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Title: The Genesis of the Smears (JOHN COLE ASKS ABOUT FREEPER ICUWHATUDO)
Source:
John Cole's Balloon Juice
URL Source: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8849
Published: Oct 11, 2007
Author: John Cole
Post Date: 2007-10-11 14:47:37 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 2133
Comments: 176
The Genesis of the Smears By: John Cole October 11, 2007 at 12:53 pm Appears to have been an aide to Mitch McConnell, according to the Communists at ThinkProgress: On Monday morning, Don Stewart sent an email with the following text to reporters: Seen the latest blogswarm? Apparently, there’s more to the story on the kid (Graeme Frost) that did the Dems’ radio response on SCHIP. Bloggers have done a little digging and turned up that the Dad owns his own business (and the building it’s in), seems to have some commercial rental income and Graeme and a sister go to a private school that, according to its website, costs about $20k a year ‹for each kid‹ despite the news profiles reporting a family income of only $45k for the Frosts. Could the Dems really have done that bad of a job vetting this family? In the email, Stewart attacks Democrats for allegedly doing a bad job “vetting this family.” That effort to blame Democrats for the smear campaign seems to have swayed some reporters, as CNN this morning claimed that the real story is that “the Democrats didn’t do as much of a vetting as they could have done.” What is so surprising about all of this is not that all of the stuff in the leaked email has turned out to be completely false- that is just amusing. What is surprising is THE SPEED with which the “citizen journalists” ran with this, and echoed everything the leaked email did- just like good little soldiers. It was viral in no time. I would not be surprised if Malkin, Limbaugh, and some folks at the NRO were not in the coterie of ‘reporters’ this was emailed to, nor would I be surprised if they got it from a friend of a friend (despite pretending to be different from the beltway crowd, all of the above are insiders to the Washington game, despite their protests otherwise). I’d like to know a little more about the freeper who ran with this in the first place, giving Michelle and others their “in” to run with the story without having to be the ones to take the blame for doing it. Who is icuwhatudo? What is her/his real identity? How is this person connected to the McConnell aide or the reporters who received this list. Or was it just a coincidence? If I prided myself in being a citizen journalist, those are the questions I would be asking. And does anyone have any pictures of his living room?
ThinkProgress has obtained an email that congressional sources tell us was sent to reporters by Sen. McConnell’s communications director Don Stewart.
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Hey, I just drove by Don Stewart’s house! You should see the thing! It’s huge! Must cost a million bucks, with granite countertops and all! October 11th, 2007 at 1:29 pm Interesting comment on John Cole's thread.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
from USAToday From Daily Kos: They web published the home address of SCHIP family - what you can do
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I urge people to read your third link, the one from Daily Kos. It's truly shocking.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
When did icwhatudo's posting originate?
The level of organized hateful activity and the level of vitriol directed toward one average American family who already has a plateful of misfortune is truly astonishing.
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I don't know. I'd like to know.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Posted on 10/06/2007 10:42:57 PM PDT by icwhatudo Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD. Early Sunday morning east coast time. The "Not So Poor" 12 Year Old Who Rebutted Bush on SCHIP Veto
Saying the family wasn’t vetted well isn’t exactly a smear. That’s not exactly it. “Not vetted” by itself is not a smear. But the rest of that e-mail provides and/or passes a long a number of choice tidbits, all incorrect, that were intended for use by smear-ers. They make over $45K, they own commercial property, expensive house, private school, etc.—all the talking points we’ve heard from Rush Limbaugh on down (or up). At the end of the e-mail you have the “vetted” comment, which lo and behold starts showing up in blog posts, troll comments and even CNN commentators (“Gosh, it sure looks like the Democrats didn’t do enough vetting…”) The “vetting” comment is what nails it as disseminated information that has found its way into the blogswarm. It’s the “giveaway” that seems to point to official GOP participation in feeding information and talking points to the rest of the world, without McConnell voicing anything himself. October 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm Another interesting comment from the John Cole thread. I'd be surprised if Republican Party oppo research were not involved. But the shocking possibility that I cannot dismiss from my mind is that they used information from the intelligence agencies.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
So let me get this straight: a. Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years? b. Are the Frosts not owners of commercial property worth $160,000 which brings in rental income, which also has enough cash equity in it to allow the Frosts to sell and make a profit to supplement their "meager" middle class life style? c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? d. If you were running a private school in Baltimore with its well documented poverty and crime and visible minority children living in dire circumstances, would you give the Frosts' not 1 but 2 children access to the small number of free ride scholarships at your school? Are the Frosts' children living in "special challenging" circumstances that they are needy for a "leg up?" e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage or did the big bad reich wing evil bloggers seek the anonymous Frosts family and drag them out to front and center stage?
