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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 18, 2007
Author: Bible
Post Date: 2007-10-18 13:09:07 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 2542
Comments: 195

I find it curious that so many people have so much faith in men. And, in what men say, and this is esp. true when what the men says flys directly in the face of what they claim to represent/say.

I hold to this firmly; A man is known by his actions, and not by his words.

And this leads me directly to what is wrong with America; the churches. And specifically those churches which claim to be Christian churches. And to the men who serve in those churches, and who know that they lie. After all, such men do, supposedly, read the Bible. Well, they have at least one time in their lives I think it is fair to assume. More than that? Pretty doubtful actually.

So this brings me to the question I posed in the title of this post; Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross?

The only acceptable answer to this comes from the Bible. I assume that everyone who claims to be Christian will agree with this.

My first Bible (that I read extensively) was The King James Study Bible. I have continued to use it, although I have more than a dozen different Bibles now. In the King James;

Galatians 3:13; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED is EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE.

Second witness; "...for it is written ... " ; Deutronomy 22:22; And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him from a tree; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) ...

Now, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but a tree ain't a cross; it is a post. In the Spanish translation of the King James, it is clearer, for they use the term madero, which means board, or, post.

In addition, if you have read anything about the Roman Empire, one of the notable facts about the Romans was their efficiency in killing people. And it is not efficient to use two pieces of wood, i.e., a cross, when a single piece of wood, a post, will suffice. And, in fact, this is how the Romans did hang those who they wished to make examples out of; on a post. (Yeah, yeah, I know; all the movies use crosses. And, your point is?)

There is another point that must be made here; when a man is hung on a post, or, for that matter, if he were to be hung on a cross, with nails, YOU CAN NOT DRIVE THE NAILS THROUGH THE PALMS OF HIS HAND. It will not work, because when the post/cross is lifted up and dropped into the hole prepared for it, the nails will rip out of the hands and the man will drop to the ground. The Romans knew this from, I am sure, experience, and the nails were ALWAYS driven into the wrists of the victim, between the two bones of the arm. This is the only location which offers enough strength to be usuable is such a manner.

The best depiction of Jesus being executed that I have seen is contained in the Watchtower book; What Does The Bible Really Teach? on page 52.

What does this mean: If you are attending a so-called Christian church, which uses the cross as a part of their worship, and protrays Jesus on that cross with nails through the palms of his hand, then you are participating in a deliberate lie. And, you are in a church properly described in Revelations a one of the daughters of the whore of Babylon. (I paraphrase; not going to look it up today.)

Now, let's look at a couple of other Bibles and see what is said;

New American Standard Bible; Galatians 3:13; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is writte, "CUESED IS EVERY ONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --

Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, (23) his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), ...

Pretty good. Not far off, but.... let's take a quick look at another Bible.

Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text (George M. Lamsa's Translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta); Galatians 3:13; Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming accursed for our sakes (for it is writtenm Crused is everyone who hangs on a cross).

OOPS! WOW! Boy, do we need that second witness now!

Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if any man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is crucified on a tree, and thus put to death; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree but you shall bury him the same day (for he who shall revile God shall be crucified), ...

Gotta a problem here, because the second witness does not confirm what was written in Galatians. That means that there is an error in this Bible, and brings into question any quotes taken from it, unless they be confirmed by a second witness. And this problem probably stems from the translator wanting to believe what he had been taught about the cross. And rather than translate directly, he transposed his beliefs into the translation.


I am a Christian; I freely and happily and contentedly proclaim this to be true. Chritianity is NOT a religion; it is a way of life, attempting to follow in the footsteps of The Christ.

As a Christian, I have a responsibility to study His Word, that I not be lead into error. I accept that responsibility. I also accept the responsibility to help others to learn as well, that any errors that I or they hold may be revealed and corrected jointly.

I have stated this before; I ask for correction in anything that I am in error on. And I have been corrected, and I thank those who help me to learn, and, (this is a big one!) change.

I hope you find this post helpful, and that it helps to bring all of us to a wider understanding of what is being, deliberately, done to America, through what is supposed to be His church (people).

Next post, in a day or so; Is Jesus Christ God?

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 125.

#9. To: richard9151 (#0)

Jesus is a fictional character like Hercules and the Bible is nothing but a collection of sun-worship allegories and folklore.

Jesus is the personification of the sun, or the sun anthropomorphized. He's the sun of god, the light of the world, who has risen.

Christianity has its roots in the worship of the heavens. This is why Christians believe that when they die they will go to "heaven" with God's sun.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-10-18   15:50:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Alan Chapman (#9)

Jesus is a fictional character like Hercules and the Bible is nothing but a collection of sun-worship allegories and folklore.

Can you offer any evidence of these allegations? If not, then they are merely opinions.

innieway  posted on  2007-10-18   16:12:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: innieway (#11)

Can you offer any evidence of these allegations? If not, then they are merely opinions.

All of your religious beliefs are OPINIONS.

And that's a FACT.

You worship dogma you've been taught. We worship knowledge, information, and logic. It's a FACT that you cannot prove there is a God or that Jesus ever lived.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   18:47:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Paul Revere (#33)

I think the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is pretty good.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   18:52:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: aristeides (#35) (Edited)

I think the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is pretty good.

You think is right. You don't know, and there is very little evidence he did.

Perhaps you're influenced by your religious beliefs. That's what usually makes people believe religious stories.

From a historical point of view, there is simply no credible evidence.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   18:59:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Paul Revere (#38)

My first three degrees are in Classics (Greek and Latin). I studied a lot of ancient (mostly non-Christian) literature and history. So I'm familiar with documents of the time. And the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is stronger than that for the existence of a lot of ancient persons whose historicity is undoubted.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   19:01:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: aristeides (#39) (Edited)

You have no proof Jesus ever existed, your statement to the contrary notwithstanding. I don't care if the Pope gave you a letter of recommendation, your history is weak, weak, weak.

