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Religion
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Title: Feds ban grandma's angel ornament on Christmas tree....avoid Jesus in decorations
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=58596
Published: Nov 9, 2007
Author: WorldNetDaily
Post Date: 2007-11-13 21:09:51 by AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt
Keywords: Dead Constitution
Views: 1106
Comments: 68

Feds ban grandma's angel ornament on Christmas tree

HUD orders residents to avoid Jesus in decorations

Posted: November 9, 2007

© 2007 http://WorldNetDaily.com

Federal Department of Housing and Urban Development officials have announced a ban on any decorations in HUD housing complexes that mention Jesus or represent religion for the Christmas season, and the American Family Association has responded with a petition drive to overturn the decision.

The AFA has set up a link to allow constituents to send e-mails to the HUD secretary or President Bush expressing their objections to the policy.

The issue arose at the Plant City Living Center in Plant City, Fla., where 85-year-old Mrs. Arnold was told that federal law now prohibits her from displaying anything that references religion – words, decorations and the like – in the common area of her apartment building, a HUD facility.

The grandmother told AFA she was instructed that even an angel decoration would be disallowed by the ban, which makes her think of the restrictions in Germany during World War II.

According to the center, HUD has issued a directive banning "any religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas," which effectively prevents Mrs. Arnold from placing a small Christmas tree outside her door if it contains any religious symbols or words – "even an angel," AFA said in a special alert asking for e-mails.

A spokeswoman at the center who preferred not to give her name told WND the rules now prevent displays "like a manger, like a Christ child, any religious symbols."

"We used to have a sign outside that said, 'Jesus is the reason for the season,' but we can't anymore," she told WND. "We're all very unhappy about that."

The building has about 40 one-bedroom apartments for seniors who are at least 62 years old.

The spokeswoman said she didn't know what would be used for decorations now. "I don't know. We can probably decorate the tree, but we can't put anything on it that symbolizes Christ," she said.

"If the residents want to have a Christmas party in their community room, they cannot call it a Christmas party. The Center says HUD directs residents not to use the word 'Christmas' but to use the word 'holiday,'" the AFA advisory said.

"A Sunday School class from a church near Mrs. Arnold's apartment comes every year to host a Hanging of the Greens and Christmas Party for all the residents. She said the highlight of their Christmas Party comes at the very end of The Hanging of the Greens when someone places the angel on top of their Christmas tree. Their tradition is now banned by the federal government," the AFA said.

The family group noted the federal government has become increasingly active in banning Christianity from the public square, citing the National Park Service's efforts to conceal the words "Laus Deo," which is Latin for "Praise Be to God" at the Washington Monument, and the move by a Veterans Administration official to ban the script of a flag-folding ceremony that mentions "Abraham, Isaac and Jacob" and "Father, Son and Holy Ghost" at 100 national cemeteries.

However, "both of these were rescinded after AFA supporters sent e-mails to proper authorities," the AFA said. In the case of the Washington Monument dispute, Park Service officials told WND they got 26,000 e-mails in a morning.

WND also reported earlier this week that government officials in Fort Collins, Colo., are considering new regulations for Christmas decorations that appear to ban red and green lights because they are too religious.

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#29. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#0)

According to the center, HUD has issued a directive banning "any religious symbols or religious words associated with Christmas," which effectively prevents Mrs. Arnold from placing a small Christmas tree outside her door if it contains any religious symbols or words – "even an angel," AFA said in a special alert asking for e-mails.

This under a Republican administration.

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:09:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: innieway (#26)

Christmas practices are pretty well described in Jeremiah 10:3,4 3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. 4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not. Jeremiah 10:2 says this is the practice of the HEATHEN, and specifically states NOT to do this. Heathen and pagan are synonymous.

Actually, innie, I don't think that refers to the Christmas tree, although the Noahides use it in their argument against Christians and Christmas; I think that refers to carving "gods"/idols of wood :

Jer 10:3 For the customs of the people [are] vain: for [one] cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

Jer 10:4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Jer 10:5 They [are] upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also [is it] in them to do good.

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jer/Jer010.html#top

Matthew Henry:

I. A solemn charge given to the people of God not to conform themselves to the ways and customs of the heathen. Let the house of Israel hear and receive this word from the God of Israel: "Learn not the way of the heathen, do not approve of it, no, nor think indifferently concerning it, much less imitate it or accustom yourselves to it. Let not any of their customs steal in among you (as they are apt to do insensibly) nor mingle themselves with your religion.’’ Note, It ill becomes those that are taught of God to learn the way of the heathen, and to think of worshipping the true God with such rites and ceremonies as they used in the worship of their false gods. See Deu. 12:29–31. It was the way of the heathen to worship the host of heaven, the sun, moon, and stars; to them they gave divine honours, and from them they expected divine favours, and therefore, according as the signs of heaven were, whether they were auspicious or ominous, they thought themselves countenanced or discountenanced by their deities, which made them observe those signs, the eclipses of the sun and moon, the conjunctions and oppositions of the planets, and all the unusual phenomena of the celestial globe, with a great deal of anxiety and trembling. Business was stopped if any thing occurred that was thought to bode ill; if it did but thunder on their left hand, they were almost as if they had been thunderstruck. Now God would not have his people to be dismayed at the signs of heaven, to reverence the stars as deities, nor to frighten themselves with any prognostications grounded upon them. Let them fear the God of heaven, and keep up a reverence of his providence, and then they need not be dismayed at the signs of heaven, for the stars in their courses fight not against any that are at peace with God. The heathen are dismayed at these signs, for they know no better; but let not the house of Israel, that are taught of God, be so.

