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Title: Christ Was Not A Jew
Source:
israelect
URL Source: http://www.israelect.com/reference/WillieMartin/ChristNotAJew.htm
Published: Jun 3, 2005
Author: WillieMartin
Post Date: 2005-06-03 09:45:20 by Itisa1mosttoolate
Keywords: Christ
Views: 2199
Comments: 183
Christ Was Not A Jew Jesus Christ Was Not A Jew: Does this shock you? We certainly hope it does. For it is time that Christians woke up to the fact that they have been brainwashed by the Jews with the "big lie technique" to the falsehood that Christ was a Jew. We ask you now, to set aside all prejudice in the matter and as God states in the Bible, "Come let us reason together." (Isaiah 1:18) There are two ways that a person can be a Jew; racially (which means a cross between the descendants of Esau and True Israelites 49; There is Edom [Esau is called Edom in Genesis 36:8. And Edom is in 'Modern Jewry' Jewish Encyclopedia, 1925 edition, Vol. 5, p. 41) or religiously. Let us now see whether Christ fits either of these categories. Ninety49;five percent of the people that we know as Jews today, are mongrels; they are a product of the amalgamation of many races. The majority of the Jews are Asiatics, of Mongolian, stock, the descendants of the tribes of Khazars of Russia who accepted Judaism in 740 A.D. They are the descendants of Cain; No racial Jew is an Israelite. That's right, we repeat, NO RACIAL JEW IS AN ISRAELITE. The Bible itself identifies the Jews as the seed of Cain thereby identfying Satan as their father. (John 8:44) Christ said to the Jews, in the 23rd chapter of Matthew, verses 3349;35: "You serpents, you generation (race) of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell? Wherefore behold I send you a prophet, wise men and scribes and some of them you shall kill and crucify and some of them yuo shall scourge in your synagogues and persecute them from city to city that upon you may come all the righteous blood that has ever been shed upon the earth from the blood of righteous Abel" (Note that carefully). Here Christ is saying to the Jews that they are guilty of the murder of Abel. Jesus could not have said this unless the Jews were/are the descendants of Cain. Christ goes on to say: "Unto the blood of Zacharias, son of Brachias who you slew between the temple and the alter." It's very plan! And it's in your Bible. Christ said to the Jews "You are guilty of the death of righteous Abel because you rfather Cain murdered him." It is also well for you to note here that Jesus further blames these Jews for all the deaths of righteous people from the beginning of time right down to this day. This is not a statement of man but of our Redeem, our King, our Savior. Christ never lied and spoke only the truth; every word contained in the sixty49;six books of the Bible is the Word of Almighty God. Are the Jews then God's Chosen People as some "fogbound, lying, deceiving, Judeo49;Chrisian Clergy" would have us believe? Far from it! Rather than being God's Chosen People, they are Satan's Children! Let us turn for proof of this, to the eighth chapter of John the 42nd verse. The Jews have just said to Christ, we are God's Chosen People, God is our Father. Christ did not answer the Jews the way ninety49;nine percent of our Judeo49;Christian preachers would do today. Rather, He said in the 42nd vers, "If God were your Father you would love me for I proceeded forth and came from God. Neitherdid I come of myself, but He sent Me. Why is it that you do not understand my speech. It is because yuo cannot hear my words." (Read carefully the 44th verse) where Christ said to the Jews, "Ye are of your father the devil and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning and abode not in the truth because there is no truth in him. When he speaks oa lie, he speaks of his own for he is a liar and the father of it." The Word "Jew" A Jew is a person whose religion is Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism). The word Jew is not found in the original texts of the Scriptures, but in many English Bibles the word is an incorrect rendering of the latin word Judaeus, the Greek word Ioudaios, and the Hebrew word Yehudi. Although not found in either the Hebrew or the Greek Scriptures, the word Jew is an English rendering most often incorrectly translated from Yahudah, that is, referring to one belonging to one of the tribes of Israel (Yisrael) called Yahudah (Judah), a Yahudite. The word Jews, the plural of the word Jew, is incorrectly translated most often from the word Yahudim (descendants of the tribe of Yahudah). The letter 'J' was not in general use until after the 17th century as used in many Bibles for the word 'Jew' to substitute for the correct word Yahudite, or Yahudim. In some English Bibles we have received the word Juda, also an error in translation because the word derives from the Greek Iudaios, which in the English would be Judaios. Judaios was none other then a Greek diety (see W.H. Roscher's lexicon of mythology). As used in the Scriptures, the word 'Jew' is sometimes translated to refer to a Yudean (Judean) a native or inhabitant (which includes many diverse races and people groups living in the region) of Yudea (Judea). As the word 'American' includes many diverse peoples living in the