Stop being so rational. It bothers people. e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage And that's a dangerous thing to do. For anybody.
"I searched through rebellion, drugs, diets, mysticism, religions, intellectualism and much more, only to begin to find...that truth is basically simple - and feels good, clean and right." - Chick Corea
Second mortgages come with a monthly payment, and you are assuming they could find private insurance. With such serious preexisting conditions it is very doubtful the Frosts would find a private health care provider for any price. And if they did, the insurance company probably wouldn't pay for all the necessary therapy. This happened to a middle-class family I know with one autistic child. Scholarships are awarded for a variety of reasons. It sounds like the Frosts were grateful and willing to share how the SCHIP program helped them, but they are no longer giving interviews because of the GOP hate machine.
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b. Are the Frosts not owners of commercial property worth $160,000 which brings in rental income, which also has enough cash equity in it to allow the Frosts to sell and make a profit to supplement their "meager" middle class life style? c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? d. If you were running a private school in Baltimore with its well documented poverty and crime and visible minority children living in dire circumstances, would you give the Frosts' not 1 but 2 children access to the small number of free ride scholarships at your school? Are the Frosts' children living in "special challenging" circumstances that they are needy for a "leg up?" e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage or did the big bad reich wing evil bloggers seek the anonymous Frosts family and drag them out to front and center stage? A. I guess they could sell it and live on the street. How do you know they could take out a second mortgage, and is that fiscally wise if you have variable income? How do you know the cost of the countertops? In any case, wouldn't that be a wise investment for selling the house in the future? Would an insurance company accept two children with brain damage and expensive, long-term medical needs? B. And you know they own it how? And you know they get rental income from it how? C. Yes, they would have passed. In fact, they did. D. Let's see, the kid was undeserving, eh? It would have cost his parents half their gross income to send him to that school. The other kid is not on scholarship; her tuition is paid by the state. Why should the kid NOT get a scholarship? He's qualified. Or is this some liberal conspiracy? E. It's suddenly a crime to tell your story and support a program that helped you so that it can help others? Because you're in a rather lousy situation, you should have no voice in how our country is run? You're as despicable as Malkin is.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
a. I've read reports in the NYTin addition to other MSM reports about what properties the Frosts own. They own a greatly appreciated residential property and they own a commercial property valued at $160,00 from which they receive rental income. b. The state of Maryland does not have a means test for getting SCHIP funds. So no the Frosts did not pass a means test and yes they would have failed a means test with the assets they own. You are ill-informed or self-deluded - I'm not sure which - so don't try to pass along untruths to others just because you want to believe in the Frosts. c. You try to conflate pre-accident and post-accident events to confuse readers because you can't provide evidence to support your emotional need to vindicate the Frosts' continued irresponsible behavior - irresponsible for not providing proper medical insurance for their dependents though they had the means to do so; irresponsible for taking advantage of a lax state system in Maryland that neither uses means testing or takes into consideration a family's fungable financial assets before dispensing SCHIP funds; irresponsible for taking funds from a tax supported program whose intent was that the $ should be used for children of families living below the poverty line: irresponsible for allowing a minor child to be used as a pawn by Dem Party officials to promote a party agenda; irresponsible for exposing their family as whole to public scrutiny and ridicule with no thought given to possible negative consequences that those family members might suffer. Your continued personal attacks on me and steady stream of insults the past few days are inexcusable and frankly intolerable. I have given you a pass because I realize you have health problems yourself and you may have mis-interpreted the exposure of the Frosts' questionable actions as an attack on your dream of having Universal Health Care implemented in America. But you are no longer getting a pass from me. You are rude and coarse and you have conducted yourself like an ignorant bully. I'm one of the few posters here who has had the courage to stand up to the faux Pollyanna version image that political partisans like yourself and aristeides and robin and Fred Mertz want everyone to believe regarding the Frosts. To even question irregularities in their story has caused me suffer irrational attacks from all of you which is ridiculous. And because I refuse to get on your emotionally unstrung attack on eeevil reich wingers being the cause of this public spectacle that back fired on the Dems, you accuse me of "going over to to the Dark Side" and of "being one of them" - ooooooh, scary stuff - "they" have taken over my body. Wrap your minds around this earth shattering fact - the Frosts do not have a lock on sympathy or forgiveness for the stupid things they have done. The Frosts have chosen to be willing victims to the investigations that the "other