The notion that anyone in this country is an "Islamofascist" is ridiculous on its face and will only be bought by the 30 percenters who are hopeless idiots anyway.
There is no contingent of Americans that are "pro Islam". There is no "5th column" of Americans that will welcome the Muslim invasion fleet that exists only in the whored out minds of pimps for the MIC like David Horowitz.
That they even advance such patently absurd insinuations speaks to the weakness of their positions and arguments- all of which are based on lies.
What motivates Ron Paul supporters and war opponents in general is not any latent sympathy for "Radical Islam"- but the fact that the war in Iraq and the war on terror in general are utterly unnecessary and gratuitous and serve no purpose other than to concentrate power and wealth in DC and among an oligarchy. That is why these wars are oppossed more or less. And liars like Horowitz CANNOT address that because it is so very obvious. So they do the only thing they can- they do what paid whores, ad men, and hired pens of the war state have always done- they LIE.
But unfortunately for them- these lies are just stupid.
All three persons in the interview are social engineers leaning towards fascism. Fucking Horowitz is a full blown communist. Americans are allowing themselves to be swindled by dope addicts (Limbaugh and Beck), that slobber disinfo and propaganda about a true statesman, Ron Paul, who is a doctor, a husband of 50 years, a father, a grand father, a veteran, a congressman of 20 years with a pure voting record free of compromise and the ONLY statesman in D.C. without a closet full of skeletons making him a blackmail target, is being villified by shit eating scumbags that have sold out for 30 pieces of silver.
Horowitz typifies Jews in America and Israel that want freedom to propagate communism or fascism for everyone else. Fuck him and Glenn Beck.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
I wonder if David Horositz hangs out in the MN airport bathroom with Senator Widestance?
I believe he's been spotted holding Rudy Julie-Annie's crank in Gay Pride Parades while shouting Rudy "really" Sucks. As I understand it Mitt Rump-me has offered to marry the same (yuk) sex couple in Hucksterbees church (Hope Arkansas-hahahah).
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
Thought I'd drop ya a note to let you know how very little I appreciate your pathetic program of disinfo and Islamo-farcism. You are either the dumbest SOB on planet earth, so eaten up with ADD, or taking bribes. All of the aforementioned conditions render you completely incapable of honestly appraising reality. I suppose that's why you make continual reference to your drunken, dope riddled past. Regardless of your past you should be ashamed of what you have become, a traitor or useful moron.
Well, let me first state that you and your ilk are not going to surrender our freedoms for us even though it's obvious to me that you'd like to. Soon you won't be able to speak in public because of your lies and support for the real terror mongers trying to spread fear amongst Americans. All of the fake terror alerts, the CIA/Bush Administration paying shills like you, Chertoff bailing the Bin Ladens out of the country, NORAD standing down, building 7 falling into its own footprint, firemen and others reporting bombs going off, Odigo e- mailing Trade Tower employees 2 hours before the "attack", Kissinger (you gotta be shitting me) being named by Bush to head up the 9-11 Omission Commission, the lack of reference to building 7 in the 9-11 report, Norman Pinetta's testimony describing Cheney declining a shoot down order, 88 minute flight without interception prior to Pentagon attack ... and there's much more.
Islamo-Fascism is a farce and if it ever existed it was because the U.S. Govt. Inc created it. Those elites (the ones whose boots you lick daily) have replaced the Cubans used for the Watergate break-in and the assassination projects aimed at Castro with Iraqi Red Guard that Bush and Clinton helped migrate after Gulf War I.
The same CIA elements that conspired to kill Kennedy have orchestrated the WTC I bombing, the OKC bombing, WTC II and it all goes back to Daddy Bush and all of his scumbag compatriots.
You're right when you admit that something's wrong in America ... and you're part of it. You, Medvedev, Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, and O'Reilly are nothing more than shills for pro-Israeli, zionazi fascists. When they are through with you ... they will eat you and your kids, if you haven't done so already.
Doug Scheidt
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
How about Mikhail Medved(ev) ... did he suck anyone in ???
Letter (e-mail) to Medved(ev):
I think you're a phoney, a liar and a traitor to the United States. I think you're a Bolshevic Jew probably descended from Mikhail Medvedev, the murderer of Czar Nicholas.
