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Title: Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross?
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Published: Oct 18, 2007
Author: Bible
Post Date: 2007-10-18 13:09:07 by richard9151
Keywords: None
Views: 2620
Comments: 195
I find it curious that so many people have so much faith in men. And, in what men say, and this is esp. true when what the men says flys directly in the face of what they claim to represent/say. I hold to this firmly; A man is known by his actions, and not by his words. And this leads me directly to what is wrong with America; the churches. And specifically those churches which claim to be Christian churches. And to the men who serve in those churches, and who know that they lie. After all, such men do, supposedly, read the Bible. Well, they have at least one time in their lives I think it is fair to assume. More than that? Pretty doubtful actually. So this brings me to the question I posed in the title of this post; Was Jesus Christ crucified on a cross? The only acceptable answer to this comes from the Bible. I assume that everyone who claims to be Christian will agree with this. My first Bible (that I read extensively) was The King James Study Bible. I have continued to use it, although I have more than a dozen different Bibles now. In the King James; Galatians 3:13; Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, CURSED is EVERYONE THAT HANGETH ON A TREE. Second witness; "...for it is written ... " ; Deutronomy 22:22; And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him from a tree; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shall in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God;) ... Now, this may come as a surprise to many of you, but a tree ain't a cross; it is a post. In the Spanish translation of the King James, it is clearer, for they use the term madero, which means board, or, post. In addition, if you have read anything about the Roman Empire, one of the notable facts about the Romans was their efficiency in killing people. And it is not efficient to use two pieces of wood, i.e., a cross, when a single piece of wood, a post, will suffice. And, in fact, this is how the Romans did hang those who they wished to make examples out of; on a post. (Yeah, yeah, I know; all the movies use crosses. And, your point is?) There is another point that must be made here; when a man is hung on a post, or, for that matter, if he were to be hung on a cross, with nails, YOU CAN NOT DRIVE THE NAILS THROUGH THE PALMS OF HIS HAND. It will not work, because when the post/cross is lifted up and dropped into the hole prepared for it, the nails will rip out of the hands and the man will drop to the ground. The Romans knew this from, I am sure, experience, and the nails were ALWAYS driven into the wrists of the victim, between the two bones of the arm. This is the only location which offers enough strength to be usuable is such a manner. The best depiction of Jesus being executed that I have seen is contained in the Watchtower book; What Does The Bible Really Teach? on page 52. What does this mean: If you are attending a so-called Christian church, which uses the cross as a part of their worship, and protrays Jesus on that cross with nails through the palms of his hand, then you are participating in a deliberate lie. And, you are in a church properly described in Revelations a one of the daughters of the whore of Babylon. (I paraphrase; not going to look it up today.) Now, let's look at a couple of other Bibles and see what is said; New American Standard Bible; Galatians 3:13; Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us -- for it is writte, "CUESED IS EVERY ONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" -- Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if a man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is put to death, and you hang him on a tree, (23) his corpse shall not hang all night on the tree, but you shall surely bury him on the same day (for he who is hanged is accursed of God), ... Pretty good. Not far off, but.... let's take a quick look at another Bible. Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text (George M. Lamsa's Translation from the Aramaic of the Peshitta); Galatians 3:13; Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming accursed for our sakes (for it is writtenm Crused is everyone who hangs on a cross). OOPS! WOW! Boy, do we need that second witness now! Second Witness; Deuteronomy 21:22; And if any man has committed a sin worthy of death, and he is crucified on a tree, and thus put to death; (23) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree but you shall bury him the same day (for he who shall revile God shall be crucified), ... Gotta a problem here, because the second witness does not confirm what was written in Galatians. That means that there is an error in this Bible, and brings into question any quotes taken from it, unless they be confirmed by a second witness. And this problem probably stems from the translator wanting to believe what he had been taught about the cross. And rather than translate directly, he transposed his beliefs into the translation. I am a Christian; I freely and happily and contentedly proclaim this to be true. Chritianity is NOT a religion; it is a way of life, attempting to follow in the footsteps of The Christ. As a Christian, I have a responsibility to study His Word, that I not be lead into error. I accept that responsibility. I also accept the responsibility to help others to learn as well, that any errors that I or they hold may be revealed and corrected jointly. I have stated this before; I ask for correction in anything that I am in error on. And I have been corrected, and I thank those who help me to learn, and, (this is a big one!) change. I hope you find this post helpful, and that it helps to bring all of us to a wider understanding of what is being, deliberately, done to America, through what is supposed to be His church (people). Next post, in a day or so; Is Jesus Christ God?