I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died.

Stop acting like you have a secret stash of historical info. You're bullshitting and calling it part of your education.

I'm not going to recite my curriculum vitae.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   19:11:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Paul Revere (#41)

I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died.

There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Jesus Papyrus.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   19:16:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: aristeides (#42)

There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Matthew and Mark are both based upon another unidentified source, commonly call Q. Mark was written circa 65 BCE, before Matthew, about 30 years after Jesus is said to have died.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   19:21:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Paul Revere (#45)

That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up.

Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-19   9:06:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: aristeides (#51) (Edited)

That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up.

Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data.

You said papyrus discovered showed docs prior to 70 AD.

I replied that we have long known Mark was written around 65 AD, so that's not news.

It's still not news.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-19   11:27:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Paul Revere (#55)

And you think all these stories about the life of a mythical person who never existed were put into circulation at a time when plenty of people were still around who remembered what was going on in Jerusalem, Judaea, and Galilee at the time the mythical person supposedly lived?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   10:15:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: aristeides (#90)

And you think all these stories about the life of a mythical person who never existed were put into circulation at a time when plenty of people were still around who remembered what was going on in Jerusalem, Judaea, and Galilee at the time the mythical person supposedly lived?

Apparently you've never heard of the Mormon religion or Scientology.

You really should check them out. Religions don't need facts.

I hope there was a man like Jesus, who actually repeated the lessons he had learned from other cultures and tried to get his ignorant Hebrew tribesmen to abandon their silly rituals and accept a truly spiritual outlook.

There's no proof. If you believe it, you likely believe it because it is essential to your maintenance of your belief that your religion matters.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   11:31:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Paul Revere (#91)

I do not claim that there is conclusive proof that Jesus existed, merely that the evidence that he existed is as good as it is for many figures of ancient history, and that it is considerably more likely than not that he existed.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   11:43:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: aristeides (#92)

I know. You think if you say your opinion repeatedly, it becomes more than your opinion. It doesn't. YOU THINK Jesus was real, because YOU NEED to believe he was. Accept it.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   11:45:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: Paul Revere (#93)

Whereas you keep saying that, if the existence of Jesus can't be proved beyond a doubt, people should act as if he never existed.

I'm not terribly religious, by the way. I'm trying to judge this matter by the standards of ancient historians.

Did you notice the quote from Michael Grant earlier in this thread?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   13:45:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: aristeides (#95)

(1.) Whereas you keep saying that, if the existence of Jesus can't be proved beyond a doubt, people should act as if he never existed.

(2.) I'm not terribly religious, by the way. I'm trying to judge this matter by the standards of ancient historians.

(3.) Did you notice the quote from Michael Grant earlier in this thread?

1. I've never said that. You should know the difference being something that is proven and something that is speculated. You continue to attempt to recharacterize what I say so that it fits whatever straw man you're trying to erect. While you were getting that classical education, didn't they teach you how to write a sentence without including completely unnecessary commas? There's no comma between "that" and "if."

2. No, you're not trying to judge it by the standards of ancient historians. You're trying to bogart your way past the fact that you have no proof Jesus was ever born, so you believe what you want to believe. And contrary to your statement, you're more than a little bit religious. Just admit that you think of yourself as a Christian, and you believe the story of Jesus because you have faith, not proof.

3. Unlike you, I don't try to prove something that is factual by giving the opinion someone has given which happens to agree with mine. Try logic and facts. They work a lot better than quoting someone whose opinion you think matters.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   15:22:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Paul Revere (#101)

Unlike you, I don't try to prove something that is factual by giving the opinion someone has given which happens to agree with mine. Try logic and facts. They work a lot better than quoting someone whose opinion you think matters.

You claim to be a lawyer, do you not? I think that means being able to judge evidence.

If all ballistics experts were to agree that a bullet was fired by a certain weapon, and you were unable to find a single expert who disagreed, what would you conclude?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   22:05:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: aristeides (#109) (Edited)

You claim to be a lawyer, do you not? I think that means being able to judge evidence.

You claim to be a college graduate, do you not?

You should know how to write better if you are.

I have judged your evidence. You're a typical Bible thumper. I make you for a retired government employee. Post Office? Social Security? HUD?

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   22:52:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: Paul Revere (#114)

I have judged your evidence. You're a typical Bible thumper. I make you for a retired government employee. Post Office? Social Security? HUD?

Oh come on Paul. That's no way to have a discussion. Here at least.

I am excited by the idea to talk about the flaws of of the church, for they are, to me, Legion, and the divergence of what Christ taught and what passes for "christian thinking" by the Newt's of the world.

tom007  posted on  2007-10-21   1:50:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: tom007 (#123) (Edited)

If you want to discuss something of substance, then do so, but keep your chiding to yourself.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-21   2:12:32 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Paul Revere (#124)

Why do you have this unctuous need to smooth discussions, and why do you think I care? If you don't like the way I opine, too bad. I'm not here to satisfy your need for friendly discussions. I'm having a discussion with Ari, your buddy, because he thinks he's an authority on whether Jesus existed. Hold his balls if you must, but don't bother me

Yes, being an asshole makes you right - and if people don't see that, then are stupid. You tell them!

Minerva  posted on  2007-10-21   2:27:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 125.

#127. To: Minerva (#125)

Yes, being an asshole

The facts related to the existence or non-existence of Jesus Christ may be forth coming, the fact that Revere is an arrogant asshole is immediate.

noone222  posted on  2007-10-21 04:52:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 125.

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