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Title: The Genesis of the Smears (JOHN COLE ASKS ABOUT FREEPER ICUWHATUDO)
Source:
John Cole's Balloon Juice
URL Source: http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8849
Published: Oct 11, 2007
Author: John Cole
Post Date: 2007-10-11 14:47:37 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 2134
Comments: 176
The Genesis of the Smears By: John Cole October 11, 2007 at 12:53 pm Appears to have been an aide to Mitch McConnell, according to the Communists at ThinkProgress: On Monday morning, Don Stewart sent an email with the following text to reporters: Seen the latest blogswarm? Apparently, there’s more to the story on the kid (Graeme Frost) that did the Dems’ radio response on SCHIP. Bloggers have done a little digging and turned up that the Dad owns his own business (and the building it’s in), seems to have some commercial rental income and Graeme and a sister go to a private school that, according to its website, costs about $20k a year ‹for each kid‹ despite the news profiles reporting a family income of only $45k for the Frosts. Could the Dems really have done that bad of a job vetting this family? In the email, Stewart attacks Democrats for allegedly doing a bad job “vetting this family.” That effort to blame Democrats for the smear campaign seems to have swayed some reporters, as CNN this morning claimed that the real story is that “the Democrats didn’t do as much of a vetting as they could have done.” What is so surprising about all of this is not that all of the stuff in the leaked email has turned out to be completely false- that is just amusing. What is surprising is THE SPEED with which the “citizen journalists” ran with this, and echoed everything the leaked email did- just like good little soldiers. It was viral in no time. I would not be surprised if Malkin, Limbaugh, and some folks at the NRO were not in the coterie of ‘reporters’ this was emailed to, nor would I be surprised if they got it from a friend of a friend (despite pretending to be different from the beltway crowd, all of the above are insiders to the Washington game, despite their protests otherwise). I’d like to know a little more about the freeper who ran with this in the first place, giving Michelle and others their “in” to run with the story without having to be the ones to take the blame for doing it. Who is icuwhatudo? What is her/his real identity? How is this person connected to the McConnell aide or the reporters who received this list. Or was it just a coincidence? If I prided myself in being a citizen journalist, those are the questions I would be asking. And does anyone have any pictures of his living room?
ThinkProgress has obtained an email that congressional sources tell us was sent to reporters by Sen. McConnell’s communications director Don Stewart.
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Hey, I just drove by Don Stewart’s house! You should see the thing! It’s huge! Must cost a million bucks, with granite countertops and all! October 11th, 2007 at 1:29 pm Interesting comment on John Cole's thread.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
from USAToday From Daily Kos: They web published the home address of SCHIP family - what you can do
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I urge people to read your third link, the one from Daily Kos. It's truly shocking.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
When did icwhatudo's posting originate?
The level of organized hateful activity and the level of vitriol directed toward one average American family who already has a plateful of misfortune is truly astonishing.
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I don't know. I'd like to know.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Posted on 10/06/2007 10:42:57 PM PDT by icwhatudo Graeme Frost, who gave the democrat rebuttal to George Bush’s reasons for vetoing the SCHIP Bill, is a middle school student at the exclusive$20,000 per year Park School in Baltimore, MD. Early Sunday morning east coast time. The "Not So Poor" 12 Year Old Who Rebutted Bush on SCHIP Veto
Saying the family wasn’t vetted well isn’t exactly a smear. That’s not exactly it. “Not vetted” by itself is not a smear. But the rest of that e-mail provides and/or passes a long a number of choice tidbits, all incorrect, that were intended for use by smear-ers. They make over $45K, they own commercial property, expensive house, private school, etc.—all the talking points we’ve heard from Rush Limbaugh on down (or up). At the end of the e-mail you have the “vetted” comment, which lo and behold starts showing up in blog posts, troll comments and even CNN commentators (“Gosh, it sure looks like the Democrats didn’t do enough vetting…”) The “vetting” comment is what nails it as disseminated information that has found its way into the blogswarm. It’s the “giveaway” that seems to point to official GOP participation in feeding information and talking points to the rest of the world, without McConnell voicing anything himself. October 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm Another interesting comment from the John Cole thread. I'd be surprised if Republican Party oppo research were not involved. But the shocking possibility that I cannot dismiss from my mind is that they used information from the intelligence agencies.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
So let me get this straight: a. Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years? b. Are the Frosts not owners of commercial property worth $160,000 which brings in rental income, which also has enough cash equity in it to allow the Frosts to sell and make a profit to supplement their "meager" middle class life style? c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? d. If you were running a private school in Baltimore with its well documented poverty and crime and visible minority children living in dire circumstances, would you give the Frosts' not 1 but 2 children access to the small number of free ride scholarships at your school? Are the Frosts' children living in "special challenging" circumstances that they are needy for a "leg up?" e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage or did the big bad reich wing evil bloggers seek the anonymous Frosts family and drag them out to front and center stage?
Stop being so rational. It bothers people. e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage And that's a dangerous thing to do. For anybody.
"I searched through rebellion, drugs, diets, mysticism, religions, intellectualism and much more, only to begin to find...that truth is basically simple - and feels good, clean and right." - Chick Corea
Second mortgages come with a monthly payment, and you are assuming they could find private insurance. With such serious preexisting conditions it is very doubtful the Frosts would find a private health care provider for any price. And if they did, the insurance company probably wouldn't pay for all the necessary therapy. This happened to a middle-class family I know with one autistic child. Scholarships are awarded for a variety of reasons. It sounds like the Frosts were grateful and willing to share how the SCHIP program helped them, but they are no longer giving interviews because of the GOP hate machine.
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b. Are the Frosts not owners of commercial property worth $160,000 which brings in rental income, which also has enough cash equity in it to allow the Frosts to sell and make a profit to supplement their "meager" middle class life style? c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? d. If you were running a private school in Baltimore with its well documented poverty and crime and visible minority children living in dire circumstances, would you give the Frosts' not 1 but 2 children access to the small number of free ride scholarships at your school? Are the Frosts' children living in "special challenging" circumstances that they are needy for a "leg up?" e. Did Mr. and Mrs. Frost decide to thrust themselves and theiir family into the public stage or did the big bad reich wing evil bloggers seek the anonymous Frosts family and drag them out to front and center stage? A. I guess they could sell it and live on the street. How do you know they could take out a second mortgage, and is that fiscally wise if you have variable income? How do you know the cost of the countertops? In any case, wouldn't that be a wise investment for selling the house in the future? Would an insurance company accept two children with brain damage and expensive, long-term medical needs? B. And you know they own it how? And you know they get rental income from it how? C. Yes, they would have passed. In fact, they did. D. Let's see, the kid was undeserving, eh? It would have cost his parents half their gross income to send him to that school. The other kid is not on scholarship; her tuition is paid by the state. Why should the kid NOT get a scholarship? He's qualified. Or is this some liberal conspiracy? E. It's suddenly a crime to tell your story and support a program that helped you so that it can help others? Because you're in a rather lousy situation, you should have no voice in how our country is run? You're as despicable as Malkin is.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
a. I've read reports in the NYTin addition to other MSM reports about what properties the Frosts own. They own a greatly appreciated residential property and they own a commercial property valued at $160,00 from which they receive rental income. b. The state of Maryland does not have a means test for getting SCHIP funds. So no the Frosts did not pass a means test and yes they would have failed a means test with the assets they own. You are ill-informed or self-deluded - I'm not sure which - so don't try to pass along untruths to others just because you want to believe in the Frosts. c. You try to conflate pre-accident and post-accident events to confuse readers because you can't provide evidence to support your emotional need to vindicate the Frosts' continued irresponsible behavior - irresponsible for not providing proper medical insurance for their dependents though they had the means to do so; irresponsible for taking advantage of a lax state system in Maryland that neither uses means testing or takes into consideration a family's fungable financial assets before dispensing SCHIP funds; irresponsible for taking funds from a tax supported program whose intent was that the $ should be used for children of families living below the poverty line: irresponsible for allowing a minor child to be used as a pawn by Dem Party officials to promote a party agenda; irresponsible for exposing their family as whole to public scrutiny and ridicule with no thought given to possible negative consequences that those family members might suffer. Your continued personal attacks on me and steady stream of insults the past few days are inexcusable and frankly intolerable. I have given you a pass because I realize you have health problems yourself and you may have mis-interpreted the exposure of the Frosts' questionable actions as an attack on your dream of having Universal Health Care implemented in America. But you are no longer getting a pass from me. You are rude and coarse and you have conducted yourself like an ignorant bully. I'm one of the few posters here who has had the courage to stand up to the faux Pollyanna version image that political partisans like yourself and aristeides and robin and Fred Mertz want everyone to believe regarding the Frosts. To even question irregularities in their story has caused me suffer irrational attacks from all of you which is ridiculous. And because I refuse to get on your emotionally unstrung attack on eeevil reich wingers being the cause of this public spectacle that back fired on the Dems, you accuse me of "going over to to the Dark Side" and of "being one of them" - ooooooh, scary stuff - "they" have taken over my body. Wrap your minds around this earth shattering fact - the Frosts do not have a lock on sympathy or forgiveness for the stupid things they have done. The Frosts have chosen to be willing victims to the investigations that the "other side" would most certainly bring to bear the minute the Frosts decided to bring their holier than thou grand standing selves out of the shadows to the front of media microphones. Ma and Pa Frost chose to make their family fair game. And if the shoe were reversed and the Frosts represented a middle class family who took the stage on behalf of the GOP to talk about how they used their assets to protect their family from the effects of a catastrophic accident, you and your statist compadres would be after them like dirty shirts - examining their assets where they lived what schools the kids attended whether or not the parents had large inheritances squirreled away in Swiss banks accounts. Don't give me that crap about how evil reich wingers operate. Evil dem partisans operate the same way. No difference - both groups have closed minds and feel that their camp represents perfection, truth, and beauty, and light. In the case of the Frost Family, evil reich wingers did not scam SCHIP funds in Maryland. Evil reich wingers did not chose to leave their dependents unprotected from catastrophic accidents/health events. Evil reich wingers did not choose to allow a minor to be used as a political pawn. Evil reich wingers did not rush into center stage and expose family memebers to public scrutiny and ridicule. The Frosts are arrogant smug risk takers and unfortunately they don't learn from previous negative risk taking experiences. I hold no admiration or affection for Michele Malkin or for freakers or for George Bush. But in this particular case, I am not going to let myself be blind to the obvious irregularities in the way the Frosts have conducted themselves. The Frosts have acted irresponsibly in a variety of ways and they have brought on all this bad press and public scrutiny by their own selfish and not too bright choices. You are way out of line in what you've said to me the past few days and what you have just done now. You of all people labelling me as "dispicable" is nothing short of irony.
They would have failed a means test that doesn't exist? Interesting. You might also check what I have actually said to and about you. You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I often had the impression with BAC's long tirades that they were ready-made by some other person(s) and/or group for standard topics.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
You might also check what I have actually said to and about you. You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade. 1. You are not as clever as you think you are. Neil's software is a wonderful program - it saves everything we type and post. Before you edit your previous #12 response to my question, let me capture the sequence and save it for posterity: scrapper: "c. If the Frosts had lived in a state that has a means test for folks that qualify for tapping SCHIP funds, do you believe the Frosts would have passed? Mekons4:C. Yes, they would have passed. In fact, they did. 2. I don't do tirade. That's your game not mine. I do self-defense as the occasion demands against net bullies. October 11: "You're as despicable as Malkin is." October 08: "Is your nutty, extreme example of $83,00 middle class or upper class?" "You're just a vicious hate-mongering right-winger who, typically, has no idea where your own self-interest lies." "Let me guess. You're 20 and your mom lets you live at home free" "How many of people eligible make $83,000? Nearly NONE, you idiot." "You are a profoundly dishonest or stupid person. Choose one from the above. Or both. Which I think might be the case." "You're an idiot." "Obviously, you didn't go to an actual school." "Am I going too fast for you?" "And people like Ayn Rand, who you sound like, were anarchists."
The maximum contribution to a HSA per year for a family is $5,650. Additionally, health insurance, especially high deductable health insurance, doesn't cover pre-existing conditions, at least not for the first year.
