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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Feds ban grandma's angel ornament on Christmas tree....avoid Jesus in decorations
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58596
Published: Nov 9, 2007
Author: WorldNetDaily
Post Date: 2007-11-13 21:09:51 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Dead Constitution
Views: 1029
Comments: 68

Feds ban grandma's angel ornament on Christmas tree

HUD orders residents to avoid Jesus in decorations

Posted: November 9, 2007

© 2007 http://WorldNetDaily.com

Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development officials have announced a ban on any decorations in HUD housing complexes that mention Jesus or represent religion for the Christmas season, and the American Family Association has responded with a petition drive to overturn the decision.

The AFA has set up a link to allow constituents to send e-mails to the HUD secretary or President Bush expressing their objections to the policy.

The issue arose at the Plant City Living Center in Plant City, Fla., where 85-year-old Mrs. Arnold was told that federal law now prohibits her from displaying anything that references religion – words, decorations and the like – in the common area of her apartment building, a HUD facility.

The grandmother told AFA she was instructed that even an angel decoration would be disallowed by the ban, which makes her think of the restrictions in Germany during World War II.

According to the center, HUD has issued a directive banning "any religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas," which effectively prevents Mrs. Arnold from placing a small Christmas tree outside her door if it contains any religious symbols or words – "even an angel," AFA said in a special alert asking for e-mails.

A spokeswoman at the center who preferred not to give her name told WND the rules now prevent displays "like a manger, like a Christ child, any religious symbols."

"We used to have a sign outside that said, 'Jesus is the reason for the season,' but we can't anymore," she told WND. "We're all very unhappy about that."

The building has about 40 one-bedroom apartments for seniors who are at least 62 years old.

The spokeswoman said she didn't know what would be used for decorations now. "I don't know. We can probably decorate the tree, but we can't put anything on it that symbolizes Christ," she said.

"If the residents want to have a Christmas party in their community room, they cannot call it a Christmas party. The Center says HUD directs residents not to use the word 'Christmas' but to use the word 'holiday,'" the AFA advisory said.

"A Sunday School class from a church near Mrs. Arnold's apartment comes every year to host a Hanging of the Greens and Christmas Party for all the residents. She said the highlight of their Christmas Party comes at the very end of The Hanging of the Greens when someone places the angel on top of their Christmas tree. Their tradition is now banned by the federal government," the AFA said.

The family group noted the federal government has become increasingly active in banning Christianity from the public square, citing the National Park Service's efforts to conceal the words "Laus Deo," which is Latin for "Praise Be to God" at the Washington Monument, and the move by a Veterans Administration official to ban the script of a flag-folding ceremony that mentions "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" at 100 national cemeteries.

However, "both of these were rescinded after AFA supporters sent e-mails to proper authorities," the AFA said. In the case of the Washington Monument dispute, Park Service officials told WND they got 26,000 e-mails in a morning.

WND also reported earlier this week that government officials in Fort Collins, Colo., are considering new regulations for Christmas decorations that appear to ban red and green lights because they are too religious.

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#17. To: innieway (#10)

Probably 4 out of 5 Americans never even heard of those, but those I CAN find in Scripture as Holy Days set for us by the Creator...

4 out of 5? Now THAT'S optimism.

Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org

who knows what evil  posted on  2007-11-14   8:29:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: angle, innieway (#14)

That's right.

They ruined September 11 for celebrating Christ's birth....David Chilton gave a good argument for that being the actual day....I often think that is the reason they chose that day to attack us....revenge.

page 328

THE HOLY WAR 12:3 An added bonus: Sundown on September 11, 3 B. C., was the beginning of Tishri 1 in the Jewish calendar – Rosh Hashanah, the Day of Trumpets! 14 Martin summarizes: “The central theme of the Day of Trumpets is clearly that of enthronement of the great King of kings. This was the general understanding of the day in early Judaism – and it certainly is that of the New Testa- ment. In Revelation 11:15 the seventh angel sounds his ‘last trump’ and the kingdoms of this world become those of Christ. This happens at a time when a woman is seen in heaven with twelve stars around her head and the Sun mid-bodied to her, with the Moon under her feet. This is clearly a New Moon scene for the Day of Trumpets.” 15

3 St. John sees another sign . . . in heaven: a great red Dragon. As he explains in v. 9, the Dragon is none other than “the Serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan,” the enemy of God and His people. St. John reveals him as the power be- hind the imperial thrones of the ancient world that persecuted the Church; for, like the four Beast-empires of Daniel’s proph- ecy, the Dragon has seven heads and ten horns: Daniel’s beasts possessed seven heads among them (the third beast having four), and the fourth beast had ten horns (Dan. 7:3-7). Baby- lon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome were all stages in the Dragon’s attempt to establish his illicit empire over the world. (The significance of the seven heads is thus not simply that the Dragon is hard to kill, but rather that he is identified with the terrible beasts of Daniel’s vision; cf. the “heads” of the Dragon in Ps. 74:13 -15.) He was the great Beast, of which they had been only partial images. It was he who had been the agelong enemy of the people of God. In all Israel’s struggles against Beasts,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-phenomena taking place during the years 3-2 B.C. Chief among these celestial events was the fact that Jupiter, recognized by Jews and Gentiles alike as the “Planet of the Messiah:’ was located in Virgo’s womb and standing still, directly over Bethlehem, on December 25, 2 B. C., when the Child was a little over a year old. (Matthew states that the holy family was settled in a house, not in a stable, by the time the Magi visited [Matt. 2:11]. Moreover, Herod ordered the slaughter of the innocents “from two years old and under, accord- ing to the time which he had ascertained from the Magi” [Matt. 2:16], in- dicating that the Child was no longer a newborn.) For a full account of the as- tronomical events of 3-2 B.c., see Martin, pp. 4-25, 144-77. 14. Ibid., pp. 152ff. 15. Ibid., p. 158. 303

Days of Vengeance

http://www.entrewave.com/freebooks/docs/html/dcdv/dcdv.html [Start at about page 325]

innieway:

Why is it that we don't get all excited about the Feast of Weeks, or Feast of Trumpets? Probably 4 out of 5 Americans never even heard of those, but those I CAN find in Scripture as Holy Days set for us by the Creator...

