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Religion
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Title: Americans believe in God -- and hell, UFOs, witches, astrology: poll (and miracles - we could use one)
Source: Raw Story
URL Source: http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Americ ... n_God_and_hell_U_12042007.html
Published: Dec 4, 2007
Author: AFP
Post Date: 2007-12-04 17:15:46 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 1383
Comments: 110

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God and signicant numbers also think that UFOs, the devil and ghosts exist, a poll showed Tuesday.

The survey by Harris Online showed that 82 percent of adult Americans believe in God and a slightly smaller percentage -- 79 percent -- believe in miracles.

More than 70 percent of the 2,455 adults surveyed between November 7 and 13 said they believe in heaven and angels, while more than six in 10 said they believed in hell and the devil.

Almost equal numbers said they believe in Darwin's theory of evolution (42 percent) -- the belief that populations evolve over time through natural selection -- and creationism (39 percent) -- the theory that God created mankind.

Seventy percent of Americans said they were very (21 percent) or somewhat (49 percent) religious, while around one-third of those polled also said they believe in UFOs, witches and astrology.

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FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not mountains of facts and evidence. Just mountains of bullshit from people who see what they want to see.

Thanks for proving my comment true.

Mountains of evidences and reports which you have not read, studied, or investigated but because contentions are made that disagree with your prejudices it is dismissed as "bullshit".

Your proof of your thesis is?

Thanks for playing.

Tilt

You lose.

Play Again?

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

...there is a solid core of evidence that suggests that we are, and have been for a long time, being visited by one or more advanced cultures.

Probably to come and look at those crazy primitives on Earth.

I think there are several possibilities;

1) There are several alien races here from other star systems, each with their own reason for being here, some benevolent, some not.

2) They are time travelers from our future here to observe history, or perhaps even to MODIFY history (if that is even possible given the concept of paradoxes).

3) They are interdimensional travelers, here for unknown reasons.

4) They are from this solar system, where our civilization is a remnant of their own, where a catrostrophic disaster on the planet that used to exist between Mars and Jupiter used to be the home of our ancestors. They settled elsewhere, and we settled here and lost our knowledge over time somehow.

5) Any combination of the above.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:27:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

It is like the Crop Circle phenomena - even after the death of the two drunks paraded out as the perps the phenomena continues. So, that either proves life after death, which the septics deny, or that they weren't done by the two drunks.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

While MJ-12 may or may not be a hoax, the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit certainly did exist...

It's quite possible that the Majectic documents are simply false leads placed there to steer attention away from the IPU.

Then again, the converse of that idea might be true.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As well we know the Brookings Report exists and was written at NASA's behest.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

From what I have read and seen hinted at MJ-12 probably did/does exist. Now whether the documents were planted as a false trail to discredit the knowledge of its existence is an open question.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:56:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a link to an interesting site if you're interested in the science behind what I've alluded to...

A few things about ring singularities and other stuff..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

With my limited knowledge I cannot rule it out.

The problem of course with time travel is the paradoxes - as you point out.

As well time, as we use the term, is an artificial construct. It is the concept that our linear sequential existence represents some qauntifiable contiguous physical universe phenomena. It is still an ill defined concept. Yes we can measure the ticks on a clock and perceive that they have some duration and we use them as a unit of measure of the progression of events in the physical universe. However, it is yet to be seen if our current understanding and conceptualization can be translated into a principle that can be applied to the construction of a functioning "time machine".

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thank you. I will take a look-see.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a much shorter synopsis on the subject..

BLACK HOLES

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Much additional information can be found by looking up the term "ring singularity kerr time travel"

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There was a VERY credible sighting at O'Hare Airport in Chicago a couple years ago.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2007-12-06   6:18:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Majestic 12 is likely a hoax and Stanton Friedman is a kook. Even William Cooper denounced him.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   12:00:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

Hey genius, ever hear of an invention called radar?