Your description of the State of Israel as anything but a total fraud demonstrates your disingenuous attitude towards Americans in general but more importantly your allegiance to the fake terrorist State of Israel. You and your ilk beat the Islamo-Fascist drum to death when the truth is that zionazi Jews like yourself have done more to damage this country than any other group. You and your brethern are Ashkenazi Jews, biblically descended of Japeth and not Shem. The Abrahamic covenant was with descendants of Shem, not Japeth. Those expected through Bible prophecy to attack "ISRAEL" at Armageddon are the descendants of Japeth, which would necessarily include you and your brethern. [See Gog, Magog, Togarmah, Gomer and his bands (Gomer is Ashkenaz' father) etc., at Ezekiel 37/38/39].
Your average listener is dumb enough to allow your Bush cheerleading exercises not realising your leftist leanings and past. You are a traitor, a "poopaganda" specialist, a dealer in pure shit.
From another blog:
Medved is a zionazi Jew. He claims to be an historian but never discusses that he shares the same name as the Bolshevic that murdered the Czar of Russia (Mikhail Medvedev = Michael Medved).
They do not totally invalidate the claims by the head of the "execution" squad, Yakov Yurovsky, nor his accomplice Mikhail Medvedev (alias Kudrin) who both wrote of instructions (permission?) to kill the Romanovs coming not from Yekaterinburg itself but from Perm, the closest centre in direct telegraphic contact with Moscow.
History recounts several facts relative to the success of the Bolshevic Revolution and consequent slaughter of at least 50 million people. One very important fact that cannot be disregarded is that the Bolshevics failed in 1905- 07 to accomplish their mission for two reasons.
(A). They lacked "private" financing that was garnered through Wall Street in 1917. (B). They hadn't diluted the culture through mass migrations, yet. [Both of these objects to be fulfilled by the Trans-Texas Corridor and the NAU.]
The Bolshevics were able to secure the private financing and attract invaders from all around Russia before the 1917 over throw, at which time one Mikhail Medvedev was one of several Bolshevics that was present when the Czar and his family were executed. The first bullet fired was into the head of the Czar, and it was fired by Medvedev.
History is replete with examples of Jew arrogance that resulted in their dismissal from nearly every country that they have parasitically infiltrated. You patronize Christians that your ilk need to support your zionazi dream, but more people are awakening to your lies.
"The mighty are only mighty because we are on our knees. Let us rise!" --Camille Desmoulins
Please tell me examples of the Saudis in our national affairs.
Our military strategy in the Mideast continually benefits the Saudis. Consider the war in Kuwait, and the Iraq war now. Consider our support of Sunnis during the Iran-Iraq war.
The Saudi foreign minister said Saudi Arabia is a peaceful country in an area of tremendous threat and upheaval. “So it is not strange that it is trying to acquire a posture of defense that will protect the interests and safety of the people of Saudi Arabia.” — Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al Faysal at a press conference in 2007 announcing a large portion of $20 billion in sales to the region.
Consider the strategic implications of The 1979 Siege of Mecca and our CIA's involvement in directing the operations against the zealots. Yaroslav Trofimov argues that this is one of the major elements of bin Laden's anger toward the United States.
The Saudis are a massive source of Wahhabi propaganda. Trofimov also states that the royal Saudis had to make a deal with the clerics before the attack on the zealots to spread Islamic extremism around the world.
I could go on but this should illustrate some of the influences the Saudis have had on the United States over the years. Since the allies helped establish its borders after WWI, the Saudis have had a very close relationship with Americans.
Standing on two corners to the entrance of the hotel, were about 30 people holding signs; a Vietnam veteran had extras for people like me without a sign. There was a nice big banner to greet Rumsfeld "War Criminal". And smaller ones about 9/11, torture "Who would Jesus torture?", and anti-war messages. A woman with a son in Iraq was there (she said all the Marines know, they know everything she kept saying). She would step off the curb and into the street, just like she was on the front line. Another protester drove up from San Diego because, "It isn't everyday you have a war criminal in your backyard". The protesters were an ordinary looking crowd, nothing peculiar about them. I'll bet Beck's listeners are a strange lot though.
Standing on a corner with a signal allowed more visibility. A few curious people rolled down their windows asking questions. No one knew Rumsfeld was in town. (We learned something about night protests too. White signs with very large black stenciled letters are the most visual.)