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#36. To: Alan Chapman (#23)
If you ever do nearly as much reading as I do/have done, then you can mention it. Not until. I started with the Bible long after I read hundreds of books. Found out it was the only place with the information I needed. As to the above; The Bible says, "Our Father who art in heaven," and, "No one gets to the Father except through Him." The first is a prayer, and the second has nothing to do with going to heaven, so what is your point? The last part you got at least partly correct, but you did not go to the correct source, which is Babylon. If you want to understand more, start with the book, The Two Babylons. Then, do a net search for December 25th and the son of god Nimrod Istar. There are several more parts of this as well. The point being that Nimrod is the god mentioned in this search and in most of the religions that follow Babylon, only under different names.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Horus. Jesus. Same stories with variations. The problem with arguing with religious types is they are so ignorant of anything except the echo chamber they live in, and the dogmatized myths that they accept uncritically, no matter how illogical or absurd. If they had ever read any history that wasn't fouled with religious nonsense, they'd know that nothing about the Jesus story is original - particularly not his famous Sermon on the Mount. That's why I don't argue with them any more, just ridicule them like I would a person who believes in the tooth fairy.
You think is right. You don't know, and there is very little evidence he did. Perhaps you're influenced by your religious beliefs. That's what usually makes people believe religious stories. From a historical point of view, there is simply no credible evidence.
My first three degrees are in Classics (Greek and Latin). I studied a lot of ancient (mostly non-Christian) literature and history. So I'm familiar with documents of the time. And the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is stronger than that for the existence of a lot of ancient persons whose historicity is undoubted.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Thank you. You are absolutely correct. It is idolatry. They worship their own versions and interpretations of the Bible. The funniest part is that every generation is CONVINCED that it understands the Bible better than any other before it, and that ITS interpretation is really THE ONE. Such incredible smugness, just the type Jesus routinely scorned.
You have no proof Jesus ever existed, your statement to the contrary notwithstanding. I don't care if the Pope gave you a letter of recommendation, your history is weak, weak, weak. I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died. Stop acting like you have a secret stash of historical info. You're bullshitting and calling it part of your education. I'm not going to recite my curriculum vitae.
There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. The Jesus Papyrus.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Then I'm sure you are familiar with this guy: …if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.[73] - Michael Grant
Matthew and Mark are both based upon another unidentified source, commonly call Q. Mark was written circa 65 BCE, before Matthew, about 30 years after Jesus is said to have died.
This is how religions get started. The difference between a group of mad hatters and a religion is largely time and the aggregate number who follow the beliefs.
Not trying to be facetious, but the words "crucifix" and "crucify" are formed from the root cruc, meaning a cross. (In automotive lingo, a chassis that has an X-shaped support is termed "cruciform".) Had they just nailed Jesus to a post, I think they would have used a different word.
" Junk is the ideal product... the ultimate merchandise. No sales talk necessary. The client will crawl through a sewer and beg to buy." - William S Burroughs
I started with the Bible long after I read hundreds of books. Found out it was the only place with the information I needed. You found out it was the only place with information you needed? How did you find this out? Was it through the power of the holy spirit? The first is a prayer, and the second has nothing to do with going to heaven, so what is your point? You asked me where the Bible says that Christians are going to Heaven. I showed you. What difference does it make what context it's in? Christians believe in Heaven and that they're going there. I've never met a Christian who didn't believe that. Either they read it somewhere or somebody told them. In either case, they blindly believed it. ...you did not go to the correct source, which is Babylon. You need to go further back. Sun mythology and the worship of the heavens predates Babylon and Nimrod.