From Summary Of The UFO Phenomenon

All UFOs are capable of incredible speeds. Reliable radar observations (in some cases with multiple sets at multiple frequencies) have documented speeds as high as 10,000 mph within the atmosphere, as long ago as the 1950s. High speeds alone do not distinguish the UFO, since such objects as meteors can attain similar speeds. But profiles of speed and altitude based on radar measurements and backed up by visual observations indicate that UFOs can and do undergo radical changes in both speed and altitude simultaneously. Other observations indicate a disregard for normal orientations, where the UFO is observed to hover on edge, flip upside down, or spin while hovering. A particularly characteristic maneuver is the "falling leaf", where the object swings like a pendulum from side to side while descending. This maneuver to lose altitude was first used in human flight by Paul Hill, the NASA engineer who invented the flying platform.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:30:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

You are evading the point again. It is up to the investigator to analyze and judge the credibility of evidence. Sneering comments are NOT evidence. My statement can be checked out and evaluated by anyone caring to look.

If one takes the time to dig through some of the better documented and researched evidence in the record there are reams of reports that present an intriguing and thought provoking picture.

There are a lot of witness reports from people with solid backgrounds and who have filed affadavits. Their reports, looked at over time, with comparisons made between cases, the similarities over time etc., all add up to a substantial core of evidence which tends to support the contentions that there is some there, there.

You are perfectly free to believe whatever you wish, but know that I know, as do you, that when you the proclaim the falsity of evidence which you have neither read nor examined in any fashion that you are simply demonstrating your own personal prejudices and that such assertions have no evidenciary weight whatsoever. It is simply argumentum ad hominem and bluster. It is not a sound argument it is simply "science by decree" which is NOT science.

When presented with evidence that cannot be summarily dismissed with ridicule and personal attacks it is simply denied to exist. This is not a reccomendation but is by and large how the septic movement operates and why intelligent, objective, evidence driven individuals grant them no weight and no credence beyond eviscerating their false logic. That is also what clued me in to what the septic movement is about - it is not science it is about shutting down discussion, examination, and reaching conclusions that are contrary to the "approved" paradigm. They are cranks, and government spooks, baying at the moon and complaining about its existence.

As well you left unadressed the government's action to penalize and punish people within their authority for making factual reports of their sightings. Again if it was delusion then pilots of high performance aircraft should be removed from their jobs, but intstead they are silenced by threats of punishment and left on duty. Interesting datum that. The same thing applies to Military, and civilian, Air Traffic Controllers - they are forbidden under threat of prosecution from discussing anomalous blips on their scopes. Another interesting data point.

In the end you are free to believe in the fuzz in your belly button if you wish, but please do not try to pretend that your voice is authoritative, nor any of the rest of the septic movement, when neither you nor they are willing to examine objectively the available evidence. The exposure of a given hoax does not invalidate any of the evidence that the septic leaders avoid, other than to disparage and deny, the way a Vampire avoids garlic.

I have had respect for some of your postings on other issues, here, at LF, and El Pee, so I am disinclined to be nasty, but it does not require of me to avoid pointing out the threadbare tactics and evidences of the septic movement which you seem to grant credibility.

The UFO issue is really not that big of an issue for me and I do not spend a lot of time dwelling on it - it is simply that long ago I reached the point where I was convinced by the evidence. It supports overwhelmingly the "we are being visited" hypothesis - one need only remove the blinders and start looking and reading.

I don't even feel any overwhelming desire to rub your nose in the evidence because to do so is a pointless exercise in futility. Someone who allows their opinions to be formed by argument from authority, and eschews evidence, is not particularly amenable to reason. Someone who is convinced they already know all the answers is resistant to new information and is in little danger of learning anything new.

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." ~ Winston Churchill

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles. That our understanding of the universe is the most complete possible and than anything contrary to the currently accepted theories, which are radically different from the currently accepted theories of even 20 years ago, are the final word on the subject. This is of course highly contrary to the scientific method which, if practiced honestly, requires the theory to change to accomodate any new evidence and if the new evidence is in conflict with the theory then the theory must be changed, or rewritten, to accommodate the new evidence not the evidence thrown out, denied to exist, and the messenger gutted.

Thus operating off this hidden, and unsupportable, premise it is easy for them to deny and dismiss any evidence that does not conform to their prejudices. It is not science it is faith in a mythology that they will not allow to be questioned.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles.

