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Title: The Genesis of the Smears (JOHN COLE ASKS ABOUT FREEPER ICUWHATUDO)
Source:
John Cole's Balloon Juice
URL Source: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8849
Published: Oct 11, 2007
Author: John Cole
Post Date: 2007-10-11 14:47:37 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 2377
Comments: 176
The Genesis of the Smears By: John Cole October 11, 2007 at 12:53 pm Appears to have been an aide to Mitch McConnell, according to the Communists at ThinkProgress: On Monday morning, Don Stewart sent an email with the following text to reporters: Seen the latest blogswarm? Apparently, there’s more to the story on the kid (Graeme Frost) that did the Dems’ radio response on SCHIP. Bloggers have done a little digging and turned up that the Dad owns his own business (and the building it’s in), seems to have some commercial rental income and Graeme and a sister go to a private school that, according to its website, costs about $20k a year ‹for each kid‹ despite the news profiles reporting a family income of only $45k for the Frosts. Could the Dems really have done that bad of a job vetting this family? In the email, Stewart attacks Democrats for allegedly doing a bad job “vetting this family.” That effort to blame Democrats for the smear campaign seems to have swayed some reporters, as CNN this morning claimed that the real story is that “the Democrats didn’t do as much of a vetting as they could have done.” What is so surprising about all of this is not that all of the stuff in the leaked email has turned out to be completely false- that is just amusing. What is surprising is THE SPEED with which the “citizen journalists” ran with this, and echoed everything the leaked email did- just like good little soldiers. It was viral in no time. I would not be surprised if Malkin, Limbaugh, and some folks at the NRO were not in the coterie of ‘reporters’ this was emailed to, nor would I be surprised if they got it from a friend of a friend (despite pretending to be different from the beltway crowd, all of the above are insiders to the Washington game, despite their protests otherwise). I’d like to know a little more about the freeper who ran with this in the first place, giving Michelle and others their “in” to run with the story without having to be the ones to take the blame for doing it. Who is icuwhatudo? What is her/his real identity? How is this person connected to the McConnell aide or the reporters who received this list. Or was it just a coincidence? If I prided myself in being a citizen journalist, those are the questions I would be asking. And does anyone have any pictures of his living room?
ThinkProgress has obtained an email that congressional sources tell us was sent to reporters by Sen. McConnell’s communications director Don Stewart.
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#22. To: Zipporah (#20)
Politicians and their minions are some of the worst gutter-trash on the planet. Thieves, liars, pedophiles and thugs. And these parents exposed their kids to that environment?! I never took my kid to a bar or a keg party. Why...? Because I have a fucking brain and didn't want my kid exposed that kind of bullshit, that's why!
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price." Vir Cotto, Babylon 5
b. Scholarships are awarded for a variety of reasons. It sounds like the Frosts were grateful and willing to share how the SCHIP program helped them, but they are no longer giving interviews because of the GOP hate machine. a. I'm not sure what you are talking about. What "pre-existing" condition did any of the Frost Family members have prior to their auto accident that prevented Mr. and Mrs. Frost from buying a health insurance policy for the family? Once you have a health insurance policy in place, they can't refuse to cover medical issues that come as a result of a car accident. That's why responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise. Your friend's austic child is not relevant to the discussion about why I believe that the Frosts were irresponsible in the way they did not prepare their family in 2003 against an out-of-the-blue health emergency, which unfortunately subsequently happened. Monthly payments for second mortgages that amount to $20,000 are peanuts - I've been there so I know of what I speak - in 2003, the Frosts would have been given an excellent rate because of the equity in their highly appreciated residence as well as the equity they had in their commercial property. b. Scholarships in private schools are generally given to minority children living in dire straights who deserve a leg up - basically scholarships represent a way for a private school to "give back" to their community to help disadvantaged children in their midst whose financial circumstances are very different from their full pay student parent body. The Frosts should have better scruples than to apply for this type of scholarship because it deprived 2 children who were truly needy. As for why the Frosts will no longer give interviews - they thrust themselves into the kitchen but they did not like the fires. Maybe they should have thought about the risks of grabbing a microphone and taking center stage before they did what they did. Hindset is 20/20 vision. With regards to the "GOP hate machine" - oh yes, righhhht, for sure, most definitely - the "problem" is the GOP not the Dems who used a child to promote their agenda and it's not the Frosts who scammed a system meant for impoverished children because they consciously took risks with their children's future and lost when Fate stepped in. Lalalalalala...