I appreciate the Jesus story for its inspirational and literary value. If he didn't live and die for his beliefs, he should have. Myth or reality, this song still has meaning for me.
Well at least ya won't have to drag a sleeping bag there.
"Satan / Cheney in "08"
That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up. Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
…if we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus' existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned. ... To sum up, modern critical methods fail to support the Christ myth theory. It has 'again and again been answered and annihilated by first rank scholars.' In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary.[73] - Michael Grant Yes, I've read several books by Michael Grant. I'm glad to see he had the same opinion I do. (I use the past tense because I discover from Wikipedia that he died in 2004.)
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Right, but the NT was written in Corinthian (not Latin) and the word used in Galatians 3:1 is estauromenos. (I may be using aristeides' Greek-German Testament here by Nestle. Luther also says "am Holz" in 3:13.) "O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you". estauromenos is a passive form of stauros. All the definitions of the forms of stauros in my Greek dictionary are (I) stake, pole, pallisade, pale, to fence, and always secondarily (II) cross, to crucify. One might reasonably wonder whether or not this translation was a later emendation on the original meaning, since the cross was not a common Christian symbol until some hundreds of years had passed after the time of Christ.
Gloria est pro petroleo mori.
I'll address the quotation in reverse. First, I will consider it a challenge offered by you and others to prove that there is a God and that Jesus ever lived (though I don't think His name was Jesus Christ). I accept that challenge, and will put together a post in the near future on the subject. (Of necessity, it will take some time to put together a work of sufficient completeness as to be offered as "evidence" or "proof") Second, IF you truly DO "worship" knowledge, information, and logic - then perhaps you will USE those things in your consideration of the "presentation" I put together. I will ping you, Alan, and the others on this thread whom I think you are referring to in the "We" part of your quote when I get my presentation posted. Then the ball will be in your hands. Will you read the presentation I put together with an open mind, or will you just summarily dismiss it as BS before you even give it critical thought? Scripture is fascinating, and it speaks for itself. There is no lack of historical documentation which "backs it up". That is why I think that although you are evidently very intelligent and quite learned - you have never put much if ANY time into serious STUDY of Scripture, and have formed your opinions concerning the subject in the same way religious practitioners formed theirs - by relying on what others "claim" Scripture says without "doing the digging" to find out. Those that do this fall into one of two camps. They either: But PLEASE don't categorize me as being of that first group just because I believe Scripture is correct...
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. Science is supposed to alter its views to cope with conflicting data. You said papyrus discovered showed docs prior to 70 AD. I replied that we have long known Mark was written around 65 AD, so that's not news. It's still not news.
It reminds me of the average American sucking off the teat of government.
You and every other religious person in America thinks he's got it right. This is not news, but evidence of your perfectly formed circle of self delusion. You guys always claim you've really got it figured out. You're blinded by your own dogma. You always think no one has ever read the scriptures the way you have. You believe the scriptures are correct. As far as I'm concerned, you might as be saying you think the Lord of the Rings is a true story and a real place. Accept it. People a lot brighter and more informed than you about history and religion don't buy the theory of the Bible you do. It's not what you believe it is, and it's not the word of God. It's a library of books, many of them stolen from other cultures and religions.
In other words, all the people who use the government's tax exemption to propagate their religious nonsense, or who have faith based programs partially funded by government.
So let's make this short and sweet and quit all the bullshit and beating around the bush. When push comes to shove what you are saying is that anyone who doesn't believe in your interpretation of the Bible is doomed to hell for all eternity. Ok. Thank you very much for that bit of information. It's truly groundbreaking. I've never heard it put this way before. /extreme sarcasm What makes your interpretation any more valid than any other Protestant denominations, or the Catholic interpretation for that matter? Does God talk to you while you sleep? Does he send you e-mails? Just what makes you so righteous that you have the authority to tell anyone what the Bible phrases do and do not mean? Personally I find that to be extremely arrogant and audacious.