Country called 'America'. The word very often refers to an advocate or adherent to the religion of the Yahudim, (Judaism), or it may in a few cases refer to a literal descendant of Abraham, Issac, Jacob/Israel, one of the descent of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah). In present day generic usage, the word has no relationship to the Hebrew or the Greek translated words in the Old or New Covenant Scriptures, and is associated primarily through an adherent or advocate of Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism) the religion, but not through ethnics or race. Basically, a Jew is anyone who decides to call himself/herself a Jew. Within Jewish Circles, there are two other official ways one can become a Jew. One can be born from a mother who calls herself a Jew, or one can 'convert' to become a Jew. (A convert is called a ger which literally means stranger). Being born a Jew is pretty simple. If one's mother is Jewish (of the Jewish religion) then he/she is considered a Jew, if one's mother is not of the Jewish religion, then neither is the child officially a Jew. (It doesn't matter what the father is). Modern Jew49;dah49;ism began about 1000 AD, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany the 'Father' of the Ashkenazi Jews, which constitute approximately 90% of the worlds Jews. Modern Jew49;dah49;ism is not the Scriptural worship system of the Yahudim of the Scriptures. Jews do not actively encourage conversion; to a large degree they discourage it. This is the reason Jews have never had missionaries trying to convert non49;Jews. They want the convert but the convert must be 100% committed to being a Jew. Discouraging conversion helps to filter out those 'lacking the proper degree' of commitment. If the non49;Jew still wants to become a Jew, the male is circumcised. After he is healed, he immerses himself in a mikva. A mikva is a special pool of water which is used for many religious purposes in the religion of the Jews. (It must be made according to very specific rules). A female convert only has to immerse herself. The term 'Jew', has come to be used synonymous with the term 'Israel, Israelite', however, this is error. Scriptural Israelites were never called Jews, (Yahudim), unless they were so associated by their religion. Most modern Jews are not of the tribe of Yahudah (Judah), and are not 'Israelites.' They are called Jew(s) because of their religion, Jew49;dah49;ism (Judaism). Jew, Ashkenazi (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews) After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), the Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. They prospered during the years in Assyria, and became a huge number of people. Outgrowing the land area they eventually migrated North through the 'Caucasus Mountains', and into central and Western Europe forming the European Nations, and are known as Caucasians 'whites.' As these Israelites migrated they influenced many people groups, no longer having an organized religious priesthood, and not having a nation or national identity, these migrating people, descendants of Jacob/Israel nevertheless passed on their bits and pieces of the ancient Scriptural worship system which was corrupted through their many years of captive living in pagan Assyria. During the 7th century A.D. these bits and pieces of the corrupt worship system became a form of Jew49;dah49;ism and was embraced by the Khazar King, his court, and the Khazar military class, who are descendants of Ashkenaz. This new religion of Jew49;dah49;ism, became the religion of the Khazars, and forms most of modern cultic European Jewry. In common parlance the present day 'Jew' is synonymous with the 'Ashkenazi Khazar Jew'. Scripture refers to the Ashkenaz in Gen. 10:3, and in I Chron. 1:6, as one of the sons of Gomer, who was a son of Japheth, son of Noah. Ashkenaz is also a brother of Togarmah (and a nephew of Magog) who the Kazars, according to King Joseph, (of the Kazars) claimed as their ancestor. The people who refer to themselves as Ashkenazi Jews are not Israelites, and they are not Semites because they do not descend from Noah's son Shem. They are Ashkenazi Khazar Jews, who descend from Noah's son Japheth. Approximately 8549;90 percent of the Jews in the world call themselves Ashkenazi Jews. Present49;day Jew49;dah49;ism, was formally formed into it's basic cultic form about 1,000 years ago, (according to the Jews), when 49; Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz, Germany, published a ban on bigamy. This marks the recorded beginning of the Ashkenazi Jews*, and Franco49;German halachic** creativity. The word 'Ashkenazi' is not Hebrew for the word Germany, although the name has become 'associated' with Germany because many Ashkenazi Jews organized in Russia, Eastern Europe and Western Mongolia. *Ashkenazi 49; (Franco49;German, Eastern and Central European Jews). **halachic 49; loose 'interpretations' of Old Testament laws Jew, Sephardim (Spanish Jews) After the Northern Kingdom of Israel was conquered by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V, in 74549;722 BCE, (for their sin before Yahweh), The Israelites were exiled into (Assyria), 2 Kings 17:549;7. The King then imported people groups from his country (Assyria) to replace the