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Religion
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Title: Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross?
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Oct 18, 2007
Author: Bible
Post Date: 2007-10-18 13:09:07 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 2814
Comments: 195

I find it curious that so many people have so much faith in men. And, in what men say, and this is esp. true when what the men says flys directly in the face of what they claim to represent/say.

I hold to this firmly; A man is known by his actions, and not by his words.

And this leads me directly to what is wrong with America; the churches. And specifically those churches which claim to be Christian churches. And to the men who serve in those churches, and who know that they lie. After all, such men do, supposedly, read the Bible. Well, they have at least one time in their lives I think it is fair to assume. More than that? Pretty doubtful actually.

So this brings me to the question I posed in the title of this post; Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross?

The only acceptable answer to this comes from the Bible. I assume that everyone who claims to be Christian will agree with this.

My first Bible (that I read extensively) was The King James Study Bible. I have continued to use it, although I have more than a dozen different Bibles now. In the King James;

Galatians 3:13; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED is EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE.

Second witness; "...for it is written ... " ; Deutronomy 22:22; And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him from a tree; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) ...

Now, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but a tree ain't a cross; it is a post. In the Spanish translation of the King James, it is clearer, for they use the term madero, which means board, or, post.

In addition, if you have read anything about the Roman Empire, one of the notable facts about the Romans was their efficiency in killing people. And it is not efficient to use two pieces of wood, i.e., a cross, when a single piece of wood, a post, will suffice. And, in fact, this is how the Romans did hang those who they wished to make examples out of; on a post. (Yeah, yeah, I know; all the movies use crosses. And, your point is?)

There is another point that must be made here; when a man is hung on a post, or, for that matter, if he were to be hung on a cross, with nails, YOU CAN NOT DRIVE THE NAILS THROUGH THE PALMS OF HIS HAND. It will not work, because when the post/cross is lifted up and dropped into the hole prepared for it, the nails will rip out of the hands and the man will drop to the ground. The Romans knew this from, I am sure, experience, and the nails were ALWAYS driven into the wrists of the victim, between the two bones of the arm. This is the only location which offers enough strength to be usuable is such a manner.

The best depiction of Jesus being executed that I have seen is contained in the Watchtower book; What Does The Bible Really Teach? on page 52.

What does this mean: If you are attending a so-called Christian church, which uses the cross as a part of their worship, and protrays Jesus on that cross with nails through the palms of his hand, then you are participating in a deliberate lie. And, you are in a church properly described in Revelations a one of the daughters of the whore of Babylon. (I paraphrase; not going to look it up today.)

Now, let's look at a couple of other Bibles and see what is said;

New American Standard Bible; Galatians 3:13; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is writte, "CUESED IS EVERY ONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" --

Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, (23) his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), ...

Pretty good. Not far off, but.... let's take a quick look at another Bible.

Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text (George M. Lamsa's Translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta); Galatians 3:13; Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming accursed for our sakes (for it is writtenm Crused is everyone who hangs on a cross).

OOPS! WOW! Boy, do we need that second witness now!

Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if any man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is crucified on a tree, and thus put to death; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree but you shall bury him the same day (for he who shall revile God shall be crucified), ...

Gotta a problem here, because the second witness does not confirm what was written in Galatians. That means that there is an error in this Bible, and brings into question any quotes taken from it, unless they be confirmed by a second witness. And this problem probably stems from the translator wanting to believe what he had been taught about the cross. And rather than translate directly, he transposed his beliefs into the translation.


I am a Christian; I freely and happily and contentedly proclaim this to be true. Chritianity is NOT a religion; it is a way of life, attempting to follow in the footsteps of The Christ.

As a Christian, I have a responsibility to study His Word, that I not be lead into error. I accept that responsibility. I also accept the responsibility to help others to learn as well, that any errors that I or they hold may be revealed and corrected jointly.

I have stated this before; I ask for correction in anything that I am in error on. And I have been corrected, and I thank those who help me to learn, and, (this is a big one!) change.

I hope you find this post helpful, and that it helps to bring all of us to a wider understanding of what is being, deliberately, done to America, through what is supposed to be His church (people).