II. Divers good reasons given to enforce this charge.

1. The way of the heathen is very ridiculous and absurd, and is condemned even by the dictates of right reason, v. 3. The statutes and ordinances of the heathen are vanity itself; they cannot stand the test of a rational disquisition. This is again and again insisted upon here, as it was by Isaiah. The Chaldeans valued themselves upon their wisdom, in which they thought that they excelled all their neighbours; but the prophet here shows that they, and all others that worshipped idols and expected help and relief from them, were brutish and sottish, and had not common sense. (1.) Consider what the idol is that is worshipped. It was a tree cut out of the forest originally. It was fitted up by the hands of the workman, squared, and sawed, and worked into shape; see Isa. 44:12, etc. But, after all, it was but the stock of a tree, fitter to make a gate-post of than any thing else. But, to hide the wood, they deck it with silver and gold, they gild or lacquer it, or they deck it with gold and silver lace, or cloth of tissue. They fasten it to its place, which they themselves have assigned it, with nails and hammers, that it fall not, nor be thrown down, nor stolen away, v. 4. The image is made straight enough, and it cannot be denied but that the workman did his part, for it is upright as the palm-tree (v. 5); it looks stately, and stands up as if it were going to speak to you, but it cannot speak; it is a poor dumb creature; nor can it take one step towards your relief. If there be any occasion for it to shift its place, it must be carried in procession, for it cannot go. Very fitly does the admonition come in here, "Be not afraid of them, any more than of the signs of heaven; be not afraid of incurring their displeasure, for they can do no evil; be not afraid of forfeiting their favour, for neither is it in them to do good. If you think to mend the matter by mending the materials of which the idol is made, you deceive yourselves. Idols of gold and silver are an unworthy to be worshipped as wooden gods. The stock is a doctrine of vanities, v. 8. It teaches lies, teaches lies concerning God. It is an instruction of vanities; it is wood.’’ It is probable that the idols of gold and silver had wood underneath for the substratum, and then silver spread into plates is brought from Tarshish, imported from beyond sea, and gold from Uphaz, or Phaz, which is sometimes rendered the fine or pure gold, Ps. 21:3. A great deal of art is used, and pains taken, about it. They are not such ordinary mechanics that are employed about these as about the wooden gods, v. 3. these are cunning men; it is the work of the workman; the graver must do his part when it has passed through the hands of the founder. Those were but decked here and there with silver and gold; these are silver and gold all over. And, that these gods might be reverenced as kings, blue and purple are their clothing, the colour of royal robes (v. 9), which amuses ignorant worshippers, but makes the matter no better. For what is the idol when it is made and when they have made the best they can of it? He tells us (v. 14): They are falsehood; they are not what they pretend to be, but a great cheat put upon the world. They are worshipped as the gods that give us breath and life and sense, whereas they are lifeless senseless things themselves, and there is no breath in them; there is no spirit in them (so the word is); they are not animated, or inhabited, as they are supposed to be, by any divine spirit or numen—divinity. They are so far from being gods that they have not so much as the spirit of a beast that goes downward. They are vanity, and the work of errors, v. 15. Enquire into the use of them and you will find they are vanity; they are good for nothing; no help is to be expected from them nor any confidence put in them. They are a deceitful work, works of illusions, or mere mockeries; so some read the following clause. They delude those that put their trust in them, make fools of them, or, rather, they make fools of themselves. Enquire into the use of them and you will find they are the work of errors, grounded upon the grossest mistakes that ever men who pretended to reason were guilty of. They are the creatures of a deluded fancy; and the errors by which they were produced they propagate among their worshippers. (2.) Infer hence what the idolaters are that worship these idols. (v. 8): They are altogether brutish and foolish. Those that make them are like unto them, senseless and stupid, and there is no spirit in them—no use of reason, else they would never stoop to them, v. 14. Every man that makes or worships idols has become brutish in his knowledge, that is, brutish for want of knowledge, or brutish in that very thing which one would think they should be fully acquainted with; compare Jude 10, What they know naturally, what they cannot but know by the light of nature, in those things as brute beasts they corrupt themselves. Though in the works of creation they cannot but see the eternal power and godhead of the Creator, yet they have become vain in their imaginations, not liking to retain God in their knowledge. See Rom. 1:21, 18. Nay, whereas they thought it a piece of wisdom thus to multiply gods, it really was the greatest folly they could be guilty of. The world by wisdom knew not God, 1 Co. 1:21; Rom. 1:22. Every founder is himself confounded by the graven image; when he has made it by a mistake he is more and more confirmed in his mistake by it; he is bewildered, bewitched, and cannot disentangle himself from the snare; or it is what he will one time or other be ashamed of.

www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Jer/Jer010.html

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   12:25:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: iconoclast (#29) (Edited)

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

yikes...someone should dig up some [old] articles on that abomination known as the CLINTON 'Christmas' tree!

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   12:27:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: innieway (#26)

Well, I checked it out pretty carefully, and can't seem to find where it became a yearly holiday in Scripture. Can you point out to me where it is? I'm sure I just overlooked it.

Well, I guess we eeevil Catholics need to assume some responsibility for this "odious" joyful, reverent, awesome celebration of remembrance .... the root of the word Christmas is Christ's Mass after all. It's a tradition we treasure.

For those that prefer to sit in a cold room and flip through scripture for justification of their "bah, humbug" attitude, more power to you. You have the same benefits of the free exercise clause of the first amendment as we.

Didn't the Pilgrims and Puritans choose not to observe a celebration of Christ's birth, too? Wow, they were a notably fun bunch.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:40:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#31)

They seem to be doing their damnedest to make Ms. Rodham look like a moderate.

yikes...someone should dig up some [old] articles on that abomination known as the CLINTON 'Christmas' tree!

