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Title: Americans believe in God -- and hell, UFOs, witches, astrology: poll (and miracles - we could use one)
Source: Raw Story
URL Source: http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Americ ... n_God_and_hell_U_12042007.html
Published: Dec 4, 2007
Author: AFP
Post Date: 2007-12-04 17:15:46 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 1411
Comments: 110

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God and signicant numbers also think that UFOs, the devil and ghosts exist, a poll showed Tuesday.

The survey by Harris Online showed that 82 percent of adult Americans believe in God and a slightly smaller percentage -- 79 percent -- believe in miracles.

More than 70 percent of the 2,455 adults surveyed between November 7 and 13 said they believe in heaven and angels, while more than six in 10 said they believed in hell and the devil.

Almost equal numbers said they believe in Darwin's theory of evolution (42 percent) -- the belief that populations evolve over time through natural selection -- and creationism (39 percent) -- the theory that God created mankind.

Seventy percent of Americans said they were very (21 percent) or somewhat (49 percent) religious, while around one-third of those polled also said they believe in UFOs, witches and astrology.

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A few people HAVE spoken out on matters a bit more serious than simple mass swarms of objects over a town...

UFO sightings at ICBM sites and nuclear Weapons Storage Areas

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   1:42:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As, I believe it was you, was commented earlier we live in an Island Galaxy that literally has billions of star systems and likely billions of habitable planets. To think we are alone and at the pinnacle of creation, living in splendid isolation the only inhabited planet in all of the macrocosmic all that has life and the conditions to support it requires a leap of faith greater than someone who finds evidences of the hand of creation in the great evolutionary jumps, which the septics cannot explain, which are evidenced in the known fossil record.

It's sort of like those that insisted the earth was flat because if it were round we'd fall off. It's what they believe, and NO amount of evidence will change their minds.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   1:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A few people HAVE spoken out on matters a bit more serious than simple mass swarms of objects over a town...

There is quite a body of evidence that has seeped out from the military. Radar clockings of craft moving as fast as 9,000 mph, and reports of classified crash recovery teams who exist to scoop up the remains of crashed "craft".

Also Civilian Air Traffic Controllers are forbidden to talk about UFOs as well.

The septics can only maintain their stance by using strawman arguments. They will take an obvious hoax and then falsely imply that because one incident was proven a hoax that it proves that ALL sightings and reports are hoaxes. Their arguments are frequently dishonest and if all else fails they resort to argumentum ad hominem and accuse anyone who speaks of the evidence as a "kook" or a "drunk" etc., ....

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:49:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The town obviously didn't know what they saw.

...are you one of those that still insists Iraq had WMD in 2003 and that they were working on a nuclear weapon?

Nope. I strongly opposed the war from the beginning and my many hundreds of posts on various forums attest to it. I never thought Iraq had WMD.

A UFO is an unidentified flying object. It means it couldn't be identified.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   1:51:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's sort of like those that insisted the earth was flat because if it were round we'd fall off. It's what they believe, and NO amount of evidence will change their minds.

Exactly - the septics are the modern "Flat Earth Society".

I would have less trouble with their antics if they were honest but they are not. They have an agenda that they support with absolute faith and like any fanatic will brook no theories which run contrary to their point of view. They are like the people who closed the Patent Office in the 1880's because everything that could be invented had already been invented. They were the people at Kittyhawk making "catcalls" at those crazy Wright Brothers. "If man were meant to fly God would have given him wings."

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:55:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A UFO is an unidentified flying object. It means it couldn't be identified.

True, but limited. More accurately we can often rule out what it is NOT e.g., Venus, Swampgas, Drunken Seagulls, the Crazy Professor in his Flivver, etc., ...

Science means you look at the evidence and hypothesize based upon the observed phenomena. It is not science to decide something is impossible or cannot exist "a priori". Science is not conducted by fiat or decree.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:59:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Have you ever looked over the MAJESTIC 12 documents?

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:03:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not mountains of facts and evidence. Just mountains of bullshit from people who see what they want to see.

... use the logic of the septics one could categorically deny the existence of atoms. After all you cannot see them and no one has ever photographed one.

Do some Google searches.

Radar clockings of craft moving as fast as 9,000 mph...

No, not of craft. Only "something." Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec. Space craft (from Earth) can reach 5 miles/sec during re-entry.

...reports of classified crash recovery teams who exist to scoop up the remains of crashed "craft".

Reports from whom, some caller on the Art Bell show?

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   2:09:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec

Do meteors make 90 degree instanaeous turns, stop and hover, then take off at over 10,000 mph?