Olbermann And Maddow On The Right’s Jihad On 12 Year Old Boy Maddow: “Twelve year old Graeme Frost, meet Cindy Sheehan, meet 9/11 widows, meet Staff Sgt. Brian McGough, meet Michael J. Fox, meet the kids who were targeted by Mark Foley, meet Jack Murtha. I mean, Graeme Frost as a twelve year old now joins an esteemed list of Americans who have been personally attacked, personally slimed, called liars and cowards and frauds, and threatened for daring to publicly espouse a view that the right disagrees with. I mean, just when you think you’ve found the person who they can’t possibly slime, I don’t know, say a twelve year old kid just out of a coma, turns out yeah, the bar does actually go that low, it’s just astonishing.” Filed Under: Air America, Countdown/Keith Olbermann, Hackery, MSNBC, Rachel Maddow, Right Wing Pundits, Right Wing Radio, Right
There was no pre-existing condition for the Frost Family in 2003 before the auto accident that I've read of. And having $5,000 in an HSA would have taken care of health maintenance issues like physicals vaccinations ear infections that a high deductible plan would not cover. But having a high deductible catastrophic health insurance plan in place would have provided the necessary health care that came about due to the auto accident. And once enrolled in such a plan the insurer can't kick you out just because you cost them money. The pre-existing brain damage as a result of the auto accident would be a moot point. Furthermore, a high deductible insurance plan would have been significantly less costly in monthly premiums than what Mrs. Frost quoted to the media - I think she threw out a figure of $1200 per month of plans she looked into. I would suggest that she made superficial enquiries at best. Anyone who has car insurance, home insurance, health insurance knows that the first obvious cost saving measure you can do as a consumer is to have a high deductible in place. It isn't rocket science. What's your point exactly?
Additionally from Crooks and Liars: Malkin Debases Herself With Further Attacks On A 12 Year Old. C&L Exclusive Quote! (Remember this ad for Bush in ‘04?) Do you actually think I would ever have considered attacking her and her family because of their support of Bush? I mean, it boggles the mind, doesn’t it? The utter depravity of it all. The sickness that dwells inside the Malkinites must run deeper than I thought. That’s the only way they can continue to dwell in such slime. I have an exclusive quote from an anonymous source close to the story: “What these right wing bloggers and some of their Republican friends in Washington have done to this family is simply unconscionable. Instead of attacking the issue, they decided to attack a 12-year old boy. This entire smear campaign by the likes of Rush Limbaugh, Michelle Malkin and their allies has been a perverse distraction from the issue at hand - the plight of millions of uninsured children in this country. It also needs to be remembered that the Frosts were viciously attacked for simply speaking their minds and voicing their support for the SCHIP program that was so instrumental in saving the lives of their children. From the Frosts’ perspective, what could be more American? Hmmm…just debating the issue at hand. Now there’s an idea. You may remember that Howard Kurtz wrote a glowing profile of the right wing’s very own Michelle Malkin a while back. It was rather odd, but not surprising. Soon after he attacked the Huffington Post for having some nasty comments about Dick Cheney on their site, which is a favorite trick of the mmm-essss-mmm. It was dirty pool because he understands the nature of blogging. Since you write about the bloggers quite often, Howie, will you denounce the right wing/Malkin attempts to smear a family and a 12 year old boy? (Here is a public email: http://projects.washingtonpost One critic, in an e-mail message to Graeme’s mother, Bonnie, warned: “Lie down with dogs, and expect to get fleas.” As it turns out, the Frosts say, Graeme attends the private school on scholarship. The business that the critics said Mr. Frost owned was dissolved in 1999. The family’s home, in the modest Butchers Hill neighborhood of Baltimore, was bought for $55,000 in 1990 and is now worth about $260,000, according to public records. And, for the record, the Frosts say, their kitchen counters are concrete. Republicans on Capitol Hill, who were gearing up to use Graeme as evidence that Democrats have over-expanded the health program to include families wealthy enough to afford private insurance, have backed off. An aide to Senator Mitch McConnell of Kentucky, the Republican leader, expressed relief that his office had not issued a press release criticizing the Frosts. As for accusations that bloggers were unfairly attacking a 12-year-old, Ms. Malkin wrote on her blog, “If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.” All the proof you need is Rep. Mitch McConnell backing off of the Frost family. Would he so willingly fade away? Actually the real message is that if anyone stands up against the Republican agenda, the right wing bloggers will smear and stalk you with the desired effect of “STFU or we’ll ruin you.” Intimidation, plain and simple. How many times have we seen this? But to be so low as to go after a child. Joe Gandleman–who isn’t a liberal–has a great take on it: But no, it’s easier to go after a 12 year-old. After all, these days, anyone who is in the way of an agenda has to be discredited so that no one listens to them anymore. Yet, once upon a time, American society would pull out all stops not to go after a kid. The bar has been lowered yet again. This time it has been lowered so far, it has struck oil amid the sleaze…read on T
They wanted their 15 minutes...and they got it. Just not they way they wanted.
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price." Vir Cotto, Babylon 5
Politicians and their minions are some of the worst gutter-trash on the planet. Thieves, liars, pedophiles and thugs. And these parents exposed their kids to that environment?! I never took my kid to a bar or a keg party. Why...? Because I have a fucking brain and didn't want my kid exposed that kind of bullshit, that's why!
"I'd like to live just long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price." Vir Cotto, Babylon 5
b. Scholarships are awarded for a variety of reasons. It sounds like the Frosts were grateful and willing to share how the SCHIP program helped them, but they are no longer giving interviews because of the GOP hate machine. a. I'm not sure what you are talking about. What "pre-existing" condition did any of the Frost Family members have prior to their auto accident that prevented Mr. and Mrs. Frost from buying a health insurance policy for the family? Once you have a health insurance policy in place, they can't refuse to cover medical issues that come as a result of a car accident. That's why responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise. Your friend's austic child is not relevant to the discussion about why I believe that the Frosts were irresponsible in the way they did not prepare their family in 2003 against an out-of-the-blue health emergency, which unfortunately subsequently happened. Monthly payments for second mortgages that amount to $20,000 are peanuts - I've been there so I know of what I speak - in 2003, the Frosts would have been given an excellent rate because of the equity in their highly appreciated residence as well as the equity they had in their commercial property. b. Scholarships in private schools are generally given to minority children living in dire straights who deserve a leg up - basically scholarships represent a way for a private school to "give back" to their community to help disadvantaged children in their midst whose financial circumstances are very different from their full pay student parent body. The Frosts should have better scruples than to apply for this type of scholarship because it deprived 2 children who were truly needy. As for why the Frosts will no longer give interviews - they thrust themselves into the kitchen but they did not like the fires. Maybe they should have thought about the risks of grabbing a microphone and taking center stage before they did what they did. Hindset is 20/20 vision. With regards to the "GOP hate machine" - oh yes, righhhht, for sure, most definitely - the "problem" is the GOP not the Dems who used a child to promote their agenda and it's not the Frosts who scammed a system meant for impoverished children because they consciously took risks with their children's future and lost when Fate stepped in. Lalalalalala...
The idea that when someone doesn't have health insurance before a catastrophic illness that they are then doomed for the rest of their lives, unable to ever acquire any, is not a very productive notion for society as a whole. It certainly is not compassionate. Many Americans had health insurance while employed, but after losing their jobs, and COBRA runs out, they are without any, until they find another employer who has good health insurance benefits. The point of my friend's experience with an autistic child was to show you that even with current health insurance, companies refuse claims regularly. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker". As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient.
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And who can afford COBRA?
No one unemployed, that's for sure. The deceptiveness going on by a certain poster got on my last nerve. He's just spewing the Bush/Rush line, amplifying the hate machine's usual spew. We have a society for one reason: to make life better for our citizens. We are the only country left in the industrialized world that doesn't have national health care. We may have the BEST health care, but if 40 percent of your citizens can't afford it, what the hell is the value of that? Scrapper's constant drumbeat to demonize the victim strikes me as disingenuous. He's spinning like crazy. He seems to know what the family paid for its counter tops. My brother, just as an example, gets free Vermont marble from a quarry. They end up with chunks they can't sell wholesale, they're too small, so they are happy to have him tote them away in his F-250. He uses these scraps to put together patios, walkways, counter tops, etc. To claim they cost $20,000 is just ignorant and SPINNING. He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
Well it's your kind of thinking that evidently the Frost Family shared. And for them - because they had other "priorities" - they took risks with their kids furture and Fate intervened and delivered a catastrophic blow. Sorry but I don't feel my taxpayer dollars through SCHIP -should cover your risk taking decisions or those of the Frost Family. My tax dollars in SCHIP were intended to help the truly impoverished children, not middle class families who are intent on feathering up a desirable college application for their child. I have always paid my own freight and planned for health and financial emergencies. I have little sympathy for those who can afford to plan accordingly but don't because of what they judge to be "other priorities" at the time but turn around and expect me a hard working self-sufficient worker bee - to bail out their grass hopper selves on the rainy day that comes. Everyone thinks their "other priorities" take precedence over providing a health and financial cushion for unexpected eventualities - I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important. I'm a very traditional conservative. I have never been a care free grasshopper except for my college years. I can't relate to adults who think they are so special that others should look after them and their children when they can well afford and should assume that responsibility. It's a concept that is very foreign to me. But that's just me I guess - a good little worker bee through and through.
well, I certainly did not say I expect to be bailed out by you or anyone else in the event of a "rainy day" - I do not expect that. I understand that I could be destroyed in such an event. lately I'm understanding that, being middle class, I could be destroyed regardless, so it's actually becoming less of a worry, or at least less of something I would pour my limited resources into. I'm not a wealthy person - I do have to pick and choose where my income goes. I have to prioritize. and I do look back and think of what I could have done with my income in years where I spent it on risks like insurance that I didn't end up needing. it's a gamble. I'm happy for you that it's so clear and that you feel it's money well spent. I've never reached that level of self assurance, probably because I've never reached that level of income that I can't help but worry about and regret money spent 'just in case"
b. Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing. c. As I already posted, there are all kinds of scholarships d. You are very eager to defend the GOP hate machine. Why is that? e. Health care as enjoyed in Europe is quite good and economically efficient. a. sorry I don't take plot lines from Hollywood movies as my guiding light on political matters. Rain Maker was an entertaining movie but it was based on a fictionalized novel written by a lawyer. b. if everyone is losing jobs stateside due to off-shoring, who exactly is going to pay for these mega grand from sea to sea all inclusive health care program? c. And you have experience with private schools to know this for fact? I have had personal experience with private schools and I think I'm in a better position to understand the goal and mission of private schools' offering scholarships. d. I am not defending the GOP "hate machine" just as I am not defending risk taking scammers like the Frosts. I have no vested personal interest in either group. You appear to have a personal need to try to redeem and defend the Frosts' indefensible behavior and to focus your unabated wrath on those eeevil reich wingers who obviously caused the Frosts to forgo proper insurance they could afford, to tap into SCHIP $ that was intended for impovershed children and to thrust temselves into the public eye and grab their 15 minutes of show boating fame. Oh yes, I forgot one more thing that the evil reich wingers caused and that was using a child as a pawn for a political agenda that blew up in their faces - ah yes, those evil reich wingers - man oh man - they are also responsible for famines in Zimbabwe and unseasonable cold weather in Spain.. and...the list goes on...what would we do without the evil reich wingers? Gosh we might have to "own" our bad choices. e. And you know this because you have lived in Europe and used the medical care there recently? Or because you are a medical researcher who has studied the subject like Dr. David Gratzer, M.D. has? Get real - you don't have the experience or the medical background to speak with any level of certainty or authority about health care outside your immediate personal world.
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
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gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
What a laugh! Err...thanks for your "concern" but I don't think I'm in need of mental health intervention. You really are embaressing yourself with your not so smooth insults. My goodness - what have I done to earn this wrath? By pointing out irregularities in the "official" Frost Family tale of woe and by not buying into the schtick about how universal health care is needed so pre-natal checks can be provided to everyone to avoid "basket cases" being born (your words not mine) and that we'll all feel better for it even though we'll end up in a queue indefinitely for accessing health care services, these small sacrifices must happen for The Greater Good. hahahaha...is that right? you and aristeides and mekons4 - the 3 Amigos for creating a better Utopian world - are in a tzzy because I questioned your facts and pronouncements? Too bad. If you reach unsubstantiated conclusions and expect everyone is going to be "go along folks" you are dreaming. There are going to be alot of middle class middle aged taxpayers who are going to be pissed and who will question your statist vision for Universal Health Care and these people will not go silently into the queues.
You were the one who began musing about "other priorities" rather than "wasting money on health care premiums" like paying for extra curricular activities for your daughter to feather her college application. Clearly if you can afford college for your daughter and you can afford paying for after school activities like perhaps piano and gymnastic lessons, you are middle class and you are no poorer than I am. Health care insurance like auto insurance like home owners insurance has always been a top priority for me. I never question the need for insurance - I will put off spending on other things that might be more fun or personally satisfying or more of a long term investment of one kind or another, but I have never ever gone without being insured up the wazoo. Maybe it's different for you but then you must live with the consequences of contemplating that insurance is a waste of money.