September 10, 2001 - Moon Occults Saturn

September 12, 2001 - Moon Occults Jupiter

September 17, 2001 - Erev Rosh Hashana - Elul 29

philologos.org/bpr/files/Calendar/5761/12.elul.htm

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   9:10:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#11)

Christians celebrate it as a time to recapture the joy of the birth of their savior, and to be with family and friends, to let bygones be bygones, and to spread good will and cheer and hopes for peace at least ONCE a year.

I understand the concept and I'll readily admit that it is a NICE concept. BUT, that doesn't mean we should be doing it. This may be a poor example, but the concept of "something for nothing" is nice too - but it's no excuse for shoplifting. And it should be known I'm not an advocate of Hanukkah or Chanuka or whatever either. Doing away with one false Holy Day does not mean replacing it with another.

My position is quite simple. We should get back to following what Scripture actually teaches, and forget all these "feel good" concepts (however "nice" they may be). Unless we do (and it appears we WON'T) we cannot expect the Creator or the Messiah to "be there for us".

In Matthew 12:50 we are told by the Messiah For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Just WHAT would the WILL of the Creator be? I would argue that since He told us 22 times in Scripture to "Keep My Commandments" (in those exact words, and many more times we were told to "keep my statutes" etc) He must have deemed it as being very important to HIM. This was summed up quite nicely and simply in John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
I think doing His will might be to do as we are told, and quit being disobedient children. Disobedient children deserve a spanking. Is this a spanking we really want?

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   10:15:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: innieway (#19) (Edited)

Some of my happiest childhood memories revolve around the holidays. Some of my favorite music, including hymns, involves Christmas.

There was a special star and the Three Wise Men thought His birth was a very big deal and something to celebrate.

Why shouldn't we?

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-11-14   10:18:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#18)

September 10, 2001 - Moon Occults Saturn

September 12, 2001 - Moon Occults Jupiter

Sounds like astrology to me... You reckon we knew when the moon occulted saturn or jupiter 3000 years ago, or is this something we've been able to figure out because of the aid of devices like telescopes?

I don't doubt that if one checks for such astrological "events" through many years that there can be found examples of concurrence with Holy Days. But if we avoid astrology and keep the Holy Day for it's own accord as we are told to do, then we are NOT practicing something occult.

Anyhow, what does Scripture teach about practicing astrology? I bet you know.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   10:44:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: robin, innieway (#20)

There was a special star and the Three Wise Men thought His birth was a very big deal and something to celebrate.

Why shouldn't we?

That was one of the things I was going to say....

and then there's this one:

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

He told us to be like him....would He really object to us celebrating His birth as the Prince of Peace who gave us the gift of Eternal Life, by setting aside a time each year for "giving gifts to men"?

You know He said He would catch them in their craftiness, and bring the hidden things of darkness to light. Maybe this is one of His ways. His sheep of Ezekiel 34 were led astray by the hireling shepherds....maybe it was the hireling shepherds who gave us this holiday based on pagan practices for the purpose of catching us in their snare....maybe God is using this holiday to reveal the wolves who have been hiding in sheep's clothing, and turning it back on them....

I KNOW what you are saying is true....I have read the best of the "Santa is Satan" articles, and they are very convincing. However, Christ said He has come to give us life and give it more abundantly, AND He said to OCCUPY until He comes....would He be pleased that we capitulate the time Christians have set aside for remembrance of him [albeit with heathen trappings] to the ones who hate and strive to usurp Him? I'm not so sure.....

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Eph 4:14 That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ:.......

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Eph/Eph004.html#8

Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jer/31/34.html

We should all strive toward what you are saying, Innie, but we are not all there yet.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   10:50:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: who knows what evil (#16)

What??? Are you nuts

Apparently.

Undermining something like Christmas is the type of thing one would expect from someone like a conspiracy theory kook...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   10:51:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: robin (#9)

Where should 85-year-old Mrs. Arnold live? On the streets?

I was thinking that she should move in with you. How do you like that idea?

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-11-14   10:51:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Alan Chapman (#24)

Where should 85-year-old Mrs. Arnold live? On the streets?

I was thinking that she should move in with you. How do you like that idea?

I was thinking we all pool a little money and give her a place to stay. Oh wait, that's what we are already doing.

Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today!

robin  posted on  2007-11-14   10:59:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: robin (#20)

There was a special star and the Three Wise Men thought His birth was a very big deal and something to celebrate.

Why shouldn't we?

Well, I checked it out pretty carefully, and can't seem to find where it became a yearly holiday in Scripture. Can you point out to me where it is? I'm sure I just overlooked it.

These are exactly the type things people and religions use as their justification for doing things which violate Scripture. They don't want their beliefs tested, they are comfortable in them. It feels good. The truth and/or facts may be more than they can handle. So they dig up things for excuses as to why they should NOT change.

Why shouldn't we? Well, perhaps because Christmas practices are pretty well described in Jeremiah 10:3,4 3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
Jeremiah 10:2 says this is the practice of the HEATHEN, and specifically states NOT to do this. Heathen and pagan are synonymous.

Other than that, refer to my previous argument.