I believe those articles originated from the embarrassingly revealing book by Gary Aldrich.

www.freerepublic.com/ focus/news/812710/posts

Rest assured it will get some renewed attention once we get closer to election day.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   12:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt (#28)

You reveal what the Bible says....

That was all I was trying to do regarding the topic of the thread - ie Christmas. Other than that, we're talking about a very BIG project. HOWEVER, I AM working on just such a project (or close - I took on what I considered to be a "challenge" on another thread way back on the validity of Scripture - and which has been coming along much slower than anticipated because of an unforeseen work load). I had every intention of pinging you to it once I post it, as I felt you would be interested. It will be a work of magnitude such that I will be posting it in several "parts".

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th month on the first day of the month, in which we are to do no servile work, and which we are to keep unto all our generations.(This becomes quite complicated in figuring out if one considers that the Hebrew calendar does not coincide with the Gregorian calendar we use today. I'm still trying to ascertain just HOW important this is - but I DO know that the Gregorian calendar involved a "changing of times" which is also prophesied to happen, therefore leading me to think it IS important. But no matter which calendar one uses, it must be remembered that this "changing of times" involved making January the first month as opposed to April which was the first month under God's mandate. Therefore, by the Gregorian calendar the seventh month would be October...)

Much of the possible commentary which I could make on this thread are things which I will be addressing in the future article I mentioned. While I DO feel it's important, perhaps I should just leave it at this for now...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   13:26:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: innieway (#10)

WHERE in Scripture is Christmas ever pronounced as a Holy Day (holiday) in the first place? What does God have to say about it?

If Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible then where did you hear God condemn it?

Did he whisper it in your ear? Are you a member of the holy church of Bush-ear- whispered-messages?

You're as determinedly ignorant as my beloved Uncle who attempted to alarm me by stating, "do you know that the Catholic Church is the only one not mentioned in the Bible?" I didn't laugh in his face, I loved him too much.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   13:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: innieway (#10)

Oh, c'mon, innieway.......that's just ol' scripture stuff!! :) Eat, drink, and be merry........they're 'all' doing it, so why can't we? Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   13:33:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: innieway (#34)

Even if you feel that your sola scriptura interpretation is the correct one, there is nothing the government can or should do about somebody else who wishes to celebrate Christmas or hang angel ornaments. Nor if somebody wants to worship and celebrate Dionysus, Odin, or no god or gods at all. Separation of Church and State means that the government stays out of religion - neither promoting nor stifling it.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2007-11-14   13:36:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: rowdee (#36)

Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

Turn off your TV and come on over to my Church.

You'll never have to listen to their nonsense again.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   13:43:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: innieway (#30)

before i go, speaking of all that.....a little off-topic, but related.....

"Gog and Magog

Towards the head of the procession you will see two stern but benevolent wicker giants. They are Gog and Magog, the traditional guardians of the City of London, and they have been carried in the Lord Mayor’s Show since the reign of Henry V....."

"...The statues of Gog and Magog currently standing in the Guildhall were commissioned from sculptor David Evans by Alderman Sir George Wilkinson, who was Lord Mayor when the previous versions were destroyed in the Blitz. The phoenix shield tells us that this is Magog......."

http://www.lordmayorsshow.org/visitors/history/gogmagog

DEATH OF THE PHOENIX

"... SCENE III. The United States

Enter The Phoenix.....

"...the “phoenix” would seem to have prophetic implications for the United States in terms of the Judeo-Masonic Plan. Those poor Pilgrims who brought Christianity to the New World in the early 1600s were soon co-opted by the wealthy Judeo-Freemasons who engineered the American Revolution. This cabal of aristocratic revolutionaries established a government that was independent of the Old World and based wholly on Judeo-Masonic principles. In the new Masonic government, members of the Roman Catholic Church, which had suppressed the Jewish Templars in Europe, were even barred from holding public office. After the Masonic takeover of America in 1776, the Judeo-Freemasons would hold the reigns of the government of the United States and determine its destiny, rather than Christians. The post-revolutionary “Legend of Sleepy Hollow” was a tribute to the Masonic victory (Brom Bones) over the Christian influence (Ichabod Crane) in the United States as well as a prophetic narrative of things to come—when the “Headless Horseman” would conduct another midnight ride through the United States of America......

In 1856, the American poet Walt Whitman wrote to his fellow Freemason, Ralph Waldo Emerson, that the United States is a “work in progress” which would have to die for the Judeo-Masonic Plan of world conquest, and a New World Order, to come into being:

“America, having duly conceived, bears out of herself offspring of her own to do the workmanship wanted. To freedom, to strength, to poems, to personal greatness, it is never permitted to rest, not a generation or part of a generation. To be ripe beyond further increase is to prepare to die. The architects of These States laid their foundations, and passed to further, spheres. What they laid is a work done; as much more remains. Now are needed other architects, whose duty is not less difficult, but perhaps more difficult. Each age forever needs architects. America is not finished, perhaps never will be; now America is a divine true sketch. There are Thirty-Two States sketched—the population thirty millions. In a few years there will be Fifty States. Again in a few years there will be A Hundred States, the population hundreds of millions, the freshest and freest of men. Of course such men stand to nothing less than the freshest and freest expression.” (Leaves of Grass, 1856)

The Great Seal of the United States, which is displayed on the back of the

dollar bill, is evidence that the United States was predestined by its Judeo-Masonic founders to self-destruct. For the Eagle which adorns the Seal was originally a Phoenix, the occult symbol of self-immolation:

“The hand of the Mysteries controlled the establishment of the United States Government and the signature of the Mysteries may still be seen on the Great Seal of the United States of America. The Seal discloses a mass of Masonic symbols, chiefly amongst them the American Eagle, which is a conventionalized phoenix. The U S Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter said ‘The real rulers in Washington are invisible and exercise power from behind the scenes .’” - G. Kumar

[Note: Felix Frankfurter was Jewish, a Zionist and a member of the Council on Foreign Relations.]