side" would most certainly bring to bear the minute the Frosts decided to bring their holier than thou grand standing selves out of the shadows to the front of media microphones. Ma and Pa Frost chose to make their family fair game. And if the shoe were reversed and the Frosts represented a middle class family who took the stage on behalf of the GOP to talk about how they used their assets to protect their family from the effects of a catastrophic accident, you and your statist compadres would be after them like dirty shirts - examining their assets where they lived what schools the kids attended whether or not the parents had large inheritances squirreled away in Swiss banks accounts. Don't give me that crap about how evil reich wingers operate. Evil dem partisans operate the same way. No difference - both groups have closed minds and feel that their camp represents perfection, truth, and beauty, and light. In the case of the Frost Family, evil reich wingers did not scam SCHIP funds in Maryland. Evil reich wingers did not chose to leave their dependents unprotected from catastrophic accidents/health events. Evil reich wingers did not choose to allow a minor to be used as a political pawn. Evil reich wingers did not rush into center stage and expose family memebers to public scrutiny and ridicule. The Frosts are arrogant smug risk takers and unfortunately they don't learn from previous negative risk taking experiences. I hold no admiration or affection for Michele Malkin or for freakers or for George Bush. But in this particular case, I am not going to let myself be blind to the obvious irregularities in the way the Frosts have conducted themselves. The Frosts have acted irresponsibly in a variety of ways and they have brought on all this bad press and public scrutiny by their own selfish and not too bright choices. You are way out of line in what you've said to me the past few days and what you have just done now. You of all people labelling me as "dispicable" is nothing short of irony.
They would have failed a means test that doesn't exist? Interesting. You might also check what I have actually said to and about you. You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I often had the impression with BAC's long tirades that they were ready-made by some other person(s) and/or group for standard topics.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
You might also check what I have actually said to and about you. You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade. 1. You are not as clever as you think you are. Neil's software is a wonderful program - it saves everything we type and post. Before you edit your previous #12 response to my question, let me capture the sequence and save it for posterity: scrapper: "c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? Mekons4:C. Yes, they would have passed. In fact, they did. 2. I don't do tirade. That's your game not mine. I do self-defense as the occasion demands against net bullies. October 11: "You're as despicable as Malkin is." October 08: "Is your nutty, extreme example of $83,00 middle class or upper class?" "You're just a vicious hate-mongering right-winger who, typically, has no idea where your own self-interest lies." "Let me guess. You're 20 and your mom lets you live at home free" "How many of people eligible make $83,000? Nearly NONE, you idiot." "You are a profoundly dishonest or stupid person. Choose one from the above. Or both. Which I think might be the case." "You're an idiot." "Obviously, you didn't go to an actual school." "Am I going too fast for you?" "And people like Ayn Rand, who you sound like, were anarchists."
The maximum contribution to a HSA per year for a family is $5,650. Additionally, health insurance, especially high deductable health insurance, doesn't cover pre-existing conditions, at least not for the first year.
Olbermann And Maddow On The Right’s Jihad On 12 Year Old Boy Maddow: “Twelve year old Graeme Frost, meet Cindy Sheehan, meet 9/11 widows, meet Staff Sgt. Brian McGough, meet Michael J. Fox, meet the kids who were targeted by Mark Foley, meet Jack Murtha. I mean, Graeme Frost as a twelve year old now joins an esteemed list of Americans who have been personally attacked, personally slimed, called liars and cowards and frauds, and threatened for daring to publicly espouse a view that the right disagrees with. I mean, just when you think you’ve found the person who they can’t possibly slime, I don’t know, say a twelve year old kid just out of a coma, turns out yeah, the bar does actually go that low, it’s just astonishing.” Filed Under: Air America, Countdown/Keith Olbermann, Hackery, MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, Right Wing Pundits, Right Wing Radio, Right
There was no pre-existing condition for the Frost Family in 2003 before the auto accident that I've read of. And having $5,000 in an HSA would have taken care of health maintenance issues like physicals vaccinations ear infections that a high deductible plan would not cover. But having a high deductible catastrophic health insurance plan in place would have provided the necessary health care that came about due to the auto accident. And once enrolled in such a plan the insurer can't kick you out just because you cost them money. The pre-existing brain damage as a result of the auto accident would be a moot point. Furthermore, a high deductible insurance plan would have been significantly less costly in monthly premiums than what Mrs. Frost quoted to the media - I think she threw out a figure of $1200 per month of plans she looked into. I would suggest that she made superficial enquiries at best. Anyone who has car insurance, home insurance, health insurance knows that the first obvious cost saving measure you can do as a consumer is to have a high deductible in place. It isn't rocket science. What's your point exactly?