The idea that when someone doesn't have health insurance before a catastrophic illness that they are then doomed for the rest of their lives, unable to ever acquire any, is not a very productive notion for society as a whole. It certainly is not compassionate. Many Americans had health insurance while employed, but after losing their jobs, and COBRA runs out, they are without any, until they find another employer who has good health insurance benefits. The point of my friend's experience with an autistic child was to show you that even with current health insurance, companies refuse claims regularly. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker". As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
And who can afford COBRA?
No one unemployed, that's for sure. The deceptiveness going on by a certain poster got on my last nerve. He's just spewing the Bush/Rush line, amplifying the hate machine's usual spew. We have a society for one reason: to make life better for our citizens. We are the only country left in the industrialized world that doesn't have national health care. We may have the BEST health care, but if 40 percent of your citizens can't afford it, what the hell is the value of that? Scrapper's constant drumbeat to demonize the victim strikes me as disingenuous. He's spinning like crazy. He seems to know what the family paid for its counter tops. My brother, just as an example, gets free Vermont marble from a quarry. They end up with chunks they can't sell wholesale, they're too small, so they are happy to have him tote them away in his F-250. He uses these scraps to put together patios, walkways, counter tops, etc. To claim they cost $20,000 is just ignorant and SPINNING. He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
Well it's your kind of thinking that evidently the Frost Family shared. And for them - because they had other "priorities" - they took risks with their kids furture and Fate intervened and delivered a catastrophic blow. Sorry but I don't feel my taxpayer dollars through SCHIP -should cover your risk taking decisions or those of the Frost Family. My tax dollars in SCHIP were intended to help the truly impoverished children, not middle class families who are intent on feathering up a desirable college application for their child. I have always paid my own freight and planned for health and financial emergencies. I have little sympathy for those who can afford to plan accordingly but don't because of what they judge to be "other priorities" at the time but turn around and expect me a hard working self-sufficient worker bee - to bail out their grass hopper selves on the rainy day that comes. Everyone thinks their "other priorities" take precedence over providing a health and financial cushion for unexpected eventualities - I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important. I'm a very traditional conservative. I have never been a care free grasshopper except for my college years. I can't relate to adults who think they are so special that others should look after them and their children when they can well afford and should assume that responsibility. It's a concept that is very foreign to me. But that's just me I guess - a good little worker bee through and through.
well, I certainly did not say I expect to be bailed out by you or anyone else in the event of a "rainy day" - I do not expect that. I understand that I could be destroyed in such an event. lately I'm understanding that, being middle class, I could be destroyed regardless, so it's actually becoming less of a worry, or at least less of something I would pour my limited resources into. I'm not a wealthy person - I do have to pick and choose where my income goes. I have to prioritize. and I do look back and think of what I could have done with my income in years where I spent it on risks like insurance that I didn't end up needing. it's a gamble. I'm happy for you that it's so clear and that you feel it's money well spent. I've never reached that level of self assurance, probably because I've never reached that level of income that I can't help but worry about and regret money spent 'just in case"
b. Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing. c. As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships d. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? e. Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient. a. sorry I don't take plot lines from Hollywood movies as my guiding light on political matters. Rain Maker was an entertaining movie but it was based on a fictionalized novel written by a lawyer. b. if everyone is losing jobs stateside due to off-shoring, who exactly is going to pay for these mega grand from sea to sea all inclusive health care program? c. And you have experience with private schools to know this for fact? I have had personal experience with private schools and I think I'm in a better position to understand the goal and mission of private schools' offering scholarships. d. I am not defending the GOP "hate machine" just as I am not defending risk taking scammers like the Frosts. I have no vested personal interest in either group. You appear to have a personal need to try to redeem and defend the Frosts' indefensible behavior and to focus your unabated wrath on those eeevil reich wingers who obviously caused the Frosts to forgo proper insurance they could afford, to tap into SCHIP $ that was intended for impovershed children and to thrust temselves into the public eye and grab their 15 minutes of show boating fame. Oh yes, I forgot one more thing that the evil reich wingers caused and that was using a child as a pawn for a political agenda that blew up in their faces - ah yes, those evil reich wingers - man oh man - they are also responsible for famines in Zimbabwe and unseasonable cold weather in Spain.. and...the list goes on...what would we do without the evil reich wingers? Gosh we might have to "own" our bad choices. e. And you know this because you have lived in Europe and used the medical care there recently? Or because you are a medical researcher who has studied the subject like Dr. David Gratzer, M.D. has? Get real - you don't have the experience or the medical background to speak with any level of certainty or authority about health care outside your immediate personal world.