What difference does it make what context it's in? It makes all the difference in the world!!! What you quoted from the Bible does NOT say that Christians are going to Heaven - even if they falsely use these verses as a basis for their beliefs. Your attitude of taking Scripture "out of context not mattering" is exactly HOW they came to their erroneous beliefs in the first place. Now you've hit the nail squarely on the head... Also read my reply to PR - #54
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. Yes, among others.
Show me a government program to help someone, and I'll show you a place where scoundrels are sucking the marrow out of the bones of those same people to be helped. It's a boondoggle.
Thank you. This is what I love about modern Christianity in the United States. No matter where you find them, no matter how isolated or ignorant their lives are, each and every one of them is certain that God has his or her church on speed dial. Yeah, God is closer to them than to anyone in the universe, because those 107 people that live in Budafuck, USA and go to the All Gospel Bible Church are hooked into God. You are so jealous God loves them and they are so very special. You should die and burn in hell for eternity.
LOL! You are so jealous God loves them and they are so very special. yes, well I guess it's just a burden I will have to carry. You should die and burn in hell for eternity. Well if the author of this thread is any indication, I'm sure I will.
Amen and pass the gravy!
Jesus wants to burn you for eternity because HE LOVES YOU. Long before George Orwell used the term doublethink, Christians invented it.
Give me that old time religion! Give me that old time school vouchers! Give me that old time 501(c)(3)! It's good enough for me! Your modern church is more worried about their IRS status than any spiritual issue.
And to ensure that we are all on the right path to glory, He has allowed the creation of more than 38000 Protestant denominations worldwide and another half dozen or so Catholic denominations.
I take this reply to mean that you WILL summarily dismiss the "presentation" I spoke of as BS before ever seeing it. Not surprising. BTW, how do you KNOW what "I believe the Bible is"? I think that first and foremost it is a law book, and that the worst thing that ever happened to it was that "religions" got their hands on it - just like the worst thing that ever happened to law was that "lawyers" got their hands on it.
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. i look forward to that.
In other words, all the people who use the government's tax exemption to propagate their religious nonsense, or who have faith based programs partially funded by government. As well as those enrolled in the Social Security ponzy scheme; the various licensing schemes; the Federal Reserve, banking, stock market and related schemes, and the various "welfare" schemes.
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. Right on!!!!! This one we wholeheartedly agree on!
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. Holy books never function well as the law books of a society. That's why, no matter what the religion, people or their rulers institute civil government. The Islamists are walking down that road in a fever of shariah absolutism, and it's not going to end well for them. They are walking into a trap of their own making. The same can be said of our homegrown mullahs.
Gloria est pro petroleo mori.
That may well be, but if that's the case it's because those "holy books" are not authentic as to being inspired by The Creator. That issue is at the heart of the "presentation" I will be putting together.
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. Well, that should be interesting. When do you plan to post his? I want to see the fireworks.
Gloria est pro petroleo mori.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Job 38:31 Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons? What are the morning stars? What are the sons of God? What is the Pleiades, the bands of Orion, and Arcturus with his sons? What is Mazzaroth? It's all very simple if you do a little research and use a little common sense.
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestI get my information from reading. Where do you get yours from, the Bible?
#37. To: Alan Chapman (#23)
The idea of ascending to "Heaven" is a ubiquitous notion in ancient religions predating Christianity by thousands of years. The pyramids in Egypt were built to facilitate the ascension of pharaohs into "Heaven" to join Horus, who was the son of Amen-Ra. The way to the Father was through the Son.
#38. To: aristeides (#35)
(Edited)
I think the evidence that someone named Jesus existed is pretty good.
#39. To: Paul Revere (#38)
#40. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#26)
I agree with you. Biblical literalists are the ultimate idolaters: Bibliolaters. They worship the literal text rather than following the spiritual meaning and teachings. It's not surprising that many Fundies also tend to be Zionists, which is basically idolatry of a piece of land.