Additionally from Crooks and Liars: Malkin Debases Herself With Further Attacks On A 12 Year Old. C&L Exclusive Quote! (Remember this ad for Bush in ‘04?) Do you actually think I would ever have considered attacking her and her family because of their support of Bush? I mean, it boggles the mind, doesn’t it? The utter depravity of it all. The sickness that dwells inside the Malkinites must run deeper than I thought. That’s the only way they can continue to dwell in such slime. I have an exclusive quote from an anonymous source close to the story: “What these right wing bloggers and some of their Republican friends in Washington have done to this family is simply unconscionable. Instead of attacking the issue, they decided to attack a 12-year old boy. This entire smear campaign by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin and their allies has been a perverse distraction from the issue at hand - the plight of millions of uninsured children in this country. It also needs to be remembered that the Frosts were viciously attacked for simply speaking their minds and voicing their support for the SCHIP program that was so instrumental in saving the lives of their children. From the Frosts’ perspective, what could be more American? Hmmm…just debating the issue at hand. Now there’s an idea. You may remember that Howard Kurtz wrote a glowing profile of the right wing’s very own Michelle Malkin a while back. It was rather odd, but not surprising. Soon after he attacked the Huffington Post for having some nasty comments about Dick Cheney on their site, which is a favorite trick of the mmm-essss-mmm. It was dirty pool because he understands the nature of blogging. Since you write about the bloggers quite often, Howie, will you denounce the right wing/Malkin attempts to smear a family and a 12 year old boy? (Here is a public email: http://projects.washingtonpost One critic, in an e-mail message to Graeme’s mother, Bonnie, warned: “Lie down with dogs, and expect to get fleas.” As it turns out, the Frosts say, Graeme attends the private school on scholarship. The business that the critics said Mr. Frost owned was dissolved in 1999. The family’s home, in the modest Butchers Hill neighborhood of Baltimore, was bought for $55,000 in 1990 and is now worth about $260,000, according to public records. And, for the record, the Frosts say, their kitchen counters are concrete. Republicans on Capitol Hill, who were gearing up to use Graeme as evidence that Democrats have over-expanded the health program to include families wealthy enough to afford private insurance, have backed off. An aide to Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, expressed relief that his office had not issued a press release criticizing the Frosts. As for accusations that bloggers were unfairly attacking a 12-year-old, Ms. Malkin wrote on her blog, “If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.” All the proof you need is Rep. Mitch McConnell backing off of the Frost family. Would he so willingly fade away? Actually the real message is that if anyone stands up against the Republican agenda, the right wing bloggers will smear and stalk you with the desired effect of “STFU or we’ll ruin you.” Intimidation, plain and simple. How many times have we seen this? But to be so low as to go after a child. Joe Gandleman–who isn’t a liberal–has a great take on it: But no, it’s easier to go after a 12 year-old. After all, these days, anyone who is in the way of an agenda has to be discredited so that no one listens to them anymore. Yet, once upon a time, American society would pull out all stops not to go after a kid. The bar has been lowered yet again. This time it has been lowered so far, it has struck oil amid the sleaze…read on T
They wanted their 15 minutes...and they got it. Just not they way they wanted.
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price." Vir Cotto, Babylon 5
Politicians and their minions are some of the worst gutter-trash on the planet. Thieves, liars, pedophiles and thugs. And these parents exposed their kids to that environment?! I never took my kid to a bar or a keg party. Why...? Because I have a fucking brain and didn't want my kid exposed that kind of bullshit, that's why!