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
What a laugh! Err...thanks for your "concern" but I don't think I'm in need of mental health intervention. You really are embaressing yourself with your not so smooth insults. My goodness - what have I done to earn this wrath? By pointing out irregularities in the "official" Frost Family tale of woe and by not buying into the schtick about how universal health care is needed so pre-natal checks can be provided to everyone to avoid "basket cases" being born (your words not mine) and that we'll all feel better for it even though we'll end up in a queue indefinitely for accessing health care services, these small sacrifices must happen for The Greater Good. hahahaha...is that right? you and aristeides and mekons4 - the 3 Amigos for creating a better Utopian world - are in a tzzy because I questioned your facts and pronouncements? Too bad. If you reach unsubstantiated conclusions and expect everyone is going to be "go along folks" you are dreaming. There are going to be alot of middle class middle aged taxpayers who are going to be pissed and who will question your statist vision for Universal Health Care and these people will not go silently into the queues.
You were the one who began musing about "other priorities" rather than "wasting money on health care premiums" like paying for extra curricular activities for your daughter to feather her college application. Clearly if you can afford college for your daughter and you can afford paying for after school activities like perhaps piano and gymnastic lessons, you are middle class and you are no poorer than I am. Health care insurance like auto insurance like home owners insurance has always been a top priority for me. I never question the need for insurance - I will put off spending on other things that might be more fun or personally satisfying or more of a long term investment of one kind or another, but I have never ever gone without being insured up the wazoo. Maybe it's different for you but then you must live with the consequences of contemplating that insurance is a waste of money.
{...} Furthermore, a high deductible insurance plan would have been significantly less costly in monthly premiums than what Mrs. Frost quoted to the media - I think she threw out a figure of $1200 per month of plans she looked into. {...} What's your point exactly? The bill authorizing HSA's was first ENACTED in 2003, thus most people wouldn't had been ready to sign up for one until 2004. The accident occured in 2004, thus it would have occured right about the time the Frosts had their first real opportunity to open an HSA. Even so, there would not have been any money in their HSA, and the high deductable insurance that is required usually requires the entire HSA contribution for that year as a deductable. For lower deductable HSA qualified insurance policies, the premium could well be $1200 or so a month. In other words, MAYBE they could have done what you suggest, but they would have struggled to come up with the money at minimum, and there is a distinct possibility that the accident occured BEFORE their first window of opportunity to purchase high deductable insurance and open a HSA. Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
Yes indeed. Or they could have dropped their injured children off at the govt, making them wards of the court, and gone on with their lives as usual. Or maybe they should have watched them suffer and die.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
He posts the same kind of lengthy posts with more information than you would think a solitary individual could come up with in the short time between his posts that BAC did. In BAC's case, I strongly suspected some organization was providing him with his posts.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
wow, i don't understand how you all can think that scrapper is BAC or that she's a GOP operative??