exiled Israelites to maintain and control the land of the exiles. The Sepharvaim were one of these people groups, along with Cuthahites, Arrahites, 2 Kings 17:24. They mingled with each other, along with Edomites, who had migrated Northward from Idumea (field of Edom), after Israel and the Yahudim (Judeans) were exiled. Adad and Anu were ancient gods of Babylonia and were also the gods of these pagan Sepharvaim people. The Sephardim Yudeans (Judeans) are a mongrel people whose descent is directly from a mixture of this Assyrian people group and the remnant of escaped Yudeans (Judeans) along with Edomites who had migrated into the land originally occupied by the Kingdom of Israel and the kingdom of Yahudah (Judah). This made their religion also of mixed character, 2 Kings 17:2449;41. The people known as "Spanish Jews," are descended from the Canaanites, the people who colonized Carthage. Following its sack by Rome, they adopted this Sepharvaim, or Sephardim name for deceptive purposes and constitute 5% of world Jewry today. The Sephardim Jews speak Latino, a mixture of Spanish and Hebrew. The Sephardim Jews migrated West through Egypt, then North into Spain from Judea and Samaria before, during, and after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70 CE,. This migration became known as the "Jewish 'Sephardim' Diaspora". Today, these Sephardim Jews are still using their ancient adopted name Sephardim (the spelling is a transliteration into English and not of significance). They settled in Spain, Portugal, the Eastern Mediterranean, Italy, the Balkans, Salonica and Macedonia, eventually emigrating into France and England, and Western Europe. The Sepharviam Yudeans (Judeans) were known as Samaritans during the time of Messiah, because they were living in Samaria, which was the area from which Israel was removed by the Assyrian King Shalmaneser V. The twelve apostles during the time if Messiah, were instructed not to enter the cities of the Samaritans, Matt. 10:5. Although the True Israelites of tribal descent, living in Samaria did received the witness of Yahshua and the message of redemption from the apostles, Acts, 1:8. Some of the mixed Samaritans also became proselytes to the Christian faith, Acts 8:449;25. The Sephardim Jews, (or Sepharviam Jews) are not of Israelite blood; they are not of the tribe of Yahudah although they were called Yudeans, 'Judeans', as an inhabitant, i.e. person living in the land originally occupied by the tribe of Yahudah of Israel). Their descent is mixed from Edom/Esau Canaanite stock. The Sephardim Jews, like the Ashkenazi Khazar Jews are not a Semitic people. The word Sephardim is not a Hebrew word for Spain, although the name has become 'associated' with Spain because many Sephardim Jews organized in Spain. Jew49;dah49;ism, (modern 'Judaism') Jew49;dah49;ism, is a cultic (ritual49;istic) religion which originated approximately 1000 CE, and is traced to Rabbenu Gershon of Mainz Germany through the publishing of his 'halachic creativity' (interpretation of Old Covenant laws), he thereby established the beginning of the modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism. Today the religion is also greatly influenced by the Babylonian Talmud, an ancient Pagan ritual49;listic system of various extreme opinions, interpretations, codes, rules, and regulations. The modern cultic religion of Jew49;dah49;ism has nothing in common with the Scriptural Cultic system of worship which was completely destroyed by Messiah as a religious system in 70 CE at the destruction of Yerushalayim (Jerusalem), Herod's Temple, and through the establishment of the New Covenant through Yahshua Messiah. Christianity, as a religious system of Faith, replaced the ancient system of Cultic (ritual49;istic) sacrificial worship. Jewish A term incorrectly applied to reflect anything pertaining to a Yahudite, a descendant of the tribe of Yahudah. In common use, the term 'Jewish' is now applied to things pertaining to the Jews. Scriptural accuracy has no bearing on the use of the modern term 'Jewish'.See also the word 'Israel'
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#72. To: Starwind (#62)
Oh yeah, Willie Martin and others believe that the caucasion people are the sole ethnic descendants of Jacob/Israel. I'm not so sure. While I believe that white people are descended from Jacob/Israel, I also believe other races could also be descendants as well. We don't know positively what the racial make-up of the hand-maidens that bore him children happened to be. The early migrations of the Tribes cannot be positively traced, however, much evidence supports the notion that whites are his descendants. The one factor that is very hard to deny is the fulfillment of the Abrahamic Promises. Those calling themselves Jews today cannot even claim the first one, that they would be many Nations and an innumerable multitude.
And the Pope is not Catholic. Give me a break...
Agreed: So what about when He said to the Pharisees (Talmudic Rabbis) Ye are of your FATHER the DEVIL and the lusts thereof ye do ... he was a "MURDERER" from the beginning (reference to the 1st murderer, Cain) and the truth does not abide in you for he (their father) is a liar and the FATHER of it (reference to the Father of lies the serpent/satan).