{...} Furthermore, a high deductible insurance plan would have been significantly less costly in monthly premiums than what Mrs. Frost quoted to the media - I think she threw out a figure of $1200 per month of plans she looked into. {...} What's your point exactly? The bill authorizing HSA's was first ENACTED in 2003, thus most people wouldn't had been ready to sign up for one until 2004. The accident occured in 2004, thus it would have occured right about the time the Frosts had their first real opportunity to open an HSA. Even so, there would not have been any money in their HSA, and the high deductable insurance that is required usually requires the entire HSA contribution for that year as a deductable. For lower deductable HSA qualified insurance policies, the premium could well be $1200 or so a month. In other words, MAYBE they could have done what you suggest, but they would have struggled to come up with the money at minimum, and there is a distinct possibility that the accident occured BEFORE their first window of opportunity to purchase high deductable insurance and open a HSA. Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
Yes indeed. Or they could have dropped their injured children off at the govt, making them wards of the court, and gone on with their lives as usual. Or maybe they should have watched them suffer and die.
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He posts the same kind of lengthy posts with more information than you would think a solitary individual could come up with in the short time between his posts that BAC did. In BAC's case, I strongly suspected some organization was providing him with his posts.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
wow, i don't understand how you all can think that scrapper is BAC or that she's a GOP operative??
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
I can understand disagreeing on an issue like health care. I can't understand joining in the attack on the Frosts.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
and the only GOP'er i've seen her be an advocate for is Ron Paul! ;)
b. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government c. than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year. Uh huh, uh huh... a. Here's the month and year of the accident the Frosts had(per Aristeides article in msg #29) "Bonnie Frost was driving children Zeke, Graeme and Gemma in Baltimore County in December 2004 when the family SUV hit a patch of black ice and slammed into a tree. Graeme sustained a brain stem injury; Gemma suffered a cranial fracture" Because the accident occurred in December, 2004 there were 11 months for Mr. and Mrs. Frost to set up a modest Health Savings Account ( up to $5000) to cover incidental doctor's office visits and to secure a high deductible catastrophic medical insurance plan. Count them 11 months before the accident occurred. There is no excuse for their negligence/risk taking. They owned 2 properties. I don't care whether they had concrete or granite counters or whether they were self installed or installed by another contractor - that's minutiae - the point is that the Frosts owned a nice looking residential home that had appreciated in value considerably and in light of their other property ownership, they would have qualified for a real sweet interest rate if they needed a $5000 line of credit in 2004. They probably had 2 vehicles one of which was an SUV, which is not an exactly cheap vehicle to buy or own. So give me a friggin' break about grabbing at straws trying find excuses for them for not getting a proper health insurance policy for their dependent children. The Frosts had the time and the assets to do the right thing by their family members and they chose not to. End of story. b. as for money well spent on American families' health care needs - well how "Noblesse Olige" of you FormerLurker. You may get your wish in the Millions big fellah - because there's lots more middle class families waiting in the wings who will want to take you up on your taxpayer generosity if Nancy and Harry have their way with the expansion of SCHIP - there's lotsa middle class well heeled votes to buy out there in a run up to an election year, doncha know? Fyi, did you know that the fastest growing segment of uninsured in America are the MIDDLE CLASS ( they must have "other priorities" like eating out and Christmas shopping...) "The coverage gap is widening fastest at upper incomes. Almost the entire increase in people without health insurance from 2005 to 2006 took place in families with incomes above $50,000 (median family income is $48,200). The number of uninsured people in families whose incomes were below $25,000 actually declined by about 4%. Families with incomes above $50,000 a year account for an improbable 93% of the 2.1 million increase in the uninsured, and now represent 38% of the total uninsured in the United States. Two-thirds of the 2005-2006 increase was actually in families with incomes above $75,000! How far up into the middle class these incomes put someone obviously depends on where they live. In Manhattan, $75,000 a year is not a lot of money (consider that just parking your car, if you are foolish enough to own one, can cost $500 a month). In Topeka, Kansas, however, it’s upper middle class. The average US household presently spends about 6% of its disposable household income on healthcare; the above average income household spends much less. In 2005, Americans spent about $250 billion out of pocket on health services and had another $190 billion taken out of their paychecks for health insurance premiums. In 2005, we spent a comparable amount, about $440 billion, on Christmas presents and about $470 billion on restaurants and fast food. How important is health coverage for middle and upper middle class households in their mix of spending priorities?... c. As for your remark about wasting money on useless foreign wars - I agree with your 100%. But unfortunately both the GOP and Dem politicians love their wars. Nancy and Harry have not shut down the Iraq War as they had promised. In fact the Dems are itching to attack Iran probably using a draft to do it in 2009 - heck why not? fighting wars on the cheap through conscription is second nature to Dem Presidents - WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam As for Mexican politicians grabbing our money, you forgot the 20 Million Mexican illegals themselves using our taxpayer provided perks - robin says she believes that illegals should get universal health care access too because it's good for our society if everyone here is healthy and having pre-natal checks and stuff - even if they are not legal residents/citizens and not paying their income tax freight charges. You see where this insane "Noblesse Olige" bleeding heart mindset leads us - universal health care for all, legal or illegal - we all should get government dispensed health care - aristeides, robin, and Mekons4 are promoting VA Health Care for you and me and ghost and christine and Pedro and Pedro's extended family
Ive not been following this thread but did see this.. I know many people who dont have health insurance..middle class and it's not cause they're out spending money on nonsense.. their employers dont offer it.. cause they're 'contractors'.. a way for employers to avoid the expense... and the cost of purchasing health insurance would cause them to not be able to pay for necessities such as rent, car payment, gasoline, food.. it would cut very deep into their pockets.. unfortunately they have to gamble that they wont get ill.. these are people in their late 20s and 30s. We can thank outsourcing for this..
Did you pay your dues " Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Ghost and christine, thanks for votes of confidence to assure everyone that I'm not a mole. Sheeesh! Is that the latest insult that the 3 Amigos for a Utopian Leninesque World have come up with today? - my goodness, what next? - wild imaginations, they are not short of, I have to give praise where praise is due. But ghost I'm not having any second thoughts about my position on the Frost parents. IMO, they were negligent in not providing a basic high deductible insurance policy to protect their family against catastrophic events and they had the assets ( 2 properties) and the means - they could have gotten a real sweet deal for a line of credit of $5000 to start up in HSA in January, 2004 so as to get a cheaper rate on the high deductible insurance premium - and HSA's are tax deductible, a win/win. But they chose to throw caution to the wind - they rolled the dice and they lost and lost terribly. They got lucky because Maryland's laws were lax and a means test was not required to access SCHIP funds. If they resided in other states that require means testing [ I think means testing should be a requirement in all states] the Frosts would have failed. There's no doubt about it - they had too many assets. But what is unforgiveable in my mind is that the Frost parents let their child be used as a pawn by the Dem Party to promote a political agenda. The Frosts knowingly let their son be USED by political hacks exposing him to public scrutiny. Would you do that to your kid? With regards to the reich wingers going after the Frosts - I don't defend their tactics - I never have - but how does Michele Malkin's distasteful conduct excuse the Frosts' negligence and irresponsible behavior and bad decisions? It doesn't and you know it and aristeides and robin and Mekons4 know it too - that's why those 3 are trying so hard to kick up dust on the issue and blame the evil reich wingers for this very sad situation. The reich winger party partisans are doing exactly what the left winger partisans would do if the situation were reversed, which is take advantage of opportunity when it presents itself and to go for the jugular. The Frosts parents chose to come out of the shadows - the reich wingers did not pull them out in front of the microphones - as soon as the Frosts consented to go public,they became fair game. Consider that if there had been no glaring irregularities in the Frost Family story, the Dems would have been successful in using a little boy ( how is that noble?) to promote their expanded SCHIP platform agenda - ie. to buy votes of middle class families earning up to $83,000 in the run up to the 2008 election. Come on - you think the Dem Party is wanting to expand SCHIP out of the goodness of their hearts or because they love the children more the the GOP? I don't think so. As Cyni pointed out elsewhere - both parties use and abuse sheeple individuals to get elected, to get more power and then the sheeple are discarded and forgotten like yesterday's newspaper. You're a Ron Paul supporter, yes? Ron Paul voted "no" to expand the SCHIP program. You think Ron Paul who is an obgyn hates kids and that's why he voted "no"? No it's more likely that he knows how the intent of the SCHIP 1997 legislation has been totally lost/ misused - SCHIP was set up by bipartisan votes to specifically help impoverished children of indigent families. States like Maryland don't even do a means test before they shell out $ - Baltimore has countless #'s of impoverished children but the Maryland officials gave $ designated for impoverished children in the state to the Frosts who own 2 properties and an SUV - does that seem right? - some states have even given SCHIP money holus bolus to adults - does that seem right? I read recently that one of the big cheerleaders for expanded SCHIP is the Governor of New Jersey - dumteedum -my taxpayer antennae go up whenever I hear that a NJ politician is a booster for an entitlement program.
The spinning continues. When you're on the side of Rushbo, Malkin, Coulter et al, you might want to investigate the facts. What "business" did they own? What was it worth when it was dissolved? You act like your high-deductible insurance is free. It's not. It's very expensive, and when you are supporting a family of six on $45,000 a year...well, let's see YOU do it. Your insistent attack on the Frosts is just sickening. Keep spamming and spinning, but the duty of any society is to improve the lives of its citizens. If you want to, in the words of Jeanne Kirkpatrick, make America safe for rich people with lawyers, by all means go ahead. Just stop being disingenuous about it.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Did they find money to spend on Christmas shopping and eating out? I ask that because in a previous msg. I linked to a Health blog that went through statistical data and demonstarted that the greatest growing numbers of the uninsured were middle class who had the means to afford health insurance. But though these middle class individuals went without health care, Christmas expenditures and restaurant dining expenditures did not suffer in that same time frame. Here's some stats you may find interesting from another blog - I'm notgoing to bother trying to find the url's again - ari says they're boring anyways - so trust me on these cut and paste quickie facts: Almost the entire increase in people without health insurance from 2005 to 2006 took place in families with incomes above $50,000. And most of these families are way over that modest benchmark: Two-thirds of the 2005-2006 increase was actually in families with incomes above $75,000. The number of uninsured people in families whose incomes were below $25,000 actually declined by about 4%. Most of the fabled uninsured fall into two categories: people who can afford coverage but choose not to buy it and people who are eligible for government aid but choose not to apply for it. So what are we to do with these folks who choose not to either use Medicaid/SCHIP or to buy a no frills high deductible health care policy? Are we supposed to hog tie them and drag them along with us into the black hole of mediocrity also known as universal health care system so we can all be forced to use VA Hospital style gubment dispensed health care services??? Is that a logical solution ? Just turn our health care system upside down for folks who don't set health services as a priority in their lives?
The families Im referring to make less than 50k per year.. Our health care system is part of what has and is going wrong with this country.. corporatism.. it's skewed in favor of corporations ..
Republicans hate cripples, I've seen it up close! :)
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
yeah ya try not to bounce when you hit the bottom.. ;P
Shake your hand Talking 'bout the sunshine...
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I agree with you completely, all your comments regarding this topic, scrapper2, and at the top of the list of what I've quoted above. One of the articles I read had the momma saying she wanted to promote the program......but then she sends her little boy out to be the poster boy. No doubt, expecting that no one would pick on a kid. And I don't see that they're picking on the kid......but the parents are getting their asses handed to them. I loathe and despise both of the political parties for how they use photo-op sessions to try to oneupsman the other guy. The parties could give a rats ass about that boy; its just a game. Suddenly 'everyone' is wanting universal health care. You'd think no one ever heard a thing about the veterans administration medical system, or the shut downs of facilities in Canada at various times because the money isn't there. Or that Oregon's great medical system is so good--cepting there is a growing list of what is NOT taken care of. Universal health care will not stop the coming across the border for freebie care--after all, it is just 'government funds'--they pluck it off trees over in the National Botanical Garden, I reckon. I seem to recall that cigarette taxes went up tremendously to pay for the CHIP program to cover poor kids. Non smokers got out of paying for that. With smoking on the downward spiral, what sort of funding mechanism is gonna be in place? Tax hikes, ya think? Funny thing about all these 'estimated costs........back when the democraps set up mediscare, it was so jokingly underestimated, it was sinful. But the republocraps are no better--the liar in chief's idea of free drugs for the elderly only costing 'x' was debunked when the acturials showed it would be more like "XXXX". So, no doubt, we'll be paying taxes in the range of 70 - 90% before long. Perhaps then we will be given the choice of our employer actually being a part of government, and they will just issue a check to us based on what they think we should have. I do believe it was a leading democrap who indicated the people were not capable of handling their own money.