#41. To: aristeides (#39)
(Edited)
#42. To: Paul Revere (#41)
I'm familiar with the documents of the time, too, and that's why I know they do not mention Jesus, except for one very dubious reference made at least 30 years after he is alleged to have died.
#43. To: Paul Revere (#34)
#44. To: aristeides (#42)
My first three degrees are in Classics (Greek and Latin). I studied a lot of ancient (mostly non-Christian) literature and history.
#45. To: aristeides (#42)
There are a couple of papyrus fragments of the Gospels of Mark and Matthew that seem to antedate the First Jewish Rebellion and destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
#46. To: Alan Chapman (#43)
Jedi census phenomenon
#47. To: richard9151 (#0)
#48. To: richard9151 (#36)
#49. To: Alan Chapman (#48)
#50. To: Jethro Tull (#19)
I'm especially happy about that lake of fire thing. I was told by a poster never to be mentioned by me that I might be doomed to spend a least a short shift there. I haven't had a decent night's sleep since.
#51. To: Paul Revere (#45)
#52. To: SmokinOPs (#44)
Then I'm sure you are familiar with this guy:
#53. To: Dakmar (#47)
(Edited)
Not trying to be facetious, but the words "crucifix" and "crucify" are formed from the root cruc, meaning a cross. (In automotive lingo, a chassis that has an X-shaped support is termed "cruciform".) Had they just nailed Jesus to a post, I think they would have used a different word.
#54. To: Paul Revere (#33)
We worship knowledge, information, and logic. It's a FACT that you cannot prove there is a God or that Jesus ever lived.
1) Blindly and ignorantly go along with what the religious leaders say like the good little lemmings they are OR:
2) Take the viewpoint you have adopted (which, given the tenacity and ignorance of the first group, it is easier to understand WHY you have that viewpoint)
Steven Wright
#55. To: aristeides (#51)
(Edited)
That is the conventional dating of the gospels, which was developed before these papyrus fragments turned up.
#56. To: Alan Chapman (#25)
Does it remind you of anyone?
#57. To: innieway (#54)
#58. To: Hayek Fan (#56)
It reminds me of the average American sucking off the teat of government.
#59. To: richard9151 (#0)
#60. To: Alan Chapman (#48)
You asked me where the Bible says that Christians are going to Heaven. I showed you. What difference does it make what context it's in?
Christians believe in Heaven and that they're going there. I've never met a Christian who didn't believe that. Either they read it somewhere or somebody told them. In either case, they blindly believed it.
Steven Wright
#61. To: Paul Revere (#58)
In other words, all the people who use the government's tax exemption to propagate their religious nonsense, or who have faith based programs partially funded by government.
#62. To: Hayek Fan (#61)
#63. To: Hayek Fan (#59)
#64. To: Paul Revere (#63)
(Edited)
God is closer to them than to anyone in the universe, because those 107 people that live in Budafuck, USA and go to the All Gospel Bible Church are hooked into God.
#65. To: Paul Revere (#62)
Show me a government program to help someone, and I'll show you a place where scoundrels are sucking the marrow out of the bones of those same people to be helped. It's a boondoggle.
#66. To: Hayek Fan (#64)
#67. To: Hayek Fan (#65)
#68. To: Paul Revere (#66)
Jesus wants to burn you for eternity because HE LOVES YOU.
#69. To: Paul Revere (#57)
Steven Wright
#70. To: innieway (#54)
I accept that challenge, and will put together a post in the near future on the subject.
#71. To: Paul Revere (#58)
It reminds me of the average American sucking off the teat of government.
Steven Wright
#72. To: Paul Revere (#62)
Show me a government program to help someone, and I'll show you a place where scoundrels are sucking the marrow out of the bones of those same people to be helped. It's a boondoggle.
Steven Wright
#73. To: innieway (#69)
BTW, how do you KNOW what "I believe the Bible is"? I think that first and foremost it is a law book, and that the worst thing that ever happened to it was that "religions" got their hands on it -
#74. To: randge (#73)
Holy books never function well as the law books of a society.
Steven Wright
#75. To: innieway (#74)
#76. To: innieway (#60)
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