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

It's a good thing that there are those that can think outside the box, otherwise we'd all still be living in caves.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   15:55:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

Exactly - which is why I call them "septics" rather than the skeptics they try to claim they are. As soon as someone takes a position pro or con then one has ceased being a skeptic. The one thread that runs through the so-called "skeptics" crowd is that they are largely advocates of the "con" or "anti" position on most of the subjects they address, but they falsely and dishonestly claim neutrality. They are best viewed as advocates of the authoritarian status quo. To put it direct they ARE advocates NOT skeptics.

When they are confronted with evidence that is contrary to their prejudices and their "anti" position they shit a load of the proverbial bricks, start sputtering, and begin with the name calling. That "name-calling" is in and of itself clear evidence of the underlying closed mindset. They simply cannot step back and consider that the other side of a proposition might have some merit.

This is no different from the various 'bots one can find infesting political and current events forums. That is why it becomes quickly apparent that some unknown percentage of the so-called "Skeptics" are highly likely forms of Spooks and CoIntelPro agitators. The, less than, Amazing Randi comes readily to mind - he will not say where his funding comes from and is completely closed lipped about it.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

Absolutely - it would all be "magic". Likely you would be burned at the stake - which is what the septics would like to do to anyone who disagrees with their narrow unimaginative minds. Aircraft of any kind would be "of the Devil", computers completely inscrutable, and automobiles an abomination against God.

Take an example from more recent times - the "Cargo Cults" of New Guinea. Aircraft were completely beyond their ken and so the work of God. So, they built effigies to attract them so that God would give them some "cargo" too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   16:57:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're not perfectly spherical. If you look closely you can see that they have greater width than height. They didn't look to me like they were glowing. They looked white like seagulls.

BTW Alan, these are what geese look like when they migrate. They are dark, and don't appear as glowing orbs under bright clouds.

And PS, seagulls don't fly at high altitude nor in huge flocks in formation unless over the ocean at low altitude when following a fishing vessel..

The video I had posted with the bright objects in formation do not display the characteristics of any bird.

These are birds Alan.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   20:10:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Just because something appears to be moving fast in a video doesn't mean that it is. It's also impossible to tell how high something is without points of reference to triangulate distance.

In the other video there are no points of reference. You can't tell how high or fast the objects are moving, or how high the clouds are. The objects are neither glowing, nor orb shaped. They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-07   1:35:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

And since it is absolutely categorically impossible for them to be anything else, and only a retarded slavering drooling kook would think otherwise, it can only be birds. Therefore by decree it is birds.

See, I can do Septic Siunce too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   1:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Don't look much like birds to me. Nope, nope, nope.

"They must find it difficult... Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ~ Gerald Massey

wudidiz  posted on  2007-12-07   4:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

You see flying saucers and aliens everywhere because that's what you want to see.

The UFO community has nothing but a bunch of fuzzy photos, blurry videos, and tall tales from attention seekers.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-07   11:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Somebody once observed to the eminent philosopher Wittgenstein how stupid medieval Europeans living before the time of Copernicus must have been that they could have looked at the sky and thought that the sun was circling the earth. Surely a modicum of astronomical good sense would have told them that the reverse was true. Wittgenstein is sad to have replied: "I agree, but I wonder what it would have looked like if the sun had been circling the earth."i

{snip}

”This view of the universe permeates all aspects of our life. All communities in all places at all times manifest their own view of reality in what they do. The entire culture reflects the contemporary model of reality. We are what we know. And when that body of knowledge changes so do we.”ii

The point of the foregoing quotes is simply that what a person sees in observing any phenomena is highly dependent upon what they know. If someone KNOWS that UFOs are ALWAYS something other than what the evidence suggests they might be then they will fight to preserve their view of the world by interpreting the observation in terms of what they know. Thus all observations become birds, planets, swamp gas etc., ... because based upon the observers view it could not be anything else. It agrees with their world view (paradigm) of how the universe is ordered. This principle has applicability beyond exploring the phenomena of UFOs as it can be seen at play in other realms of exploratory knowledge.

