

The geneology that is plainly stated in Genesis 10:3 makes it perfectly clear that todays "so-called" Jews aren't semetic, aren't descendants of Abraham and are nothing less than trespassers against Palestine ... and that they are the primary force fucking up a peaceful world !

There's my worldview ... quit trying to protect the phoney Jews !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-05   16:27:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: noone222 (#128)

The geneology that is plainly stated in Genesis 10:3 makes it perfectly clear that todays "so-called" Jews aren't semetic, aren't descendants of Abraham and are nothing less than trespassers against Palestine

But then Gen 10:3 was never intended to establish the geneology of Israel (Jacob). But you already knew that. Nonetheless, you have (in a stunning display of illogic) cherry-picked the geneology of the ashkenazi, and with a wave of your hand assert that has some bearing on the modern political nation Israel as re-established by the Balfour Declaration of 1917 and the Weizman-Faisal Agreement of 1919 as well as subsequent UN resolutions.

You ignore (because it doesn't fit your world-view) 1Ch 1:1-34 and Gen 35:22-26 wherein the genology of Israel (not the Ashkenazi) is established.

... and that they are the primary force fucking up a peaceful world !

More of that restraint with which you wish to be treated?

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-05   16:44:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: Starwind (#129)

wherein the genology of Israel (not the Ashkenazi) is established.

Israel as re-established by the Balfour Declaration ...

The actual "Israelites" (unless of course they happen to be Americans and Great Britains) aren't the driving force behind the State of Israel and the genocide of Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghanis ... Ashkenazi Jews are key !

I said it earlier and will repeat it for the "not so attentive" it's less important to me who are the lost tribes of Israel as it is to point out that the people trespassing in Israel today, and by so doing are creating the atmosphere for WW III, which will include American kids 18 years old and up, are Mongol converts with NO ETHNICAL CLAIM to Jerusalem/Palestine or any justification to oust the prior residents.

"Israel as (re-) established by the Balfour Declaration" you're a dreamer, The Balfour Proclamation was nothing more than a letter from Lord Balfour to Lord Rothschild agreeing to support the fraud that Rothschild was intent upon foisting on the world ... later actually mandated by the UN ... I don't know about you but I have a hard time with Rothschild and the UN ... I suppose you support them !

By the way "Brit" "ain" in Hebrew means Covenant Land ... "Brit" "Ish" means covenant man ... and Longshanks, King Edward the 1st was a direct descendant of JUDAH !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-05   17:01:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: noone222 (#130)

[Ashkenazi Jews are] Mongol converts with NO ETHNICAL CLAIM to Jerusalem/ Palestine or any justification to oust the prior residents.

There were few or no prior residents in 1917, 1919, even 1948. The so called "palestinians" came to Israel well after 1948 when it became economically attractive for them to do so (they came for jobs in the economy the Jews were creating), and after it became clear their Arab brethen weren't about to give them a homeland in the transjordan, as previously agreed. There certainly were no "palestinians" when Abraham camped in the land on Mt Moriah.

There have been Jews (Judahites) living in their "promised land" since Abraham. Not all of them were removed in the exile or the even the diaspora. Israel would be largely native Judahites and Samaritans today were it not for the Roman occupation.

Your oft repeated and not once substantiated assertion that modern Israel consists ethnically of mostly Ashkenazi, even if true, has zero bearing on the legitimacy of the recognized political boundaries and national sovereignty of modern Israel, whatever the 'ethnic tribe(s)' it's returnees claim as origin. Now, if it was the intention of the British, Arabs, and "Jews" to establish a political nation solely for the descendants of the ethnic tribe of "Judah" you might have an argument.

But the world (British, Arabs, Weitzman, Faisal, et. al.) never intended Israel to be soley occupied by an ethnically pure population of "Judahites". That is a straw man argument you keep tossing out.

Would the legitimacy of the United States be called into question if it were determined (or alleged) that only 10 percent of the original 'pilgrims' where in fact English? How many French, Spanish, German, etc settlers would be needed to overturn the US Declaration of Independence? What if the native "indians" weren't native to the land but were Asian and came across the bearing strait?