A young activist went into the hotel to make a citizen's arrest of Rumsfeld, and the local police said he would have to wait to speak to the Secret Service. The Secret Service told him to get the hell out of here. BTW, why does Rumsfeld have Secret Service?
This same activist challenged the mom with the son in Iraq to tell him to resist or he is culpable. She said they can't do anything, just their jobs. Her son was trained to be a mechanic, now he just sniffs for bombs (without a dog she said - I asked).
Attending the Churchill dinner, were a quite a few white-haired old men in luxury automobiles turning into the hotel. Rumsfeld received an award, Statesman of the Year (I guess he does tell a lot of big lies). One old geezer attending was in the wrong lane to turn left; he shouldn't have been driving. These wealthy jerks are out-of-touch with America and reality, for years. There were several black limos. One of the limo drivers gave us a thumbs up, then quickly rolled up his window.
Sadly, down the street at Fashion Island shopping mall, the parking lot was overflowing with consumers, just busy shopping. Many honked as they went by, only a few yelled something in disagreement - most just drove by.
The protesters I spoke with noticed that these protests are attended by a diverse group: liberals, conservatives, libertarians, and that the labels don't mean much anymore. We are united against a common enemy, our differences are minor in comparison. I didn't even know who organized the protest. It turned out it was a local 9/11 meetup group.
BTW, don't miss buckeye's post on this thread about the Saudis. Good research.
Thanks for the heads up on this robin. I need to read the entire thread as yesterday was frittered away watching college football. It seems RP is getting the standard character assassination treatment, but more interesting to me is that his supporters are also being read out of the political process. I can't recall a political strategy like this before; the complete and total alienation of a voting bloc. It's almost as if THEY want us marginalized and clustered all together. Thank goodness I'm not conspiratorial.
I can't recall a political strategy like this before; the complete and total alienation of a voting bloc. It's almost as if THEY want us marginalized and clustered all together. Thank goodness I'm not conspiratorial.
that's right!
Well, it won't work, we are not all this or that. We are every age group, every demographic, every political persuasion. For example, the protester from San Diego does not even agree with many things Ron Paul believes in. She is for legalized abortion, she is a liberal, BUT, she is an active Ron Paul supporter, attends the meetup group there and will be voting for him. Another was saying how he would have to register as a Republican to vote for Paul. He found it distasteful but necessary. To me, this is an amazing moment in politics.
Robin, I do not tend to blame Rumsfeld for what his NeoCon handlers were requiring of him. But I support your right to protest and call attention to any issue you think is noteworthy regarding his conduct as Defense Secretary. I appreciate your activism very much. Just by getting out there and showing what you think, you are asserting freedoms we all hold dear.
This is all a product of many years of error in our foreign policy. I look to the CFR authors of those policy choices, and to the President for carrying out those recommendations. I also look to the elites who have chosen to maintain these policies by selecting candidates friendly to their aims to support in the media and in academia.
There's a line in the film "Julia" based on a true story, starring Jane Fonda, Vanessa Redgrave and others, where Maximilian Schell says to Jane Fonda (something like), "We are a small group of people with nothing in common but the desire to remove Hitler". Then he lists off a number of otherwise disconnected groups. That's what I see happening today. And of course, all these groups were being hunted down by the Gestapo.
At the moment, I'm not interested in charging Rumsfeld or other Bush administration officials with war crimes, but I support your right to call for this to happen.
I do call for Bush's immediate impeachment for his cabinet's violations of our domestic constitutional civil liberties.
I'm proud to have the privilege of exchanging views with someone so active in expressing strong concerns over our liberties and the ethics of our international policy. Please keep up the good work. When you indicate that you believe something has been immoral in our foreign policy, you're walking in the footsteps of Henry David Thoreau.
Anti-Saudi propaganda by the neocons is a false flag. The House of Saud is a lot friendlier to both the US and Israel than any alternative, and the neocons know it. I think that their goal in phony "protests" over weapons sales to the Saudis is to make it look as though AIPAC and the neocons don't have full sway over mideast policy, when in fact they do. Mubarak in Egypt and the House of Saud are partners with the US and Israel in the NWO plan to carve up the middle east, not opponents.
The notion that anyone in this country is an "Islamofascist" is ridiculous on its face and will only be bought by the 30 percenters who are hopeless idiots anyway.