The late Dr. Oliver was on the right track. What he wrote in "The Last Stand" is far more plausible, i.e. less preposterous, than the biblical myth and dogma accepted as fact by true believers. "Every religion is true oned way or another. It is true when understood metaphorically. But when it gets stuck in its own metaphores, interpreting them as facts, then you are in trouble." JOSEPH CAMPBELL, THE POWER OF MYTH (1988)
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
IMO its quite obvious what Jesus meant.. he was speaking SPIRITUALLY not physically.. It is very wrong headed to take one scripture and build an entire doctrine from that scripture.. Two or more 'witnesses' ..God in human form as Jesus came to earth to deal with the spiritual problem of mankind..
Caucasian means of the Caucasus Mountains (bounded by the Black and Caspian Seas to the east and west, Russia to the north, and Turkey and Iran to the south). Willie Martin claims "Your Savior, YAHSHUA (JESUS CHRIST), was a Caucasian", ie Christ came from Caucasia (the Caucasus Mountains) or that his descendants did and came to American where caucasians are called "whites". Think about your argument. Jesus was a Caucasian and his descendants. You are arguing Jesus Christ biologically fathered a race of children from the Caucasus Mountains. Such is your world view that you don't want screwed with (well screwed with any further).
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Not going to try to convince you that Christianity is truth.. for that revelation must come from God Himself through the Holy Spirit..
Read your own words. Jesus was speaking directly to the Pharisees. He was speaking to their spiritual leadership from Satan. Christ did not say all twelve tribes of Israel (Hebrews, Israelites, Jews whatever name you wish to use) are of their father the devil. He was speaking to and about the Pharisees, castigating them for their religious falsehoods. But you already knew that.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I see no problem with the discussion/debate on this or any other topic. As long as each person is attempting to support their point of view with research and with the absense of personal attacks, I believe that this can be productive and informative for all. I would hope that we are all capable of recognizing that the various positions of posters are their individual opinions and not that of the forum as a whole.
I don't reject Christ, just the biblical myth and dogma. The belief that becomes truth for me come from my inner God-given light.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
IMO the biggest flaw is the reference to the Abrahamic covenant, in that they say it was a fleshly promise.. but of course, repeatedly in scripture it states that the seed of Abraham are those of FAITH.. the people of faith inherit the promises of the Abrahamic covenant.. Gal 3:7 7Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. and Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ... therefore, it is not the flesh.. and this is why in Galatians 8And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.... it is said the GOSPEL was preached unto Abraham.. it was the promise of Christ Jesus.. to those of faith..
Agreed. Without personal attacks, and I would venture to say without spamming a thread as well. Any topic can be discussed with civility. It is the lack of civility which tears forums apart, not the diversity of views.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
So you say you do not reject Him but you reject His words .. this to me makes no sense..
Exactly..
Thomas Jefferson had problems with the Bible so he wrote his own version. Perhaps, through a feeling of inadquacy, I haven't attempted such a venture
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
That makes sense. I think the heart has to be in the right place. It's just that over the years I've run into too many Christians who are either uppity (for no apparent reason) or think because they believe in Jesus they can lie, cheat and steal, get drunk or just do whatever. I admire those Christians who do behave according to the laws God has given us.
Second, God does not decide who gets into Heaven and who doesn't. Individual people decide whether they want to have clean souls or not. I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here.. People decide themselves? What if a murderer said he had no remorse and thought his soul was clean? What about a sociopath? That's another good point; what about people who are sociopaths, have damaged brains or are just born with brain-wiring that makes them incapable of caring about others, or makes them highly impulsive and prone to bad behavior? Because we are not all the same, everyone does not start out on the same level, everyone is put together differently.
American Citizen?
Well the bible does have a prophesy about this and Christians: “And I shall give them one heart, and shall put a new spirit within them. And I shall take the heart of stone out of their flesh and give them a heart of flesh, that they may walk in My statutes and keep My ordinances, and do them. Then they will be My people, and I shall be their God” ..so.. it is about the 'heart'.. of course not the physical heart.. but it's not only just by our choices we make but God Himself changes those who know Him..
Hm Jefferson had some issues of which I was not aware..
A Goggle search will add to your knowledge of Thomas Jefferson. I might add that many of the founders were deists.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
Well said, and spot on, Zip. It's always about redefining Jesus and His ministry that separates Christians from cults. It is pure evil to redefine Jesus and seek to ensnare others in a system of bondage and spiritual darkness. False prophets/teachers have evil fruits always characterized by hate, bondage and fear. The so-called Christian Identity movement are hate mongers and race baiters and liars, like their father the devil.
Jesus speaking to the Jews: John 8:42-47 43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. 44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. 45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not. 46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me? 47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
In the Footsteps of Heroes
Thanks, you've added "specific evidence" to support this article. "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not." Isaiah 66:4, KJV "... because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" 2 Thessalonians 2:10b-11, KJV
John 7:13 John 19:38 John 20:19 In the Footsteps of Heroes
The Self-Chosen terrorized Mel Gibson until he deleted this from The Passion of the Christ Matthew 27:25 In the Footsteps of Heroes
Why does the Pope wear a Yamaka? http://www.zionjudaica.com/project/shop/subcategory.php?catid=43
I may disagree and vehemently disagree.. but as Chris said debate and discussion as long as it's civil.. is the goal. So if you disagree please add to the discussion.. for I think it's important that those who do take issue with others stance or beliefs contribute so there is both sides to this issue or any other..