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price." Vir Cotto, Babylon 5
b. Scholarships are awarded for a variety of reasons. It sounds like the Frosts were grateful and willing to share how the SCHIP program helped them, but they are no longer giving interviews because of the GOP hate machine. a. I'm not sure what you are talking about. What "pre-existing" condition did any of the Frost Family members have prior to their auto accident that prevented Mr. and Mrs. Frost from buying a health insurance policy for the family? Once you have a health insurance policy in place, they can't refuse to cover medical issues that come as a result of a car accident. That's why responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise. Your friend's austic child is not relevant to the discussion about why I believe that the Frosts were irresponsible in the way they did not prepare their family in 2003 against an out-of-the-blue health emergency, which unfortunately subsequently happened. Monthly payments for second mortgages that amount to $20,000 are peanuts - I've been there so I know of what I speak - in 2003, the Frosts would have been given an excellent rate because of the equity in their highly appreciated residence as well as the equity they had in their commercial property. b. Scholarships in private schools are generally given to minority children living in dire straights who deserve a leg up - basically scholarships represent a way for a private school to "give back" to their community to help disadvantaged children in their midst whose financial circumstances are very different from their full pay student parent body. The Frosts should have better scruples than to apply for this type of scholarship because it deprived 2 children who were truly needy. As for why the Frosts will no longer give interviews - they thrust themselves into the kitchen but they did not like the fires. Maybe they should have thought about the risks of grabbing a microphone and taking center stage before they did what they did. Hindset is 20/20 vision. With regards to the "GOP hate machine" - oh yes, righhhht, for sure, most definitely - the "problem" is the GOP not the Dems who used a child to promote their agenda and it's not the Frosts who scammed a system meant for impoverished children because they consciously took risks with their children's future and lost when Fate stepped in. Lalalalalala...
The idea that when someone doesn't have health insurance before a catastrophic illness that they are then doomed for the rest of their lives, unable to ever acquire any, is not a very productive notion for society as a whole. It certainly is not compassionate. Many Americans had health insurance while employed, but after losing their jobs, and COBRA runs out, they are without any, until they find another employer who has good health insurance benefits. The point of my friend's experience with an autistic child was to show you that even with current health insurance, companies refuse claims regularly. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker". As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient.
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And who can afford COBRA?
No one unemployed, that's for sure. The deceptiveness going on by a certain poster got on my last nerve. He's just spewing the Bush/Rush line, amplifying the hate machine's usual spew. We have a society for one reason: to make life better for our citizens. We are the only country left in the industrialized world that doesn't have national health care. We may have the BEST health care, but if 40 percent of your citizens can't afford it, what the hell is the value of that? Scrapper's constant drumbeat to demonize the victim strikes me as disingenuous. He's spinning like crazy. He seems to know what the family paid for its counter tops. My brother, just as an example, gets free Vermont marble from a quarry. They end up with chunks they can't sell wholesale, they're too small, so they are happy to have him tote them away in his F-250. He uses these scraps to put together patios, walkways, counter tops, etc. To claim they cost $20,000 is just ignorant and SPINNING. He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
Well it's your kind of thinking that evidently the Frost Family shared. And for them - because they had other "priorities" - they took risks with their kids furture and Fate intervened and delivered a catastrophic blow. Sorry but I don't feel my taxpayer dollars through SCHIP -should cover your risk taking decisions or those of the Frost Family. My tax dollars in SCHIP were intended to help the truly impoverished children, not middle class families who are intent on feathering up a desirable college application for their child. I have always paid my own freight and planned for health and financial emergencies. I have little sympathy for those who can afford to plan accordingly but don't because of what they judge to be "other priorities" at the time but turn around and expect me a hard working self-sufficient worker bee - to bail out their grass hopper selves on the rainy day that comes. Everyone thinks their "other priorities" take precedence over providing a health and financial cushion for unexpected eventualities - I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important. I'm a very traditional conservative. I have never been a care free grasshopper except for my college years. I can't relate to adults who think they are so special that others should look after them and their children when they can well afford and should assume that responsibility. It's a concept that is very foreign to me. But that's just me I guess - a good little worker bee through and through.