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
I can understand disagreeing on an issue like health care. I can't understand joining in the attack on the Frosts.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
and the only GOP'er i've seen her be an advocate for is Ron Paul! ;)
b. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government c. than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year. Uh huh, uh huh... a. Here's the month and year of the accident the Frosts had(per Aristeides article in msg #29) "Bonnie Frost was driving children Zeke, Graeme and Gemma in Baltimore County in December 2004 when the family SUV hit a patch of black ice and slammed into a tree. Graeme sustained a brain stem injury; Gemma suffered a cranial fracture" Because the accident occurred in December, 2004 there were 11 months for Mr. and Mrs. Frost to set up a modest Health Savings Account ( up to $5000) to cover incidental doctor's office visits and to secure a high deductible catastrophic medical insurance plan. Count them 11 months before the accident occurred. There is no excuse for their negligence/risk taking. They owned 2 properties. I don't care whether they had concrete or granite counters or whether they were self installed or installed by another contractor - that's minutiae - the point is that the Frosts owned a nice looking residential home that had appreciated in value considerably and in light of their other property ownership, they would have qualified for a real sweet interest rate if they needed a $5000 line of credit in 2004. They probably had 2 vehicles one of which was an SUV, which is not an exactly cheap vehicle to buy or own. So give me a friggin' break about grabbing at straws trying find excuses for them for not getting a proper health insurance policy for their dependent children. The Frosts had the time and the assets to do the right thing by their family members and they chose not to. End of story. b. as for money well spent on American families' health care needs - well how "Noblesse Olige" of you FormerLurker. You may get your wish in the Millions big fellah - because there's lots more middle class families waiting in the wings who will want to take you up on your taxpayer generosity if Nancy and Harry have their way with the expansion of SCHIP - there's lotsa middle class well heeled votes to buy out there in a run up to an election year, doncha know? Fyi, did you know that the fastest growing segment of uninsured in America are the MIDDLE CLASS ( they must have "other priorities" like eating out and Christmas shopping...) "The coverage gap is widening fastest at upper incomes. Almost the entire increase in people without health insurance from 2005 to 2006 took place in families with incomes above $50,000 (median family income is $48,200). The number of uninsured people in families whose incomes were below $25,000 actually declined by about 4%. Families with incomes above $50,000 a year account for an improbable 93% of the 2.1 million increase in the uninsured, and now represent 38% of the total uninsured in the United States. Two-thirds of the 2005-2006 increase was actually in families with incomes above $75,000! How far up into the middle class these incomes put someone obviously depends on where they live. In Manhattan, $75,000 a year is not a lot of money (consider that just parking your car, if you are foolish enough to own one, can cost $500 a month). In Topeka, Kansas, however, it’s upper middle class. The average US household presently spends about 6% of its disposable household income on healthcare; the above average income household spends much less. In 2005, Americans spent about $250 billion out of pocket on health services and had another $190 billion taken out of their paychecks for health insurance premiums. In 2005, we spent a comparable amount, about $440 billion, on Christmas presents and about $470 billion on restaurants and fast food. How important is health coverage for middle and upper middle class households in their mix of spending priorities?... c. As for your remark about wasting money on useless foreign wars - I agree with your 100%. But unfortunately both the GOP and Dem politicians love their wars. Nancy and Harry have not shut down the Iraq War as they had promised. In fact the Dems are itching to attack Iran probably using a draft to do it in 2009 - heck why not? fighting wars on the cheap through conscription is second nature to Dem Presidents - WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam As for Mexican politicians grabbing our money, you forgot the 20 Million Mexican illegals themselves using our taxpayer provided perks - robin says she believes that illegals should get universal health care access too because it's good for our society if everyone here is healthy and having pre-natal checks and stuff - even if they are not legal residents/citizens and not paying their income tax freight charges. You see where this insane "Noblesse Olige" bleeding heart mindset leads us - universal health care for all, legal or illegal - we all should get government dispensed health care - aristeides, robin, and Mekons4 are promoting VA Health Care for you and me and ghost and christine and Pedro and Pedro's extended family
Ive not been following this thread but did see this.. I know many people who dont have health insurance..middle class and it's not cause they're out spending money on nonsense.. their employers dont offer it.. cause they're 'contractors'.. a way for employers to avoid the expense... and the cost of purchasing health insurance would cause them to not be able to pay for necessities such as rent, car payment, gasoline, food.. it would cut very deep into their pockets.. unfortunately they have to gamble that they wont get ill.. these are people in their late 20s and 30s. We can thank outsourcing for this..