Are these the scriptures that you were refering to?
#2 a newborn is called "American", no matter where the mother came from American immigration laws have zilch to do with whether or not Jesus was a Jew. Have you been drinking?
As my man running for govenor of the pitiful state of TX would say, "They don't make jews like Jesus, anymore." Friedman for Govenor
{{{{{{kisses}}}}}}
He was speaking to the children of satan ... otherwise he was a politician ... not God. (I don't think God needs to use rhetoric to make His point.) Otherwise maybe he was kidding ... just joking around, trying to look important. When one considers that God spoke and "nothing" became "everything" ... one must also consider how careful God must be when speaking. When Christ told those little serpents who and what they were ... he was speaking in the physical ... not the spiritual !
Otherwise maybe he was kidding ... just joking around, trying to look important. When one considers that God spoke and "nothing" became "everything" ... one must also consider how careful God must be when speaking. When Christ told those little serpents who and what they were ... he was speaking in the physical ... not the spiritual ! Not so.. Jesus was speaking of their spiritual condition.. for what did He say? My kingdom is NOT of this world.. The people wanted to make Jesus King they too thought His purpose was physical.. so: "When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone" (John 6:15)... Repeatedly scripture tells us that the inheritance is to those of FAITH.. the seed of Abraham are those of faith.. therefore, if Jesus was speaking of the physical.. then would it not be said that those who inherit the promises of Abraham be due to genetics rather than of faith?
After thinking about your questions and seeing the generally good answers you got from Zipporah and Barak, I thought what might be more helpful is to have a larger context of God's eternal kingdom in which to understand the bible, a kind of 'bible big picture'. What follows is, IMO, biblical, but I did not attempt to tie every sentance to a verse. Undoubtedly you may have questions and some may have arguments. I'm willing to offer clarification or scripture backup as may be requested. Everything flows from God's attributes: God is loving. Somewhat like a human who wants a faithful loving spouse on whom to lavish affection, gifts and kindness, God wants to lavish His love and gifts on someone. It is the very nature of Love to want to be loving, but on what?. On mankind. God created man in His own image (a likeness to God's spirit and a physiology that Christ Himself would 'wear') to be loved by God, and to worship and love God in return. But to genuinely love requires free will. A preprogrammed or forced "love" is not love at all. So for God to be genuinely loved by His creation, that creation must have the free will to disobey as well as to love in return. But God is perfect. Disobedience is sin and God will not tolerate sin and sin can not exist in God's presence. Somewhat like a deepsea diver who can not survive at the surface with excess nitrogen still dissolved in their blood, the reduced surface pressure allows the nitrogen to "boil over", killing the diver. Similarly, sinful man can not survive in the presence of God because God's holiness 'kills' any sin-filled creature in His presence. The sin must be removed for the creature to survive in God's presence, as well as be acceptable to God. God has perfect foreknowledge. God is 'outside of time' and knows the future, including the decisions we will or will not make. God foreknew when he created mankind (to be loved and to genuinely love God in return) that mankind would freely, willingly disobey and sin instead of love God. God is sovereign and has established laws of holy behavior (like the 10 commandments) and God is justice. God can not allow lawbreaking and sin to go unpunished. God does not let people off, plea bargain, waive penalties, or grant parole. But God is merciful. God wants to forgive the disobedience and remove the sin from whomsoever freely and willingly wants the sin to be removed and to be forgiven. But the only person who could 'pay the price' of sin and live to tell about it, is God. And so in an amazing act of mercy, love and self-sacrifice, God sacrificed Himself (Jesus Christ) on the Cross to pay the penalty (under God's law) of all the sins of all mankind for all time. God chose Israel to be His people, to be both a living testimony of God's existence and character, and to bear the Messiah (God's salvation) Jesus Christ. And through the Hebrew people, God has demonstrated His character and offered salvation to all the world, first to the Jew then to the Gentile. And so Jesus is 100% God and 100% human. Only a human can stand in humanity's place of punishment. Only God can pay the price to redeem all humanity. God substituted sinless Jesus on the Cross for us. God substitutes Jesus' perfection for us in exchange for our sinfulness. Jesus got our perfect punishment, we got Jesus' sinless perfection in God's eyes; quite a loving and merciful deal wouldn't you say? The only expectation from God is that we (of our own God-given freewill): This goes back to the Old Testament sacrifices. Blood means and provides "life". Sin results in "death". Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin. When someone offered a sacrifice they had to lay their hands on it in the presence of God and the high priest. The unblemished animal (a lamb of man, raised and brought by a man) was offered to be killed (its life blood drained out) as a substitute for their sin (unblemished physical life exchanged for blemished spiritual death). Laying their hands on their sacrifice was how they identified their personal sin with their personal sacrifice - not for God's benefit but for their own acknowledgment and admission. " Acceptance" of Christ's sacrifice and offer of salvation is the same identification of each persons sin with their personal sacrifice, Jesus - the Lamb of God. In the Old Testament sacrifices, a mere animal was not sufficient to permanently pay for sin, it only "rolled it over" for another year, but it taught the Israelites (and us) the purpose of sacrifice and to look forward to the day when the Lamb of God (Jesus Christ) would shed His sinless blood, sufficient to redeem all mankind permanently in God's eyes once and for all. For those who reject Christ's offer, imagine the anger of a father whose son sacrificed his life in a war for a neighbor's kid and that kid says to the grieving father, "I didn't need or want your son to die for me, I can do it myself. Thanks but no thanks, pal. Besides, you don't really have a son do you - you old fool". Now try to imagine Christ's suffering (both physical and spiritual) as well as His obedience and faithfulness (He shed His spiritual robes to take on human form), and then try to imagine God the Father's ultimate wrath at those who would dismiss Christ and His suffering as nonexistent, needless or trivial, or worse, try to exploit it for self gain or to oppose God's purposes. The Lake of Fire awaits. For those who turn to Jesus, in my experience, they do because God's Love has won them over. They think about what they have done, the eternal punishment they have earned, and what God still offers in spite of that. Eternity in Heaven. It's somewhat like Prince Charming finds (Sin)derella after the ball; she dirty, filthy and oppressed by her wicked stepmother and stepsisters, despairing and hopeless in her condition; the Prince, love in his eyes and heart, seeing her for who she truly can be (a pearl of very great price), and the Prince steps in, buys out the stepmother & stepsisters and says "I love you. Please marry me. Wait for me. I'll come back to get you and take home with me to my kingdom and castle". That is something like what Jesus is offering us. Would you not shout His name to the rooftops for the kind of wonderful person He is? So, God in His foreknowledge and all knowing omnipotence, looks to the heart to see if the confession and remorse are sincere and genuine. Liars and posers are seen by God for what they are, and God drums his fingers and waits for them to get it. Those who are sincere, God forgives, notes their names in the Book of Life, gives them the Holy Spirit as a kind of 'down payment' to seal the deal and regenerate their spirit (so as to eternally cancel the second death), and then begins the process of life transformation within the new believer - they are "born again of the Spirit" and their subsequent Christ-like or spirit-lead works demonstrate their genuine faith - the holy spirit transformation is evident in their works, in their entire life. By our love they will know us. But the transformation is gradual, it is a process. The deep sea diver is not instantly brought to the surface nor is all the nitrogen removed at depth. It is gradually removed in a slow steady ascent. There are obviously false Christians, like there are false anythings. Anyone can claim anything. But the evidence is in their fruit or our fruit. Look at the gifts and judge the fruit and know whom is truly following Christ. Transformed believers do not continuously sin. We make mistakes. We fall back. But we get up, seek God's help to be better and get back in the fight. We decrease sinful behavior, striving (but seldom achieving) to stop altogether. We strive to be more holy & righteous. Our own sin becomes loathsome and we despair as did Paul when we do what we don't want, and don't do what we do want. If you don't see the Spirit at war with the flesh, it's likely because the flesh has no opposition. Brokenness is the sign of a Spirit-indwelt transformed life. One of the mysteries is that God not only created us with free will to choose to accept or reject Him, God also predestined (chose with foreknowledge) who would be saved. It is a kind of spiritual friction or tension between two seemingly irreconcilable concepts. Choosen by God but created free to choose otherwise. But then Gods thoughts are not our thoughts nor His ways our ways. A great deal of the more serious theological debates pivot around this very issue. I mention it because it deserves careful thought, study and prayer, but you can rest in God's written assurances, that if you sincerely believe on Jesus then you will have eternal life, and this issue becomes interesting but somewhat after the fact (of your salvation). Almost as if God wanted a theological conundrum to occupy "the kids" and give them a reason to search out the scriptures. So, God wanted to lavish His love on His creatures and be loved by them in return. He created them with free will, knowing they would sin, knowing He would sacrifice His Son for that sin, knowing how narrow was that gate and that only a few would find it. Life on earth is a kind of boot camp for Heaven. "What is life, but preparation for eternity" as Erwin Lutzer put it. A series of good works prepared before hand that we might lay up treasure in heaven - a training ground for our minds, souls and spirits, to observe and learn God's ways and prepare to co-reign as His Bride for all eternity.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Amen... and the SINderella analogy ..excellent.