The Phoenix is a mythical bird which lives for five hundred years, then burns itself on a funeral pyre and rises from the ashes as a lowly worm that becomes a bird once more. It is said to gather incense for its own bier, to lie down amidst the flames of the pyre, and then to be reborn from the ashes. The Phoenix was also a symbol of the mythical Egyptian Sun god, Osiris, which is the soul of Orion, the headless god and archetype of the Headless Horseman in “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow”...."

http://www.watch.pair.com/death-phoenix.html

The phoenix is a substitute for the eagle, which is a substitute for the serpent. See Lost Tribe of Dan:

".... The 6-Pointed Star consisting of 13 stars represents the "Star of David" which is really the Seal of Solomon, a pagan symbol which will be the Mark of the Beast in Rev. 13:16.

The emblem of the Eagle was substituted for the Serpent by the Tribe of Dan, from which the False Messiah will come:

"Dan's position in the journey was on the North of the Tabernacle, with Asher and Naphtali. The standard of the tribe was of white and red and the crest upon it an eagle. . .Jacob had compared Dan to a serpent. Ahiezer substituted the eagle, the destroyer of serpents, as he shrank from carrying an adder upon his flag." [Unger's Bible Dictionary, p. 273]

*

The 13 arrows in the left claw of the Eagle represent the 13 tribes of Israel fomenting wars and revolutions throughout the world. *

In its right claw, the Eagle carries an Olive Branch which has 13 leaves. The Olive Tree represents the House of Israel and House of Judah (Is. 17:6, 23:14, Jer.11:16, Rom. 11). The 13 leaves represent the 13 tribes of Israel and Judah.

Thus the numerous "13s" found in the Great Seal, as identified by Manly P. Hall, really represent the 13 tribes of Israel, although Hall would never divulge that very esoteric interpretation. The reason for the omission is found in Fritz Springmeier's book, The Top 13 Illuminati Bloodlines, which briefly mentions that Marie Bauer Hall was the wife of Manly P. Hall:

"... Manly P. Hall whose wife was a Bauer (very likely part of the Rothschild bloodline.)" (p.43)

Based on this new information, which has been withheld from the Gentile world, it becomes apparent that the Great Seal of the United States reveals in a symbolic code the quest of the Zionist Jews to return to and conquer the Holy Land which God originally gave them, but which they forfeited through their rejection of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ. Moreover, the Great Seal reveals that they are using the United States of America and to reestablish the kingdom of Israel from which their Antichrist, a descendant of King Solomon, will rule the world.

A timeline of this Zionist conspiracy is presented in our report, Heeding Bible Prophecy: New Israel. The Judeo-Masonic Plan for the final stages of the Zionist conspiracy is the subject of another report, Death of the Phoenix: Final Act for the United States of America......."

THE MASONIC FOUNDATIONS OF THE UNITED STATES

http://freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=65060

Again:

Rev 20:7 ¶ And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom [is] as the sand of the sea. [just like the folks who were promised to Abraham]

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/tsk_b/Rev/20/9.html

I also relate this to the battle of the two eagles in Ezekiel 17, the first eagle being God/Jesus Christ. I've read the explanations for what this is supposed to represent, but it is a parable for the HOUSE OF ISRAEL, and the House of Israel never went to Babylon [they went to Assyria]. However, the "House of Israel" is the church, now, and I believe America is the New Israel/New Jerusalem, and Jerusalem DOES "go to Babylon" in the "last days" [end of the age]. I think this chapter relates far more to what has happened to America, than any other time period...double prophecy perhaps.....history that was not available to people like Matthew Henry, who wrote about two hundred years ago.

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Mic/Mic004.html#10 [I believe that Micah 4 is another chapter that prophesies of America].

www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Zec/Zec002.html#7 [the Babylon referred to here, as I said over here freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi?ArtNum=64640 , is, I believe, the Old Jerusalem, and Zion in this verse is the New Jerusalem spoken of in Zechariah, verse 2.

The daughter of the faithful Zion, is dwelling with the daughter of the apostate Zion here in America for the final battle. This battle over Christmas is all part of it.

================================================

if you're still there, don't go away, i want to comment on your last post.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   14:54:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: innieway (#34)

I took on what I considered to be a "challenge" on another thread way back on the validity of Scripture - and which has been coming along much slower than anticipated because of an unforeseen work load).

oh, boy...do i know how THAT goes!

I had every intention of pinging you to it once I post it, as I felt you would be interested. It will be a work of magnitude such that I will be posting it in several "parts".

e-mail me, please.

What DOES it say about the Feast of Trumpets for instance?

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th month on the first day of the month,

EVERY month??

This becomes quite complicated in figuring out if one considers that the Hebrew calendar does not coincide with the Gregorian calendar we use today. I'm still trying to ascertain just HOW important this is - but I DO know that the Gregorian calendar involved a "changing of times" which is also prophesied to happen, therefore leading me to think it IS important. But no matter which calendar one uses, it must be remembered that this "changing of times" involved making January the first month as opposed to April which was the first month under God's mandate. Therefore, by the Gregorian calendar the seventh month would be October...)