I tried that and they charged me $250 for the wheelchair which I never saw.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
LOL! Hmm I was wondering if that hand was the hand of a freeper wishing it were someone else :P
You have indeed agreed with and supported the GOP hate machine's fury against one family, you have even copied it. And, you have engaged in many angry posts that often attack the poster, tactics we are familiar with especially when combined with carbon copy GOP hate machine disinfo; leading more than one moderate poster here to speculate about your motives. SCHIP allows up to $83,000, but the Frosts, a family of 6, make $45,000 - $50,000. The Frost family was not negligent. The Frosts also said that they recently have been denied private insurance coverage three times because of pre-existing medical conditions. According to the Times, "what on the surface appears to be yet another partisan feud ... actually cuts to the most substantive debate around SCHIP" -- that of eligibility levels. Ron Paul is also pro-life, yet many of his supporters are not. I doubt that Ron Paul is repeating the GOP hate machine disinfo spin.
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Put your hand in the hand of the Suicidal Trucker from Galilee they kept singing. I got scared and came home and ate some oatmeal.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
So someone below your $50K threshold applies for government aid and you assault them personally for doing so? Jesus.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Old fashioned.. quick ..or Scottish?
Health insurance rates have skyrocketed in recent years. Americans are paying more than other nations and getting less. The elderly are well taken care of, why not children? Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
Which one had the scalded milk?
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
You act like your high-deductible insurance is free. It's not. It's very expensive, and when you are supporting a family of six on $45,000 a year...well, let's see YOU do it. Your insistent attack on the Frosts is just sickening. Keep spamming and spinning, but the duty of any society is to improve the lives of its citizens. If you want to, in the words of Jeanne Kirkpatrick, make America safe for rich people with lawyers, by all means go ahead. Just stop being disingenuous about it. When will you stop lying about me? You are a person with no scruples - your consistent stretching of the truth, making up scenarios as you go along, impuning my character as it suits your cause - catch a clue why don't you - your tactics are transparent and they reflect poorly on you not on me - I hope you realize that. You say I'm on the side of "Rushbo, Malkin, Coulter et al". I have consistently stated that reich wingers like Malkin's antics are distasteful. So stop aligning me with people I have never praised and whom I do not admire. I don't insistently attack the Frosts. I state facts which no one can defend. They owned 2 properties. They had assets in addition to their $48,000 annual income that many middle class people only aspire to have. They choose not to establish an HSA and they chose not to buy a catastrphic health care plan. They accessed a fund that was specifically designated to serve impoverished children of indigent families - the $ the Frosts used was that much less for poor children in Maryland to have access to. They allowed their child to be used by a political party as a pawn, which resulted in their family coming under public scrutiny. The evil reich wingers distasteful tactics do not absolve Mr. and Mrs. Frost for their series of irresponsible negligent actions and bad choices -Mr. and Mrs. Frost own them and you can't blame the evil reich wingers for those decisions and actions. The evil recichwingers only came into the picture after the Dems orchestrated the photo op with Graeme. As for society and its duties, thanks but I think we have something better in place in this republic than your philosophical musings about what the responsibilites of taxpayer supported government programs are - and in that document spelling out duties of federal government no where do I read "dispensing universal health care" and nowhere do I read "improve the lives of its citizens" - thank you PlatoMekons4 for your suggestion but I like the Founders' vision better. As for lawyers - hey I'm no fan of lawyers - why do think I have health/auto/home insurance up the wazoo -??? - because I like dealing with lawyers or I have a lawyer on consignment? No it's to protect me and my family and our assets FROM greedy trial lawyers. And on the subject of health care costs and lawyers, you might consider that if we didn't have malpractice lawyers and their greedy citizens hoping to strike it big with a frivolous lawsuit, we wouldn't have physicians ordering every test under the sun to protect their as**s from lawsuits. But I don't see or hear Hilary and other Dems [or even you for that matter] talking about TORT REFORM when they talk about universal health care. The Trial Lawyers Association is one of the top 10 donors to the Dem Party.
What would you do if you you got sick on Saturn?
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I don't get out of town that much, but I carry everything with me when I do.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
Spin, Spin, Spin. They made under $50,000 and the law was that access to SCHIP was limited to 200 percent of the poverty rate, in this case about $56,000 for a family of six. You just don't like facts, you prefer saying they should have bought your fantastical insurance plans. Just try raising 4 kids on $45 K and then explain to me where the $500 a month for insurance comes from. No one is ever as wrong as a reactionary with a total inept grasp of the facts. You want them to be guilty of something, so you smear and smear and smear. It's pathetic. They qualified for the SCHIP, their kids would be living in a gutter without it, and you think anyone who supports the program is Leninist. Pathetic. Just totally pathetic.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I recommend the Space Truckin pact: " Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I once knew a guy who wanted to make a movie called "Lowriders in Outer Space". In Spanish with subtitles, of course. Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
that's not my understanding of SCHIP. impoverished children of indigent families are eligible for medicaid. SCHIP was set up for children who specifically did not qualify for medicaid. I think.
Without double-checking I'll guess Pontiac.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
That's my understanding too. It's to catch those who do not qualify for govt Medicare and are not able to obtain or afford health insurance. Children from birth through age 18 who live in families with incomes above the Medicaid thresholds in 1996 and up to 200% of the federal poverty level are eligible for the SCHIP Medicaid expansion program.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
The "gill" lines on the fenders threw me.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
What the hell question is that? Elderly pay for insurance premiums--comes out of their checks automatically. The feds may have paid $50 billion, but the elderly are making up the difference--they pay for the premiums for the insurance, with few exceptions based on very low incomes. [How this guy has any idea how much they spent for a fiscal year only technically closed 12 days will be interesting to learn, I'm sure]. CHIPS is funded, if not totally by cigarette or tobacco taxes, has a large chunk of it funded by smokers who are NOT children nor the parents of these kids. I know all about insurance having skyrocketed. I know what happened with my insurance. I also know about how people make choices. I know I did when I was a mother with small kids. I lived on popcorn and jello for a week or so in order that my kids got the nutritious foods. BFD.....you do what you have to do--unless of course, you want the nanny state taking care of cradle to grave. I know what the VA system has done to veterans and their families. I read what happens in Canada. I know about the 12 - 20 - 30 million aliens flooding the nation here who use up valuable dollars. I've read about Oregon's only paying for certain things.......the list gets reduced all the time as to what they can afford to do. Get government out of the business and see what happens. Get the illegals out of here and see how costs get handled.......hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc., have to make up the non-payers with payers. And when the feds quit demanding that every insurance policy cover pregnancy or warts on nipples or whatever the hell they demand next, premium rates will go down. Women who have gone through menopause don't need prenancy coverage. If I want mammogram coverage, I can have it included in the policy I buy. If I want mental health care, likewise. What will happen when this universal care comes thru is this.........the interest on the national debt is taken care of first........then there will be this monstrous entitlement.......then there will be nothing left. For sure we won't be starting any wars, cause there would not be a way to fund them. When you have a government that makes it a part of law that you can't import drugs because they are cheaper, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. And you want this same government to handle YOUR health care? Or your kids? Or grandkids?
That's why I think we should tax Israelis and make them sell ham to Persians, while singing and/or crawling along the edge of a razor.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I'm sorry, that wasn't exactly a straight answer, was it? Do you ever post at LP? If do, please tell byelstin I said "Trouble go away at nigh', an' Nell caw Mi'i - an' Nell an' Mi'i - ye', Nell an' Mi'i - like t'ee in the way!". will you?
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Govt. does not equal Bush/DeLay. This was a giveaway to the HMO/Pharma conspiracy. Remember one guy was threatened that if his kid ran for his office, they would finance someone else to run against him in the primary and give him hundreds of thousands of dollars? And the poor sap caved. There is something wrong, alright. It's called Republicans.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Sorry--dont post there; seldom even bother to stop by there........
sorry, but once again how did we get to this point?
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
B-I-N-G-O and Bingo was his name-O.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Well maybe you should... :)
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
OH BULLSHIT........the dems are just as bad. When I worked in the State Senate back in the late 80s, there was a very popular, well known demo who just happened to be a prof at UM who instigated a bill to TAX prescription drugs, even though he knew the elderly and chronically ill would be severely impacted. Oh well.....money had to come from somewhere and the people of the state didn't want a sales tax! Don't give me the bullshit that only dems care...........and screw the republcraps, too. Tossin bones to the peons while they piss away this nation and her people.
I only regret I was banned years ago - I'd love to post there now and poke names at those yapping monkey morons.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
That would be as gagging as TOS1. No thank you...
Apparently to some here, there aren't supposed to be any negative consequences for not purchasing a personal injury/medical care rider on your auto insurance policy when you could have clearly afforded it. And apparently this also isn't supposed to be pointed out when you allow your children to be used in a partisan radio spot on the topic of medical coverage. Go figure.
We should start a band called TOS1 and sue everyone infringing. That or laugh at them.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
And your proof of this is? Nada.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
No one is ever as wrong as a reactionary with a total inept grasp of the facts. You want them to be guilty of something, so you smear and smear and smear. It's pathetic. They qualified for the SCHIP, their kids would be living in a gutter without it, and you think anyone who supports the program is Leninist. Pathetic. Just totally pathetic Maryland does not have a means test. Maryland does not consider assets as part of the family's financial level. If the Frosts lived in another state that had means tests and considered property ownership and other assets into the computation of "need", the Frosts would have failed. Maryland had lax laws - the intent of the 1997 SCHIP legislation was specifically to focus tax dollars on providing health care for impoverished children and teens. Unfortunately the SCHIP program gave flexibility to individual states on what rules they used to dispense that money - means testing was not required to be administered but it should have been - and that's why SCHIP has been abused so much by state officials and the program has moved far away from the original intent. In fact, because of all these abuses and having really poor kids NOT being enrolled in the SCHIP program as was intended, ( 500,000 of them is a lot of poor kids being forgotten) in 08/07 the Dept. of Health put its foot down and stipulated that before states could dole out their SCHIP funds to people beyond 250% of poverty, they would have to FIRST enroll 95% of children below 200% of poverty. What does that tell you? The Frosts got lucky. In Maryland there was no means-testing, assets are not counted, only annual income is considered. It doesn't mean the Frosts deserved to access the funds designated for poor children considering the amount of equity they had. And no one with an iota of common sense would consider a family who owned 2 properties and an SUV etc - a highly appreciated residence - as well as a commercial property valued at $160,000 - to be poor. That's not spin - that's common sense. I'm not smearing anyone. I relate facts. You are the one smearing - and your focus is me because the only way you and your compadres can hope to recover from this giant disaster of a photo op to promote expansion of SCHIP is to blame evil reich wingers and anyone who doesn't wail whoisme about the mess the Frosts brought on themselves. Socialists like you were so so close to pulling off universal health care you could taste it - step 1: just expand SCHIP and buy votes of middle class voters with "we love children" sloganeering step 2: when the Dems get elected, go for the whole 9 yards - VA medicine for all. Yes! How good does it get? But unfortunately the Dem Party hacks did not do their homework very well and they ended up picking a family with considerable assets who made some irresponsible decisions and shazam, step 1 backfired. Back to saving step 1, albeit the photo op picture is now in tatters... Did you know that Dr. Ron Paul (obgyn) voted "no" to re-authorize/expand SCHIP? Is Dr. Ron Paul an evil reichwinger who hates children, too?
My proof of this is the value of their house. You just don't think anyone should ever have to liquidate an asset to take care of more immediate needs.
I keep vowing to drop out of this discussion and then jumping back in - are you saying one should give up their home to pay for possible future, currently non- existing medical needs? lose the home to pay for medical insurance? or are you saying when their children were injured they should have lost their home?
And apparently this also isn't supposed to be pointed out when you allow your children to be used in a partisan radio spot on the topic of medical coverage. Go figure. Thank you for your common sense remarks. Ping to All.
Peter Graves warned against it in a dream...
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
It ain't like there were twelve of them crammed into a 2 room shack. Are you telling me they had to have a 3000+ sq. ft home? Are you saying this family couldn't downsize by 1500 feet and get out from under their house payment?
CHIPS is funded, if not totally by cigarette or tobacco taxes, has a large chunk of it funded by smokers who are NOT children nor the parents of these kids. I know all about insurance having skyrocketed. I know what happened with my insurance. I also know about how people make choices. I know I did when I was a mother with small kids. I lived on popcorn and jello for a week or so in order that my kids got the nutritious foods. BFD.....you do what you have to do--unless of course, you want the nanny state taking care of cradle to grave. I know what the VA system has done to veterans and their families. I read what happens in Canada. I know about the 12 - 20 - 30 million aliens flooding the nation here who use up valuable dollars. I've read about Oregon's only paying for certain things.......the list gets reduced all the time as to what they can afford to do. Get government out of the business and see what happens. Get the illegals out of here and see how costs get handled.......hospitals, doctors, clinics, etc., have to make up the non-payers with payers. And when the feds quit demanding that every insurance policy cover pregnancy or warts on nipples or whatever the hell they demand next, premium rates will go down. Women who have gone through menopause don't need prenancy coverage. If I want mammogram coverage, I can have it included in the policy I buy. If I want mental health care, likewise. What will happen when this universal care comes thru is this.........the interest on the national debt is taken care of first........then there will be this monstrous entitlement.......then there will be nothing left. For sure we won't be starting any wars, cause there would not be a way to fund them. When you have a government that makes it a part of law that you can't import drugs because they are cheaper, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG. And you want this same government to handle YOUR health care? Or your kids? Or grandkids? Thank you for your EXCELLENT post, rowdee. Pinging everyone to read rowdee's insightful post. A voice of wisdom and experience rings through loud and clear! You go, girl!