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:11:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No, have not. I am familiar with it but have not read them. Thanks for the link.

My late mother was quite a bug on UFOs and so I was exposed to it from an early age - it is not an area I spend a lot of time reading in but do find it interesting. I believe that an objective investigator that actually takes the time to sift through the evidence can reach no other conclusion, after one has eliminated the hoaxes and questionable incidents, that there is a solid core of evidence that suggests that we are, and have been for a long time, being visited by one or more advanced cultures. Probably to come and look at those crazy primitives on Earth.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:12:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec.

From National UFO Reporting Center

On November 14th, a major UFO incident occurred over the state of Alabama. Capt. W.J. Hull, veteran Capital Airlines pilot was a UFO skeptic. He had written an article entitled, "The Obituary of The Flying Saucers," for the Airline Pilot magazine. At 10:10 p.m. on the l4th, Capt. Hull was the pilot of Capital Flight No. 77, approaching Mobile, Alabama, enroute from New York City. Suddenly, he and his co-pilot, Peter MacIntosh, noticed a bright light through the upper part of the windshield. The plane was on a southwesterly course, and the object, looking like a meteor, was railing across their path from left to right. But, instead of burning out, the 'meteor' halted abruptly directly in front of the plane. "What the hell is it, a jet?" MacIntosh shouted. As the UFO remained a constant distance in front of the plane, Capt. Hull grabbed his microphone and called Mobile Tower. "Bates Tower, this is Capital 77. Look out toward the north and east and see if you can see a strange white light hovering in the sky."

Mobile quickly answered that a thick cloud layer was obscuring vision, and asked Capt. Hull if he thought the object was in the vicinity of Mobile. "Affirmative," Hull replied. "It is directly ahead of us and at about our altitude or slightly higher. We are right over Jackson and have descended to 10,000 feet..." Immediately after the radio exchange, the UFO began to move. It darted back and forth, rising and falling, making extremely sharp turns, sometimes changing course 90 degrees in an instant. The color and size remained constant. "MacIntosh and I sat there completely flabbergasted at this unnerving exhibition," Capt. Hull reported. After 30 seconds or more, the object ceased its violent maneuvers and again appeared to hover ahead of the plane.

About this time Mobile Tower called back: "Capital 77, we are trying to raise the Brookley Air Force Base Tower." At this moment, the UFO began another series of "crazy gyrations, lazy 8’s, square chandelles... and then shot out over the Gulf of Mexico rising at a steep angle. It diminished rapidly to a pinpoint and disappeared in the night. Elapsed time: At least two minutes. "The one thing which I can't get over," Capt. Hull stated, "is the fact that when it came, it came steeply downward; when it departed after its amazing show, it went steeply upward!"

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not mountains of facts and evidence. Just mountains of bullshit from people who see what they want to see.

Thanks for proving my comment true.

Mountains of evidences and reports which you have not read, studied, or investigated but because contentions are made that disagree with your prejudices it is dismissed as "bullshit".

Your proof of your thesis is?

Thanks for playing.

Tilt

You lose.

Play Again?

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

...there is a solid core of evidence that suggests that we are, and have been for a long time, being visited by one or more advanced cultures.

Probably to come and look at those crazy primitives on Earth.

I think there are several possibilities;

1) There are several alien races here from other star systems, each with their own reason for being here, some benevolent, some not.

2) They are time travelers from our future here to observe history, or perhaps even to MODIFY history (if that is even possible given the concept of paradoxes).

3) They are interdimensional travelers, here for unknown reasons.

4) They are from this solar system, where our civilization is a remnant of their own, where a catrostrophic disaster on the planet that used to exist between Mars and Jupiter used to be the home of our ancestors. They settled elsewhere, and we settled here and lost our knowledge over time somehow.

5) Any combination of the above.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:27:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

It is like the Crop Circle phenomena - even after the death of the two drunks paraded out as the perps the phenomena continues. So, that either proves life after death, which the septics deny, or that they weren't done by the two drunks.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

While MJ-12 may or may not be a hoax, the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit certainly did exist...

It's quite possible that the Majectic documents are simply false leads placed there to steer attention away from the IPU.

Then again, the converse of that idea might be true.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As well we know the Brookings Report exists and was written at NASA's behest.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

From what I have read and seen hinted at MJ-12 probably did/does exist. Now whether the documents were planted as a false trail to discredit the knowledge of its existence is an open question.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:56:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a link to an interesting site if you're interested in the science behind what I've alluded to...