What is the basis on which you assert an ethnic prerequisite to a political nation's sovereignty, and then on what basis do you apply that only to Jews and Israel?

Lastly, you show a marked mistrust and disbelief of God's ability to bring about His prophecy of a restored Israel. The political nation exists again. The population is returning from around the world. Who are you to declare the prophecy as fulfilled and now time to check God's work?

Were someone actually able to genetically test the ethnicity of the growing Israeli population for whatever the 12 tribes are (genetically), I believe when the prophecy is fulfilled, it would be shown that God in fact regathered "Israel" and while Ashkenazi might reside in the population, that is no different than when Caananites and Egyptians and Greeks, etc resided amongst the Israelites as well.

Is Israel the focal point for WWIII? Absolutely, as previously pointed out, it has been foretold.

Did God screw up and mistake the Ashkenazi for His chosen people? Not likely.

There are lots of reasons to mistrust our "Christian" and "Jewish" leaders, but the Ashkenazi successfully conspiring to usurp Jacob's blessing isn't one of them.

Picking up now from your post #131:

God "can't predict a fraud ...

You have now for me fully demonstrated your lack of understanding of God, Christ, or the bible.

It's hard to conclude that it is anything less than a fraud when the people claiming the land were NEVER promised anything, aren't related to Abraham or his covenant with God, yet claim it regardless of their political bent.

You have yet to establish any basis that a false claim has been made, other than your deliberate cherry-picking out of context the geneology of Ashkenazi. Nowhere have you established that the Ashkenazi in fact comprise modern Israel, nor that there is any ethnic prerequisite for a modern political nation's sovereignty or legitimacy.

Moses was never a Jew ... quit trying to imagine it in your fantasy world view ... hahahahaha !!! There was no Talmud nor Synagogue before the 2nd Captivity ... (I am dutifully restraining myself ... from laughing out loud !)

That's the argument you'd like to have, but it isn't the one you've been given.

In OT terms, Moses was an Israelite, a Hebrew, a descendant of Abraham, of the tribe of Levi. He was the forerunner Levitical Priest. The synagogue was established after the destruction of the Herodian Temple, 'substitutes' for the absent Temple, and is the "hall of meeting" but without sacrifices and the ark present (obviously). The Rabbi likewise 'substitutes' for the levitcal priest. Again you conflate what modern Judaism does as opposed to what OT scripture recorded; as if what Jews do today changes in any respect who Moses was.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-05   18:31:09 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#145. To: Starwind (#134)

(1). There were few or no prior residents in 1917, 1919, even 1948. The so called "palestinians" came to Israel well after 1948 when it became economically attractive for them to do so (they came for jobs in the economy the Jews were creating), and after it became clear their Arab brethen weren't about to give them a homeland in the transjordan, as previously agreed. There certainly were no "palestinians" when Abraham camped in the land on Mt Moriah.

(2). There have been Jews (Judahites) living in their "promised land" since Abraham. Not all of them were removed in the exile or the even the diaspora. Israel would be largely native Judahites and Samaritans today were it not for the Roman occupation.

(3). Your oft repeated and not once substantiated assertion that modern Israel consists ethnically of mostly Ashkenazi, even if true, has zero bearing on the legitimacy of the recognized political boundaries and national sovereignty of modern Israel, whatever the 'ethnic tribe(s)' it's returnees claim as origin. Now, if it was the intention of the British, Arabs, and "Jews" to establish a political nation solely for the descendants of the ethnic tribe of "Judah" you might have an argument.

(4). But the world (British, Arabs, Weitzman, Faisal, et. al.) never intended Israel to be soley occupied by an ethnically pure population of "Judahites". That is a straw man argument you keep tossing out.

(5). Did God screw up and mistake the Ashkenazi for His chosen people? Not likely.

(6). You have yet to establish any basis that a false claim has been made, other than your deliberate cherry-picking out of context the geneology of Ashkenazi. Nowhere have you established that the Ashkenazi in fact comprise modern Israel, nor that there is any ethnic prerequisite for a modern political nation's sovereignty or legitimacy.