Did you pay your dues " Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Ghost and christine, thanks for votes of confidence to assure everyone that I'm not a mole. Sheeesh! Is that the latest insult that the 3 Amigos for a Utopian Leninesque World have come up with today? - my goodness, what next? - wild imaginations, they are not short of, I have to give praise where praise is due. But ghost I'm not having any second thoughts about my position on the Frost parents. IMO, they were negligent in not providing a basic high deductible insurance policy to protect their family against catastrophic events and they had the assets ( 2 properties) and the means - they could have gotten a real sweet deal for a line of credit of $5000 to start up in HSA in January, 2004 so as to get a cheaper rate on the high deductible insurance premium - and HSA's are tax deductible, a win/win. But they chose to throw caution to the wind - they rolled the dice and they lost and lost terribly. They got lucky because Maryland's laws were lax and a means test was not required to access SCHIP funds. If they resided in other states that require means testing [ I think means testing should be a requirement in all states] the Frosts would have failed. There's no doubt about it - they had too many assets. But what is unforgiveable in my mind is that the Frost parents let their child be used as a pawn by the Dem Party to promote a political agenda. The Frosts knowingly let their son be USED by political hacks exposing him to public scrutiny. Would you do that to your kid? With regards to the reich wingers going after the Frosts - I don't defend their tactics - I never have - but how does Michele Malkin's distasteful conduct excuse the Frosts' negligence and irresponsible behavior and bad decisions? It doesn't and you know it and aristeides and robin and Mekons4 know it too - that's why those 3 are trying so hard to kick up dust on the issue and blame the evil reich wingers for this very sad situation. The reich winger party partisans are doing exactly what the left winger partisans would do if the situation were reversed, which is take advantage of opportunity when it presents itself and to go for the jugular. The Frosts parents chose to come out of the shadows - the reich wingers did not pull them out in front of the microphones - as soon as the Frosts consented to go public,they became fair game. Consider that if there had been no glaring irregularities in the Frost Family story, the Dems would have been successful in using a little boy ( how is that noble?) to promote their expanded SCHIP platform agenda - ie. to buy votes of middle class families earning up to $83,000 in the run up to the 2008 election. Come on - you think the Dem Party is wanting to expand SCHIP out of the goodness of their hearts or because they love the children more the the GOP? I don't think so. As Cyni pointed out elsewhere - both parties use and abuse sheeple individuals to get elected, to get more power and then the sheeple are discarded and forgotten like yesterday's newspaper. You're a Ron Paul supporter, yes? Ron Paul voted "no" to expand the SCHIP program. You think Ron Paul who is an obgyn hates kids and that's why he voted "no"? No it's more likely that he knows how the intent of the SCHIP 1997 legislation has been totally lost/ misused - SCHIP was set up by bipartisan votes to specifically help impoverished children of indigent families. States like Maryland don't even do a means test before they shell out $ - Baltimore has countless #'s of impoverished children but the Maryland officials gave $ designated for impoverished children in the state to the Frosts who own 2 properties and an SUV - does that seem right? - some states have even given SCHIP money holus bolus to adults - does that seem right? I read recently that one of the big cheerleaders for expanded SCHIP is the Governor of New Jersey - dumteedum -my taxpayer antennae go up whenever I hear that a NJ politician is a booster for an entitlement program.
The spinning continues. When you're on the side of Rushbo, Malkin, Coulter et al, you might want to investigate the facts. What "business" did they own? What was it worth when it was dissolved? You act like your high-deductible insurance is free. It's not. It's very expensive, and when you are supporting a family of six on $45,000 a year...well, let's see YOU do it. Your insistent attack on the Frosts is just sickening. Keep spamming and spinning, but the duty of any society is to improve the lives of its citizens. If you want to, in the words of Jeanne Kirkpatrick, make America safe for rich people with lawyers, by all means go ahead. Just stop being disingenuous about it.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Did they find money to spend on Christmas shopping and eating out? I ask that because in a previous msg. I linked to a Health blog that went through statistical data and demonstarted that the greatest growing numbers of the uninsured were middle class who had the means to afford health insurance. But though these middle class individuals went without health care, Christmas expenditures and restaurant dining expenditures did not suffer in that same time frame. Here's some stats you may find interesting from another blog - I'm notgoing to bother trying to find the url's again - ari says they're boring anyways - so trust me on these cut and paste quickie facts: Almost the entire increase in people without health insurance from 2005 to 2006 took place in families with incomes above $50,000. And most of these families are way over that modest benchmark: Two-thirds of the 2005-2006 increase was actually in families with incomes above $75,000. The number of uninsured people in families whose incomes were below $25,000 actually declined by about 4%. Most of the fabled uninsured fall into two categories: people who can afford coverage but choose not to buy it and people who are eligible for government aid but choose not to apply for it. So what are we to do with these folks who choose not to either use Medicaid/SCHIP or to buy a no frills high deductible health care policy? Are we supposed to hog tie them and drag them along with us into the black hole of mediocrity also known as universal health care system so we can all be forced to use VA Hospital style gubment dispensed health care services??? Is that a logical solution ? Just turn our health care system upside down for folks who don't set health services as a priority in their lives?