The difference between the discoverer of new phenomena and the pedestrian is that the discoverer seems to be able to look, analyze, and reach a conclusion which is at conflict with the “accepted” view. In other words the discoverer of new phenomena is able to look at the evidence and reach a conclusion which is at variance with what he or she has heretofore known to be. The viewpoint is "what does the evidence suggest" not "how do I explain this away within the accepted framework"?

So, returning to the beginning of the circle: When someone knows something cannot be when they are presented with evidence contrary to that paradigm they simply cannot see it.

As Thomas Kuhn pointed out in “The Structure of Scientific Revolutions” when a new datum, observation, or theory is in conflict with the established paradigm then it will be fought, often viciously, by those who view themselves as the gatekeepers of knowledge and by those who accept upon authority the pronouncements of such gatekeepers. Generally such people are insulted, called kooks, etc., .... When the new idea represents a true revolution in how we see the universe it is frequently fought “tooth and nail”, “hammer and tongs”. Some people actually seem to feel personally threatened by new ideas.

There are some good examples of this in the history of science. Gregor Mendel who developed the basic idea and theory of the inheritablity of genetic traits was derided as a kook and upon his death his research languished for nearly 100 years before being resurrected. Today it is part of the accepted paradigm. When Alfred Wegner proposed the theory of “Continental Drift” in the 1930's he was called kook and worse. “The solid continents move? Harummmph! Absurd!” In 1958-59 (The International Geophysical Year) his theory was confirmed. We know it today as the established branch of human knowledge called “Plate Tectonics”. I could cite other examples but those suffice for my point here. And the point? That when someone knows something does not exist then they cannot and will not see it regardless of the evidence.

What comes to mind as a follow on is the development of the theory of the human circulatory system. The existing paradigm, developed in ancient Greece, was that the blood flowed through the body as a tide not unlike the ocean. In 1628 William Harvey introduced the idea of the circulatory system. This was a complete variance with the accepted view of the ancient Grecian Physician Galen which had been the standard for nearly 2,000 years. One of the common refrains of the day was: “I would rather err with Galen than be right with Harvey.”

So, the controversy surrounding UFOs and their nature is one of conflicting world views. On one hand you have those who accept the possibility, even likelihood, that other planets exist, are inhabited by intelligent beings, and may well be technologically well in advance of what is extant on Planet Earth. On the other hand you have the view that humankind on this planet is the only island outpost of intelligence in all the universe, that it occurred uniquely, and only once by pure chance. Thus even if others might, however impossible it is, exist we are at the technologic apex of all that is achievable.

The first group is willing to consider and even accept that we are not alone and are being visited by advanced civilizations who, for whatever reason, are observing us on Planet Earth. The other group violently rejects this as even a remote possibility. It is in conflict with their paradigm and they not only reject it but oppose the view violently because it is in fundamental conflict with what they know to the truth.

So, in the end those who hold to the “splendid isolation – apex of creation paradigm” cannot see UFOs as anything other than phenomena that is explainable within their framework of what they know. What they see is determined by what they know. Thus glowing orbs become “Seagulls”, a glowing object rising up out of a forested marsh becomes “Swamp Gas”.

Of course some observations are misidentification of natural phenomena explainable within the existing paradigm and this is taken, and illogically without foundation extended, to account for ALL observations regardless of evidence. In other words they would rather “Err with Randi than be right with Friedman”.

i. Burke, James, The Day The Universe Changed Pg 11, (Little, Brown and Company, 1985)
ii. Ibid., Pg 11

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   14:16:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Please feel free to believe as you wish, but know that when you begin stooping to insult and viturpitude I take the gloves off.

Because you are unable to conceive of something outside of your narrow and insular world view does not require me to restrict my thought to the narrow limited restricted boundaries of the confines of your mind. I go where the evidence goes not where I am told to go and I do not accept some authority's pronouncement without reserving the right to examine the evidence, question, and reach an independent conclusion. I believe in doing my thinking for myself and do not allow others to impose their viewpoint, unexamined, upon me.

You may now return to your grazing. In fact I think I hear your fellows calling: "Baaaaaaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa".

Please feel free to try again when you have learned how to think for yourself.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   14:37:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

100

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   14:38:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This might be a little late in the game, but I don't see why xx% of Americans believing in witches is weird. There are probably 5 million of us in the US, not to mention tribal witches all over the world.