well, I certainly did not say I expect to be bailed out by you or anyone else in the event of a "rainy day" - I do not expect that. I understand that I could be destroyed in such an event. lately I'm understanding that, being middle class, I could be destroyed regardless, so it's actually becoming less of a worry, or at least less of something I would pour my limited resources into. I'm not a wealthy person - I do have to pick and choose where my income goes. I have to prioritize. and I do look back and think of what I could have done with my income in years where I spent it on risks like insurance that I didn't end up needing. it's a gamble. I'm happy for you that it's so clear and that you feel it's money well spent. I've never reached that level of self assurance, probably because I've never reached that level of income that I can't help but worry about and regret money spent 'just in case"
b. Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing. c. As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships d. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? e. Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient. a. sorry I don't take plot lines from Hollywood movies as my guiding light on political matters. Rain Maker was an entertaining movie but it was based on a fictionalized novel written by a lawyer. b. if everyone is losing jobs stateside due to off-shoring, who exactly is going to pay for these mega grand from sea to sea all inclusive health care program? c. And you have experience with private schools to know this for fact? I have had personal experience with private schools and I think I'm in a better position to understand the goal and mission of private schools' offering scholarships. d. I am not defending the GOP "hate machine" just as I am not defending risk taking scammers like the Frosts. I have no vested personal interest in either group. You appear to have a personal need to try to redeem and defend the Frosts' indefensible behavior and to focus your unabated wrath on those eeevil reich wingers who obviously caused the Frosts to forgo proper insurance they could afford, to tap into SCHIP $ that was intended for impovershed children and to thrust temselves into the public eye and grab their 15 minutes of show boating fame. Oh yes, I forgot one more thing that the evil reich wingers caused and that was using a child as a pawn for a political agenda that blew up in their faces - ah yes, those evil reich wingers - man oh man - they are also responsible for famines in Zimbabwe and unseasonable cold weather in Spain.. and...the list goes on...what would we do without the evil reich wingers? Gosh we might have to "own" our bad choices. e. And you know this because you have lived in Europe and used the medical care there recently? Or because you are a medical researcher who has studied the subject like Dr. David Gratzer, M.D. has? Get real - you don't have the experience or the medical background to speak with any level of certainty or authority about health care outside your immediate personal world.
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
What a laugh! Err...thanks for your "concern" but I don't think I'm in need of mental health intervention. You really are embaressing yourself with your not so smooth insults. My goodness - what have I done to earn this wrath? By pointing out irregularities in the "official" Frost Family tale of woe and by not buying into the schtick about how universal health care is needed so pre-natal checks can be provided to everyone to avoid "basket cases" being born (your words not mine) and that we'll all feel better for it even though we'll end up in a queue indefinitely for accessing health care services, these small sacrifices must happen for The Greater Good. hahahaha...is that right? you and aristeides and mekons4 - the 3 Amigos for creating a better Utopian world - are in a tzzy because I questioned your facts and pronouncements? Too bad. If you reach unsubstantiated conclusions and expect everyone is going to be "go along folks" you are dreaming. There are going to be alot of middle class middle aged taxpayers who are going to be pissed and who will question your statist vision for Universal Health Care and these people will not go silently into the queues.
You were the one who began musing about "other priorities" rather than "wasting money on health care premiums" like paying for extra curricular activities for your daughter to feather her college application. Clearly if you can afford college for your daughter and you can afford paying for after school activities like perhaps piano and gymnastic lessons, you are middle class and you are no poorer than I am. Health care insurance like auto insurance like home owners insurance has always been a top priority for me. I never question the need for insurance - I will put off spending on other things that might be more fun or personally satisfying or more of a long term investment of one kind or another, but I have never ever gone without being insured up the wazoo. Maybe it's different for you but then you must live with the consequences of contemplating that insurance is a waste of money.
{...} Furthermore, a high deductible insurance plan would have been significantly less costly in monthly premiums than what Mrs. Frost quoted to the media - I think she threw out a figure of $1200 per month of plans she looked into. {...} What's your point exactly? The bill authorizing HSA's was first ENACTED in 2003, thus most people wouldn't had been ready to sign up for one until 2004. The accident occured in 2004, thus it would have occured right about the time the Frosts had their first real opportunity to open an HSA. Even so, there would not have been any money in their HSA, and the high deductable insurance that is required usually requires the entire HSA contribution for that year as a deductable. For lower deductable HSA qualified insurance policies, the premium could well be $1200 or so a month. In other words, MAYBE they could have done what you suggest, but they would have struggled to come up with the money at minimum, and there is a distinct possibility that the accident occured BEFORE their first window of opportunity to purchase high deductable insurance and open a HSA. Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
Yes indeed. Or they could have dropped their injured children off at the govt, making them wards of the court, and gone on with their lives as usual. Or maybe they should have watched them suffer and die.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
He posts the same kind of lengthy posts with more information than you would think a solitary individual could come up with in the short time between his posts that BAC did. In BAC's case, I strongly suspected some organization was providing him with his posts.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
wow, i don't understand how you all can think that scrapper is BAC or that she's a GOP operative??
