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Title: Americans believe in God -- and hell, UFOs, witches, astrology: poll (and miracles - we could use one)
Source: Raw Story
URL Source: http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Americ ... n_God_and_hell_U_12042007.html
Published: Dec 4, 2007
Author: AFP
Post Date: 2007-12-04 17:15:46 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 1633
Comments: 110

An overwhelming majority of Americans believe in God and signicant numbers also think that UFOs, the devil and ghosts exist, a poll showed Tuesday.

The survey by Harris Online showed that 82 percent of adult Americans believe in God and a slightly smaller percentage -- 79 percent -- believe in miracles.

More than 70 percent of the 2,455 adults surveyed between November 7 and 13 said they believe in heaven and angels, while more than six in 10 said they believed in hell and the devil.

Almost equal numbers said they believe in Darwin's theory of evolution (42 percent) -- the belief that populations evolve over time through natural selection -- and creationism (39 percent) -- the theory that God created mankind.

Seventy percent of Americans said they were very (21 percent) or somewhat (49 percent) religious, while around one-third of those polled also said they believe in UFOs, witches and astrology.

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I suppose USAF Captain Ruppelt must be a drunk as well as the F-86 pilot that shot at a UFO, eh?

From F-86 intercepts and shoots at saucer-shaped UFO

In the summer of 1952 a United States Air Force F-86 jet interceptor shot at a flying saucer. This fact, like so many others that make up the full flying saucer story has never before been told. I know the full story about flying saucers and I know that it has never before been told because I organized and was chief of the Air Force Project Blue Book, the special project set up to investigate and analyze unidentified flying object, or UFO reports. (UFO is the official term that I created to replace the words 'flying saucers.")

There is a fighter base in the United States which I used to visit frequently because, during 1951, 1952, and 1953, it got more than its share of good UFO reports. The commanding officer of the fighter group, a full colonel and command pilot, believed that UFO's were real. The colonel believed in UFO's because he had a lot of faith in his pilots - and they had chased UFO's in their F-86's. He had seen UFO's on the scopes of his radar sets, and he knew radar. The colonel's intelligence officer, a captain, didn't exactly believe that UFO's were real, but he did think that they warranted careful investigation. The logic the intelligence officer used in investigating UFO reports - and in getting answers to many of them - made me wish many times that he worked for me on Project Blue Book.

One day the intelligence officer called me at my base in Dayton, Ohio. He wanted to know if I was planning to make a trip his way soon. When I told him I expected to be in his area in about a week, he asked me to be sure to look him up. There was no special hurry, he added, but he had something very interesting to show me. When we got wind of a good story, Project Blue Book liked to start working on it at once, so I asked the intelligence officer to tell me what he had. But nothing doing. He didn't want to discuss it over the phone. He even vetoed the idea of putting it into a secret wire. Such extreme caution really stopped me, because anything can be coded and put in a wire.

When I left Dayton about a week later I decided to go straight to the fighter base, planning to arrive there in midmorning. But while I was changing airlines my reservations got fouled up, and I was faced with waiting until evening to get to the base. I called the intelligence officer and told him about the mix-up. He told me to hang on right there and he would fly over and pick me up in a T-33 jet. As soon as we were in the air, on the return trip, I called the intelligence officer on the interphone and asked him what was going on. What did he have? Why all the mystery? He tried to tell me, but the interphone wasn't working too well and I couldn't understand what he was saying. Finally he told me to wait until we returned to his office and I could read the report myself. Report! If he had a UFO report why hadn't he sent it in to Project Blue Book as he usually did?

We landed at the fighter base, checked in our parachutes, Mae Wests, and helmets, and drove over to his office. There were several other people in the office, and they greeted me with the usual question, "What's new on the flying saucer front?" I talked with them for a while, but was getting impatient to find out what was on the intelligence officer's mind. I was just about to ask him about the mysterious report when he took me to one side and quietly asked me not to mention it until everybody had gone. Once we were alone, the intelligence officer shut the door, went over to his safe, and dug out a big, thick report. It was the standard Air Force reporting form that is used for all intelligence reports, including UFO reports. The intelligence officer told me that this was the only existing copy. He said that he had been told to destroy all copies, but had saved one for me to read. With great curiosity, I took the report and started to read. What had happened at this fighter base?

About ten o'clock in the morning, one day a few weeks before, a radar near the base had picked up an unidentified target. It was an odd target in that it came in very fast - about 700 miles per hour - and then slowed down to about 100 miles per hour. The radar showed that it was located northeast of the airfield, over a sparsely settled area. Unfortunately the radar station didn't have any height finding equipment. The operators knew the direction of the target and its distance from the station but they didn't know its altitude. They reported the target, and two F-86's were scrambled. The radar picked up the F-86's soon after they were airborne, and had begun to direct them into the target when the target started to fade on the radarscope. At the time several of the operators thought that this fade was caused by the target's losing altitude rapidly and getting below the radar's beam. Some of the other operators thought that it was a high flying target and that it was fading just because it was so high. In the debate which followed, the proponents of the high flying theory won out, and the F-86's were told to go up to 40,000 feet. But before the aircraft could get to that altitude, the target had been completely lost on the radarscope. The F-86's continued to search the area at 40,000 feet, but could see nothing. After a few minutes the aircraft ground controller called the F-86's and told one to come down to 20,000 feet, the other to 5,000 feet, and continue the search, The two jets made a quick letdown, with one pilot stopping at 20,000 feet and the other heading for the deck.