The families Im referring to make less than 50k per year.. Our health care system is part of what has and is going wrong with this country.. corporatism.. it's skewed in favor of corporations ..
Republicans hate cripples, I've seen it up close! :)
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
yeah ya try not to bounce when you hit the bottom.. ;P
Shake your hand Talking 'bout the sunshine...
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I agree with you completely, all your comments regarding this topic, scrapper2, and at the top of the list of what I've quoted above. One of the articles I read had the momma saying she wanted to promote the program......but then she sends her little boy out to be the poster boy. No doubt, expecting that no one would pick on a kid. And I don't see that they're picking on the kid......but the parents are getting their asses handed to them. I loathe and despise both of the political parties for how they use photo-op sessions to try to oneupsman the other guy. The parties could give a rats ass about that boy; its just a game. Suddenly 'everyone' is wanting universal health care. You'd think no one ever heard a thing about the veterans administration medical system, or the shut downs of facilities in Canada at various times because the money isn't there. Or that Oregon's great medical system is so good--cepting there is a growing list of what is NOT taken care of. Universal health care will not stop the coming across the border for freebie care--after all, it is just 'government funds'--they pluck it off trees over in the National Botanical Garden, I reckon. I seem to recall that cigarette taxes went up tremendously to pay for the CHIP program to cover poor kids. Non smokers got out of paying for that. With smoking on the downward spiral, what sort of funding mechanism is gonna be in place? Tax hikes, ya think? Funny thing about all these 'estimated costs........back when the democraps set up mediscare, it was so jokingly underestimated, it was sinful. But the republocraps are no better--the liar in chief's idea of free drugs for the elderly only costing 'x' was debunked when the acturials showed it would be more like "XXXX". So, no doubt, we'll be paying taxes in the range of 70 - 90% before long. Perhaps then we will be given the choice of our employer actually being a part of government, and they will just issue a check to us based on what they think we should have. I do believe it was a leading democrap who indicated the people were not capable of handling their own money.
I tried that and they charged me $250 for the wheelchair which I never saw.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
LOL! Hmm I was wondering if that hand was the hand of a freeper wishing it were someone else :P
You have indeed agreed with and supported the GOP hate machine's fury against one family, you have even copied it. And, you have engaged in many angry posts that often attack the poster, tactics we are familiar with especially when combined with carbon copy GOP hate machine disinfo; leading more than one moderate poster here to speculate about your motives. SCHIP allows up to $83,000, but the Frosts, a family of 6, make $45,000 - $50,000. The Frost family was not negligent. The Frosts also said that they recently have been denied private insurance coverage three times because of pre-existing medical conditions. According to the Times, "what on the surface appears to be yet another partisan feud ... actually cuts to the most substantive debate around SCHIP" -- that of eligibility levels. Ron Paul is also pro-life, yet many of his supporters are not. I doubt that Ron Paul is repeating the GOP hate machine disinfo spin.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
Put your hand in the hand of the Suicidal Trucker from Galilee they kept singing. I got scared and came home and ate some oatmeal.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
So someone below your $50K threshold applies for government aid and you assault them personally for doing so? Jesus.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestAs for accusations that bloggers were unfairly attacking a 12-year-old, Ms. Malkin wrote on her blog, “If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.”