Shut your whore mouth, Mr. President.

Indrid Cold  posted on  2007-12-07   14:46:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This might be a little late in the game, but I don't see why xx% of Americans believing in witches is weird. There are probably 5 million of us in the US, not to mention tribal witches all over the world.

Because it is at conflict with their paradigm i.e., world view.

At this time we have two warring philosophical views: Materialism and Spiritualism.

Philosophically it is a matter of how one views the nature of fundamental existence.

Is the ultimate reality the physical universe and the contructs of it?

Or

Is the ultimate nature of reality the spiritual i.e., that existence extends beyond the dross reality of the physical universe?

My viewpoint is rather more of a Buddhist one i.e., that the greatest reality is awareness and that the self exists above and beyond the physical universe.

Witchcraft, which I am not a practioner of, is simply nothing more, in my view, than the empirical application of the nature of what we are i.e., spiritual beings, in creating effects in the physical universe. Some of it is simply ritual and some of it is simply calling upon those abilities which we all have in some measure. Some individuals have greater and lesser degrees of ability of what has been termed PSI abilities. Witchcraft, through its rituals, is simply calling upon those PSI abilities and the ability of the Witch to create affects in the physical universe through the use of those talents. Separating the ritual from the actual abilities exercised would be an exploration of no small triviality but would require a considerable amount of research.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   15:12:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

is simply nothing more, in my view, than the empirical application of the nature of what we are i.e., spiritual beings, in creating effects in the physical universe. Some of it is simply ritual and some of it is simply calling upon those abilities which we all have in some measure. Some individuals have greater and lesser degrees of ability of what has been termed PSI abilities. Witchcraft, through its rituals, is simply calling upon those PSI abilities and the ability of the Witch to create affects in the physical universe through the use of those talents.

I'd agree with that assessment. Of course, skeptics may say that no matter which type of witch you're talking about, they're all self-deluding and ineffective, so they don't count.

In which case I'd like to refer Mr. Skeptic to his local meteorologist.

Shut your whore mouth, Mr. President.

Indrid Cold  posted on  2007-12-07   15:36:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I'd agree with that assessment. Of course, skeptics may say that no matter which type of witch you're talking about, they're all self-deluding and ineffective, so they don't count.

The so-called skeptics, who do not actually practice skepticism, are scared out of their pants by anything which cannot be explained within their narrow Materialist framework. They are inhabiting a self limiting paradigm. If they were not such nasty and ill mannered boors I would probably pity them for that they inhabit such a small world. As well they are under heavy psychological manipulation as some of the prime moooooooooovers in the Septic Community appear to have ties to CoIntelPro type activities. They are agents of a power which would bring a great darkness to be.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   16:02:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-10   13:20:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

So, the controversy surrounding UFOs and their nature is one of conflicting world views. On one hand you have those who accept the possibility, even likelihood, that other planets exist, are inhabited by intelligent beings, and may well be technologically well in advance of what is extant on Planet Earth. On the other hand you have the view that humankind on this planet is the only island outpost of intelligence in all the universe, that it occurred uniquely, and only once by pure chance. Thus even if others might, however impossible it is, exist we are at the technologic apex of all that is achievable.

As a follow-up on this point I might point out this is also why the Darwinian versus Creationist debate is so heated. Materialism can brook no opposition.

Without expressing a viewpoint of my own - the Darwinian/Evolutionist viewpoint has been shot full of buckshot and the Darwinian Camp is becoming increasingly nasty as their position continues to erode, because it is NOT supported by the available evidence. This becomes clearer if you read some of the arguments presented by the leading lights of the Creationist argument. Even more galling to the Darwinists is that a few well educated Scientists have defected to the Creationist viewpoint. They were convinced by the evidence, or lack thereof, in support of the Darwinist Religion.

As well many of the supporters of the Darwinian paradigm are atheists and oppose creationism in any form NOT because of science but because their philosophical materialist viewpoint does not allow them to accept the possibility because they KNOW that God does not exist and therefore creationism is impossible. Again it is the same argument, logically speaking, as the so-called UFO Skeptics, who again do not truly practice skepticism but are in FACT advocates for the existing officially propounded paradigm.