I'm really not trying to change anyone's beliefs concerning the matter, even though I know it seems I am. I don't have a problem with people following their religious beliefs; in fact, I feel they have a right to do so unimpeded. All I'm attempting to do is report what Scripture actually teaches, and offer an explanation for why - despite many prayers - we still have wars, so much illness, economic strife, etc...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   11:17:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: robin (#25)

No, that's not what we're already doing. What's happening is that the money is being appropriated from people who work under the threat of going to prison and it's being redistributed to others to whom it does not belong.

There is no need for a welfare-state. Americans donated $260 billion to charity in 2005 and $93 billion to churches.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-11-14   11:33:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: innieway, Itisalmosttoolate (#21)

September 10, 2001 - Moon Occults Saturn

September 12, 2001 - Moon Occults Jupiter

sounds like astrology to me too. [but there is a difference between astronomy, which I think Chilton was basing his interpretation on, and astrology]. Judaism has a lot of astrology in it. My point was to show that September 11, if it indeed was the birth date of Christ, has been taken away for another holocaust [sacrifice by fire] day, and the Day of Trumpets is taken over for the celebration of Hanukah......

speaking of astrology and the occult: back to the Seasons of the MOON - the Tribe of Dan [perhaps the lostest of the Lost Sheep]:

"....There are two views of the world which stand eternally and implacably opposed to each other. One view seeks to place everything in the glare of day. Its understanding is bounded by that which can be dissected on the operating table of science. What cannot be seen does not exist. What cannot be brought into the light is not there. This is a world whose symbol is the sun [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mal/Mal004.html#2 ] that never waxes or wanes. It is always the same unblinking eye of fire. This is the world that wants to murder the night - to turn it into day.

But there is another world - and another people. A people that counts its seasons by the moon. A people who will emerge out of a deep darkness, just like the new moon that seems to renew itself out of a pitch black sky. A people in its darkest hour just before dawn. A people who lifts its gaze above the fluorescent glare of a world that knows no night.

The month of Tevet is the darkest time of the year. Its days are the shortest of the year and its nights the longest. The tribe associated with Tevet is the tribe of Dan. When the Children of Israel traveled and camped in the desert, they encircled the Holy Ark. The tribe of Dan was the most northerly encampment. The North is a dark cold place. The long nights of Tevet are even longer in the North. The Hebrew word for **** North - tzafon - is spelled the same as tzafun - which means **** hidden. ...." [Tribe of Dan KING of the NORTH, perhaps?]

Seasons of the MOON.....

Occult - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The word occult comes from the Latin occultus (clandestine, hidden, secret), referring to "knowledge of the **** hidden". ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult

[Now I find this article more than a little sad....these are lost people, and they do NOT sound happy, just like the Illuminati...it is said about the Illuminati, in the Bloodlines of the Illuminati, that they are not happy people, either. It is also said in Bloodlines that the author believes they may all be related to the tribe of Dan. These people have been intermarrying for a long time, thinking there is something sacred about their DNA. Most of the time I feel like killing them, but then I read stuff like this, and I want to weep.]

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. [just the folks who were promised to Abraham]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/20/9.html

Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever........

Now He could be talking about physical fire, and a physical devouring....or He could have meant something else....or when one finally fails....both.

Remember He would sift Israel through the nations, and refine them through fire....think of all the Christians who have died before us....in order that we might have a reformed faith....and yes, you are arguing for the reformed faith, and I appreciate that....but there's a time and a season for everything.....

"devour"

1) to consume by eating, to eat up, devour

a) of birds

b) of a dragon

c) of a man eating up the little book

2) metaph.

a) to devour i.e. squander, waste: substance

b) to devour i.e. forcibly appropriate: widows' property

c) to strip one of his goods

1) to ruin (by the infliction of injuries)

d) by fire, to devour i.e. to utterly consume, destroy

e) of the consumption of the strength of body and mind by strong emotions

Jer 23:29 [Is] not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer [that] breaketh the rock in pieces?

http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer023.html#29

2Cr 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare [are] not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds;)

2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Jer/23/29.html

Suppose God's plan was, over a long period of time, to raise up a people who would one day do spiritual battle with the heathens, to turn their "wisdom" into naught, [do search on Chabad: it means "wisdom, understanding, and knowledge"....look up "wisdom, understanding, and knowledge" in Genesis.] and he gathered them together in the last days in the beloved city, the New Jerusalem [ http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zec/Zec002.html#4 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa062.html#4 / http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Isa/62/4.html ], to do it.

[I seem to be arguing for you here, with these passages :) ]

Why not turn this thread into a learning experience that shows God's holy word in contrast to all the things He has fought against for 2,000 years to make us His holy people once again?

I'll defend our right to celebrate Christmas to hold off the demand that we celebrate Hanukah, until we all become one in the knowledge of the Lord. You reveal what the Bible says....What DOES it say about the Feast of Trumpets for instance?

Maybe Itisalmosttoolate can put up that great article on Santa Claus...and maybe people will learn from it all, and use it to instruct others. Maybe the Jews/Kings of the earth will learn something as well: www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Isa/Isa052.html#15

I'll turn it over to you for awhile, if you don't mind, I think, because I have two other threads I'd like to post....one is something I've been trying to put together for days now...but more things have come up and are sort of getting in the way.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   12:08:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

According to the center, HUD has issued a directive banning "any religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas," which effectively prevents Mrs. Arnold from placing a small Christmas tree outside her door if it contains any religious symbols or words – "even an angel," AFA said in a special alert asking for e-mails.

This under a Republican administration.

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:09:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: innieway (#26)

Christmas practices are pretty well described in Jeremiah 10:3,4 3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. Jeremiah 10:2 says this is the practice of the HEATHEN, and specifically states NOT to do this. Heathen and pagan are synonymous.