I am VERY interested in that. Just wrote down a little blip on that this morning, because it led me to think I may have made a miscalculation on that subject regarding another passage in the Bible. Here's that passage I had occasion to note this morning:

The Washington family Bible records, "George Washington Son to Augustine & Mary his Wife was born the 11th Day of February 1731/2 about 10 in the Morning." The old style calendar entry of 11 February 1731/32 became obsolete in 1752 when the British corrected their calendar by adding eleven days, making Washington's birth date under the new style 22 February 1732. His birthday was celebrated on both days during his lifetime.

chnm.gmu.edu/courses/henriques/hist615/gwnpsbio.htm

Wikipedia has [or had, at least] a lot of info on this [conversion from the Julian to Gregorian (?)], and a conversion chart, and I thought I had it figured it out for that date I was contemplating, but now I'm not so sure. I would have guessed Washington's birth year at 1731 rather than 1732, and I thought it was ten days, not eleven.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:11:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: innieway (#40)

Basically that it's a Holy Convocation unto us which occurs in the 7th on the first day of the month,

EVERY month??

...never mind...caught it...hit forehead.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:18:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: iconoclast (#33)

Rest assured it will get some renewed attention once we get closer to election day.

I certainly hope so.

AllTheKings'HorsesWontDoIt  posted on  2007-11-14   15:21:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: iconoclast (#32)

Well, I guess we eeevil Catholics need to assume some responsibility for this "odious" joyful, reverent, awesome celebration of remembrance .... the root of the word Christmas is Christ's Mass after all. It's a tradition we treasure.

I knew I was going to light some fireworks.

I guess I've done a fine job of misrepresenting myself. I certainly never intended to imply that the members of any particular Christian religion are "eeevil". And at the risk of even more fireworks, I'll state that that goes for Catholics too, however their LEADERS are an entirely different matter.

Having said that, it may (or may not) interest you to know that I was a "cradle Catholic" - raised in it, and participated in it "whole hog" well into my 20s; including being alter boy and the whole nine yards. I'm extremely well aware of how much Christians (and perhaps Catholics especially) TREASURE their TRADITIONS of Christmas AND Easter!
Obviously, something changed. That something was actually 2 things:
1) I met a person that had moved to our small town and started a business here. They needed some work done which they hired me to do. In the course of this we visited quite a bit, and found we had a lot in common - we both were members of "patriot movements" etc. This person is about 10 years older than me, and had been studying various things which interested me quite a bit longer than I had. From our common viewpoints, and the research this person had done coupled with what I had learned, I came to respect this person's opinions and put quite a bit of trust in them. Then one day (quite by accident) while talking, the topic got onto religion, and I found out that person had also been a "cradle Catholic". This person had suggested that I read the Bible, but I didn't take the time to do it for quite some time.
2) A snowstorm prevented me from being able to get to Mass one Sunday. Thinking about the suggestion from my friend, I opened the Bible I had (which was a KJV oddly enough considering the Catholic roots) and began to read. I really wasn't sure where to start, so I just picked a small book (Obadiah if I remember correctly) and read that. What I read raised a couple of questions, so I called my friend to ask. Along with the answers I got, it was recommended that I also obtain a Concordance to aid in my studies. I bought a Concordance, and began again. But this time I approached it like I would have any other book - with no pre-conceived notions, an open mind, and from page 1 taking them in order.

Then in very short order something else happened which I wasn't expecting - the "story" became every bit as captivating as any of the "best" of novels, and I had a desire to spend more and more time with it. Something else happened that I wasn't expecting - the more I read the more I realized that what this book was saying (which was supposedly the basis and inspiration of what I had learned from my religion) was NOT conforming to what I had been taught all my life.

I have always been one that craves knowledge. I like to know the truth - even if it's ugly. Needless to say, studying Scripture is something which a person can devote their entire lives to and STILL dig up more fascinations. Also needless to say, that study and yearning for knowledge and truth has been something which I have been in pursuit of ever since that snowy Sunday years ago.

Yes, I am well aware of the TRADITION of Christmas. I am also well aware that this is just that - a TRIDITION created by MAN, NOT the Creator NOR the Messiah. What does the Messiah have to say about THAT in Scripture?
Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   16:15:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: iconoclast (#38)

Good lord, I don't listen to them--they're way down on my list below used car salesmen, a tad bit above lawyers! At least everyone knows what a used car salesman is there for........and anyone that goes to school to learn to speak out of both sides of their mouth just isn't to be trusted.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:23:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: robin (#20)

When was his birthday? I never found it in scriptures....

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:27:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: robin (#20)

I've heard it said to go ahead and have holiday fun, but don't try to pin it on 'celebrating Christ'. It's a manmade holiday. As for celebrating Christ, how can you begin to do that when you're hammered beginning with Halloween to start the buying frenzy, and kids are innundated with the latest advertisement wonders beginning 12/26! Where school choirs can't sing 'Oh little star of Bethlehem", but can sing about some fricking reindeer's red nose! Where you can't display a manger set in the public square, but can sell condoms in public bathrooms.

Buy goodies for those you love and care about--just try not to pin in on something to do with Jesus Christ. His talk of giving was to those in need.

It isn't as easy to talk about being a christian or being a christian when one really tries to live the life. I know, because I fail every day in some way or another.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   16:35:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#37)

Even if you feel that your sola scriptura interpretation is the correct one, there is nothing the government can or should do about somebody else who wishes to celebrate Christmas or hang angel ornaments. Nor if somebody wants to worship and celebrate Dionysus, Odin, or no god or gods at all. Separation of Church and State means that the government stays out of religion - neither promoting nor stifling it.

I agree wholeheartedly!!! And I stated so in post #26.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   17:30:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: innieway (#47)

I'm glad that we're on the same page. I hate the idea of the government doing anything to suppress any private religious practice or expression as much as I would hate the govt' doing anything to promote some religious beliefs or practice over others.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2007-11-14   18:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#48)

...as much as I would hate the govt' doing anything to promote some religious beliefs or practice over others.

HEAVEN FORBID!!!