#23. To: robin (#11)
a. Second mortgages come with a monthly payment, and you are assuming they could find private insurance. With such serious preexisting conditions it is very doubtful the Frosts would find a private health care provider for any price. And if they did, the insurance company probably wouldn't pay for all the necessary therapy. This happened to a middle-class family I know with one autistic child.
#24. To: scrapper2 (#23)
Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing.
#25. To: robin (#24)
COBRA
#26. To: Zipporah (#25)
And who can afford COBRA?
#27. To: scrapper2 (#23)
responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise.
#28. To: kiki (#27)
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
#29. To: scrapper2 (#28)
#30. To: robin (#24)
a. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker".
#31. To: scrapper2 (#30)
#32. To: All (#29)
I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important.
#33. To: robin (#31)
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
#34. To: kiki (#32)
gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
#35. To: scrapper2 (#19)
There was no pre-existing condition for the Frost Family in 2003 before the auto accident that I've read of.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#36. To: FormerLurker (#35)
Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
#37. To: Mekons4, scrapper2 (#26)
He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
#38. To: aristeides, Mekons4, scrapper2 (#37)
#39. To: aristeides (#3)
#40. To: Mekons4, Scrapper2 (#26)
#41. To: aristeides (#37)
#42. To: ghostdogtxn (#41)
(Edited)
#43. To: aristeides, Mekons4, Scrapper2, christine (#37)
#44. To: aristeides, Scrapper2, Mekons4, c hristine (#42)
#45. To: ghostdogtxn, scrapper2 (#44)
#46. To: FormerLurker, ghostdogtxn, christine, aristeides, robin (#35)
(Edited)
a. The bill authorizing HSA's was first ENACTED in 2003, thus most people wouldn't had been ready to sign up for one until 2004. The accident occured in 2004, thus it would have occured right about the time the Frosts had their first real opportunity to open an HSA...In other words, MAYBE they could have done what you suggest, but they would have struggled to come up with the money at minimum, and there is a distinct possibility that the accident occured BEFORE their first window of opportunity to purchase high deductable insurance and open a HSA.
#47. To: scrapper2 (#46)
Fyi, did you know that the fastest growing segment of uninsured in America are the MIDDLE CLASS ( they must have "other priorities" like eating out and Christmas shopping...)
#48. To: Zipporah (#47)
Did you read the news
This mornin’ when the paper landed in your yard
Do you know their names
Can you play their games
Without losin’ track, and comin’ down a bit too hard… ohhhhh
#49. To: ghostdogtxn, christine, aristeides, Mekons4, robin, Cynicom (#44)
But you know, this is a funny place. Once you get stuck in a position or an opinion, it's hard to back off of it. That's what I meant by "nobody apologizes". I think in this case Scrapper2 jumped to a conclusion and has been fighting a rear-guard action to defend that original leap of faith, and IMO, beyond the point where it's become indefensible.
#50. To: scrapper2 (#49)
#51. To: Zipporah (#47)
know many people who dont have health insurance..middle class and it's not cause they're out spending money on nonsense.. their employers dont offer it.. cause they're 'contractors'.. a way for employers to avoid the expense... and the cost of purchasing health insurance would cause them to not be able to pay for necessities such as rent, car payment, gasoline, food.. it would cut very deep into their pockets.. unfortunately they have to gamble that they wont get ill.. these are people in their late 20s and 30s. We can thank outsourcing for this..
#52. To: scrapper2 (#51)
#53. To: Zipporah (#52)
#54. To: Dakmar (#48)
#55. To: Dakmar (#53)
#56. To: Zipporah (#54)
Share the land....
#57. To: scrapper2 (#49)
But what is unforgiveable in my mind is that the Frost parents let their child be used as a pawn by the Dem Party to promote a political agenda. The Frosts knowingly let their son be USED by political hacks exposing him to public scrutiny. Would you do that to your kid?
#58. To: Zipporah (#55)
#59. To: Dakmar (#58)
#60. To: scrapper2, aristeides, Mekons4, ghostdogtxn, Zipporah (#49)
#61. To: Zipporah (#59)
#62. To: scrapper2 (#51)
Most of the fabled uninsured fall into two categories: people who can afford coverage but choose not to buy it and people who are eligible for government aid but choose not to apply for it.
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