Actually, innie, I don't think that refers to the Christmas tree, although the Noahides use it in their argument against Christians and Christmas; I think that refers to carving "gods"/idols of wood :

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer010.html#top

Matthew Henry:

I. A solemn charge given to the people of God not to conform themselves to the ways and customs of the heathen. Let the house of Israel hear and receive this word from the God of Israel: "Learn not the way of the heathen, do not approve of it, no, nor think indifferently concerning it, much less imitate it or accustom yourselves to it. Let not any of their customs steal in among you (as they are apt to do insensibly) nor mingle themselves with your religion.’’ Note, It ill becomes those that are taught of God to learn the way of the heathen, and to think of worshipping the true God with such rites and ceremonies as they used in the worship of their false gods. See Deu. 12:29–31. It was the way of the heathen to worship the host of heaven, the sun, moon, and stars; to them they gave divine honours, and from them they expected divine favours, and therefore, according as the signs of heaven were, whether they were auspicious or ominous, they thought themselves countenanced or discountenanced by their deities, which made them observe those signs, the eclipses of the sun and moon, the conjunctions and oppositions of the planets, and all the unusual phenomena of the celestial globe, with a great deal of anxiety and trembling. Business was stopped if any thing occurred that was thought to bode ill; if it did but thunder on their left hand, they were almost as if they had been thunderstruck. Now God would not have his people to be dismayed at the signs of heaven, to reverence the stars as deities, nor to frighten themselves with any prognostications grounded upon them. Let them fear the God of heaven, and keep up a reverence of his providence, and then they need not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the stars in their courses fight not against any that are at peace with God. The heathen are dismayed at these signs, for they know no better; but let not the house of Israel, that are taught of God, be so.

II. Divers good reasons given to enforce this charge.

1. The way of the heathen is very ridiculous and absurd, and is condemned even by the dictates of right reason, v. 3. The statutes and ordinances of the heathen are vanity itself; they cannot stand the test of a rational disquisition. This is again and again insisted upon here, as it was by Isaiah. The Chaldeans valued themselves upon their wisdom, in which they thought that they excelled all their neighbours; but the prophet here shows that they, and all others that worshipped idols and expected help and relief from them, were brutish and sottish, and had not common sense. (1.) Consider what the idol is that is worshipped. It was a tree cut out of the forest originally. It was fitted up by the hands of the workman, squared, and sawed, and worked into shape; see Isa. 44:12, etc. But, after all, it was but the stock of a tree, fitter to make a gate-post of than any thing else. But, to hide the wood, they deck it with silver and gold, they gild or lacquer it, or they deck it with gold and silver lace, or cloth of tissue. They fasten it to its place, which they themselves have assigned it, with nails and hammers, that it fall not, nor be thrown down, nor stolen away, v. 4. The image is made straight enough, and it cannot be denied but that the workman did his part, for it is upright as the palm-tree (v. 5); it looks stately, and stands up as if it were going to speak to you, but it cannot speak; it is a poor dumb creature; nor can it take one step towards your relief. If there be any occasion for it to shift its place, it must be carried in procession, for it cannot go. Very fitly does the admonition come in here, "Be not afraid of them, any more than of the signs of heaven; be not afraid of incurring their displeasure, for they can do no evil; be not afraid of forfeiting their favour, for neither is it in them to do good. If you think to mend the matter by mending the materials of which the idol is made, you deceive yourselves. Idols of gold and silver are an unworthy to be worshipped as wooden gods. The stock is a doctrine of vanities, v. 8. It teaches lies, teaches lies concerning God. It is an instruction of vanities; it is wood.’’ It is probable that the idols of gold and silver had wood underneath for the substratum, and then silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, imported from beyond sea, and gold from Uphaz, or Phaz, which is sometimes rendered the fine or pure gold, Ps. 21:3. A great deal of art is used, and pains taken, about it. They are not such ordinary mechanics that are employed about these as about the wooden gods, v. 3. these are cunning men; it is the work of the workman; the graver must do his part when it has passed through the hands of the founder. Those were but decked here and there with silver and gold; these are silver and gold all over. And, that these gods might be reverenced as kings, blue and purple are their clothing, the colour of royal robes (v. 9), which amuses ignorant worshippers, but makes the matter no better. For what is the idol when it is made and when they have made the best they can of it? He tells us (v. 14): They are falsehood; they are not what they pretend to be, but a great cheat put upon the world. They are worshipped as the gods that give us breath and life and sense, whereas they are lifeless senseless things themselves, and there is no breath in them; there is no spirit in them (so the word is); they are not animated, or inhabited, as they are supposed to be, by any divine spirit or numen—divinity. They are so far from being gods that they have not so much as the spirit of a beast that goes downward. They are vanity, and the work of errors, v. 15. Enquire into the use of them and you will find they are vanity; they are good for nothing; no help is to be expected from them nor any confidence put in them. They are a deceitful work, works of illusions, or mere mockeries; so some read the following clause. They delude those that put their trust in them, make fools of them, or, rather, they make fools of themselves. Enquire into the use of them and you will find they are the work of errors, grounded upon the grossest mistakes that ever men who pretended to reason were guilty of. They are the creatures of a deluded fancy; and the errors by which they were produced they propagate among their worshippers. (2.) Infer hence what the idolaters are that worship these idols. (v. 8): They are altogether brutish and foolish. Those that make them are like unto them, senseless and stupid, and there is no spirit in them—no use of reason, else they would never stoop to them, v. 14. Every man that makes or worships idols has become brutish in his knowledge, that is, brutish for want of knowledge, or brutish in that very thing which one would think they should be fully acquainted with; compare Jude 10, What they know naturally, what they cannot but know by the light of nature, in those things as brute beasts they corrupt themselves. Though in the works of creation they cannot but see the eternal power and godhead of the Creator, yet they have become vain in their imaginations, not liking to retain God in their knowledge. See Rom. 1:21, 18. Nay, whereas they thought it a piece of wisdom thus to multiply gods, it really was the greatest folly they could be guilty of. The world by wisdom knew not God, 1 Co. 1:21; Rom. 1:22. Every founder is himself confounded by the graven image; when he has made it by a mistake he is more and more confirmed in his mistake by it; he is bewildered, bewitched, and cannot disentangle himself from the snare; or it is what he will one time or other be ashamed of.

www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Jer/Jer010.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   12:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: iconoclast (#29) (Edited)

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

yikes...someone should dig up some [old] articles on that abomination known as the CLINTON 'Christmas' tree!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   12:27:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: innieway (#26)

Well, I checked it out pretty carefully, and can't seem to find where it became a yearly holiday in Scripture. Can you point out to me where it is? I'm sure I just overlooked it.