As much as I hate the thought of Hitlery being in office, I can handle whatever she throws our way. But I shudder to think of what things might be like if we were under control of some (any) organized religion. Look at the Inquisition for a good example of the last time that situation occurred in our ancestry. I believe in Scripture, but I'm telling you - religious groups scare the hell out of me.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   19:17:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: innieway (#43)

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

It's wild alright ...even farther out than militia men.

You would have us believe that a roaming militia man, a snowy morning and Obadiah (of all people) turned you away from orthodox Christianity?

Sorry, but, in the words of Paul Harvey, I'm inclined to think there's "a rest of the story". The 10-year older guy part is interesting. What was the relationship between you and your Dad. What kind of home life did you have? Any bad experiences in Parochial school?

The Obadiah part particularly intrigues me. It is a typical Old Testament prophetical rant about Jews fighting over land. Now there's a shocking/inspiring bit of revelation and such an integral part of the message, example and sacrifice of our lord!

But somehow you were so inspired by its 21 verses (that's right folks, verses, not chapters) that you rushed to your employer/mentor/Rabbi for further enlightenment. Gives us a break. Maybe your new path will lead you to Zionism, who'd be surprised ... no pressure for Christmas trees there.

Son, you may be a "cradle Catholic" but you morphed into a confused/angry(?) Catholic to a heaven knows what.

So far your new path has led you to encouraging the elimination of Christmas and the disruption of a usually rational forum for your own spotlight seeking gratification.

Any more fruits?

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   19:35:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: rowdee (#45)

When was his birthday? I never found it in scriptures....

Wull then, by gully I guess he just wasn't born.

Or, maybe you should keep looking ... it would busy you enough to keep you from littering the forum with your silliness.

I recently got a birthday card and gift card six months late from one of my flakiest, most lovable children.

The date is meaningless .... the remembrance is precious.

I hope scripture includes directions to your place of employment.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   19:53:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: rowdee (#36)

Why, I bet them thar prosperity teachers/preachers will side with these new times, rather than with old stuff.

Gee, what would lead you to think that? They're invariably waving a big Clinton-sized book of scripture around while they pace, smile and rant.

You are cordially invited over after Christmas worship (we'll be there even if we have a snowstorm) for some good eating, drinking and merry making. I'll bet you'd enjoy it in spite of yourself.

You hardcore fundamentalists (do I have you wrong?) always put me in mind of the woman who always kept her eyes closed tight during intercourse so she wouldn't see her husband having a good time.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   20:14:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: iconoclast (#35)

If Christmas is not mentioned in the Bible then where did you hear God condemn it?

Did he whisper it in your ear? Are you a member of the holy church of Bush-ear- whispered-messages?

No. God doesn't whisper things to me, and I'm not a member of any church. I suppose I could have phrased that better. I should have said "What was written about what God had to say about it?" or something to that effect.

Anyhow, the answer to the base question remains the same. See the quote from Isaiah I posted in that reply. Incidentally, what is written as to what God thinks of Easter, New Years, and all the other national holidays we celebrate is also covered in that verse. I'm sure you're aware that the word holiday is a compound word made up of the words Holy and Day. The Creator gave us the Holy Days (holidays) HE wanted us to keep, and plainly told us in Scripture what they were AND commanded us to keep them. During the Messiah's lifetime HE kept them... Our nationally observed holiday celebrations (each and every one) were proclaimed by man. If someone wants to believe that man has the authority or divine right to change God's laws and create new Holy Days to observe - all I can say is that's a choice they have to make and live with. Just seems to me like there is a whole lot of things going on in this world which none of us particularly like, and it only seems to be getting worse. You see the threads - everything from the drug resistant staph infections, to economic collapse, to moving into a police state, to you name it. That tells me what we're doing isn't working, and I'm just tossing up the idea that what we're doing may go beyond who we're electing, or how our monetary system works, or how competent our medical facilities are. Is it POSSIBLE, just POSSIBLE that what we're doing wrong is something MUCH more BASIC? Something like giving the Creator the finger in self-righteous indignation when we ignore His Holidays and celebrate OURS, no matter how well intentioned they may be?

Most people interpret ad-hominem attacks as something one resorts to when they have no good rebuttal to something in the debate... But that's OK. I'm already a self-confessed conspiracy theorist kook, so being determinedly ignorant fits right in. And if you're right and I'm ignorant and have this whole thing wrong, at least you don't have to worry about it - I can go to hell by myself.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   20:17:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: iconoclast (#52)

You hardcore fundamentalists (do I have you wrong?) always put me in mind of the woman who always kept her eyes closed tight during intercourse so she wouldn't see her husband having a good time.

Now that's funny and it certainly explains all those jokes about the preacher's wife.

Dempsy  posted on  2007-11-14   20:20:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: iconoclast (#50)

Skipping church and studying Scripture. A WILD NEW CONCEPT perhaps whose time has come.

It's wild alright ...even farther out than militia men.

That's what I thought. More effort than you care to invest. I understand. It's much easier to go to church and have someone tell you what it says - AND interpret it for you.

May I ask a stupid question? How do you Catholics reconcile with yourselves the FACT that so many priests have been caught in perverse acts with children, and the Church instead of allowing them to be prosecuted pays "damages" and keeps it out of court? And THEN when the "heat is off" moves them to another parish as if nothing happened? It would be one thing if this happened in one or two isolated cases, but we're talking major numbers of cases.

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   20:34:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: iconoclast (#51)

Oh quit being a jackass.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   21:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: iconoclast (#52)

Or an even bigger jackass........

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-14   21:09:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: rowdee (#57)

Or an even bigger jackass........

Thoughtful and literate reply.