Thank you kindly.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
I believe that is indeed the case. Too many people expect life to be perfect, then become angry when everything is not to their liking. This was an all-around excellent post, many good points and info!! Oddly I understand the space/time issue, like we are embedded in a space/time graph while on earth, but when we die our souls come out of it, I realized that some time ago, time and space only exist in the physical life.
I did want to elaborate a bit on this question. Zipporah answered: We were (many still are) captives to sin. Enslaved to both a sinful nature (a fleshly, carnal proclivity to disobey God's law) and destined for the ultimate penalty of eternal spiritual death - separation from God - perhaps what Jesus experienced on the Cross when He cried out "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" ie Where are you? My entire eternal existence up to now was in close intimate contact with you, Abba (Daddy) and now I'm alone, in spiritual darkness, cutoff from contact. If it tormented Jesus, imagine the eternal torment of those condemned. But while we were yet slaves to sin on Satan's auction block, the only person who could afford the price stepped up and bought us. We were slaves. We had no say in the matter. Satan had no legal grounds to object, the asking price was offered. In fact Satan was delighted thinking Christ would be dead and Satan left to rule the slaves anyway. But God. (An amazing two words). But God, raised Jesus from the dead. And Satan, who as the father of sin bore responsibility for Christ being accused, scourged, and crucified, Christ (who unlike anyone else in all history was perfectly innocent and blameless of all the charges Satan had brought against Jesus) was now Satan's downfall because for the first time Satan had effectively accused and convicted an innocent man. But God, (in Jesus) alive and risen now 'owns' the slaves and Satan is guilty of false accusations and murder. Jesus not only redeemed all humanity but He turned the heavenly legal tables on Satan.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
Better still, we will never taste death, and if Jesus' resurrected body is any indication, we will have physical existance that transcends space and time. After resurrection, Christ entered the upper room appearing to the now 11, seemingly "beamed in" through walls and locked doors. To doubting Thomas Jesus said stick your fingers in the wounds in my hands and my side. In another passage he was hungry and ate food. Resurrected physical bodies that feel, eat, transport across time and space with eternal lifetime warranty against rust, decay, parts & labor.
(The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the only true good news)
The people wanted to make Jesus King they too thought His purpose was physical ... then would it not be said that those who inherit the promises of Abraham be due to genetics rather than of faith? The "My Kingdom is not of this world" is a statement made to Pilate at another time under different circumstances altogether. Pilate wasn't a Pharisee. What about when he told the Pharisees that their teachings made His Father's Laws of no effect, was that "spiritual" too ? The Pharisees didn't want to make Him King, they wanted Him dead ! The debate that has gone on forever related to Faith vs. Grace isn't the one we were having. I'm not completely settled on that one. However, I have a theory relative to genetics. An earlier discussion on this thread mentioned "redemption" ... In "common law", which came to us from Great Britain and was part of their culture from ancient times, and was even known in Biblical times, redemption was a legal situation wherein a family member could take the place of another family member in paying the price for a crime. Doesn't the Bible say we were paid for with a price and wasn't that price the death of Christ? The possibility that there is a difference between "redemption" and "salvation" should not be ignored. I'll be the last one to say "God" can't do whatever He chooses, He being the Potter and me the clay. This scenario gets into whether one conceives predestination and free will as compatible. DNA and genetic markers sure might help when the "harvest time" comes, and we know that genetic predispositions exist for many things, including life-span and disease. The teachings of James and Paul are at variance, one teaching works, the other teaching grace. James writings weren't placed into the Bible until 500 A.D. James stayed in Jerusalem and Paul went to the gentiles (nations). Luther castigated James and supported Paul. (I honestly don't know for sure but do know that Jesus stated he didn't come to change the law, but to fulfill it, while also saying not a jot or tittle of the law would change, and scripture also says that God never changes, being the same yesterday, today and forever.) Sometimes I think it's presumptuous of us to have these debates. In the end it isn't going to matter what each of us thinks because ultimately "THERE IS TRUTH" whether we have it exactly right or not. I only try to keep my mind free from the indoctrination that I received from the Catholic Church, which has little bearing on truth when compared to scriptures. Paul stated: "Study the scriptures to show thyself approved" ... is this not works in some degree ? One last thing: Many scriptures have God referring to "MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" ... isn't this a physical reference ... and if not why do we have this flesh to lug around ? This is strictly food for thought. John, the one considered to be the one Christ loved or his "insider" favorite, wrote from Patmos of the false prophet that would convince many to worship the beast, and that there were anti-christs among us even at that time. Paul was a pharisee, learned under Gamaliel, the most learned of all Pharisees, and Paul never walked with Jesus. While John is writng about the destruction of those accepting the Mark of the Beast being imposed upon people by some "govt" authority in Revelations, Paul is writing that we should submit to all government authority in Romans 13. This is a problem area for me. Faith, as we have generally been instructed through churchianity, is to believe in Christ as the Savior that was born of a virgin, suffered died and rose from the dead to pay the price for our sins. Satan believes, will he be saved ?