Well, I guess we eeevil Catholics need to assume some responsibility for this "odious" joyful, reverent, awesome celebration of remembrance .... the root of the word Christmas is Christ's Mass after all. It's a tradition we treasure.

For those that prefer to sit in a cold room and flip through scripture for justification of their "bah, humbug" attitude, more power to you. You have the same benefits of the free exercise clause of the first amendment as we.

Didn't the Pilgrims and Puritans choose not to observe a celebration of Christ's birth, too? Wow, they were a notably fun bunch.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:40:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#31)

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

yikes...someone should dig up some [old] articles on that abomination known as the CLINTON 'Christmas' tree!

I believe those articles originated from the embarrassingly revealing book by Gary Aldrich.

www.freerepublic.com/ focus/news/812710/posts

Rest assured it will get some renewed attention once we get closer to election day.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#28)

You reveal what the Bible says....

That was all I was trying to do regarding the topic of the thread - ie Christmas. Other than that, we're talking about a very BIG project. HOWEVER, I AM working on just such a project (or close - I took on what I considered to be a "challenge" on another thread way back on the validity of Scripture - and which has been coming along much slower than anticipated because of an unforeseen work load). I had every intention of pinging you to it once I post it, as I felt you would be interested. It will be a work of magnitude such that I will be posting it in several "parts".

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th month on the first day of the month, in which we are to do no servile work, and which we are to keep unto all our generations.(This becomes quite complicated in figuring out if one considers that the Hebrew calendar does not coincide with the Gregorian calendar we use today. I'm still trying to ascertain just HOW important this is - but I DO know that the Gregorian calendar involved a "changing of times" which is also prophesied to happen, therefore leading me to think it IS important. But no matter which calendar one uses, it must be remembered that this "changing of times" involved making January the first month as opposed to April which was the first month under God's mandate. Therefore, by the Gregorian calendar the seventh month would be October...)

Much of the possible commentary which I could make on this thread are things which I will be addressing in the future article I mentioned. While I DO feel it's important, perhaps I should just leave it at this for now...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   13:26:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: innieway (#10)

WHERE in Scripture is Christmas ever pronounced as a Holy Day (holiday) in the first place? What does God have to say about it?

If Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible then where did you hear God condemn it?

Did he whisper it in your ear? Are you a member of the holy church of Bush-ear- whispered-messages?

You're as determinedly ignorant as my beloved Uncle who attempted to alarm me by stating, "do you know that the Catholic Church is the only one not mentioned in the Bible?" I didn't laugh in his face, I loved him too much.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   13:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: innieway (#10)

Oh, c'mon, innieway.......that's just ol' scripture stuff!! :) Eat, drink, and be merry........they're 'all' doing it, so why can't we? Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   13:33:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: innieway (#34)

Even if you feel that your sola scriptura interpretation is the correct one, there is nothing the government can or should do about somebody else who wishes to celebrate Christmas or hang angel ornaments. Nor if somebody wants to worship and celebrate Dionysus, Odin, or no god or gods at all. Separation of Church and State means that the government stays out of religion - neither promoting nor stifling it.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2007-11-14   13:36:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: rowdee (#36)

Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

Turn off your TV and come on over to my Church.

You'll never have to listen to their nonsense again.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   13:43:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: innieway (#30)

before i go, speaking of all that.....a little off-topic, but related.....

"Gog and Magog

Towards the head of the procession you will see two stern but benevolent wicker giants. They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London, and they have been carried in the Lord Mayor’s Show since the reign of Henry V....."

"...The statues of Gog and Magog currently standing in the Guildhall were commissioned from sculptor David Evans by Alderman Sir George Wilkinson, who was Lord Mayor when the previous versions were destroyed in the Blitz. The phoenix shield tells us that this is Magog......."

http://www.lordmayorsshow.org/visitors/history/gogmagog

DEATH OF THE PHOENIX

"... SCENE III. The United States

Enter The Phoenix.....

"...the “phoenix” would seem to have prophetic implications for the United States in terms of the Judeo-Masonic Plan. Those poor Pilgrims who brought Christianity to the New World in the early 1600s were soon co-opted by the wealthy Judeo-Freemasons who engineered the American Revolution. This cabal of aristocratic revolutionaries established a government that was independent of the Old World and based wholly on Judeo-Masonic principles. In the new Masonic government, members of the Roman Catholic Church, which had suppressed the Jewish Templars in Europe, were even barred from holding public office. After the Masonic takeover of America in 1776, the Judeo-Freemasons would hold the reigns of the government of the United States and determine its destiny, rather than Christians. The post-revolutionary “Legend of Sleepy Hollow” was a tribute to the Masonic victory (Brom Bones) over the Christian influence (Ichabod Crane) in the United States as well as a prophetic narrative of things to come—when the “Headless Horseman” would conduct another midnight ride through the United States of America......