Next post, in a day or so; Is Jesus Christ God?

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 142.

#9. To: richard9151 (#0)

Jesus is a fictional character like Hercules and the Bible is nothing but a collection of sun-worship allegories and folklore.

Jesus is the personification of the sun, or the sun anthropomorphized. He's the sun of god, the light of the world, who has risen.

Christianity has its roots in the worship of the heavens. This is why Christians believe that when they die they will go to "heaven" with God's sun.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-10-18   15:50:50 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Alan Chapman (#9)

Jesus is a fictional character like Hercules and the Bible is nothing but a collection of sun-worship allegories and folklore.

Can you offer any evidence of these allegations? If not, then they are merely opinions.

innieway  posted on  2007-10-18   16:12:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: innieway (#11)

Can you offer any evidence of these allegations? If not, then they are merely opinions.

All of your religious beliefs are OPINIONS.

And that's a FACT.

You worship dogma you've been taught. We worship knowledge, information, and logic. It's a FACT that you cannot prove there is a God or that Jesus ever lived.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   18:47:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Paul Revere (#33)

I think the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is pretty good.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   18:52:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: aristeides (#35) (Edited)

I think the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is pretty good.

You think is right. You don't know, and there is very little evidence he did.

Perhaps you're influenced by your religious beliefs. That's what usually makes people believe religious stories.

From a historical point of view, there is simply no credible evidence.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   18:59:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Paul Revere (#38)

My first three degrees are in Classics (Greek and Latin). I studied a lot of ancient (mostly non-Christian) literature and history. So I'm familiar with documents of the time. And the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is stronger than that for the existence of a lot of ancient persons whose historicity is undoubted.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   19:01:36 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: aristeides (#39) (Edited)

You have no proof Jesus ever existed, your statement to the contrary notwithstanding. I don't care if the Pope gave you a letter of recommendation, your history is weak, weak, weak.

I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died.

Stop acting like you have a secret stash of historical info. You're bullshitting and calling it part of your education.

I'm not going to recite my curriculum vitae.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   19:11:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Paul Revere (#41)

I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died.

There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Jesus Papyrus.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-18   19:16:26 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: aristeides (#42)

There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Matthew and Mark are both based upon another unidentified source, commonly call Q. Mark was written circa 65 BCE, before Matthew, about 30 years after Jesus is said to have died.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-18   19:21:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Paul Revere (#45)

That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up.

Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-19   9:06:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: aristeides (#51) (Edited)

That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up.

Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data.

You said papyrus discovered showed docs prior to 70 AD.

I replied that we have long known Mark was written around 65 AD, so that's not news.

It's still not news.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-19   11:27:07 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: Paul Revere (#55)

And you think all these stories about the life of a mythical person who never existed were put into circulation at a time when plenty of people were still around who remembered what was going on in Jerusalem, Judaea, and Galilee at the time the mythical person supposedly lived?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   10:15:46 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: aristeides (#90)

And you think all these stories about the life of a mythical person who never existed were put into circulation at a time when plenty of people were still around who remembered what was going on in Jerusalem, Judaea, and Galilee at the time the mythical person supposedly lived?

Apparently you've never heard of the Mormon religion or Scientology.

You really should check them out. Religions don't need facts.

I hope there was a man like Jesus, who actually repeated the lessons he had learned from other cultures and tried to get his ignorant Hebrew tribesmen to abandon their silly rituals and accept a truly spiritual outlook.

There's no proof. If you believe it, you likely believe it because it is essential to your maintenance of your belief that your religion matters.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   11:31:49 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Paul Revere (#91)

Apparently you've never heard of the Mormon religion or Scientology.

Are you claiming Joseph Smith did not exist? Are you claiming L. Ron Hubbard did not exist?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-20   22:11:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: all (#110) (Edited)

Some of us prefer not to view our history through the prism of FAITH and Religious Dogma.