(7). Again you conflate what modern Judaism does as opposed to what OT scripture recorded; as if what Jews do today changes in any respect who Moses was.

(1). So who did the UN Forces attack and kill in 1948 ... Ghosts ?

(2). Agreed (Judahites not Ashkenazi Eastern European wannabe Jews) And I'll even agree that the Arabs and Judahites lived peaceably prior to the Ashkenazi Invasion.

(3). The Ten Northern Tribes were taken in the 1st Captivity and NEVER RETURNED TO PALESTINE/JERUSALEM. [See 2nd Esdras (Ezra) and Josephus writes that the Romans only collected Tax from two Tribes ...Judah and Benjamin).

(4). I have never made that argument.

(5). Most definitely not ... He described them in Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 as the Synagogue of Satan, that say they are JEWS but are not, but DO LIE.

(6). Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of modern Jewry knows that 90% of them are Ashkenazi Jews as can be found in the Encyclopedia Judaica.

(7). You have a hard time understanding that todays Jews were religious converts to Judaism around 740-750 A.D. ... They were not ethnically Israelites or related to the people of Moses day that were led out of Egypt.

The truth is that you need to do some historical study of the Ashkenazi Jews, who are predominant among the people calling themselves Jews today at a 90% to 10% factor. Most of the information related to modern Jewry is in the Jewish Encyclopedia, however there are many other sources. I have done the research and am certain of the facts related to the Ashkenazi Jews, and that they descended from another lineage, that of the brother Japeth, and not Shem or Ham.

Lastly, to compare the conquest of America to the UN IMPOSED MANDATE of the State of Israel is ludicrous. I'm not saying what happened to the Indians was right, it wasn't. The word "restore" has nothing to do with the Ashkenazi Jew inhabitants of Israel today, NOTHING !

noone222  posted on  2005-06-06   12:34:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#147. To: noone222, Zipporah, Diana, fatidic (#145)

(1). So who did the UN Forces attack and kill in 1948 ... Ghosts ?

The UN never engaged militarily in the 1948 Israeli War of Independence. On May 15, 1948 (eaxctly one day after the British Palestinian Mandate ended) the surrounding 5 countries of Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq and TransJordan attacked Israel. The Israeli Defense Force defended against and defeated all five attacking armies. It was not Israel or the UN attacking the residents of the land. It was 5 neighbors attacking Israel.

Further, prior to the attack, the 'arab' countries had been broadcasting radio messages into Israel telling the 'muslim/arabs' to leave so they would be out and thus allowing the attacking armies a clearer field of fire on their Israeli targets. The fleeing muslim/arabs were promised they could return afterwards and have whatever of the Jew's property hadn't been destoyed. But the attackers lost, and then the muslim/arab refugees claimed they were driven out by the Israelis and demanded to return. These so called refugees numbered about 400, 000.

The Ottoman Turks denuded the land of 97% of its trees and vegetation in the18th centrury for construction materiel to build the trans-Arabian railroad. Mark Twain, visiting in 1867, described it in Innocents Abroad as 60;A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. ... We never saw a human being on the whole journey.61; The British Palestine Consul in 1857 described it as 60;The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is that of a body of population70;61; Ottoman Turk 1882 census figures of 1882 reported only 141,000 Muslims, both Arab and non-Arab for the entire land.

That desolate land is what the Jews wanted back, and in 1919 Great Britain and Faisal agreed.

(2). Agreed [that there have been Jews (Judahites) living in their "promised land" since Abraham. Not all of them were removed in the exile or the even the diaspora. Israel would be largely native Judahites and Samaritans today were it not for the Roman occupation.] (Judahites not Ashkenazi Eastern European wannabe Jews) And I'll even agree that the Arabs and Judahites lived peaceably prior to the Ashkenazi Invasion.

You are on record now as agreeing that there have been Jews (Judahites) living in their "promised land" since Abraham. Not all of them were removed in the exile or the even the diaspora.