In 1856, the American poet Walt Whitman wrote to his fellow Freemason, Ralph Waldo Emerson, that the United States is a “work in progress” which would have to die for the Judeo-Masonic Plan of world conquest, and a New World Order, to come into being:

“America, having duly conceived, bears out of herself offspring of her own to do the workmanship wanted. To freedom, to strength, to poems, to personal greatness, it is never permitted to rest, not a generation or part of a generation. To be ripe beyond further increase is to prepare to die. The architects of These States laid their foundations, and passed to further, spheres. What they laid is a work done; as much more remains. Now are needed other architects, whose duty is not less difficult, but perhaps more difficult. Each age forever needs architects. America is not finished, perhaps never will be; now America is a divine true sketch. There are Thirty-Two States sketched—the population thirty millions. In a few years there will be Fifty States. Again in a few years there will be A Hundred States, the population hundreds of millions, the freshest and freest of men. Of course such men stand to nothing less than the freshest and freest expression.” (Leaves of Grass, 1856)

The Great Seal of the United States, which is displayed on the back of the

dollar bill, is evidence that the United States was predestined by its Judeo-Masonic founders to self-destruct. For the Eagle which adorns the Seal was originally a Phoenix, the occult symbol of self-immolation:

“The hand of the Mysteries controlled the establishment of the United States Government and the signature of the Mysteries may still be seen on the Great Seal of the United States of America. The Seal discloses a mass of Masonic symbols, chiefly amongst them the American Eagle, which is a conventionalized phoenix. The U S Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter said ‘The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise power from behind the scenes .’” - G. Kumar

[Note: Felix Frankfurter was Jewish, a Zionist and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.]

The Phoenix is a mythical bird which lives for five hundred years, then burns itself on a funeral pyre and rises from the ashes as a lowly worm that becomes a bird once more. It is said to gather incense for its own bier, to lie down amidst the flames of the pyre, and then to be reborn from the ashes. The Phoenix was also a symbol of the mythical Egyptian Sun god, Osiris, which is the soul of Orion, the headless god and archetype of the Headless Horseman in “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow”...."

http://www.watch.pair.com/death-phoenix.html

The phoenix is a substitute for the eagle, which is a substitute for the serpent. See Lost Tribe of Dan:

".... The 6-Pointed Star consisting of 13 stars represents the "Star of David" which is really the Seal of Solomon, a pagan symbol which will be the Mark of the Beast in Rev. 13:16.

The emblem of the Eagle was substituted for the Serpent by the Tribe of Dan, from which the False Messiah will come:

"Dan's position in the journey was on the North of the Tabernacle, with Asher and Naphtali. The standard of the tribe was of white and red and the crest upon it an eagle. . .Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent. Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents, as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag." [Unger's Bible Dictionary, p. 273]

*

The 13 arrows in the left claw of the Eagle represent the 13 tribes of Israel fomenting wars and revolutions throughout the world. *

In its right claw, the Eagle carries an Olive Branch which has 13 leaves. The Olive Tree represents the House of Israel and House of Judah (Is. 17:6, 23:14, Jer.11:16, Rom. 11). The 13 leaves represent the 13 tribes of Israel and Judah.

Thus the numerous "13s" found in the Great Seal, as identified by Manly P. Hall, really represent the 13 tribes of Israel, although Hall would never divulge that very esoteric interpretation. The reason for the omission is found in Fritz Springmeier's book, The Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines, which briefly mentions that Marie Bauer Hall was the wife of Manly P. Hall:

"... Manly P. Hall whose wife was a Bauer (very likely part of the Rothschild bloodline.)" (p.43)

Based on this new information, which has been withheld from the Gentile world, it becomes apparent that the Great Seal of the United States reveals in a symbolic code the quest of the Zionist Jews to return to and conquer the Holy Land which God originally gave them, but which they forfeited through their rejection of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ. Moreover, the Great Seal reveals that they are using the United States of America and to reestablish the kingdom of Israel from which their Antichrist, a descendant of King Solomon, will rule the world.

A timeline of this Zionist conspiracy is presented in our report, Heeding Bible Prophecy: New Israel. The Judeo-Masonic Plan for the final stages of the Zionist conspiracy is the subject of another report, Death of the Phoenix: Final Act for the United States of America......."

THE MASONIC FOUNDATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=65060

Again:

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. [just like the folks who were promised to Abraham]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/20/9.html

I also relate this to the battle of the two eagles in Ezekiel 17, the first eagle being God/Jesus Christ. I've read the explanations for what this is supposed to represent, but it is a parable for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and the House of Israel never went to Babylon [they went to Assyria]. However, the "House of Israel" is the church, now, and I believe America is the New Israel/New Jerusalem, and Jerusalem DOES "go to Babylon" in the "last days" [end of the age]. I think this chapter relates far more to what has happened to America, than any other time period...double prophecy perhaps.....history that was not available to people like Matthew Henry, who wrote about two hundred years ago.

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#10 [I believe that Micah 4 is another chapter that prophesies of America].

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zec/Zec002.html#7 [the Babylon referred to here, as I said over here freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=64640 , is, I believe, the Old Jerusalem, and Zion in this verse is the New Jerusalem spoken of in Zechariah, verse 2.

The daughter of the faithful Zion, is dwelling with the daughter of the apostate Zion here in America for the final battle. This battle over Christmas is all part of it.

================================================

if you're still there, don't go away, i want to comment on your last post.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   14:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: innieway (#34)

I took on what I considered to be a "challenge" on another thread way back on the validity of Scripture - and which has been coming along much slower than anticipated because of an unforeseen work load).

oh, boy...do i know how THAT goes!

I had every intention of pinging you to it once I post it, as I felt you would be interested. It will be a work of magnitude such that I will be posting it in several "parts".

e-mail me, please.

What DOES it say about the Feast of Trumpets for instance?

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th month on the first day of the month,

EVERY month??