I thought they bought it for 55k as a rehab, and did the work themselves. they can downsize size-wise but they aren't going to find a much cheaper house, I wouldn't imagine.
You don't think they could have sold a rehabilitated 3040 sq.ft house purchased in 1990 for 55k, for enough to pay cash for a 1500 sq. ft. house in 2003? Are you serious? They could have done that and put cash in their pocket (preferably into a medical rider on their auto policy).
And then they live where? Jesus. I can't deal with the stupidity here anymore. What, do you all have mansions? They sell their house to pay medical bills, and then they LIVE FUCKING WHERE? Idiots. Haters. Thugs.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Pinging everyone to read rowdee's insightful post. A voice of wisdom and experience rings through loud and clear! You go, girl! Yeah, you go, riot grrrrrrls. When you invent a time machine, let me know, you thugs. You have no idea what $45K a year means in a large city. It's near poverty. Were these people on welfare? Nope. You use that against them, claiming they got preference in scholarships. You're a bad person. Not deluded, bad.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
I have had enough. Scrapper is just a nut, and anyone listening to her is crazy too. She's a hatemonger, and I am fed up. This is my last post on this thread. Arguing with Goebbels is senseless.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
You lost. Noted! :)
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Anecdotes are worthless. Did the rest of the Dems vote to tax prescriptions? HAHAHAHA, they did not. So just because one nut did something, don't claim they all did, which is what you did. Unless, of course, you can prove the Dems voted for it. Which is ridiculous.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
They could have done that and put cash in their pocket (preferably into a medical rider on their auto policy). whatever, yeah, of course they could have. we could all cram into the smallest space we can breath in and pour our money into the insurance industry, just in case. I don't want to argue, really - I just feel like there are people who see what could be their 'dream home' with some sweat equity, and they go for it. they could see it as an investment rather than a home, and that's probably more sensible, but less exciting. it's becoming more clear that only the wealthy are entitled to a little excitement, the rest are villians if they veer off the sensible track.
Sorry, I'll put down the fucking machine gun now and let them move. Feel better?
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Where do they live? Ever heard of renting a house or an apartment or condo or townhouse? Geeze.....people do that all the time. Or do you believe people are entitled to own a home just because they want to? Is your name Bobby? That's my stepson's name and you sound so much like him, its eerie. When he got married, immediately Pop and I got a call to give him/them money.....they wanted a bedroom set, a china set, a color tv, and they had just gotten a new car. Hells bells, we had been married a good number of years and didn't have CHINA or a frickin COLOR TV set. But he was 'entitled'.........or so he thought. Damned if he didn't have to learn that if he wanted something he had to find a way to get it--like get a job, so that he could have credit, blah blah blah.
Thugs? ROTFLMAO! The only 'thugs' on this thread is someone demanding that we all go along with feeble gubmint stealing from the citizens to pay for the bad choices others make. Using the full force and effect of the gubmint to force working people to 'fork over' so bad choice makers don't have to 'feel bad' or whatever one wants to say.
Since peyote doesn't grow here in Indiana, next time I feel like tripping my brains out it's your responsibility to see that I'm supplied with requisite materials, ok? Why, you ask? Because I've decided it's too much a burden to attend to my own needs, wants, and desires. If you refuse I'll accuse you of signing my death warrant, and I know how to fake a photocopy!
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I'm talking about in 2003 before they had any medical bills. Let's put it this way: you go down to your State Farm, All State, whatever agent, and ask them how much it would cost to put a medical rider on your auto policy. Come back and tell us all how much, and then we can continue the debate. You probably don't want to do that though because it's not as much fun as name calling.
b. The Frosts also said that they recently have been denied private insurance coverage three times because of pre-existing medical conditions. a. You are into tall grass territory with your latest accusations. I used to think you were better than this, robin. Fyi, I have ZERO association with any reichwing group or blog and I don't belong to any GOP secret forum poster aggitator club. I haven't even looked at Malkin's blog to read what she said or didn't say and I don't listen to fat Pills Limbaugh that's for sure - you otoh seem obsessed with everything they say or write - which seems odd to me frankly. As for attack tactics on other posters here - give me a friggin' break - that's a lie - I admit I frequently use irony, humor to poke fun at silly nonsense but you and Mekons and aristeides have been nothing short of MALICIOUS to me - you 3 have taken turns insulting me left and right in a very mean spirited fashion - calling me unschooled, stupid, evil, dispicable, a mental case, on the Dark Side. The absolute kicker has been the latest whisper campaign you and your compadres have started - that I'm a "mole." As for your unsubstantiated observation that " leading more than one moderate poster here to speculate about your motives." Yes, right, let me guess - those more than one "moderate posters" are you and Mekons4 and aristeides - the 3 Amigos of Bolshevik Utopia Land. Perhaps you think it's been easy to stick to my convictions these past few days with the pack of you trying to bring me to heel with your uncivil tongues but fyi - not that you care - it has not. But I have endured this gang up on one because I know I'm right. And I'm not going to allow myself to be brow beaten to say otherwise. This is a political discussion board to celebrate free and independent thinking and I refuse to be cowed into groupthink The Frosts own their mess due to a series of irresponsible and negligent decisions. The reichwingers' tactics are distasteful but they did not get into the picture until the Frosts came out of the shadows to center stage and in front of the microphone. The Dem Party hacks used this child for a photo op so they are no more "pro-children" than the GOP are. Cynicom and rowdee are right when they say both political parties are looking for an angle to get into power or to stay in power. b. You keep flogging this story about the Frosts being denied insurance because of pre-existing brain injuries as though that's supposed to rehabilitate them into perfect parents who adequately protected their dependents in 2004...it doesn't. This late 2007. If anything this proves how the negligent and irresponsible decisions of Mr. and Mrs Frost in 2004 - by choosing not to establish an HSA and to buy a high deductible catastrophic insurance plan and a medical benefit ryder on their auto insurance - has created difficulties today. This is what happens when you have "other priorities" and you have a family and through caution to the winds. Insurance companies are not going to take on this family of accident victims without charging a high premium - at least initially -to compensate for the projected costs of the long term medical care. They are going to pay a high premium now because of their negligent decision 4 years ago, but they will get insurance.
Yeah, because 1500 sq. ft is such a tiny shack. In fact it ought to be a law that no one has to live in a house under 3000 sq. ft.
If antedotes are 'worthless' why did you bring up your child your daughter {I believe that was on another thread]?
I think it's funny when people call me any of those.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Is it easy to get here in Idaho? Does it grow in cold climes? Or is it manufactured? What do the pharmacists call the stuff?
Since when is a car accident a bad choice? The Frosts have been denied coverage 3 times, because their children have suffered permanent damage from a car accident. Once their children are 65, the govt will take good care of them, until then they must become poor enough to qualify for govt Medicare for the poor; at which point they will no longer be productively working. SCHIPS was created to help families just like the Frosts. A family of 6 on $45K-50K who cannot obtain or afford health insurance. Would you prefer the Frosts turn their children over to the courts? That would certainly cost the taxpayer more and destroy the children's lives. Or they could move to any country in Europe. After what the GOP hate machine has put them through, I wouldn't blame them if they did.
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How should I know, just gimme gimme gimme!
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
It isn't. The bad choice came before the accident when they didn't put a medical care addendum on their auto insurance policy. What's so hard to grasp about that? How can you expect people to make responsible choices like budgeting for auto medical coverage when then are no negative consequences for taking the irresponsible route of letting the taxpayers take the hit? This is the same mentality that leads banks and subprime borrowers to make stupid choices. "The government will bail me out tomorrow, why worry about today?"
I refuse to buy into the emotional issues either side is dredging up, the fact is that I should not be taxed to pay for anyones healthcare, whether they are pathetic little American children, Mexican truck drivers, or Chinese hookers.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
So being in a car accident and being denied health insurance 3 times is irresponsible? Working, paying taxes, trying to start a business, paying your bills for six people is negligent? You really need to try reading some of the obnoxious remarks you've made to the reasonable and moderate posters who tried to help you see this subject from the facts. That you were mistaken as a member of the GOP hate machine by aristeides should tell you how far you have drifted from civil and reasonable discourse.
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That was no guarantee anyway! Insurance companies can decide not renew a policy. And they can deny coverage of certain areas even if you have it. A family of 6 living on $45K cannot pay $1200 a month for health insurance. That was the last quote they had.
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If I may... You are 100% correct in your priorities of how to spend my money once it's taken from me. I'm still arguing that it should not have been taken from me.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I understand this viewpoint up to a point. Consider that we pay taxes to destroy Iraqi families, and to Israel to bomb Gaza and Lebanon. Yes, the system is screwed. If every American over 65 receives Social Security payments and Medicare then children caught between poverty and the ability to obtain and afford health insurance should be eligible too. It's about being part of an advanced civilization, otherwise you will see families like the Frosts begin to fall apart and end up truly in poverty and receiving Medicare - at greater taxpayer expense.
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Robin, c'mon......You get insurance BEFORE the need arises; not after. Whoever heard of a house getting flooded and then running out and buying insurance to cover the damages?
In utopia, it will be better. It will take a lot of planning though, keeping a civilization but not bothering anyone.
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What was no guarantee? Are you telling me State Farm wouldn't sell these people a medical rider on their auto policy in 2003-2004? That's nonsense. A family of 6 living on $45K cannot pay $1200 a month for health insurance. That was the last quote they had. I'm not even talking about full medical insurance. I'm talking about just coverage for car accident injuries and it doesn't cost anywhere near $1200 a month.
Health insurance providers can refuse to renew policies. When the Frosts last checked, coverage for their family of 6 was $1200/month. Well beyond their means. And even if you have health insurance, they can refuse to cover necessary therapy and even life-saving procedures. That's what "Sicko" and "The Rainmaker" were about.
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Well, no, I'd imagine 45-50% of their income is eaten up by the tax monster too. It's only at the extremes of the spectrum that people benefit.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
So can the government. At least I can sue the insurance company for breach of contract.
WHY should the middle class have to self-insure themselves by putting up their entire life's work just in case and then be willing to spend every penny on to bankrubptcy so every big corporation gets their cut..? Do the rich folks do that? Do the politicians do that? I dodn't think so.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition Private health insurance is renewed annually, just like auto insurance. Auto insurance companies can decide not to renew your policy, and so can health insurance companies. The details of their car accident were not revealed to my knowledge, and not germane to the health insurance SHIPS subject. Remember, the Frosts are just one family caught between being ineligible for Medicare and being able to afford or obtain health insurance.
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Utopia? I just want the bastards to quit stealing the beer cans from my recycle box.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
Yes, that's true. But in this case the govt, through SHIPS, came to the rescue, as the Frosts were denied private health insurance 3 times.
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Sign up now for govt homeowners insurance - it's a new bureaucracy called "Katrina Mae". :)
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I agree.
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I'll book my Gulf cruise now then.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
What happened to the good old days when a doctor came to your farm and you paid him with eggs?! I dunno, the system is in many ways corrupt. Saving a family like the Frosts seems like a good way to spend tax money, compared to all the other ways it is usually spent. Ron Paul talks about weaning Americans from nanny govt, but I don't think it will happen entirely ever; even when he is elected.
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Not once you are actually drawing a claim. If you buy $500,000 of auto medical they are on the hook for $500,000 from the claimable incident whether or not you continue your coverage with them. If insurance was like you make it out to be, a homeowner who has his house burn could just not have his insurance policy renewed and he would have to rebuild on his own. Yes they can cancel before any future incidents happen but they still have to pay for the burned down house.
Remember, the Frosts are just one family caught between being ineligible for Medicare and being able to afford or obtain health insurance. As thieving as the gubmint is, and as nasty as the corporatism and bankster inflation cartel is, I can tell you that many, many of those people are living beyond their means. Now they might have to move to a cheap area like Western Tennessee and live in a 1,200 sq. ft house, cut coupons, never eat out, pay cash for used cars, watch a 20 inch TV with no cable (or gasp, no TV at all), no 30 pack of Miller every week, and you might actually have to cook the kids breakfast instead of the 5 dollar box of Fruit Loops, and pack them sandwiches and a Thermos of soup for lunch, but if you aren't already doing those things, you ain't broke enough to get sympathy from me.
Well, if/when the Frosts are that broke they will be fully eligible for some form of Medicare. They are above the poverty line at the moment.