And I'll even agree that the Arabs and Judahites lived peaceably prior to the Ashkenazi Invasion.

But you'd be wrong. Until about 1939, Haj Amin al-Husseini, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, lead and incited local Arabs in rebellion against the British and attacking the local Jews. There was the Jerusalem pogrom of 1920; Jaffa/ Hurani riots of 1921; riots in Hebron killed 67 Jews in 1929; and then a country wide uprising (like the intifada) from 1936-1939 targeting both Jews and British.

(3). The Ten Northern Tribes were taken in the 1st Captivity and NEVER RETURNED TO PALESTINE/JERUSALEM. [See 2nd Esdras (Ezra) and Josephus writes that the Romans only collected Tax from two Tribes ...Judah and Benjamin).

The points you and Willie Martin continually avoid is that:

Further, Revelation 7 clearly states that God will seal 144,000 from the 12 tribes, so God has preserved at least a remnant and God through Ezekiel has said the 12 tribes would be restored to the land. God has re-established the country Israel, and is bringing back the people Israel. As previously noted, you are in no position to declare God's plan complete (or incomplete because some actual descendants of Ashkenaz might live in Israel).

(4). I have never made that argument. [that the British, Arabs, Weitzman, Faisal, et. al. never intended Israel to be soley occupied by an ethnically pure population of "Judahites".]

Then can we expect you to stop broad brushing all of Israel with your " ashkenaz" paint, and acknowledge that the country Israel is legitimate and that within it's population (along with some possible descendants of Ashkenaz) are rightful descendants of the 12 tribes?

(5). Most definitely not ... He described them in Revelations 2:9 and 3:9 as the Synagogue of Satan, that say they are JEWS but are not, but DO LIE.

Then by your definition anyone not a Judahite is not a Jew and thus is of the Synagogue of Satan, right? So, descendants of the other 11 tribes are, by your definition not a "Jew" and therefore of the Synagogue of Satan. And since Ruth was not a "Jew" by your definition but rather a Moabitess, thus Ruth too is of the Synagogue of Satan, which in turn means King David and Mary (mother of Jesus) descended from people of the Synagogue of Satan. That is where your ill-thought doctrine leads.

(6). Anyone with a rudimentary understanding of modern Jewry knows that 90% of them are Ashkenazi Jews as can be found in the Encyclopedia Judaica.

(7). You have a hard time understanding that todays Jews were religious converts to Judaism around 740-750 A.D. ... They were not ethnically Israelites or related to the people of Moses day that were led out of Egypt.

The truth is that you need to do some historical study of the Ashkenazi Jews, who are predominant among the people calling themselves Jews today at a 90% to 10% factor. Most of the information related to modern Jewry is in the Jewish Encyclopedia, however there are many other sources. I have done the research and am certain of the facts related to the Ashkenazi Jews, and that they descended from another lineage, that of the brother Japeth, and not Shem or Ham.

Some place Ashkenazi percentage closer to 80%, but regardless, the term "Ashkenaz" as used by everyone except you and Willie Martin refers to Jewish people living in Germany and Poland and would include ethnic descendants of the lost tribes as well possibly as descendants from Ashkenaz. You, however, keep equating the geocultural group "Ashkenazi" with exclusively meaning having descended from Ashkenaz of Gen 10:3. No one is arguing where the lost tribes settled. Even you admitted they "NEVER RETURNED TO PALESTINE/JERUSALEM" but you can't quite seem to grasp that these descendants lived also in Germany, Poland, Europe (in fact scattered worldwide by now - that's why they're called the "lost tribes") and are also called (by you and the world) as Ashekanzi because of where they settled, even though they did not descend from Ashkenaz. Not all so called "Ashkenazi" actually descended from Ashkenaz.

I have done the research and am certain of the facts related to the Ashkenazi Jews, and that they descended from another lineage, that of the brother Japeth, and not Shem or Ham.

This 'certainty' from the same guy who also has "researched" that Jesus was not a Jew, and also confuses white caucasians as descendants of Jacob/Israel (post #72), so seemingly you don't who Gentiles are either, and that God can't predict a fraud and Moses was never a Jew (post #131) - lol.