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
Comments (41 - 176) not displayed.
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestLITBMueller Says:
#2. To: All (#0)
#3. To: robin (#2)
#4. To: aristeides (#0)
On Monday morning, Don Stewart sent an email with the following text...
#5. To: aristeides (#3)
#6. To: Fred Mertz (#4)
When did icwhatudo's posting originate?
#7. To: All (#4)
(Edited)
The "Not So Poor" 12 Year Old Who Rebutted Bush on SCHIP Veto
Multiple, Baltimore Sun ^ | 10-07-07 | self
#8. To: Fred Mertz (#7)
zmulls Says:
#9. To: robin (#2)
#10. To: scrapper2 (#9)
#11. To: scrapper2 (#9)
second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account
#12. To: scrapper2 (#9)
a. Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years?
#13. To: Mekons4, robin, aristeides, Fred Mertz (#12)
It's suddenly a crime to tell your story and support a program that helped you so that it can help others? Because you're in a rather lousy situation, you should have no voice in how our country is run? You're as despicable as Malkin is.
#14. To: scrapper2 (#13)
b. The state of Maryland does not have a means test for getting SCHIP funds. So no the Frosts did not pass a means test and yes they would have failed a means test with the assets they own. You are ill-informed or self-deluded - I'm not sure which - so don't try to pass along untruths to others just because you want to believe in the Frosts.
#15. To: Mekons4 (#14)
You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade.
#16. To: Mekons4 (#14)
They would have failed a means test that doesn't exist? Interesting.
#17. To: scrapper2 (#9)
Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#18. To: aristeides, ALL (#0)
As Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh and the right wing hate machine’s jihad against SCHIP and 12 year old Graeme Frost blows up in their faces, Countdown host Keith Olbermann and Air America Radio’s Rachel Maddow lay out what is without a doubt, the best framing of the latest and reprehensible episode for the Republican Party. Olbermann and Maddow give the GOP and their hordes a brilliant beating, Rachel sums it up perfectly:
#19. To: FormerLurker (#17)
The maximum contribution to a HSA per year for a family is $5,650. Additionally, health insurance, especially high deductable health insurance, doesn't cover pre-existing conditions, at least not for the first year.
#20. To: All (#18)
#21. To: Tauzero (#10)
And that's a dangerous thing to do. For anybody.
#22. To: Zipporah (#20)
As for accusations that bloggers were unfairly attacking a 12-year-old, Ms. Malkin wrote on her blog, “If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.”
#23. To: robin (#11)
a. Second mortgages come with a monthly payment, and you are assuming they could find private insurance. With such serious preexisting conditions it is very doubtful the Frosts would find a private health care provider for any price. And if they did, the insurance company probably wouldn't pay for all the necessary therapy. This happened to a middle-class family I know with one autistic child.
#24. To: scrapper2 (#23)
Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing.
#25. To: robin (#24)
COBRA
#26. To: Zipporah (#25)
And who can afford COBRA?
#27. To: scrapper2 (#23)
responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise.
#28. To: kiki (#27)
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
#29. To: scrapper2 (#28)
#30. To: robin (#24)
a. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker".
#31. To: scrapper2 (#30)
#32. To: All (#29)
I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important.
#33. To: robin (#31)
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
#34. To: kiki (#32)
gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
#35. To: scrapper2 (#19)
There was no pre-existing condition for the Frost Family in 2003 before the auto accident that I've read of.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#36. To: FormerLurker (#35)
Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
#37. To: Mekons4, scrapper2 (#26)
He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
#38. To: aristeides, Mekons4, scrapper2 (#37)
#39. To: aristeides (#3)
#40. To: Mekons4, Scrapper2 (#26)
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