A few things about ring singularities and other stuff..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

With my limited knowledge I cannot rule it out.

The problem of course with time travel is the paradoxes - as you point out.

As well time, as we use the term, is an artificial construct. It is the concept that our linear sequential existence represents some qauntifiable contiguous physical universe phenomena. It is still an ill defined concept. Yes we can measure the ticks on a clock and perceive that they have some duration and we use them as a unit of measure of the progression of events in the physical universe. However, it is yet to be seen if our current understanding and conceptualization can be translated into a principle that can be applied to the construction of a functioning "time machine".

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thank you. I will take a look-see.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a much shorter synopsis on the subject..

BLACK HOLES

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Much additional information can be found by looking up the term "ring singularity kerr time travel"

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There was a VERY credible sighting at O'Hare Airport in Chicago a couple years ago.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2007-12-06   6:18:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Majestic 12 is likely a hoax and Stanton Friedman is a kook. Even William Cooper denounced him.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   12:00:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

Hey genius, ever hear of an invention called radar?

From Summary Of The UFO Phenomenon

All UFOs are capable of incredible speeds. Reliable radar observations (in some cases with multiple sets at multiple frequencies) have documented speeds as high as 10,000 mph within the atmosphere, as long ago as the 1950s. High speeds alone do not distinguish the UFO, since such objects as meteors can attain similar speeds. But profiles of speed and altitude based on radar measurements and backed up by visual observations indicate that UFOs can and do undergo radical changes in both speed and altitude simultaneously. Other observations indicate a disregard for normal orientations, where the UFO is observed to hover on edge, flip upside down, or spin while hovering. A particularly characteristic maneuver is the "falling leaf", where the object swings like a pendulum from side to side while descending. This maneuver to lose altitude was first used in human flight by Paul Hill, the NASA engineer who invented the flying platform.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:30:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

You are evading the point again. It is up to the investigator to analyze and judge the credibility of evidence. Sneering comments are NOT evidence. My statement can be checked out and evaluated by anyone caring to look.

If one takes the time to dig through some of the better documented and researched evidence in the record there are reams of reports that present an intriguing and thought provoking picture.

There are a lot of witness reports from people with solid backgrounds and who have filed affadavits. Their reports, looked at over time, with comparisons made between cases, the similarities over time etc., all add up to a substantial core of evidence which tends to support the contentions that there is some there, there.

You are perfectly free to believe whatever you wish, but know that I know, as do you, that when you the proclaim the falsity of evidence which you have neither read nor examined in any fashion that you are simply demonstrating your own personal prejudices and that such assertions have no evidenciary weight whatsoever. It is simply argumentum ad hominem and bluster. It is not a sound argument it is simply "science by decree" which is NOT science.

When presented with evidence that cannot be summarily dismissed with ridicule and personal attacks it is simply denied to exist. This is not a reccomendation but is by and large how the septic movement operates and why intelligent, objective, evidence driven individuals grant them no weight and no credence beyond eviscerating their false logic. That is also what clued me in to what the septic movement is about - it is not science it is about shutting down discussion, examination, and reaching conclusions that are contrary to the "approved" paradigm. They are cranks, and government spooks, baying at the moon and complaining about its existence.

As well you left unadressed the government's action to penalize and punish people within their authority for making factual reports of their sightings. Again if it was delusion then pilots of high performance aircraft should be removed from their jobs, but intstead they are silenced by threats of punishment and left on duty. Interesting datum that. The same thing applies to Military, and civilian, Air Traffic Controllers - they are forbidden under threat of prosecution from discussing anomalous blips on their scopes. Another interesting data point.

In the end you are free to believe in the fuzz in your belly button if you wish, but please do not try to pretend that your voice is authoritative, nor any of the rest of the septic movement, when neither you nor they are willing to examine objectively the available evidence. The exposure of a given hoax does not invalidate any of the evidence that the septic leaders avoid, other than to disparage and deny, the way a Vampire avoids garlic.

I have had respect for some of your postings on other issues, here, at LF, and El Pee, so I am disinclined to be nasty, but it does not require of me to avoid pointing out the threadbare tactics and evidences of the septic movement which you seem to grant credibility.

The UFO issue is really not that big of an issue for me and I do not spend a lot of time dwelling on it - it is simply that long ago I reached the point where I was convinced by the evidence. It supports overwhelmingly the "we are being visited" hypothesis - one need only remove the blinders and start looking and reading.