You must have a spell checker.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   21:31:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: innieway (#55)

May I ask a stupid question? How do you Catholics reconcile with yourselves the FACT that so many priests have been caught in perverse acts with children, and the Church instead of allowing them to be prosecuted pays "damages" and keeps it out of court? And THEN when the "heat is off" moves them to another parish as if nothing happened? It would be one thing if this happened in one or two isolated cases, but we're talking major numbers of cases.

There is nothing for "us Catholics" to reconcile.

We can speak out of our disgust and I have, as have many lay Catholics. But, the sinning priests, and a cowardly hierarchy, have the burden of repentance and reconciliation on their souls. And, no, I am not nearly satisfied by what I see as an ongoing attempt to tiptoe away from these scandals.

A million perverts and unworthies could not separate me from the sacraments.

BTW, your repeated insinuation that Catholics don't read/know scripture is also scandalous. Not all are so inclined, but that is undoubtedly true of any "church" larger than two alienated individuals.

BTW#2, I'm still curious about the life changing profundities you discerned in Obadiah. That aside, it occurs to me that you might very well find a spiritual home with the "Jews for Jesus" movement, and I would have absolutely no problem with that. Just stuff your anger with my church.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   22:10:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: iconoclast (#50)

I was gonna "let it rest" but I changed my mind.

Yeah. God works in mysterious ways.

Don't read more into it than what it is. I had a very good home life. Raised by folks that were born in 1901. Worked their way through the Great Depression, and learned the hard way how to prosper in exceedingly difficult times. Taught me to be prepared for the worst, and how to make it through.
The "older guy part" is nothing more than someone that had been involved in studying for quite a while some things which I was interested in (things like the Federal Reserve, income taxes, and Social Security) who was able to tell me where to find more info on my studies, and give me some good pointers. One of the things this person was also heavily into studying was the Bible. It's nothing more than that.

Thought I made it quite clear that I was embarking on something which was totally foreign to me. I had never actually opened up a Bible and read anything. I caught "readings" in church, and that was good enough. I picked Obadiah BECAUSE it was short. And I had NO IDEA about what I had just read. Jews fighting over land wasn't typically in the readings we had in church. I had no idea who or what Edom was. And I was making the typical mistake of trying to interpret what I had just read. Yes, I had some questions, so I CALLED (didn't rush right over) and asked.

Nope. Now I DO know about Esau/Edom.

I'm less confused now than I ever have been. I'm not angry either. I live a happy life. I might even live by better "Christian values" than you do. For example, when was the last time you picked up total strangers who were stranded and invited them into your home? I did last winter. A family who's car had broken down and had 2 small children were caught in a snowstorm. All the motels in our little town were full, and they were standing OUTSIDE a convenience store shivering. This storm was bad, the interstate was closed, and lots of travelers were stuck. The store was full of people, so they weren't allowing folks to stay inside for long. Anyhow the CATHOLIC CHURCH right across the street from the convenience store had it's doors locked (as did all the other churches in town). It's their policy, keep the doors locked - somebody might steal their very precious and expensive gold tabernacle or chalice you know. Back to the story, this was a young couple that most folks would look at and kind of steer clear of anyhow - you know dreadlocks, nose piercings, tats everywhere - (well lets just say they didn't really fit in in this small country town). In fact, during the time I was there 3 different Catholics I know here had left the store and drove off without ever even speaking to these folks - and quite a few other Christians too. I couldn't let them stay out in the snow and cold so I brought them to my house. Fed them, made sure they had a warm bed to sleep in... Got up the next morning and towed the guy's car to the mechanic. They were here a couple of days while their car was being fixed. I didn't ask them for anything while they were here. Car got fixed, and they went on.... You done anything like that lately - SON???

Where ever my "new path" has led me, one thing is for sure - there's more truth in it now than there ever was in the "old path".

Yeah. BTW, this is New Testament AND Jesus said it - so you can believe this, it's not that dusty, archaic Old Testament stuff:

Luke 6:41 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but perceivest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-14   22:28:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Dempsy (#54)

Now that's funny

Well, a lack of a sense of humor is another thing I've noted about these stiff necked, self righteous types.

Their disdain for merrymaking always amuses me too. They read the good book and amazingly skip what the the Lord had to say about their ilk and about his whipping up a batch of top shelf wine out of nothing to keep the Cana wedding party going.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-14   22:39:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: innieway, rowdee (#60)

I was gonna "let it rest"

An excellent thought.

God works in mysterious ways.

He does indeed. Amen

I'm a pretty much a self-converted Catholic ... no indoctrination, just a lifetime of experiences, some good, some horrific. Oddly enough I feel that the Church and a Jewish homosexual psychologist, not to put too fine a point on it, saved my life. We encountered the psychologist during the process of trekking from counselor to counselor in a futile attempt to save a shipwreck of a marriage of 25 years.

During the the worst and near final period I'd leave the house and walk to the neighborhood Catholic church .... just to escape the middle of the night harangues of my ex and settle on my knees in the quiet of the sanctuary to pray for some path to saving that marriage. I later related this to the kindly old parish Priest who gave me my "instructions", which really just amounted to "fireside chats". He asked me how I got into the church in the middle of the night, and I said "I just walked in the front door". His reply was just "hmm, those doors are supposed to be locked at that hour". So, I guess maybe we all have little "miracles" that have a life changing affect in our lives.

Bottom line, I want to apologize to both of you for getting carried away in my fervor for the Church that I have come to love.

Peace and love to you, sincerely.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-15   8:48:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: iconoclast (#62)

Let me be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas, iconoclast. I plan on drinking too much eggnog and enjoying all the useless presents my wonderful family places under the tree for me. The seriousness of our times should allow for some joyful American tradition, regardless of the various religious interpretation.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2007-11-15   8:54:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Jethro Tull (#63)

Let me be the first to wish you a Merry Christmas, iconoclast. I plan on drinking too much eggnog and enjoying all the useless presents my wonderful family places under the tree for me. The seriousness of our times should allow for some joyful American tradition, regardless of the various religious interpretation.