Writers who lived during the time Jesus supposedly lived, leaving extensive written historic works, none mentioning Jesus once:

Arrian, Plutarch, Apollonius, Hermogones, Appian, Damis, Aulus Gellius, Appion of Alexandria, Philo Judaeus, Petronius, Juvenal, Quintilian, Silius Italicus, Phlegon, Pausanias, Dio Chrysostom, Favorinus, Seneca, Dion Pruseus, Martial, Lucanus, Statius, Phaedrus, Florus Lucius, Columella, Lysias, Theon of Myrna, Pliny the Elder, Paterculus, Persius, Justus of Tiberius, Epictetus, Ptolemy, Valerius Maximus, Quintius Curtius, Valerius Flaccus, and Pomponius Mela.

Modern writers who do not believe Jesus is a historic figure.

Prof. Arthur Drews of Karlsruhe, Charles F. Dupuis, Robert Taylor, David F. Strauss, Kersey Graves, John M. Robertson, Thomas Whittaker, Robert Arthur Drews, Peter C. A. Jensen, William B. Smith, L. Gordon Rylands, P. L. Couchoud, and John E. Remsburg.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-20   23:16:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: Paul Revere (#117) (Edited)

Prof. Arthur Drews of Karlsruhe, Charles F. Dupuis, Robert Taylor, David F. Strauss, Kersey Graves, John M. Robertson, Thomas Whittaker, Robert Arthur Drews, Peter C. A. Jensen, William B. Smith, L. Gordon Rylands, P. L. Couchoud, and John E. Remsburg.

Never heard of a one of them.

I asked for the name of an ancient historian.

Correction: on consideration, I think I have heard of two of them. L. Gordon Rylands was an early 20th-century papyrologist, if I am not mistaken. And David F. Strauss was a French Biblical scholar of the mid-19th century. So I guess you have established that there have been a few scholars who have adopted your view.

Further correction: David Friedrich Strauss was German, not French. (Renan was the Frenchman I was thinking of.) However, while Strauss denied the divinity of Christ and maintained the miracles in the New Testament are mythical, he did not deny the historical reality of Christ. Far from it. In fact, he seems to have been the first to have written about the "historical Jesus."

I wonder how many of the other people on your list don't belong there.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-21   9:30:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: aristeides (#128)

Ive not been following all of your replies but was the extra-biblical writings of Josephus mentioned? Although I remember reading one of the passages are in question not sure if all are though.

Zipporah  posted on  2007-10-21   9:38:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: Zipporah (#130)

There's controversy about the authenticity of the passage or passages in Josephus (I don't even know enough about the matter to know whether or not there is more than one of them.) A lot of scholars think Josephus mentioned Jesus, but the passage or passages was/were later altered to make them more acceptable to later Christians.

I've never made a study of the matter, so I can't speak authoritatively. (You'd need to know esoteric matters like the manuscript history of the text of Josephus.) It's for that sort of reason that I've been relying on scholarly authorities here, instead of trying to offer opinions of my own.

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-21   9:46:34 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#140. To: aristeides (#132)

There's controversy about the authenticity of the passage or passages in Josephus (I don't even know enough about the matter to know whether or not there is more than one of them.) A lot of scholars think Josephus mentioned Jesus, but the passage or passages was/were later altered to make them more acceptable to later Christians.

About this statement, you are correct.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-21   12:20:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#142. To: Paul Revere (#140)

A lot of scholars think Josephus mentioned Jesus, but the passage or passages was/were later altered to make them more acceptable to later Christians.

About this statement, you are correct.

If Josephus mentioned Jesus, doesn't that imply Jesus existed?

aristeides  posted on  2007-10-21   12:23:55 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


Replies to Comment # 142.

#143. To: aristeides (#142)

If Josephus mentioned Jesus, doesn't that imply Jesus existed?

You can't be that stupid.

Paul Revere  posted on  2007-10-21 12:25:14 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


#150. To: aristeides (#142) (Edited)

A lot of scholars think Josephus mentioned Jesus, but the passage or passages was/were later altered to make them more acceptable to later Christians.

About this statement, you are correct.

=======================================

If Josephus mentioned Jesus, doesn't that imply Jesus existed?

The Pharisees think He existed:

Who Was Jesus? The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this ... www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm :

Who Was Jesus?