I don't even feel any overwhelming desire to rub your nose in the evidence because to do so is a pointless exercise in futility. Someone who allows their opinions to be formed by argument from authority, and eschews evidence, is not particularly amenable to reason. Someone who is convinced they already know all the answers is resistant to new information and is in little danger of learning anything new.

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." ~ Winston Churchill

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles. That our understanding of the universe is the most complete possible and than anything contrary to the currently accepted theories, which are radically different from the currently accepted theories of even 20 years ago, are the final word on the subject. This is of course highly contrary to the scientific method which, if practiced honestly, requires the theory to change to accomodate any new evidence and if the new evidence is in conflict with the theory then the theory must be changed, or rewritten, to accommodate the new evidence not the evidence thrown out, denied to exist, and the messenger gutted.

Thus operating off this hidden, and unsupportable, premise it is easy for them to deny and dismiss any evidence that does not conform to their prejudices. It is not science it is faith in a mythology that they will not allow to be questioned.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles.

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

It's a good thing that there are those that can think outside the box, otherwise we'd all still be living in caves.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   15:55:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

Exactly - which is why I call them "septics" rather than the skeptics they try to claim they are. As soon as someone takes a position pro or con then one has ceased being a skeptic. The one thread that runs through the so-called "skeptics" crowd is that they are largely advocates of the "con" or "anti" position on most of the subjects they address, but they falsely and dishonestly claim neutrality. They are best viewed as advocates of the authoritarian status quo. To put it direct they ARE advocates NOT skeptics.

When they are confronted with evidence that is contrary to their prejudices and their "anti" position they shit a load of the proverbial bricks, start sputtering, and begin with the name calling. That "name-calling" is in and of itself clear evidence of the underlying closed mindset. They simply cannot step back and consider that the other side of a proposition might have some merit.

This is no different from the various 'bots one can find infesting political and current events forums. That is why it becomes quickly apparent that some unknown percentage of the so-called "Skeptics" are highly likely forms of Spooks and CoIntelPro agitators. The, less than, Amazing Randi comes readily to mind - he will not say where his funding comes from and is completely closed lipped about it.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

Absolutely - it would all be "magic". Likely you would be burned at the stake - which is what the septics would like to do to anyone who disagrees with their narrow unimaginative minds. Aircraft of any kind would be "of the Devil", computers completely inscrutable, and automobiles an abomination against God.

Take an example from more recent times - the "Cargo Cults" of New Guinea. Aircraft were completely beyond their ken and so the work of God. So, they built effigies to attract them so that God would give them some "cargo" too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   16:57:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're not perfectly spherical. If you look closely you can see that they have greater width than height. They didn't look to me like they were glowing. They looked white like seagulls.

BTW Alan, these are what geese look like when they migrate. They are dark, and don't appear as glowing orbs under bright clouds.

And PS, seagulls don't fly at high altitude nor in huge flocks in formation unless over the ocean at low altitude when following a fishing vessel..

The video I had posted with the bright objects in formation do not display the characteristics of any bird.

These are birds Alan.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   20:10:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Just because something appears to be moving fast in a video doesn't mean that it is. It's also impossible to tell how high something is without points of reference to triangulate distance.

In the other video there are no points of reference. You can't tell how high or fast the objects are moving, or how high the clouds are. The objects are neither glowing, nor orb shaped. They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-07   1:35:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

And since it is absolutely categorically impossible for them to be anything else, and only a retarded slavering drooling kook would think otherwise, it can only be birds. Therefore by decree it is birds.

See, I can do Septic Siunce too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   1:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Don't look much like birds to me. Nope, nope, nope.

"They must find it difficult... Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ~ Gerald Massey

wudidiz  posted on  2007-12-07   4:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You see flying saucers and aliens everywhere because that's what you want to see.

The UFO community has nothing but a bunch of fuzzy photos, blurry videos, and tall tales from attention seekers.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-07   11:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Somebody once observed to the eminent philosopher Wittgenstein how stupid medieval Europeans living before the time of Copernicus must have been that they could have looked at the sky and thought that the sun was circling the earth. Surely a modicum of astronomical good sense would have told them that the reverse was true. Wittgenstein is sad to have replied: "I agree, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the sun had been circling the earth."i

{snip}

”This view of the universe permeates all aspects of our life. All communities in all places at all times manifest their own view of reality in what they do. The entire culture reflects the contemporary model of reality. We are what we know. And when that body of knowledge changes so do we.”ii

The point of the foregoing quotes is simply that what a person sees in observing any phenomena is highly dependent upon what they know. If someone KNOWS that UFOs are ALWAYS something other than what the evidence suggests they might be then they will fight to preserve their view of the world by interpreting the observation in terms of what they know. Thus all observations become birds, planets, swamp gas etc., ... because based upon the observers view it could not be anything else. It agrees with their world view (paradigm) of how the universe is ordered. This principle has applicability beyond exploring the phenomena of UFOs as it can be seen at play in other realms of exploratory knowledge.