This becomes quite complicated in figuring out if one considers that the Hebrew calendar does not coincide with the Gregorian calendar we use today. I'm still trying to ascertain just HOW important this is - but I DO know that the Gregorian calendar involved a "changing of times" which is also prophesied to happen, therefore leading me to think it IS important. But no matter which calendar one uses, it must be remembered that this "changing of times" involved making January the first month as opposed to April which was the first month under God's mandate. Therefore, by the Gregorian calendar the seventh month would be October...)

I am VERY interested in that. Just wrote down a little blip on that this morning, because it led me to think I may have made a miscalculation on that subject regarding another passage in the Bible. Here's that passage I had occasion to note this morning:

The Washington family Bible records, "George Washington Son to Augustine & Mary his Wife was born the 11th Day of February 1731/2 about 10 in the Morning." The old style calendar entry of 11 February 1731/32 became obsolete in 1752 when the British corrected their calendar by adding eleven days, making Washington's birth date under the new style 22 February 1732. His birthday was celebrated on both days during his lifetime.

chnm.gmu.edu/courses/henriques/hist615/gwnpsbio.htm

Wikipedia has [or had, at least] a lot of info on this [conversion from the Julian to Gregorian (?)], and a conversion chart, and I thought I had it figured it out for that date I was contemplating, but now I'm not so sure. I would have guessed Washington's birth year at 1731 rather than 1732, and I thought it was ten days, not eleven.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:11:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: innieway (#40)

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th on the first day of the month,

EVERY month??

...never mind...caught it...hit forehead.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:18:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: iconoclast (#33)

Rest assured it will get some renewed attention once we get closer to election day.

I certainly hope so.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: iconoclast (#32)

Well, I guess we eeevil Catholics need to assume some responsibility for this "odious" joyful, reverent, awesome celebration of remembrance .... the root of the word Christmas is Christ's Mass after all. It's a tradition we treasure.

I knew I was going to light some fireworks.

I guess I've done a fine job of misrepresenting myself. I certainly never intended to imply that the members of any particular Christian religion are "eeevil". And at the risk of even more fireworks, I'll state that that goes for Catholics too, however their LEADERS are an entirely different matter.

Having said that, it may (or may not) interest you to know that I was a "cradle Catholic" - raised in it, and participated in it "whole hog" well into my 20s; including being alter boy and the whole nine yards. I'm extremely well aware of how much Christians (and perhaps Catholics especially) TREASURE their TRADITIONS of Christmas AND Easter!
Obviously, something changed. That something was actually 2 things:
1) I met a person that had moved to our small town and started a business here. They needed some work done which they hired me to do. In the course of this we visited quite a bit, and found we had a lot in common - we both were members of "patriot movements" etc. This person is about 10 years older than me, and had been studying various things which interested me quite a bit longer than I had. From our common viewpoints, and the research this person had done coupled with what I had learned, I came to respect this person's opinions and put quite a bit of trust in them. Then one day (quite by accident) while talking, the topic got onto religion, and I found out that person had also been a "cradle Catholic". This person had suggested that I read the Bible, but I didn't take the time to do it for quite some time.
2) A snowstorm prevented me from being able to get to Mass one Sunday. Thinking about the suggestion from my friend, I opened the Bible I had (which was a KJV oddly enough considering the Catholic roots) and began to read. I really wasn't sure where to start, so I just picked a small book (Obadiah if I remember correctly) and read that. What I read raised a couple of questions, so I called my friend to ask. Along with the answers I got, it was recommended that I also obtain a Concordance to aid in my studies. I bought a Concordance, and began again. But this time I approached it like I would have any other book - with no pre-conceived notions, an open mind, and from page 1 taking them in order.

Then in very short order something else happened which I wasn't expecting - the "story" became every bit as captivating as any of the "best" of novels, and I had a desire to spend more and more time with it. Something else happened that I wasn't expecting - the more I read the more I realized that what this book was saying (which was supposedly the basis and inspiration of what I had learned from my religion) was NOT conforming to what I had been taught all my life.

I have always been one that craves knowledge. I like to know the truth - even if it's ugly. Needless to say, studying Scripture is something which a person can devote their entire lives to and STILL dig up more fascinations. Also needless to say, that study and yearning for knowledge and truth has been something which I have been in pursuit of ever since that snowy Sunday years ago.

Yes, I am well aware of the TRADITION of Christmas. I am also well aware that this is just that - a TRIDITION created by MAN, NOT the Creator NOR the Messiah. What does the Messiah have to say about THAT in Scripture?
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   16:15:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: iconoclast (#38)

Good lord, I don't listen to them--they're way down on my list below used car salesmen, a tad bit above lawyers! At least everyone knows what a used car salesman is there for........and anyone that goes to school to learn to speak out of both sides of their mouth just isn't to be trusted.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:23:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: robin (#20)

When was his birthday? I never found it in scriptures....

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:27:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: robin (#20)

I've heard it said to go ahead and have holiday fun, but don't try to pin it on 'celebrating Christ'. It's a manmade holiday. As for celebrating Christ, how can you begin to do that when you're hammered beginning with Halloween to start the buying frenzy, and kids are innundated with the latest advertisement wonders beginning 12/26! Where school choirs can't sing 'Oh little star of Bethlehem", but can sing about some fricking reindeer's red nose! Where you can't display a manger set in the public square, but can sell condoms in public bathrooms.

Buy goodies for those you love and care about--just try not to pin in on something to do with Jesus Christ. His talk of giving was to those in need.

It isn't as easy to talk about being a christian or being a christian when one really tries to live the life. I know, because I fail every day in some way or another.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#37)

Even if you feel that your sola scriptura interpretation is the correct one, there is nothing the government can or should do about somebody else who wishes to celebrate Christmas or hang angel ornaments. Nor if somebody wants to worship and celebrate Dionysus, Odin, or no god or gods at all. Separation of Church and State means that the government stays out of religion - neither promoting nor stifling it.