Anyone who even takes the word "Islamofascist" seriously is too stupid for words.
The word was coined by the Trotskyist Christopher Hitchens, who has now become the darling of the neocon "right wing" because he shares their views on war in the Middle East. That tells you how principled GOP "conservatives" are when they start using the catch phrases of Bolshies.
Our military strategy in the Mideast continually benefits the Saudis. Consider the war in Kuwait, and the Iraq war now. Consider our support of Sunnis during the Iran-Iraq war. We provide them with high-tech military hardware. Quote: The Saudi foreign minister said Saudi Arabia is a peaceful country in an area of tremendous threat and upheaval. “So it is not strange that it is trying to acquire a posture of defense that will protect the interests and safety of the people of Saudi Arabia.” — Saudi Foreign Minister Prince Saud al Faysal at a press conference in 2007 announcing a large portion of $20 billion in sales to the region. Remember the complex B.C.C.I affair, which is rumored to have helped funnel money from Saudi Arabia and the CIA to Pakistan for nuclear weapons development. Consider the strategic implications of The 1979 Siege of Mecca and our CIA's involvement in directing the operations against the zealots. Yaroslav Trofimov argues that this is one of the major elements of bin Laden's anger toward the United States. The Saudis are a massive source of Wahhabi propaganda. Trofimov also states that the royal Saudis had to make a deal with the clerics before the attack on the zealots to spread Islamic extremism around the world. The Bush family's links to the Saudis are legendary. The Saudi Lobby in DC is legendary. Lindsey Williams argues that America has a deal with OPEC to buy their oil in dollars in exchange for securities purchases. It is no secret that the Saudis lobby to keep oil denominated in dollars, and do own a sizable portion of our national debt. I could go on but this should illustrate some of the influences the Saudis have had on the United States over the years. Since the allies helped establish its borders after WWI, the Saudis have had a very close relationship with Americans.
For all your dust-up about the Saudis, you are either purposely or naively missing the elephant in the room - the nation whose lobby is #2 most powerful in DC; the nation we send $3+ Billion foreign aid per year; the nation we protect from numerous UN resolutions and censure; the nation that is a paraiha on the world's stage due to its brutal occupation of land it has stolen; a nation that refuses to sign a mutual defense treaty with us or anybody else but whose heads of state prod us to start wars to benefit it - Iraq and now Iran.
The Saudis' negative influence on our nation is peanuts as compared to Israel's. The Saudis lobby is a laugh if that's what you mean by "legendary" - in fact American Jews speak derisively about the Arab lobbies' lack of organization and lack of influence and support from the general public. Even major US corporations ( apart from oil companies) do not support the Arab lobbies for fear of retaliation from the Israel Lobby. I suggest you read the article at the following url:
As for Yaroslav Trofimov's information, I would suggest to you that due to Mr. Trofimov's tribal membership, he writes with a purpose and with a particular slant. I noticed via Google hits that he is embraced by IsraelFirst journals and organizations and blogs.
We don't need Trofimov's biased judgement of what constitutes "a major element" of Bin Laden's anger towards the USA. We only need to listen to Bin Laden's words. OBL himself has reiterated the 4 reasons why he hates us - our resolute unyielding support of Israel in spite of its brutal treatment of the Palestinians ( that's the biggie most important one in OBL's eyes) - our occupation ( and desecration) of Islamic Holy places - in Iraq and formerly in Saudi Arabia - our support of several brutal strongmen in Muslim lands like Mubarrek in Egypt, the Saudi Princes in S.A., Musharref in Pakistan, the Prince Abdullah of Jordan - our excessive use and abuse of Muslim oil resources paid for at minimal prices - so our economies flourish while Muslims live in poverty
Our fealty to Israel come hell or high water is the main sticking point with OBL and other fundies. End of story.
With regards to the "complex" B.C.C.I affair you forget to include the name of Israeli Iran-Contra merchant, Adnan Khashoggi, and primo legal advisor Robert Altman. Regardless of who was involved, the BCCI affair was in the main about money laundering from drugs and illegal weapons sales with so many interests participating so it's hard for me to understand your claim that the Saudi Arabian gov't used BCCI to furnish nukes to Pakistan. That's a stretch.