The difference between the discoverer of new phenomena and the pedestrian is that the discoverer seems to be able to look, analyze, and reach a conclusion which is at conflict with the “accepted” view. In other words the discoverer of new phenomena is able to look at the evidence and reach a conclusion which is at variance with what he or she has heretofore known to be. The viewpoint is "what does the evidence suggest" not "how do I explain this away within the accepted framework"?

So, returning to the beginning of the circle: When someone knows something cannot be when they are presented with evidence contrary to that paradigm they simply cannot see it.

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out in “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” when a new datum, observation, or theory is in conflict with the established paradigm then it will be fought, often viciously, by those who view themselves as the gatekeepers of knowledge and by those who accept upon authority the pronouncements of such gatekeepers. Generally such people are insulted, called kooks, etc., .... When the new idea represents a true revolution in how we see the universe it is frequently fought “tooth and nail”, “hammer and tongs”. Some people actually seem to feel personally threatened by new ideas.

There are some good examples of this in the history of science. Gregor Mendel who developed the basic idea and theory of the inheritablity of genetic traits was derided as a kook and upon his death his research languished for nearly 100 years before being resurrected. Today it is part of the accepted paradigm. When Alfred Wegner proposed the theory of “Continental Drift” in the 1930's he was called kook and worse. “The solid continents move? Harummmph! Absurd!” In 1958-59 (The International Geophysical Year) his theory was confirmed. We know it today as the established branch of human knowledge called “Plate Tectonics”. I could cite other examples but those suffice for my point here. And the point? That when someone knows something does not exist then they cannot and will not see it regardless of the evidence.

What comes to mind as a follow on is the development of the theory of the human circulatory system. The existing paradigm, developed in ancient Greece, was that the blood flowed through the body as a tide not unlike the ocean. In 1628 William Harvey introduced the idea of the circulatory system. This was a complete variance with the accepted view of the ancient Grecian Physician Galen which had been the standard for nearly 2,000 years. One of the common refrains of the day was: “I would rather err with Galen than be right with Harvey.”

So, the controversy surrounding UFOs and their nature is one of conflicting world views. On one hand you have those who accept the possibility, even likelihood, that other planets exist, are inhabited by intelligent beings, and may well be technologically well in advance of what is extant on Planet Earth. On the other hand you have the view that humankind on this planet is the only island outpost of intelligence in all the universe, that it occurred uniquely, and only once by pure chance. Thus even if others might, however impossible it is, exist we are at the technologic apex of all that is achievable.

The first group is willing to consider and even accept that we are not alone and are being visited by advanced civilizations who, for whatever reason, are observing us on Planet Earth. The other group violently rejects this as even a remote possibility. It is in conflict with their paradigm and they not only reject it but oppose the view violently because it is in fundamental conflict with what they know to the truth.

So, in the end those who hold to the “splendid isolation – apex of creation paradigm” cannot see UFOs as anything other than phenomena that is explainable within their framework of what they know. What they see is determined by what they know. Thus glowing orbs become “Seagulls”, a glowing object rising up out of a forested marsh becomes “Swamp Gas”.

Of course some observations are misidentification of natural phenomena explainable within the existing paradigm and this is taken, and illogically without foundation extended, to account for ALL observations regardless of evidence. In other words they would rather “Err with Randi than be right with Friedman”.

i. Burke, James, The Day The Universe Changed Pg 11, (Little, Brown and Company, 1985)
ii. Ibid., Pg 11

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   14:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Please feel free to believe as you wish, but know that when you begin stooping to insult and viturpitude I take the gloves off.

Because you are unable to conceive of something outside of your narrow and insular world view does not require me to restrict my thought to the narrow limited restricted boundaries of the confines of your mind. I go where the evidence goes not where I am told to go and I do not accept some authority's pronouncement without reserving the right to examine the evidence, question, and reach an independent conclusion. I believe in doing my thinking for myself and do not allow others to impose their viewpoint, unexamined, upon me.

You may now return to your grazing. In fact I think I hear your fellows calling: "Baaaaaaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".

Please feel free to try again when you have learned how to think for yourself.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   14:37:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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