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#73. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#0)
Christ Was Not A Jew
#74. To: Starwind (#71)
Zipporah: One cannot follow Christ Jesus and reject His own words..for then you are following 'another' Christ..
#75. To: Zipporah (#61)
Well to say this is preposterous is an understatement..
#76. To: noone222 (#74)
#77. To: noone222 (#72)
Oh yeah, Willie Martin and others believe that the caucasion people are the sole ethnic descendants of Jacob/Israel. I'm not so sure.
much evidence supports the notion that whites are his descendants.
#78. To: Zoroaster (#75)
#79. To: noone222 (#74)
So what about when He said to the Pharisees (Talmudic Rabbis) Ye are of your FATHER the DEVIL and the lusts thereof ye do
#80. To: Starwind, fatidic, noone222, Zipporah, ALL (#71)
#81. To: Zipporah (#78)
#82. To: Starwind (#79)
#83. To: christine, Zipporah (#80)
As long as each person is attempting to support their point of view with research and with the absense of personal attacks,
#84. To: Zoroaster (#81)
I don't reject Christ, just the biblical myth and dogma
#85. To: Starwind (#83)
It is the lack of civility which tears forums apart, not the diversity of views.
#86. To: Zipporah (#84)
I don't reject Christ, just the biblical myth and dogma So you say you do not reject Him but you reject His words .. this to me makes no sense..
#87. To: Zipporah, Barak (#34)
I don't think that good works will get you into Heaven, but your works spring from what you believe. As James said, "Show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith by what I do."
#88. To: Zipporah, Barak (#35)
To: Barak
#89. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#43)
A pregnat Mexican woman comes over the border and has a baby. What is the baby called?
#90. To: Diana (#87)
That makes sense. I think the heart has to be in the right place.
#91. To: Zoroaster (#86)
Thomas Jefferson had problems with the Bible so he wrote his own version. Perhaps, through a feeling of inadquacy, I haven't attempted such a venture
#92. To: Zipporah (#91)
Hm Jefferson had some issues of which I was not aware..
#93. To: Zipporah, Starwind, Christine (#69)
Cults come in many forms.. and I see them all as having the same problem.. whether they be Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, The Way, the United Pentatcostal Church and even Christian Identity.. they preach another Christ another Jesus..another gospel.
#94. To: Zoroaster (#92)
42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
#95. To: 1776 (#94)
#96. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#0)
Howbeit no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews.
And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
#97. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#95)
Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.
#98. To: 1776 (#97)
#99. To: fatidic (#93)
Well said, and spot on, Zip. It's always about redefining Jesus and His ministry that separates Christians from cults. It is pure evil to redefine Jesus and seek to ensnare others in a system of bondage and spiritual darkness. False prophets/teachers have evil fruits always characterized by hate, bondage and fear. The so-called Christian Identity movement are hate mongers and race baiters and liars, like their father the devil.
#100. To: 1776 (#94)
#101. To: Itisa1mosttoolate (#52)
#1 for all practicle purposes there is immigration laws
#102. To: Zipporah (#100)
#103. To: christine (#80)
#104. To: Starwind (#79)
But you already knew that.
#105. To: noone222 (#104)
He was speaking to the children of satan ... otherwise he was a politician ... not God. (I don't think God needs to use rhetoric to make His point.)
#106. To: Diana, Zipporah, Barak, fatidic, Christine, noone222 (#25)
#107. To: Starwind (#106)
#108. To: Zipporah (#107)
#109. To: Starwind (#106)
Life on earth is a kind of boot camp for Heaven.
#110. To: Diana, Zipporah (#28)
Another thing, people talk about Jesus dying for our sins, as if no one else has ever died to save others, but there have been lots of people throughout history who have died so that others could live, such as countless soldiers and assorted brave souls. That's another point that has always bothered me.
True there have been people who've died for others but.. those people couldnt pay the price for sin.. only a perfect person.. one without sin would be able to do so.. and only Jesus Christ who is God Himself in human form was born without sin and died without sin.. So .. God Himself paid the debt for us all..
I would add to that that Christ's sacrifice was a redemption, like that of buying a slave on an auction block.
#111. To: Diana (#109)
but when we die our souls come out of it, I realized that some time ago, time and space only exist in the physical life.
#112. To: Zipporah (#105)
Not so.. Jesus was speaking of their spiritual condition.. for what did He say? My kingdom is NOT of this world..
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