I agree wholeheartedly!!! And I stated so in post #26.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   17:30:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: innieway (#47)

I'm glad that we're on the same page. I hate the idea of the government doing anything to suppress any private religious practice or expression as much as I would hate the govt' doing anything to promote some religious beliefs or practice over others.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2007-11-14   18:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#48)

...as much as I would hate the govt' doing anything to promote some religious beliefs or practice over others.

HEAVEN FORBID!!!

As much as I hate the thought of Hitlery being in office, I can handle whatever she throws our way. But I shudder to think of what things might be like if we were under control of some (any) organized religion. Look at the Inquisition for a good example of the last time that situation occurred in our ancestry. I believe in Scripture, but I'm telling you - religious groups scare the hell out of me.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   19:17:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: innieway (#43)

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

It's wild alright ...even farther out than militia men.

You would have us believe that a roaming militia man, a snowy morning and Obadiah (of all people) turned you away from orthodox Christianity?

Sorry, but, in the words of Paul Harvey, I'm inclined to think there's "a rest of the story". The 10-year older guy part is interesting. What was the relationship between you and your Dad. What kind of home life did you have? Any bad experiences in Parochial school?

The Obadiah part particularly intrigues me. It is a typical Old Testament prophetical rant about Jews fighting over land. Now there's a shocking/inspiring bit of revelation and such an integral part of the message, example and sacrifice of our lord!

But somehow you were so inspired by its 21 verses (that's right folks, verses, not chapters) that you rushed to your employer/mentor/Rabbi for further enlightenment. Gives us a break. Maybe your new path will lead you to Zionism, who'd be surprised ... no pressure for Christmas trees there.

Son, you may be a "cradle Catholic" but you morphed into a confused/angry(?) Catholic to a heaven knows what.

So far your new path has led you to encouraging the elimination of Christmas and the disruption of a usually rational forum for your own spotlight seeking gratification.

Any more fruits?

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   19:35:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: rowdee (#45)

When was his birthday? I never found it in scriptures....

Wull then, by gully I guess he just wasn't born.

Or, maybe you should keep looking ... it would busy you enough to keep you from littering the forum with your silliness.

I recently got a birthday card and gift card six months late from one of my flakiest, most lovable children.

The date is meaningless .... the remembrance is precious.

I hope scripture includes directions to your place of employment.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   19:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: rowdee (#36)

Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

Gee, what would lead you to think that? They're invariably waving a big Clinton-sized book of scripture around while they pace, smile and rant.

You are cordially invited over after Christmas worship (we'll be there even if we have a snowstorm) for some good eating, drinking and merry making. I'll bet you'd enjoy it in spite of yourself.

You hardcore fundamentalists (do I have you wrong?) always put me in mind of the woman who always kept her eyes closed tight during intercourse so she wouldn't see her husband having a good time.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   20:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: iconoclast (#35)

If Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible then where did you hear God condemn it?

Did he whisper it in your ear? Are you a member of the holy church of Bush-ear- whispered-messages?

No. God doesn't whisper things to me, and I'm not a member of any church. I suppose I could have phrased that better. I should have said "What was written about what God had to say about it?" or something to that effect.

Anyhow, the answer to the base question remains the same. See the quote from Isaiah I posted in that reply. Incidentally, what is written as to what God thinks of Easter, New Years, and all the other national holidays we celebrate is also covered in that verse. I'm sure you're aware that the word holiday is a compound word made up of the words Holy and Day. The Creator gave us the Holy Days (holidays) HE wanted us to keep, and plainly told us in Scripture what they were AND commanded us to keep them. During the Messiah's lifetime HE kept them... Our nationally observed holiday celebrations (each and every one) were proclaimed by man. If someone wants to believe that man has the authority or divine right to change God's laws and create new Holy Days to observe - all I can say is that's a choice they have to make and live with. Just seems to me like there is a whole lot of things going on in this world which none of us particularly like, and it only seems to be getting worse. You see the threads - everything from the drug resistant staph infections, to economic collapse, to moving into a police state, to you name it. That tells me what we're doing isn't working, and I'm just tossing up the idea that what we're doing may go beyond who we're electing, or how our monetary system works, or how competent our medical facilities are. Is it POSSIBLE, just POSSIBLE that what we're doing wrong is something MUCH more BASIC? Something like giving the Creator the finger in self-righteous indignation when we ignore His Holidays and celebrate OURS, no matter how well intentioned they may be?

Most people interpret ad-hominem attacks as something one resorts to when they have no good rebuttal to something in the debate... But that's OK. I'm already a self-confessed conspiracy theorist kook, so being determinedly ignorant fits right in. And if you're right and I'm ignorant and have this whole thing wrong, at least you don't have to worry about it - I can go to hell by myself.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   20:17:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: iconoclast (#52)

You hardcore fundamentalists (do I have you wrong?) always put me in mind of the woman who always kept her eyes closed tight during intercourse so she wouldn't see her husband having a good time.

Now that's funny and it certainly explains all those jokes about the preacher's wife.

Dempsy  posted on  2007-11-14   20:20:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: iconoclast (#50)

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

It's wild alright ...even farther out than militia men.

That's what I thought. More effort than you care to invest. I understand. It's much easier to go to church and have someone tell you what it says - AND interpret it for you.

May I ask a stupid question? How do you Catholics reconcile with yourselves the FACT that so many priests have been caught in perverse acts with children, and the Church instead of allowing them to be prosecuted pays "damages" and keeps it out of court? And THEN when the "heat is off" moves them to another parish as if nothing happened? It would be one thing if this happened in one or two isolated cases, but we're talking major numbers of cases.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   20:34:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: iconoclast (#51)

Oh quit being a jackass.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   21:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: iconoclast (#52)

Or an even bigger jackass........

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   21:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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