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Where are you coming from? Middle class people - ones whom I know personally and myself included - don't "put up their entire life's work just in case and then be willing to spend every penny on to bankrubptcy so every big corporation gets their cut." The whole point of insurance to protect oneself and one's assets against catastrophic events so as not to go broke. If you are talking about health/auto/propertyinsurance premiums everyone I know pays a monthly premium and that's it. I've never heard of anyone doing what you are suggesting to pay for health/property/auto insurance. The monthly costs are hardly at the horrendus level you imply. Don't you have insurance? You sound like you don't have a handle on premium charges. If you want to protect yourself, your family, and your assets in this nation as well as most Western nations you need insurance. I did not implement the system, I just play by the rules handed down to me through various scrapper generations. The poor typically don't need insurance apart from auto because they don't own property and they get gubment health care. The rich are insured up to the top limits in each category with some type of umbrella insurance on top of everything- if you think Bill Gates, Tony Blair, Angela Merkel have no insurance plans you are deluding yourself.
I ain't talking about the "poverty line". Those things I mentioned are things families should be doing way, way, way above the poverty line. If I hadn't spent so much of my life in rural Michigan, watching the broke asses' cars sit in the bar parking lot three nights a week and seeing them buying a pack of Winstons every morning at the gas station, and the pure garbage food at the grocery store, I would probably have a big liberal heart. But I've lived long among the rural poor, and many ain't really poor, they just suck with money.
Puleeze, robin,,,,,,the world wasn't against these folks. Just the 'evil'
GOPers are. Doncha know, they sacrifice their babies to Molech or is that
Magog.....the first child and the third. The second is kept as a trophy of
their prowess in the bedroom and for appearances sake, at the least. The
last child is always left in some parish.....oops, maybe shouldn't say
that.....left somewhere for use at the Bohemian Grove or some other god-
forsaken place for ritualistic abuse. Or is that to be used for perverts
pleasure. Go ahead and make all/every excuse...all the
wouldas/coulda/shouldas.....it is all hindsight excuses or enabling of the
next batch of bad decision makers. And why are they having 4 kids? Why
isn't gubmint demanding a replacement policy.....we don't have the resources,
neither monetarily or natural, to take care of all these peoples. And what
happened to that car in every garage? The chicken in every pot? Or the
amerikan dream of a house? I think every family should have a cat; why
isn't gubmint taking care of the cat population in that way? Maybe dogs should
be included here, too. I think all kids should be able to wear Jordain Air
shoes, or whatever they're called.....so they don't feel bad to see their
friends in them........should gubmint provide these, too? And I can't help
but laugh......'government-funded'.........where is that damned money tree at?
If everyone was guaranteed a car, we wouldn't have car jackings, or grand
theft auto..and there could be tons of jobs for building these cars. Where's
gubmint on this? I can't wait til the demand for the fast food cops comes
out in force........they are bad for your health, and with health costs what
they are, they have to be made out of toofuu or whatever that crap is. Cows
milk = bad; soy is good. And then what happens when it is decided that
babies with acid reflux problems are too costly to the system; have to be in
it too long; so we just won't cover that expense any more. I believe I
read on one of these threads that the S CHIP (gads, that name is enough to
make one ill) covers to age 26. I guess that is so that those who believe they
are infallible and death or major problems will never affect them and so they
don't get insurance get covered. 26 is a 'kid'? This has all been a dog
and pony show. Just goes along with all this past years' electioneering
gimmicks. The eye is being kept off something...... Its all disjointed
(this response), but what the hell........who cares........its coming; and
there will never be a turning back. If anyone thinks that incrementalism isn't
alive and well had better change their meds. Incrementalism only works when it
is going towards socialism/communism. RIP, amerikan republic.
According to statistics I have read the middle class find $ for eating out and Christmas gift shopping but those are higher priorities than health care insurance. "Almost the entire increase in people without health insurance from 2005 to 2006 took place in families with incomes above $50,000 (median family income is $48,200)...Families with incomes above $50,000 a year account for an improbable 93% of the 2.1 million increase in the uninsured, and now represent 38% of the total uninsured in the United States. Two-thirds of the 2005-2006 increase was actually in families with incomes above $75,000. How far up into the middle class these incomes put someone obviously depends on where they live. In Manhattan, $75,000 a year is not a lot of money (consider that just parking your car, if you are foolish enough to own one, can cost $500 a month). In Topeka, Kansas, however, it’s upper middle class....In 2005, Americans spent about $250 billion out of pocket on health services and had another $190 billion taken out of their paychecks for health insurance premiums. In 2005, we spent a comparable amount, about $440 billion, on Christmas presents and about $470 billion on restaurants and fast food. How important is health coverage for middle and upper middle class households in their mix of spending priorities? ...
Denied BEFORE or AFTER the accident?
comparatively speaking, yes, but multiply a family like the Frosts by 100s of thousands of them. do you want to be responsible for all of them? i don't. no one ever said life is fair. there have been and always will be the haves and have nots. i'm sick of government compelling me to take care of other people's kids. the Frosts chose to have four children. i have one. personal economics was part of my decision to have just one child. what did families do before the nanny state? they took care of their own which, i'm betting for most, extended to neighbors and friends in their respective communities. oh, to go back to the good ol' days.
Eating (or drinking) out, that's a big piss of money away for a lot of folks struggling. I forgot all about the Toys R Us bonanza at Christmas. On one hand I know it's bad decisions that people make and on the other though the Federal Reserve has so destroyed the means and ability to save, that I am understanding of the phenomenon. I don't think the Fed's going anywhere soon, and expanding entitlements will only force the Fed to destroy the currency and savings more leading to a never ending spiral, so heartless is the way it's gotta be for now.
amen
Thank you rowdee and SmokinOps for correcting robin in her sequence of events. If the Frosts had got on a catastrophic health insurance plan and had a medical benefits ryder in their auto insurance plan BEFORE the accident happened, they would have been very nicely covered for the medical services that resulted from the accident. The insurers would not have been able to drop them when the accident happened if they were enrolled before. And with an HSA in place the high deductible insurance premium as of January 2004 ( ie. prior to the accident which occured in December 2004) would not have cost them $1200 per month. The whole purpose of HSA legislation was to make people self-sufficient - take care of the little things out of pocket for young families and have affordable health insurance to pay for the really big things - HSA's are tax deductible - it's a great win/win deal - you pay for the office visits whatever, it's a tax write off, and you get a cheap catastrophic insurance plan that covers catastrophes. The Frosts made a conscious choice in Jan/2004 not take advantage of the avenues that were available which other families used then and now.
And about insurance plans.....he was a small businessman. There are a couple of organizations [one being the National Federation of Independent Businessmen and another is something like National Association of Self Employed], at least, through which he could have obtained policies for his family thru said organizations rather than the local insurance salesman. I won't give 'antedotal' stories cause that is offensive to some, but the organization I was with had numerous options, i.e., size of deductibles, etc., and various family plans. When I signed up, it was just me, but they did quote me family rates, i.e., myself and 2 kids by way of example. I asked them because I had friends I was going to tell about this organization and the insurance. And it was nowhere near the costly figure I've seen tossed out around here.
You really need to try reading some of the obnoxious remarks you've made to the reasonable and moderate posters who tried to help you see this subject from the facts. That you were mistaken as a member of the GOP hate machine by aristeides should tell you how far you have drifted from civil and reasonable discourse. a. They had the financial where-with-all to get proper health and car insurance way before the accident occurred in December 2004. They owned 2 properties and an SUV. Do you own 2 properties? Do you have health insurance? b. Thanks for your lecture about what constitutes "moderate and reasonable" posters in your mind and how "obnoxious" and thick I have been not to see the light from "facts" thatmoderate posters have tried to show me. Golly gee and what a surprise that you think aristeides is moderate. And probably Mekons4 would be another one who fits your definition of moderate and reasonable, no doubt. There has not been any moderation in your uncivil behavior and your gang dump on me right from the get go both with frontal attacks and with back-stabbing tactics behind my back - the latest being propagating innuendo that I'm a "mole"??? - does that sound like temperate and reasonable behavior to you? You 3 have behaved like net bullies, whose noses have been pushed way out of joint because I neither admire the Frost parents for their reckless decisions nor do I believe that universal health care is good. Probably the latter irritates you even more than the former because the 3 of you desperately are promoting socialized medicine for your own personal reasons and I doubt that those reasons have anything to do with what's in the best interest of Americans - universal health care is VA care - and you and your compadres were as outraged as I was with the VA health care system not too long ago so why are you wishing that system for all Americans today? You see for yourself the track record the gubment has re:delivering health care to veterans and seniors and the poor you think it will be suddenly improved and more efficient by adding a couple of hundred million more people to the mix? Also I have pointed out to you 3 the deficiencies of the universal health care in other countries - Canadians are suing their government for unconsciably long delays and no choice of medical service alternatives - in the UK babies are dying because of deficient care and facilities, in France men are dying of prostrate cancer and women of breast cancer at much higher rates than here and still in the face of all these statistics and data I have provided - you march on, talking about the wonders of pre-natal checks for pregnancy. It's always pre-natal pre-natal pre-natal for you. Hello? There's more to health care services than pre-natal visits and I have shown you that in the other areas of health, universal health care is mediocre at best. Socialized medicine is good until you get seriously ill. It's you 3 who are oblivious to "the facts" not me and it has angered you even more that I persist with data that defuses your sweet anecdotal empty comments - "well I lived in the UK for 2 years a long time ago and I did not think it was bad." You call that a "fact?" Then you pull out those life expectancy rates as your ace card and when I provide information that suggests that apples and oranges are being compared, you ignore the information I provide and talk about how illegals and everyone deserve to have pre-natal checks to prevent "basket cases" to be born - you think I should pay attention to that airy fairy nonsensical prattle? You don't have any interest in "facts" - you have relied primarily on gratuitous emotional heart string fudging of details both about universal health care as well as about the Frosts' screwed up decision making. The Frosts made irresponsible decisions in the year BEFORE the accident as well as afterwards when they agreed to let the kid be used as a pawn by the Dem Party machinery - the Frosts are in the mess they are in because of the adult members' foolish choices. That you are blind to this is your problem and your perogative but what makes you think you have the right to treat me as your whipping boy just because I don't share your opinion and hold them on high as some example of wonderful responsible parenting and their situation is all because of the evil reich wingers. Mr and Mrs Frost "own" their choices - no one made those decisions for them and I do not respect or admire them for having taken the courses they did. I'm done wasting my energy talking to you and your 2 pals about the Frosts. And other posters want to move on to other news items.
It's the mindset big swing from far right/REP to far left/DEM. With every far move either way, Americans give up more personal choices, and the government takes them willingly. Look how a few here at 4um have slowly slid toward pure socialism. Where in my "life, liberty and pursuit of happiness" do I have to dig into my pocket to fund public housing, healthcare, transportation, education?
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
I stated quite clearly, more than once on this thread, that they could not afford before and were denied after. But I also pointed out that before long it would have made no difference. That private health insurance companies, like auto insurance companies can refuse to renew policies. And they can refuse certain treatments while you have coverage. That is what "Sicko" and "The Rainmaker" are about. Having two children or one child refused health insurance makes little difference, the entire health care system is bent on making profit by denying claims. Would you prefer they make that families with children who require health care to become wards of the court? Should they just dump them onto the system entire and go on a cruise? No, of course not. That would cost the taxpayer much more and then the GOP hate machine would be correct in sliming them. In countries with universal health care, like all of Europe, there are price caps to prevent price gouging by Big Pharma and hospitals and no one is denied health care. At the link I gave you yesterday shows, per capita, the US spends far more on health care than the best health care in Europe. Americans without health insurance end up in the expensive Emergency Room where the taxpayer picks up the tab. Preventative care is much less expensive. Would you prefer families who are not poor enough or old enough for Medicare and Social Security to become poor enough so they are eligible? That would cost the taxpayer much more. SCHIPS was designed to stop that from happening, to stop working families from dropping below the poverty line where they can no longer pull themselves up. If the Frosts sold all their assets and relocated and found new jobs, that would not solve the health care dilemma they are in. Their two badly injured children would still be without adequate health coverage. That's what the health care system has become in this country and the health insurance companies like it that way.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
No it's not that there are those on 4 that are in favor of socialism..it's that the system we're NOW under which is not Constitutional has brought us to this place.. read what Ron Paul said about the medical system as it is now in his interview posted by Arator.. what he is advocating is what we should have and will have IF he's elected.. but as it stands now.. medical care in this country is nothing more than corporatism .. and many dont have adequate care nor adequate insurance or ANY insurance for that matter..
Yes indeed - deny that claim, spiraling costs of medicine - it's all about profits
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
I never said that what we have now, I like. Its not a freemarket. More and more doctors are completely opting out of HMO's etc. They are able then to provide a much more competive price and care.