With regards to weapons, the US is a major weapons manufacturer and seller on the world scene, like it or not. The Saudis are just one of our nation's creepy clients. What's your beef? At least the Saudis pay top dollar for our weapons. They don't free-load like Israel. And the Saudis don't use the weapons to bully its neighbors ( like Israel does to Lebanon) or to steal land from others ( like Israel does to the Palestinians 24/7). Moreover Israel doesn't care if the US sells weapons to the Saudis because Israel gets to whine and get more foreign aid as a result. Also Israel doesn't fear attack from Saudi Arabia. In the article url about Arab and Israel lobbies, it clearly states that there is little conflict between the 2 sides because the Israel lobby could care less about the US selling Arab nations arms.
The war in Iraq had all to do with the USA protecting its oil interests in the ME. The US did not need any urging from Saudi Arabia to beat back Uncle Saddam. And Bush Sr. got a UN resolution supporting Gulf War I - it wasn't like the Saudis were the only ones wanting Saddam cut down to size. One of the biggest financial backers of Gulf War I was Japan. Also, it was due to pressure from the Gulf nations that Bush Sr was not allowed to invade Iraq. The Saudis and other Arab nations PREVENTED a full scale invasion of Iraq during Gulf War I. They did not want a de-stabilizing ME war in their backyards ( unlike Israel who enjoys Arab states being de-stabilized and Muslims offed by the kazillions).
As for the madras - so what? - you think these schools cause hatred for us? Hello, it's our governments aggression in the ME and our gov'ts stalwart defense of Israel inspite of its war crimes that is the major source of Muslim hostility to us. It's our flawed foreign policy that's damaging our credibility far more than any madras cleric teacher could hope to achieve.
If you have not already read Drs. Mearsheimer's and Walt's book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" I suggest you do. Read pages 141 - 146 wherein the 2 scholars make it very clear that Saudi Arabia specifically, the oil industry, and the Arab lobbies are modest if not trivial influences on our nation's foreign policies.
Keep this quote in your mind when you consider negative influence of a lobby group:
"Real Insiders: A pro-Israel lobby and an F.B.I. sting"
... aipac’s leaders can be immoderately frank about the group’s influence. At dinner that night with Steven Rosen, I mentioned a controversy that had enveloped aipac in 1992. David Steiner, a New Jersey real-estate developer who was then serving as aipac’s president, was caught on tape boasting that he had “cut a deal” with the Administration of George H. W. Bush to provide more aid to Israel. Steiner also said that he was “negotiating” with the incoming Clinton Administration over the appointment of a pro-Israel Secretary of State. “We have a dozen people in his”-Clinton’s-“headquarters … and they are all going to get big jobs,” Steiner said. Soon after the tape’s existence was disclosed, Steiner resigned his post. I asked Rosen if aipac suffered a loss of influence after the Steiner affair. A half smile appeared on his face, and he pushed a napkin across the table. “You see this napkin?” he said. “In twenty- four hours, we could have the signatures of seventy senators on this napkin.”...
I only meant that we give the average Arab more reason to hate us because of our support for governments like the Sauds. Funny thing, it Osama bin Laden and the other fundy nuts that want oppressive laws like those found in SA.
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
For all your dust-up about the Saudis, you are either purposely or naively missing the elephant in the room...
I don't think I'm missing anything at all. I'm interested in eliminating all types of foreign interference withing our government, not just the Zionist lobby.
I would suggest to you that due to Mr. Trofimov's tribal membership, he writes with a purpose and with a particular slant.
Are you denying that the CIA participated in the hostage crisis? What is your specific objection to the basic facts I'm citing here?
With regards to the "complex" B.C.C.I affair you forget to include the name of Israeli Iran-Contra merchant . . .
You asked for examples of Saudi involvement in our government and I gave them to you. I'm confident that you can provide all of us with a long list of Jewish and Israeli interference.
The Saudis are just one of our nation's creepy clients. What's your beef?
I think we should disengage with the entire region. I hope those are Ron Paul's intentions. I would start the disengagement by cutting weapons sales off completely to the region.
As for the madras - so what? - you think these schools cause hatred for us?
It's part of the radicalization of the Islamic world, yes. I especially object to the Saudi mosque construction here in the United States. We've had hundreds going up around the country since the 1979 grand mosque incident.