Amen to every word of your post, brother.

And a very merry Christmas back at you.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2007-11-15   8:59:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: iconoclast (#62)

And peace and love in Christ back at you.

I just read your last comment to Dempsey and had to laugh.......about the wine-making for the Cana wedding party as well as the stiff-necked and eyes closed comments. All I could do was think was: "Me"? Stiff-necked? Eyes closed? These guys must be newcomers to the forum!

I took the comments as trying to paint a less than pretty picture of anyone who professes to love Jesus Christ.

It got me to laughing because I'm always correcting my elderly mother regarding drinking and use the Cana wine story as the example. I even have a couple of commentaries I've atually written rebuttals to the writer's comments against drinking!!

You mention 'miracles'...........I, too, have a story--involves 3 escrows in 3 different states closing with precision in order that the 4th escrow proceed in perfect timing in the 4th state. Otherwise, I wouldn't have found this place I live at, set up as it was with the big satellite dish. Nor would I have been calling out a technican to show me how the damned thing works that happened to use Dr. Gene Scott's satellite location to set up with.

And once I got a look at that religious 'yahoo' in the wierd clothes talking about pyramids,among other things, it was entertaining to observe a few minutes at a time--is he gonna be the next Bakker or whoever to dupe little old ladies.

But damned if this guy didn't talk scripture, and actually explain Hebrew or Greek words used. Actually he was shining a light, and that light brought me back to God.

I study an read Scripture all the time. I don't believe any one denomination has a lock on Jesus Christ and the gospel. I do believe man has made a lot of gobbly-de-goop rites and rituals and rules and regulations that cause stumbling, falling away, and/or the refusal to become involved to begin with.

Christians should be a happy lot. I'm sure Jesus Christ was.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-15   12:59:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Jethro Tull, Iconoclast (#63)

I plan on drinking too much eggnog

My wife loves brandy, and with plenty of fresh cream from our Jerseys and eggs from our chickens - eggnog is just a "natural" for her... Anyone want a good homemade eggnog recipe, I've got one.

My tastes tend to run more towards a good tekillya - something like Petron Silver 100% pure Agave; straight, no lemon, lime, or salt (that shit is TOO smooth, a person can hurt himself with it) - and a good wheat beer chaser...

CHEERS!

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-15   13:34:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: rowdee, iconoclad, Jethro Tull (#65)

And once I got a look at that religious 'yahoo' in the wierd clothes talking about pyramids,among other things, it was entertaining to observe a few minutes at a time--is he gonna be the next Bakker or whoever to dupe little old ladies.

But damned if this guy didn't talk scripture, and actually explain Hebrew or Greek words used.

And a stogie hangin out of his mouth - scribbling all over the dry-erase board in letters that aren't part of any alphabet that makes ANY sense to a country kid from America.

I miss ol Gene. I'd just discovered him not long before he died. He had a lot of good insight, and apparently put in a LOT of hours in his studies. I was working my way through his archives. Then shortly after he died, the archives were pulled off his website. Haven't checked in a long time, but I'm bettin they still aren't back up.

That's the conclusion I've come to too. Probably goes way further than just causing stumbling and falling away even. Look at this thread - the way it was going for a while. Course, I had a big hand in that by making my first comment (which I did BECAUSE of my conclusion). But the point is when it comes to religious debate (or sharing of ideas), it seems it don't take long and the debate turns personal. That's on the GOOD end of the spectrum! I don't even want to try to count how many WARS have been fought because of religion.

I'm thinking so too. Scripture doesn't give us much to go on concerning His personal life... But it can be a little hard sometimes to be a happy lot. Puttin up with Bushes and Clintons for 20 years is enough to drive people into a rEVOLution. This country desperately needs a dose of RP...

99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.
Steven Wright

innieway  posted on  2007-11-15   14:18:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: innieway (#67)

FYI, all of Doc's teachings are going onto CDs and DVDs....trying to keep abreast of the newer technologies. And they transcribing and printing his teachings into book form. I think they just made a deal to go onto Dish or one of the other small dish programming outfits. And, of course, they're on the internet 24/7.

Yeah..........that cigar was another thing that made me wonder.

As sit regarding Jesus being a happy person. How could He not be happy--what with a direct line to God! Really, though, I imagine there were many things that saddened him, i.e., the 'traditions' thing with the Pharisees, and I would imagine he would have gone nuts with it taking so long for his disciples to 'get it'. BUT, you never find him angry or upset with them. He continues to teach them. Good grief--but I can't imagine having the degree of patience of him or Job without having a happy outlook. If they were down in the dumps to begin with, yikes--well, you can imagine.

I try not to paint with a broad brush any sect or denomination. There would be an exception or two though. I had enough of that 'they're going to hell'--meaning anyone that wasn't of 'our' denomination as a kid growing up.

I do believe that anyone who places their faith/belief on Jesus Christ and what he did, his death and his resurrection, will obtain eternal life. I could commune with others on that basic level; but you start tossing in 'don't drink, don't dance, don't wear makeup, don't breath, don't drink mountain dew sodie water' don't smoke, don't laugh, don't wear a dress above the knee, worship some idol, kill some bird, etc., and I'm gone.

I actually enjoy discussions on the board so long as someone isn't being a smart ass but is sincere. I believe it can help us grown in our spiritual walk. I believe the christian walk is one of, or should be one of, continual growth and enlightment.

rowdee  posted on  2007-11-15   17:59:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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