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Oh I didnt imply that you did.. I was making a statement regarding youre assertion that some on 4 are defending socialism.. which isnt the case ..what I was saying is that the system we're now under is the problem.. and b/c of that system there are only so many options available.. we cannot have it both ways either we make medical care available to all.. the system is rigged for insurance companies period. Either provide care at the same cost for ALL.. insurance companies are billed for much less than those who pay for their own care.. OR scrap it.
Oh, I agree there. The gov/corps have manipulated the whole system. If I was a practicing doc. I would take no insurance or government programs. Government healthcare is not the answer. Where is America going to come up with at least 150 billion a year to fund this?
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Universal health care would cost America about the same, it's what every other advanced nation in the world has, there are different types. It is not govt provided, it is govt paid, with price caps to prevent gouging and spiraling costs by Big Pharma, etc. Just as every advanced nation in the world has public education, national security, public libraries and public transportation. It's not socialism, it's civilized - a step beyond the Dark Ages.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!
..leave Iraq for one we could well afford it that way.. Drs for the most part have little they can do ..either they accept government payments or go out of business.. people just plain cannot afford out of pocket medical care.. its the facts.. the majority just cant do it.. not because they are irresponsible or because they spend their money on going out to restaurants or the other ridiculous assertions made on this thread..the facts are costs are off the charts.. the average person is majorly fucked if they have any illness that is more than a headcold.
Keep telling yourself that.
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
There is a growing cadre of doctors that are doing just that. The New American magazine recently had an article about this and highlighted several doctors. IIRC, some were using a 'retainer' concept, ie., pay the doctor $100 a month and he takes care of all that ails you--there may be months you don't need any medical, but you still pay the retainer fee, and then again, there could be the operation that he doesn't charge you extra for. Very interesting article; doctors explained how they didn't have to hire extra people to deal with claims forms, etc., and the patients appeared happy.
Ahhh, no. America hasn't even started to pay for Iraq yet. America is still running a 400 billion a year deficit. America owes 9 trillion dollars. Even if we cut, and ran a yearly surplus, we would have to pay back the debt. Foreigners now own around 5 trillion of our debt.
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
Bingo! The system is very bloated with paper pushers because of corp/gov manipulation.
Mark If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower
i think we are ALL in agreement on that. what we're in disagreement on is how to handle it. whatever though, my concern is that everyone here knows they are welcome at 4um to discuss/debate the issue and any other. no one should be made to feel that they aren't. i have plans with friends now and have to go. i just wanted to say express those sentiments. i have enormous respect and affection for y'all, so i hope this can be resolved while i'm gone.
Very interesting article; doctors explained how they didn't have to hire extra people to deal with claims forms, etc., and the patients appeared happy. This is the way to go, imo.
..there is not a damned thing we can do as it is.. being idealistic is not a bad thing..but its not reality, I believe in the Constitution and everything it stands for but we're not living under that system now.. so we have to find a way to make it ..under the present system.. that people can get the care they need.. at a reasonable cost ..whether it be universal health care or whatever for what is happening now.. the rich and the poor get care the middle class is screwed.
Yep. While I don't recall these doctors being in the NA article, this is the type of deal the article was about. IIRC, most of the NA article focused on Kentucky and Tennessee. Another way that a lot of medical could be handled is rather than using the ER, which is expensive, and clogged up, would be to set up store front walk in clinics staffed/manned by physicians aides and/or nurse practicioners. It wouldn't be necessary to have $50 - $75 office visits. And even if it was, that doesn't come anywhere hear what people bitch about the insurance premium costs as being for a month. While we tend to think of ER as for life-saving or trama situations/conditions, it seems like more and more citizens and aliens use it for daily doctors' office type things. And at that, a doctor isn't needed to remove a splinter, or clean wax out of an ear, or burn off a wart, or look at a rash, or swab a throat for culturing, etc. These could be a part of the public health system. The ER big bucks can fund sidewalk clinics or even the mobile vans which are popping up in some cities in ghettos and slums and skid rows. Have some of these staffed by doctors or nurses or technicians as a way to offset the big bucks used to pay for their education. Hell, out here in boondocks, the district's hhs provides shots--they will even send the nurse to your home. We did it one year because Dad was having a hard time walking.....and I'll be doing it again because he is getting hard to even stand up. Yes, things need to be brought back to realistic porportions. Earlier I was looking around on the net, and was reading an article about how good ol' socialized Sweden has found themselves becoming bankrupt due to medical costs; and they've already done a privatization experiment and will be returning their 6 big hospitals over to the private sector--because they do it so much cheaper. It wasn't all that long ago I was reading an article about Sweden, in which it was all 'glowy' about socialized medicine and the free child care. And then you start finding out the little details--they get to tell you where you child will be put or go. Naturally, this brings to mind good ol mother Russia and her idea of she will test the children and decide what professions and/or schooling they will have. And you get a tax table, as best they can compare, and look at all the european nations and their taxes--not just income, whether personal or corporate, but look at the VAT taxes! The article I mentioned reading not all that long ago indicated that Swedes were taxed at about 60%. I do believe it was Diane Feinstein that thought taxes on the sheeple in the range of 90% wouldn't be a bad thing.
If govs would just stop their meddling and "regulating," things could get better.
I wouldn't argue against your statement for nothing. Cheers...
Like Dr.Paul says, "Freedom is popular." And freedom from govs is right at the top of our list. That's why our country was founded, for crying out loud - and look at us now... Cheers up your way.
Many "MIDDLE CLASS" families are struggling to put food on the table, never mind eating out, or paying a thousand dollars each month on health insurance that MIGHT be useful in the future.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
LITBMueller Says:
#2. To: All (#0)
#3. To: robin (#2)
#4. To: aristeides (#0)
On Monday morning, Don Stewart sent an email with the following text...
#5. To: aristeides (#3)
#6. To: Fred Mertz (#4)
When did icwhatudo's posting originate?
#7. To: All (#4)
(Edited)
The "Not So Poor" 12 Year Old Who Rebutted Bush on SCHIP Veto
Multiple, Baltimore Sun ^ | 10-07-07 | self
#8. To: Fred Mertz (#7)
zmulls Says:
#9. To: robin (#2)
#10. To: scrapper2 (#9)
#11. To: scrapper2 (#9)
second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account
#12. To: scrapper2 (#9)
a. Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years?
#13. To: Mekons4, robin, aristeides, Fred Mertz (#12)
It's suddenly a crime to tell your story and support a program that helped you so that it can help others? Because you're in a rather lousy situation, you should have no voice in how our country is run? You're as despicable as Malkin is.
#14. To: scrapper2 (#13)
b. The state of Maryland does not have a means test for getting SCHIP funds. So no the Frosts did not pass a means test and yes they would have failed a means test with the assets they own. You are ill-informed or self-deluded - I'm not sure which - so don't try to pass along untruths to others just because you want to believe in the Frosts.
#15. To: Mekons4 (#14)
You're quoting someone else in most of your tirade.
#16. To: Mekons4 (#14)
They would have failed a means test that doesn't exist? Interesting.
#17. To: scrapper2 (#9)
Are the Frosts not owners of a greatly appreciated home ( let's set aside Bonnie's desire to have more renovations done and the fact that she has concrete counters that are as expensive as granite) on which they could have taken out a second mortgage for $20,0000 to fund a tax deductible Health Savings Account and to buy a high deductible health insurance policy for the past 4 years?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#18. To: aristeides, ALL (#0)
As Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh and the right wing hate machine’s jihad against SCHIP and 12 year old Graeme Frost blows up in their faces, Countdown host Keith Olbermann and Air America Radio’s Rachel Maddow lay out what is without a doubt, the best framing of the latest and reprehensible episode for the Republican Party. Olbermann and Maddow give the GOP and their hordes a brilliant beating, Rachel sums it up perfectly:
#19. To: FormerLurker (#17)
The maximum contribution to a HSA per year for a family is $5,650. Additionally, health insurance, especially high deductable health insurance, doesn't cover pre-existing conditions, at least not for the first year.
#20. To: All (#18)
#21. To: Tauzero (#10)
And that's a dangerous thing to do. For anybody.
#22. To: Zipporah (#20)
As for accusations that bloggers were unfairly attacking a 12-year-old, Ms. Malkin wrote on her blog, “If you don’t want questions, don’t foist these children onto the public stage.”
#23. To: robin (#11)
a. Second mortgages come with a monthly payment, and you are assuming they could find private insurance. With such serious preexisting conditions it is very doubtful the Frosts would find a private health care provider for any price. And if they did, the insurance company probably wouldn't pay for all the necessary therapy. This happened to a middle-class family I know with one autistic child.
#24. To: scrapper2 (#23)
Government intervention has its place. Taking the time to sue a health insurance company often ends up with a dead patient before a positive answer is given. Our nation's current health care system is inadequate and getting worse due to rising unemployment due to offshoring and outsourcing.
#25. To: robin (#24)
COBRA
#26. To: Zipporah (#25)
And who can afford COBRA?
#27. To: scrapper2 (#23)
responsible people buy health insurance policies especially when they head a family with minor dependents - to protevct against catastrophic health eventualities that would drain a family's assets otherwise.
#28. To: kiki (#27)
I think that's a tough decision for many families. if you're reasonably healthy, it seems like a waste of money when you have to do without a lot of other things to pay premiums for insurance that never kicks in cause you never go past your deductible. we currently pay a whole lot more for our daughter's health insurance than we would pay for doctor's visits or medications if we didn't have insurance for her. I'm not sure it's smart. it would be if she was in a horrible accident, but thankfully, year after year she hasn't been; but the other side of the coin is we've spent a lot of money for absolutely no return. hypothetical: someday your child pursues a college scolarship but is turned down because of a lack of extracurricular activities that you couldn't afford because you made health insurance a priority, even though you never got a benefit from it. did you save? when you say "responsible people" I think you need to add "that can afford it"
#29. To: scrapper2 (#28)
#30. To: robin (#24)
a. As was also explained well in the film, "The Rainmaker".
#31. To: scrapper2 (#30)
#32. To: All (#29)
I'd like to use my health premiums this year to remodel my master bathroom but I don't because I know that protecting myself against catastrophes is more important.
#33. To: robin (#31)
I hope you have good mental health insurance, you clearly are in need of it.
#34. To: kiki (#32)
gee, I'd like to have a master bathroom to remodel. but I don't. everything's relative, some can afford choices that others cannot even consider.
#35. To: scrapper2 (#19)
There was no pre-existing condition for the Frost Family in 2003 before the auto accident that I've read of.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#36. To: FormerLurker (#35)
Hell, they could have just sold everything and gone on welfare if they wanted to soak money from the system, as you imply. I'd rather see a working family get the help they need during a difficult period than see a bunch of leaches live off the system on a permanent basis. I'd also rather see American families in need get help from the government than to see that money stuffed into the pockets of Mexican officials, or squandered in a war of adventure to the tune of 100's of billions of dollars per year.
#37. To: Mekons4, scrapper2 (#26)
He's a GOP mole, IMO. I wonder how much he gets paid. As most of you know, the GOP pays people to haunt various political sites to spew the GOP line. He's here an awful lot.
#38. To: aristeides, Mekons4, scrapper2 (#37)
#39. To: aristeides (#3)
#40. To: Mekons4, Scrapper2 (#26)
#41. To: aristeides (#37)
#42. To: ghostdogtxn (#41)
(Edited)
#43. To: aristeides, Mekons4, Scrapper2, christine (#37)
#44. To: aristeides, Scrapper2, Mekons4, c hristine (#42)
#45. To: ghostdogtxn, scrapper2 (#44)
#46. To: FormerLurker, ghostdogtxn, christine, aristeides, robin (#35)
(Edited)
a. The bill authorizing HSA's was first ENACTED in 2003, thus most people wouldn't had been ready to sign up for one until 2004. The accident occured in 2004, thus it would have occured right about the time the Frosts had their first real opportunity to open an HSA...In other words, MAYBE they could have done what you suggest, but they would have struggled to come up with the money at minimum, and there is a distinct possibility that the accident occured BEFORE their first window of opportunity to purchase high deductable insurance and open a HSA.
#47. To: scrapper2 (#46)
Fyi, did you know that the fastest growing segment of uninsured in America are the MIDDLE CLASS ( they must have "other priorities" like eating out and Christmas shopping...)
#48. To: Zipporah (#47)
Did you read the news
This mornin’ when the paper landed in your yard
Do you know their names
Can you play their games
Without losin’ track, and comin’ down a bit too hard… ohhhhh
#49. To: ghostdogtxn, christine, aristeides, Mekons4, robin, Cynicom (#44)
But you know, this is a funny place. Once you get stuck in a position or an opinion, it's hard to back off of it. That's what I meant by "nobody apologizes". I think in this case Scrapper2 jumped to a conclusion and has been fighting a rear-guard action to defend that original leap of faith, and IMO, beyond the point where it's become indefensible.