I doubt you have done anything more than repost Willie Martin's screed (yes, your post #39 and the main article are the exact same). You certainly have not not posted any research. And you have not provided any proof that only descendants of Ashkenaz lived in Germany, Poland, Europe etc, and that while you acknowledge the lost tribes for the most part didn't return to Israel (many Samaritans clearly returned), you blindly assume for the convenience of your argument that none of them settled with the Ashkenazi in German, Poland, etc.

Lastly, to compare the conquest of America to the UN IMPOSED MANDATE of the State of Israel is ludicrous. I'm not saying what happened to the Indians was right, it wasn't. The word "restore" has nothing to do with the Ashkenazi Jew inhabitants of Israel today, NOTHING !

You have again entirely missed the point.

Your argument is that (post #113) Israel the country is "not biblical", a "fraud" and a "phoney" state because it's residents falsely claimed Abraham's promise (aren't legitimate Jews). Your argument has been that only legitimate Jews who descended from Judah have a right to re-establish and populate Israel and since you believe such "Jews" don't exist, therefore you believe Israel the country has no right to exist. Yet you inconsistently and illogically ignore your own:

You further ignore that:

Throughout all of that, Israel wanted back what was theirs 4000 years ago, but they accepted what Balfour offered, which Faisal then also accepted, but which the UN then further reduced, and Israel still defended itself from 5 attacking neighbors. And even though you agree "Jews" lived there since Abraham's time, descendants of the lost tribes may return, and the modern political state of Israel was not established soley for "Jews", because some of the returnees may be descended from Ashkenaz, therefore the entire state Israel is illegitimate and none are Jews.

And so I drew the analogy, asking, would the US legitimacy be questioned if it turned out the original settlers weren't all from Great Britain?

But as I've illustrated, you missed the point.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-09   22:43:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: Starwind (#147)

Interesting and thanks for taking the time to give a rebuttal on this YET again.. I will say I agree with you on much but on the interpretation of Revelation is where we would not be in agreement.. IMO the book.. is the story of the church.. and is not a prophesy of future events .. and the book is allegorical.

What did Paul say about Israel and an earthly kingdom? Romans 11:7 What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened... Paul was speaking of those who were chosen.. and who are called chosen under the new covenant? Christians.

The hope of Israel as spoken under both the old and new covenants was the resurrection not some earthly kingdom but a heavenly one.. which reigns in the heart of those who are of Him.. 'chosen' by Him.. those that the holy spirit resides in..

Paul addressed this ..for even then there were those who wanted to return to the law..

Gala. 2:13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, "If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?

2:19"For through the Law I died to the Law, so that I might live to God.

2:20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

and Galatians 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, R205 that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.

5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Jesus was the fulfillment of the law.. and on the cross He said..it is finished.. of what was he speaking? The fulfillment of all the prophesies..the fulfillment of God's great plan of salvation for all of mankind. So then a return to sacrifices would not a return to all that Christ had died to fulfill would that not be blasphemous? Would it not be saying that Christ's death and resurrection were not good enough?

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-10   8:05:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#159. To: Zipporah, Diana, fatidic (#150)

I will say I agree with you on much but on the interpretation of Revelation is where we would not be in agreement.. IMO the book.. is the story of the church.. and is not a prophesy of future events .. and the book is allegorical.

Yes, I presumed we would disagree on our respective interpretations of Daniel's 70th week, Ezekiel's prophecies for Israel & Temple, and the 1000-year reign.

I anticipate a series of threads to explore these differences and viewpoints, but not this thread, as the above topics warrant their own threads.

So then a return to sacrifices would not a return to all that Christ had died to fulfill would that not be blasphemous? Would it not be saying that Christ's death and resurrection were not good enough?

This question I did want to mention briefly so as to preempt confusion.

I agree Christ's death and resurrection were entirely adequate, once and for all, and not to be repeated.