Taking this a step further the Darwinians CANNOT, and again they are largely the same septics that are "UFO Skeptics" (i.e., "anti-" advocates for a point of view) accept that some UFOs might be operated by intelligent beings from somewhere else as that violates their world view as well. Remember that part of the septic/Darwinian world view is that: "...the view that humankind on this planet is the only island outpost of intelligence in all the universe, that it occurred uniquely, and only once by pure chance. ..." If they accept that there is intelligent life elsewhere than Island Earth that destroys the Darwinian argument that life is a "chance occurrence that occurred by pure chance and is unique to Planet Earth". Once that is accepted it is bye bye Darwin.

As one can see, and I could add another line of argument i.e., the photographs of Mars and the Moon which appear to show artificial structures on the planetary surface, the Materialist viewpoint is eroding and it is being eroded by the accumulating weight of evidence that is contrary to their pronouncements. Of course I might point out that the septics go ballistic over those photographs too - again they do not agree with the viewpoint the septics push and thus since the evidence is contrary it must be shouted down and suppressed. Heaven forbid that it should be objectively examined.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-10   14:08:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Bookmark.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-10   14:41:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

This becomes clearer if you read some of the arguments presented by the leading lights of the Creationist argument.

I'm coming to the table here late, but this controversy/subject is intriguing.

Creationism suffers from not being a provable theory. It is pretty much a "default" theory. That is, it's the theory one may believe when no other option looks attractive, or at least *until* another option becomes attractive at which time it's subject to being abandoned until that alternate theory loses appeal. If it were a provable theory, then it could stand on its own regardless of what other theories abound.

I myself believe in a higher power, but I have no problem accepting that evolution was the mechanism of our creation by that power. For me, in fact, it's kinda a cool idea to think that the Creator authored the laws of the universe such that life could arise. As a programmer myself, I see that as the ultimate programming job, if you will, and as one, totally, totally awesome. More awesome in fact than just sitting back and speaking stuff into existence. For me, that's less enthralling. Almost "cheating" if that were applicable but of course God is far beyond such judgments from any of us.

As well many of the supporters of the Darwinian paradigm are atheists and oppose creationism in any form NOT because of science but because their philosophical materialist viewpoint does not allow them to accept the possibility

In which case they are not true scientists, as a true scientist will not form his conclusions around his preconceived ideas.

That's a valid criticism for those doing that, but it's no less what many creationists do who refuse to believe anything other than creationism only because it similarly contradicts their preconceived world. That's not science either.

Taking this a step further the Darwinians CANNOT, and again they are largely the same septics that are "UFO Skeptics" (i.e., "anti-" advocates for a point of view) accept that some UFOs might be operated by intelligent beings from somewhere else as that violates their world view as well.

This is the first time I've heard of ET life being used against Evolutionists. I would expect ET life instead to play against creationists insofar as Christ died once for all time, and since he was human, it implies there is no other intelligent life throughout the universe that is in need of the gospel or redemption via the cross. Is it possible that intelligent ET's might exist out there that have neither sin nor knowledge of good and evil, which we humans inherited as per garden of Eden? That's hard to imagine.

What the chances are of life arising via random chance is speculation only. Some claim the odds are so ridiculously low that the universe would have to be some 5000 billion years old for it to have a reasonable chance of happening (contrasted to the current belief of it between only 10-15 billion years old), but that assumes the scientists have those odds right which is pure speculation.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2007-12-10   15:43:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As a programmer myself, I see that as the ultimate programming job, if you will, and as one, totally, totally awesome.

DNA is very much like a binary coded program, in fact it is strikingly similar.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-13   11:34:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

What the chances are of life arising via random chance is speculation only. Some claim the odds are so ridiculously low that the universe would have to be some 5000 billion years old for it to have a reasonable chance of happening (contrasted to the current belief of it between only 10-15 billion years old), but that assumes the scientists have those odds right which is pure speculation.

Life could be very common across the Universe. In fact, every single star might have at least one planet with life on it.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-13   11:37:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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