#50. To: scrapper2 (#49)
#51. To: Zipporah (#47)
know many people who dont have health insurance..middle class and it's not cause they're out spending money on nonsense.. their employers dont offer it.. cause they're 'contractors'.. a way for employers to avoid the expense... and the cost of purchasing health insurance would cause them to not be able to pay for necessities such as rent, car payment, gasoline, food.. it would cut very deep into their pockets.. unfortunately they have to gamble that they wont get ill.. these are people in their late 20s and 30s. We can thank outsourcing for this..
#52. To: scrapper2 (#51)
#53. To: Zipporah (#52)
#54. To: Dakmar (#48)
#55. To: Dakmar (#53)
#56. To: Zipporah (#54)
Share the land....
#57. To: scrapper2 (#49)
But what is unforgiveable in my mind is that the Frost parents let their child be used as a pawn by the Dem Party to promote a political agenda. The Frosts knowingly let their son be USED by political hacks exposing him to public scrutiny. Would you do that to your kid?
#58. To: Zipporah (#55)
#59. To: Dakmar (#58)
#60. To: scrapper2, aristeides, Mekons4, ghostdogtxn, Zipporah (#49)
#61. To: Zipporah (#59)
#62. To: scrapper2 (#51)
Most of the fabled uninsured fall into two categories: people who can afford coverage but choose not to buy it and people who are eligible for government aid but choose not to apply for it.
#63. To: Dakmar (#61)
#64. To: rowdee (#57)
(Edited)
Suddenly 'everyone' is wanting universal health care.
the Medicare prescription drug benefit cost the federal government about $50 billion in fiscal year 2007, according to Brian Riedl, senior budget analyst with the Heritage Foundation. That funding level is about six times what the vetoed SCHIP compromise bill would have cost this fiscal year, according to a Congressional Budget Office estimate (Reilly, Mobile Press-Register, 10/11).
#65. To: Zipporah (#63)
#66. To: Mekons4 (#50)
The spinning continues. When you're on the side of Rushbo, Malkin, Coulter et al, you might want to investigate the facts. What "business" did they own? What was it worth when it was dissolved?
#67. To: robin, rowdee (#64)
Suddenly 'everyone' is wanting universal health care.
#68. To: Dakmar (#67)
#69. To: scrapper2 (#66)
#70. To: robin (#68)
#71. To: Dakmar (#65)
???
#72. To: Dakmar, Zipporah (#70)
#73. To: scrapper2 (#66)
They accessed a fund that was specifically designated to serve impoverished children of indigent families
#74. To: robin (#72)
#75. To: kiki, scrapper2 (#73)
#76. To: Dakmar (#74)
1948 Chevrolet Fleetline "Bomb" from the [www.viejitosoc.com Viejitos Car Club Orange County
#77. To: robin (#76)
#78. To: robin (#64)
#79. To: rowdee (#78)
CHIPS is funded, if not totally by cigarette or tobacco taxes, has a large chunk of it funded by smokers who are NOT children nor the parents of these kids.
#80. To: rowdee (#78)
#81. To: rowdee (#78)
When you have a government that makes it a part of law that you can't import drugs because they are cheaper, THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG.
#82. To: Dakmar (#80)
#83. To: Mekons4, rowdee (#81)
Govt. does not equal Bush/DeLay
#84. To: robin (#60)
You have indeed agreed with and supported the GOP hate machine's fury against one family, you have even copied it. And, you have engaged in many angry posts that often attack the poster, tactics we are familiar with especially when combined with carbon copy GOP hate machine disinfo; leading more than one moderate poster here to speculate about your motives.
#85. To: rowdee (#82)
#86. To: Mekons4 (#81)
#87. To: rowdee (#82)
Sorry--dont post there; seldom even bother to stop by there........
#88. To: Dakmar (#85)
#89. To: scrapper2 (#66)
#90. To: rowdee (#88)
#91. To: SmokinOPs (#89)
when you could have clearly afforded it.
#92. To: Mekons4, All (#69)
(Edited)
Spin, Spin, Spin. They made under $50,000 and the law was that access to SCHIP was limited to 200 percent of the poverty rate, in this case about $56,000 for a family of six. You just don't like facts, you prefer saying they should have bought your fantastical insurance plans. Just try raising 4 kids on $45 K and then explain to me where the $500 a month for insurance comes from.
#93. To: Mekons4 (#91)
And your proof of this is? Nada.
#94. To: SmokinOPs (#93)
My proof of this is the value of their house. You just don't think anyone should ever have to liquidate an asset to take care of more immediate needs.
#95. To: SmokinOPs, All (#89)
Apparently to some here, there aren't supposed to be any negative consequences for not purchasing a personal injury/medical care rider on your auto insurance policy when you could have clearly afforded it.
#96. To: scrapper2, SmokinOPs (#95)
there aren't supposed to be any negative consequences for not purchasing a personal injury/medical care rider on your auto insurance policy when you could have clearly afforded it.
#97. To: kiki (#94)
I keep vowing to drop out of this discussion and then jumping back in - are you saying one should give up their home to pay for possible future, currently non- existing medical needs?
#98. To: rowdee, All (#78)
What the hell question is that? Elderly pay for insurance premiums--comes out of their checks automatically. The feds may have paid $50 billion, but the elderly are making up the difference--they pay for the premiums for the insurance, with few exceptions based on very low incomes. [How this guy has any idea how much they spent for a fiscal year only technically closed 12 days will be interesting to learn, I'm sure].
#99. To: SmokinOPs (#97)
It ain't like there were twelve of them crammed into a 2 room shack. Are you telling me they had to have a 3000+ sq. ft home? Are you saying this family couldn't downsize by 1500 feet and get out from under their house payment?
#100. To: kiki (#99)
I thought they bought it for 55k as a rehab, and did the work themselves. they can downsize size-wise but they aren't going to find a much cheaper house, I wouldn't imagine.
#101. To: SmokinOPs (#93)
My proof of this is the value of their house. You just don't think anyone should ever have to liquidate an asset to take care of more immediate needs.
#102. To: scrapper2 (#98)
Thank you for your EXCELLENT post, rowdee.
#103. To: All (#102)
#104. To: Mekons4 (#103)
This is my last post on this thread.
#105. To: rowdee (#86)
#106. To: SmokinOPs (#100)
You don't think they could have sold a rehabilitated 3040 sq.ft house purchased in 1990 for 55k, for enough to pay cash for a 1500 sq. ft. house in 2003? Are you serious?
#107. To: Mekons4 (#102)
You have no idea what $45K a year means in a large city. It's near poverty.
#108. To: Mekons4 (#101)
#109. To: Mekons4 (#102)
When you invent a time machine, let me know, you thugs.
#110. To: rowdee (#108)
#111. To: Mekons4, scrapper2 (#101)
And then they live where? Jesus. I can't deal with the stupidity here anymore. What, do you all have mansions? They sell their house to pay medical bills, and then they LIVE FUCKING WHERE?
#112. To: robin (#60)
a. You have indeed agreed with and supported the GOP hate machine's fury against one family, you have even copied it. And, you have engaged in many angry posts that often attack the poster, tactics we are familiar with especially when combined with carbon copy GOP hate machine disinfo; leading more than one moderate poster here to speculate about your motives.
#113. To: kiki (#106)
whatever, yeah, of course they could have. we could all cram into the smallest space we can breath in and pour our money into the insurance industry, just in case.
#114. To: Mekons4 (#105)
#115. To: scrapper2, robin, Mekons3, aristeides (#112)
You 3 have taken turns insulting me left and right in a very mean spirited fashion - calling me unschooled, stupid, evil, dispicable, a mental case, on the Dark Side.
#116. To: Dakmar (#110)
#117. To: rowdee (#109)
to pay for the bad choices others make
#118. To: rowdee (#116)
#119. To: robin (#117)
Since when is a car accident a bad choice?
#120. To: robin (#117)
Since when is a car accident a bad choice?
#121. To: scrapper2 (#112)
The Frosts own their mess due to a series of irresponsible and negligent decisions.
#122. To: SmokinOPs (#119)
It isn't. The bad choice came before the accident when they didn't put a medical care addendum on their auto insurance policy. What's so hard to grasp about that?
#123. To: robin (#121)
#124. To: Dakmar (#120)
#125. To: robin (#117)
#126. To: Dakmar (#123)
#127. To: robin (#122)
(Edited)
That was no guarantee anyway! Insurance companies can decide not renew a policy. And they can deny coverage of certain areas even if you have it.
#128. To: rowdee (#125)
#129. To: robin (#124)
It's about being part of an advanced civilization, otherwise you will see families like the Frosts begin to fall apart and end up truly in poverty and receiving Medicare - at greater taxpayer expense.
#130. To: robin (#128)
(Edited)
And even if you have health insurance, they can refuse to cover necessary therapy and even life-saving procedures.
#131. To: scrapper2, robin (#28)
"There is no 'legitimate' Corporation by virtue of it's very legal definition and purpose."
-- IndieTx
#132. To: SmokinOPs (#127)
#133. To: robin (#126)
In utopia, it will be better. It will take a lot of planning though, keeping a civilization but not bothering anyone.
#134. To: SmokinOPs (#130)
#135. To: robin (#132)
#136. To: Dakmar (#129)
It's only at the extremes of the spectrum that people benefit.
#137. To: Dakmar (#135)
#138. To: IndieTX (#131)
#139. To: robin (#132)
Auto insurance companies can decide not to renew your policy, and so can health insurance companies.
#140. To: robin (#132)
(Edited)
The details of their car accident were not revealed to my knowledge, and not germane to the health insurance SHIPS subject.
#141. To: SmokinOPs (#140)
#142. To: IndieTX (#131)
(Edited)
WHY should the middle class have to self-insure themselves by putting up their entire life's work just in case and then be willing to spend every penny on to bankrubptcy so every big corporation gets their cut..? Do the rich folks do that? Do the politicians do that? I dodn't think so.
#143. To: robin (#141)
Well, if/when the Frosts are that broke they will be fully eligible for some form of Medicare. They are above the poverty line at the moment.
#144. To: robin (#128)
#145. To: SmokinOPs (#143)
I ain't talking about the "poverty line". Those things I mentioned are things families should be doing way, way, way above the poverty line.
#146. To: robin (#134)
#147. To: robin (#138)
Saving a family like the Frosts seems like a good way to spend tax money, compared to all the other ways it is usually spent.
#148. To: scrapper2 (#145)
#149. To: rowdee (#144)
#150. To: rowdee, robin, SmokinOps (#146)
Denied BEFORE or AFTER the accident?
#151. To: scrapper2 (#142)
#152. To: robin (#121)
(Edited)
So being in a car accident and being denied health insurance 3 times is irresponsible? Working, paying taxes, trying to start a business, paying your bills for six people is negligent?
#153. To: scrapper2, christine (#152)
#154. To: rowdee, christine (#146)
#155. To: Kamala (#153)
Look how a few here at 4um have slowly slid toward pure socialism.
#156. To: Zipporah (#155)
medical care in this country is nothing more than corporatism .
#157. To: Zipporah (#155)
#158. To: Kamala (#157)
#159. To: Zipporah (#158)
#160. To: Kamala (#159)
#161. To: Kamala (#159)
Government healthcare is not the answer. Where is America going to come up with at least 150 billion a year to fund this?
#162. To: robin (#160)
It's not socialism, it's civilized -
#163. To: Kamala (#159)
#164. To: Zipporah (#161)
(Edited)
leave Iraq for one we could well afford it that way
#165. To: rowdee (#163)
#166. To: robin, kamala, Zipprah, ALL (#156)
Yes indeed - deny that claim, spiraling costs of medicine - it's all about profits
#167. To: rowdee (#163)
The New American magazine recently had an article about this and highlighted several doctors. IIRC, some were using a 'retainer' concept, ie., pay the doctor $100 a month and he takes care of all that ails you--there may be months you don't need any medical, but you still pay the retainer fee, and then again, there could be the operation that he doesn't charge you extra for.
#168. To: Kamala (#164)
(Edited)
#169. To: Zipporah. the thread (#168)
Pre-payment doctors here in Austin - good site -
#170. To: lodwick (#169)
#171. To: rowdee (#170)
Earlier I was looking around on the net, and was reading an article about how good ol' socialized Sweden has found themselves becoming bankrupt due to medical costs; and they've already done a privatization experiment and will be returning their 6 big hospitals over to the private sector--because they do it so much cheaper.
#172. To: lodwick (#171)
If govs would just stop their meddling and "regulating," things could get better.
#173. To: rowdee. freedom lovers (#172)
#174. To: scrapper2 (#46)
Fyi, did you know that the fastest growing segment of uninsured in America are the MIDDLE CLASS ( they must have "other priorities" like eating out and Christmas shopping...)
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#175. To: scrapper2 (#46)
#176. To: scrapper2 (#49)
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