More over, (assuming an Ezekiel Temple & practices and Israel restored during the 1000 year reign) if one compares the Levitical sacrifices with the Ezekiel sacrifices, a major notable difference is that there are no "guilt" sacrifices under the Ezekiel system. It is the spiritual guilt for which Christ was the substitute Lamb of God. The other sacrifices are essentially tithes & offerings, worship and confession, and equivalents continue today in Christian churches and I would expect these other sacrifices to continue in the Ezekiel Temple.

Further assuming (as I would argue in a future thread) that Christ reigns during the 1000 years and Israel is restored to land (fulfilling the OT promises), Christ is the Prince of Ezekiel 45 & 46, etc as well as Lord and Savior of all, and that as both Prince and Lamb of God, rather than offer Himself as the guilt sacrifice yet again annually for a 1000 years (which would indeed be blasphemous) instead He will reveal and reiterate that as Savior He already provided that Guilt sacrifice, some 2000 years earlier but now was Israels' 'season' to look upon the one whom they pierced and learn and accept Jesus as Savior and substitutionary sacrifice.

So, even in my Millennial view of a literal Ezekiel Temple and Israel restored for 1000 years, Christ's sacrifice was sufficent and once and for all, and the differences in the Ezekiel sacrifices vs the Levitical sacrifices reveal just that.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-11   13:16:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#160. To: Starwind (#159)

instead He will reveal and reiterate that as Savior He already provided that Guilt sacrifice, some 2000 years earlier but now was Israels' 'season' to look upon the one whom they pierced and learn and accept Jesus as Savior and substitutionary sacrifice.

I anticipate a series of threads to explore these differences and viewpoints, but not this thread, as the above topics warrant their own threads.

If Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets then why would He in fact need to? This was completed on the cross and with the resurrection..

And I agree.. re this thread.. as this is a complex subject and too much confusion w/the original topic..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-11   13:27:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Zipporah (#160)

If Jesus was the fulfillment of the law and the prophets then why would He in fact need to? This was completed on the cross and with the resurrection..

Yes, but Israel doesn't know (or accept) that yet. They will come to see that Jesus was indeed the fulfillment of the law and the prophets for Israel as well, and they will come to see this during the Millennial reign when God fulfills all His promises to Israel, in and under Jesus.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-11   13:34:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Starwind (#163)

Yes, but Israel doesn't know (or accept) that yet. They will come to see that Jesus was indeed the fulfillment of the law and the prophets for Israel as well, and they will come to see this during the Millennial reign when God fulfills all His promises to Israel, in and under Jesus.

Neither does anyone else who is lost.. until they HS has 'chosen' them..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-11   13:36:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: Zipporah (#165)

Neither does anyone else who is lost.. until they HS has 'chosen' them..

Agreed. But we now seem to be discussing the timing of the HS 'choosing' and my literal millennial interpretation is that much this HS 'choosing' God timed and predestined for Israel the nation (as opposed to individual believers like the NT Jews) for the 1000 year reign.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-11   13:45:25 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Starwind (#167)

Agreed. But we now seem to be discussing the timing of the HS 'choosing' and my literal millennial interpretation is that much this HS 'choosing' God timed and predestined for Israel the nation (as opposed to individual believers like the NT Jews) for the 1000 year reign.

This is basically the crux of our differences in scriptural interpretation..

Zipporah  posted on  2005-06-11   13:53:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 168.

#170. To: Zipporah (#168)

This is basically the crux of our differences in scriptural interpretation..

Yes. Much pivots on the hermeneutic one chooses and consistently applies. I hope to offer some facts to persuade you to question your allegorical interpretations and reconsider a more literal view. :)

By the way, regarding your views of election and freewill, do you consider yourself a Calvinist (and if so on all 5 points?), Arminian, both/neither/other, what?

I'd 'label' myself a Berean and find I disagree somewhat with nearly all Calvinist and Arminian doctrines, believing the truth is in between them. Dr. Norman Geisler (a Calvinist) wrote "Chosen but Free" and comes closest to what I think the bible actually says.

Starwind  posted on  2005-06-11 14:05:24 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 168.

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