If you have not already read Drs. Mearsheimer's and Walt's book "The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy" I suggest you do. Read pages 141 - 146 wherein the 2 scholars make it very clear that Saudi Arabia specifically, the oil industry, and the Arab lobbies are modest if not trivial influences on our nation's foreign policies.
Trivial? I would hardly call the past 35 years of our petrodollar based economy trivial.
"Real Insiders: A pro-Israel lobby and an F.B.I. sting"
Once again, you asked for a list of Saudi interferences, and I gave them to you. You dispute them, fine but the longstanding and close ties between the American Establishment and the Saudis is of public record. You come up with Israeli counter-examples, and I say no doubt.
well I think youve missed something important here.. they are linked..you need to peel back a few layers.. the Saudis and the Israelis .. and throw in the Turks as well all linked for the same reason.. have you ever researched the Saudi royal family? .. that might be a place to start
I failed to mention the Saudi connection to 9/11.. google PTECH & PROMIS & the Saudis..
No doubt, Zipporah. The truly radical Islamists point this out every day, from what I understand. They identify the royal Sauds with Zionism. All the more reason to back out of the region and let nature run its course. If Americans want to donate their money and blood Lincoln-brigade style, they can join either side. They may not be welcome to come home, though.
We have our own interests — and borders to defend.
I agree.. I edited my post and you may not have seen my reference to PTECH & PROMIS and the Saudis.. The Turks too had a hand in all this.. read what Indira Singh had to say on this.. very disturbing.
Thanks for the pointers. I don't know where to start looking for information on these terms, plus the Singh commentary, but I'll search for them when I get a chance.
The tale begins almost right after the 9/11 attack, when, in October of 2001, handful of ex-Ptech employees alerted the FBI to evidence indicating that the firm had Saudi terror connections.
Saudi terrorists, Saudi money, and JP Morgan Chase
Almost a year later the Boston FBI had still done nothing about it. They had, in fact, shut down their cursory investigation and taken no action.
Thus Ptech was still operating at the highest levels of American society in the Spring of 2002, when the firm showed up hustling business at the door of Wall Street’s JP Morgan Chase. The question is “why?”
On its surface, the answer appears to be “money.” Lots and lots of Saudi money.
Indira Singh, who later became a whistleblower, was an unwitting eyewitness to the “train wreck.”
“I invited Ptech to come down and give a presentation and a customized demo to JP Morgan Chase,” states Singh, who was a consultant to the bank on “risk architecture,” an arcane software specialty which calculates enterprise risk. In one of the story’s many ironic twists, Singh was at the time designing a system to help JP Morgan Chase detect terrorist money laundering.
When Ptech showed up, Singh quickly realized that she was witnessing her worst fears about compromised security come true. “Within half an hour on the premises, I knew something was up,” she says. “They had almost immediately raised about six of my red flags, to the point where I walked over to my desk and picked up the phone, and began making phone calls.”
She talked with a respected industry figure who had once worked at Ptech. “He was shocked to learn that I had invited Ptech on the premises. He told me the company belonged to Yasin Qadi.”
In the course of what would otherwise have been just another day at the bank, Indira Singh made the amazing discovery that the firm in front of her at the moment was owned by Saudis, including Yasin Qadi, with suspected as well as proven ties to the terrorists who carried out the 9/11 attack.
All this left her feeling more than a little surprised."
I don't think I'm missing anything at all. I'm interested in eliminating all types of foreign interference withing our government, not just the Zionist lobby.
Are you denying that the CIA participated in the hostage crisis? What is your specific objection to the basic facts I'm citing here?
You asked for examples of Saudi involvement in our government and I gave them to you. I'm confident that you can provide all of us with a long list of Jewish and Israeli interference.
It's part of the radicalization of the Islamic world, yes. I especially object to the Saudi mosque construction here in the United States. We've had hundreds going up around the country since the 1979 grand mosque incident.
Trivial? I would hardly call the past 35 years of our petrodollar based economy trivial.
Once again, you asked for a list of Saudi interferences, and I gave them to you. You dispute them, fine but the longstanding and close ties between the American Establishment and the Saudis is of public record. You come up with Israeli counter-examples, and I say no doubt.
Let's eliminate both.