The Bible gave a warning about a dangerous, false prophet who would arise to test our faith in G-d. In Deuteronomy 13, G-d describes this false prophet as a member of the Jewish people (v. 2, 7) who would tell true prophecies and would have the power of miracles. G-d Himself would give this false prophet the power to perform miracles and reveal prophecy, but the false prophet would try to seduce the people away from G-d's Law and towards strange gods unknown to Judaism. The purpose would be to test whether we are truly committed to living under the Law, or whether we will be dazzled and fall for the temptation to join a false path to salvation (v. 3-6, 7-8, 11). In this Biblical passage, G-d repeatedly commands the Jews to kill this false prophet, lest the evil spread and destroy many souls.

To be accepted by the people, the false prophet would sometimes pretend to be a righteous Jew who fulfills the Law, but at key moments he would turn against certain details of the Law in order to make the breach (v. 6, 7). This is the reason that verse 1 commands us not to add or subtract any details from the Law, and verse 5 warns us to remain steadfast with all the traditions of the Law.

In Deuteronomy 17, this false prophet is also described as someone who would rebel against the authority of the judges of the Jewish people, and who should be put to death for his rebelliousness (v. 8-13, esp. v. 12). Who are the judges? The highest court in Israel was the Sanhedrin, which was established by Moses (Exodus 18:13-26; Numbers 11:16-29), and which lasted more than 15 centuries. The members of the Sanhedrin were the rabbis known as "Pharisees" (Pirushim, "those with the explanation"). G-d gave permanent authority to these judges to interpret the Law and G-d's Word, and it is a commandment to follow their decisions without turning even slightly to the right or the left (Deut. 17:11). But the false prophet would challenge the authority of the Sanhedrin, thus revealing himself to be an evil man.

In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the "holy ones"; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as "Jesus" fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a "king" (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new "trinity" that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin.

Naturally, Jesus did sometimes pretend to respect the Law, but whenever he thought he could get away with it, he turned right around and broke that same Law. In Matthew 5:17-19, he declared that he came to fulfill the Law, and in Matthew 23:1-3 he defended the authority of the rabbis. But the rest of the time, he rebelled against the Law—thus showing that his occasional words of piety were meant only to hide his evil agenda. The following sins of Jesus are recorded in the "New Testament":

1. Jesus repudiated the laws of kosher food (Mark 7:18-19). [Compare this to the prophet Daniel's strict adherence to kashrus, in Daniel chapter 1.]

2. He repudiated the laws of honoring one's parents, and called on his followers to hate their parents; he also dishonored his own mother (Matthew 10:34-36; Matthew 12:46-50; Luke 14:26).

3. He violated the Sabbath by picking grain, and incited his disciples to do the same (Matthew 12:1-8; Mark 2:23-26).

4. 4) He again violated the Sabbath by healing a man's arm, which was not a matter of saving a life, and he openly defied the rabbis in his total repudiation of the Sabbath (Matthew 12:9-13; Mark 3:1-5). [Compare this to G-d's view of violating the Sabbath, in Numbers 15:32-36, Nehemiah 10:30-32, and dozens of other places throughout the Bible.]

5. Jesus brazenly defied and disobeyed the rabbis of the Sanhedrin, repudiating their authority (This is recorded in many places throughout the New Testament, but look especially at Matthew 23:13-39 and John 8:44-45).

The Talmud (Babylonian edition) records other sins of "Jesus the Nazarene":

1. He and his disciples practiced sorcery and black magic, led Jews astray into idolatry, and were sponsored by foreign, gentile powers for the purpose of subverting Jewish worship (Sanhedrin 43a).

2. He was sexually immoral, worshipped statues of stone (a brick is mentioned), was cut off from the Jewish people for his wickedness, and refused to repent (Sanhedrin 107b; Sotah 47a).

3. He learned witchcraft in Egypt and, to perform miracles, used procedures that involved cutting his flesh—which is also explicitly banned in the Bible (Shabbos 104b).

The false, rebellious message of Jesus has been thoroughly rejected by the vast majority of the Jewish people, as G-d commanded. Unfortunately, however, this same message has brought a terrible darkness upon the world; today, over 1.5 billion gentiles believe in Jesus. These lost souls mistakenly think they have found salvation in Jesus; tragically, they are in for a rude awakening. Truth and eternal life are found directly from G-d, through performing His Law. Any "mediator" only separates man from G-d:

1. "G-d is not a man, who can lie, nor the son of man, who relents... He has not beheld iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen perverseness in Israel" (Numbers 23:19).