Your initial harangue against the Saudis' so-called interference in our national affairs in message #47 and #32 said nothing about eliminating all lobby groups including the "leviathan" one ie. the Israel Lobby. This is the first I've read of your desire to eliminate all lobby groups. I would agree with you that would be a fine goal. But I'd also qualify that goal by saying that we should start with the biggest and most influential one first ie. AIPAC. Would you agree?
With regards to some of your new points about the Saudis - I disagree with most of them particularly the ones regarding the start of AQ linked to the Mosque hi- jacking and the Saudis insisting that OPEC use the greenback and the Saudis funding the construction of mosques stateside.
a. AQ had its beginnings vis-a-vis our meddling in the Soviet -Afghan War. - Brezinski and Carter gave the go-ahead to the CIA to train the mujahideen to fight the Russians. OBL himself was trained in that stupid CIA project and it was in Afghanistan that OBL suddenly realized how the Muslims were being used as proxy fighters/as pawns in the Cold War that existed between the Soviets and America. AQ's formation was an unintended consequence of the CIA training of and financial aid to the mujahideen.
Zbigniew Brezinski brags about the project. He told an interviewer in 1998 that the U.S. began funnelling aid to the mujahideen terrorists six months before the Soviet Union intervened, with the intention of drawing the Soviets into their own Vietnam.
Robin Cook, who was Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs of the United Kingdom from 1997 to 2001, is quoted as saying on 07/08/05:
"Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians. Inexplicably, and with disastrous consequences, it never appears to have occurred to Washington that once Russia was out of the way, Bin Laden's organisation would turn its attention to the west."
Our government created the monster called AQ and that monster has come back to bite its master.
b. As for the Saudis insisting that oil industry use petro dollars - I think you have things switched around regarding who benefits from this system. It's in America's interests that all OPEC oil purchases continue to be denominated in US dollars and in fact this dollar hegemony over global oil markets was a result of an agreement between the USA and Saudi Arabia in the 1970's. In fact, Saudi Arabia at an OPEC meeting this past week prevented discussions about formally switching to a basket of currencies due to the diminishing value of the greenback. Get it? Saudi Arabia argued on our nation's behalf.
Saudi Arabia and other Gulf states are experiencing record high inflation rates due to their sticking to the US $ peg. However, Israel looked out for itself recently - Israel demanded that US foreign aid be sent to it in Euros not US dollars. Nice.
Here's a decent article describing our US dollar dominence and how we extracted an agreement from OPEC in the 70's to use peg their oil sales to the greenback.
"US dollar hegemony has got to go" By Henry C K Liu 04/11/02
c. As for mosques being built in the USA - so what? Last I heard freedom of religion is a guaranteed right stateside. Ours is a tolerant pluristic society. Are you worried about those eeeevil "Islamofacsists" in our midst who might congregate in mosques funded by the Saudis? I have no doubt there are a number of FBI divisions specifically assigned to monitoring what goes on in the mosques here so you can sleep better that no AQ are hiding there.
d. As to the madras and spread of Wahabiism - it was at the direction of the Carter Admin that Saudi Arabia fuel the Afghan Islamic fundie screed. But like our CIA arming and training the mujahideen, the Saudis funding the madras came back to bite us and them. The Saudi Princes are illegitimate rulers in the eyes of fundie Islamists, btw. From a BBC article on the beginnings of "Jihad":
..."Bernard Haykel, professor of Near East studies at Princeton, believes the Saudis set in motion a process over which they lost control. The Saudis' funding of militant Islam reached a new pitch in the 1980s when, with the United States and others, they bankrolled the jihad against Soviet troops occupying Afghanistan.
The Afghan war was the crucible from which emerged al-Qaeda.
"The genie came out of the bottle," says Professor Haykel, "and the Saudis could no longer put it back in." ...
e. Btw, I have never disputed that there is a long standing relationship between Saudi Arabia and our government. What I have said is that the pluses of that relationship out weighed any minuses. Ideally it would be great if our economy was not oil based because then we would not need to involve ourselves with OPEC and the Saudis. But until be can become self-reliant in energy we will continue to need the assistence of the House of Saud.
However, I believe are in the driver's seat with regards to the Saudis and they play a beneficial role by running interference for us at OPEC. That is not the case with Israel. Israel is a financial parasite and a political burden of enormous proportions and its lobby groups and individuals have negative influences on our nation's ME foreign policy.