2. Speaking prophetically of the Christian church, Moses declared, "For their 'rock' is not like our Rock... Where is their god, in whom they trusted?" (Deut. 32:31, 37).

3. "'See now that I, only I, am He, and there is no god with Me. I kill, and I bring to life; I wound, and I heal, and there is none who can rescue from My Hand...' Sing songs of joy, gentiles, with His people, for He will avenge the blood of His servants, and will take vengeance on His enemies, and will forgive His land and His people" (Deut. 32:39, 43).

4. "I, only I am Hashem (the L-rd), and besides Me there is no savior" (Isaiah 43:11).

5. "I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god... Is there a god besides Me? There is no rock; I do not know any" (Isaiah 44:6).

6. "Israel is saved in Hashem with an eternal salvation... Assemble yourselves and come, come near together, you gentiles who have escaped [the judgment]. (They have no knowledge, those who carry wooden sculptures and who pray to a god that does not save.) Announce and bring near, even take counsel together: Who declared this from ancient times, and announced it from then? Is it not I, Hashem? And there are no other gods beside Me, nor any righteous and saving god other than Me. Turn to Me and be saved, all ends of the earth, for I am G-d and there is none else. By Myself I swore, a righteous word went out of my mouth and it will not be withdrawn, that to Me every knee will bow and every tongue will swear" (Isaiah 45:17, 20-23).

What is the true key to salvation? Those who return to the Law (the Seven Commandments for the Children of Noah, according to the eternal covenant made with Noah in Genesis 9) and who assist the Jewish people (Isaiah 60, 61, 66) will be saved and will participate in the miracles and revelations, including worshipping in the Third Temple, under the kingship of the Messiah. As described in many places, including Jeremiah 16:19-21 and Zechariah 8:20-23, all the old gentile religions of the world will disappear, and their followers will turn to the Jews for spiritual leadership. Until then, Christians are spiritually blinded, and cannot yet understand G-d's wisdom in the Bible.

Ours is the last generation of the era of sin and evil and the first of the Messianic Era. Indeed, for the first time in history, there is a growing consensus of leading rabbis willing to name the man most suited to be the Messiah, and they are agreeing that he is the Lubavitcher Rebbe, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson. The Rebbe is the spiritual leader of our generation, having boldly stirred up controversy over vital issues in which other leaders have remained tragically silent or have even caved in to the growing forces of darkness. He has upheld the Law perfectly and has worked mightily to strengthen the observance of the Law by Jews, as well as the observance of the Noachide Law by gentiles. Through his teaching of chasidus (Jewish mystical teachings, preserved from Moses and Mount Sinai), he has taught the world that G-d is One, the Infinite Who renews creation at every moment. The Rebbe is a direct descendant of King David and has received a true prophecy from G-d that we who are alive in this generation shall be the first in history to see the coming of the true messiah. Many Jews are eagerly anticipating the Rebbe's resurrection from the grave, ready to re-establish the Sanhedrin and anoint the king.

Our job is to finish preparing the way, by announcing the truth and bringing all of mankind back to the Law immediately. Through our divinely mandated efforts, we shall now clear the path for the return of the Garden of Eden and the establishment of the eternal sinless world promised by Isaiah and the other Biblical prophets.

www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

["yeshu" is a derogatory term. Zionist Christians - A Mossad Operation ....Do Zionist Christians Know That The Name Of Jesus Was Changed In Israel?.....Jesus' name in Hebrew had been changed so that it is now an acronym meaning 'Be His Name and Memories Forgotten.' By Reuven Schossen ... www.middleeast.org/forum/fb-public/1/4541.shtml

Jesus' Membrum in the Talmud What did the Jewish priests think of Jesus? This information will supplement Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John -- a must read for serious Christians. www.come-and-hear.com/editor/censorship_2.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-10-21 13:58:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  


End Trace Mode for Comment # 142.

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