The second pilot, who was going down to 5,000 feet, was just beginning to pull out when he noticed a flash below and ahead of him. He flattened out his dive a little and headed toward the spot where he had seen the light. As he closed on the spot he suddenly noticed what he first thought was a weather balloon. A few seconds later be realized that it couldn't be a balloon because it was staying ahead of him. Quite an achievement for a balloon, since he had built up a lot of speed in his dive and now was flying almost straight and level at 3,000 feet and was traveling "at the Mach." Again the pilot pushed the nose of the F-86 down and started after the object. He closed fairly fast, until he came to within an estimated 1,000 yards. Now he could get a good look at the object. Although it had looked like a balloon from above, a closer view showed that it was definitely round and flat saucer shaped. The pilot described it as being "like a doughnut without a hole." As his rate of closure began to drop off, the pilot knew that the object was picking up speed. But he pulled in behind it and started to follow. Now he was right on the deck. About this time the pilot began to get a little worried. What should he do? He tried to call his buddy, who was flying above him somewhere in the area at 20,000 feet. He called two or three times but could get no answer. Next he tried to call the ground controller but he was too low for his radio to carry that far. Once more he tried his buddy at 20,000 feet, but again no luck. By now he had been following the object for about two minutes and during this time had closed the gap between them to approximately 500 yards. But this was only momentary. Suddenly the object began to pull away, slowly at first, then faster. The pilot, realizing that he couldn't catch it, wondered what to do next. When the object traveled out about 1,000 yards, the pilot suddenly made up his mind - he did the only thing that he could do to stop the UFO. It was like a David about to do battle with a Goliath, but he had to take a chance. Quickly charging his guns, he started shooting. . . . A moment later the object pulled up into a climb and in a few seconds it was gone. The pilot climbed to 10,000 feet, called the other F-86, and now was able to contact his buddy. They joined up and went back to their base.

As soon as he had landed and parked, the F-86 pilot went into operations to tell his story to his squadron commander. The mere fact that he had fired his guns was enough to require a detailed report, as a matter of routine. But the circumstances under which the guns actually were fired created a major disturbance at the fighter base that day.

After the squadron commander had heard his pilot's story, he called the group commander, the colonel, and the intelligence officer. They heard the pilot's story. For some obscure reason there was a "personality clash," the intelligence officer's term, between the pilot and the squadron commander. This was obvious, according to the report I was reading, because the squadron commander immediately began to tear the story apart and accuse the pilot of "cracking up," or of just "shooting his guns for the hell of it and using the wild story as a cover-up." Other pilots in the squadron, friends of the accused pilot - including the intelligence officer and a flight surgeon - were called in to "testify." All of these men were aware of the fact that in certain instances a pilot can "flip" for no good reason, but none of them said that he had noticed any symptoms of mental crack-up in the unhappy pilot. None, except the squadron commander. He kept pounding home has idea - that the pilot was "psycho" - and used a few examples of what the report called "minor incidents" to justify his stand.

Finally the pilot who had been flying with the "accused" man was called in. He said that he had been monitoring the tactical radio channel but that he hadn't heard any calls from his buddy's low flying F-86. The squadron commander triumphantly jumped on this point, but the accused pilot tended to refute it by admitting he was so jumpy that he might not have been on the right channel. But when he was asked if he had checked or changed channels after he had lost the object and before he had finally contacted the other F-86, he couldn't remember. So ended the pilot's story and his interrogation.

The intelligence officer wrote up his report of a UFO sighting, but at the last minute, just before sending it, he was told to hold it back. He was a little unhappy about this turn of events, so he went in to see why the group commander had decided to delay sending the report to Project Blue Book. They talked over the possible reactions to the report. If it went out it would cause a lot of excitement, maybe unnecessarily. Yet, if the pilot actually had seen what he claimed, it was vitally important to get the report in to ATIC immediately. The group commander said that he would make his decision after a talk with his executive officer. They decided not to send the report and ordered it destroyed.

When I finished reading, the intelligence officer's first comment was, "What do you think?" Since the evaluation of the report seemed to hinge upon conflicts between personalities I didn't know, I could venture no opinion, except that the incident made up the most fascinating UFO report I'd ever seen. So I batted the intelligence officer's question back to him. "I know the people involved," he replied, "and I don't think the pilot was nuts. I can't give you the report, because Colonel told me to destroy it. But I did think you should know about it." Later he burned the report.

The problems involved in this report are typical. There are certain definite facts that can be gleaned from it; the pilot did see something and he did shoot at something, but no matter how thoroughly you investigate the incident that something can never be positively identified. It might have been a hallucination or it might have been some vehicle from outer space; no one will ever know. It was a UFO.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   1:33:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

One of the things I've noticed about the hangers on of such as the "Septics" Society, PSICOP, and such is that they are totally unmoved by evidence. That's why I generally don't argue with them (although they are fun to needle by dissecting their illogic and pointing out how closed minded they are). Their mind is made up and they do not want to be confused by no steenking evidence. Regardless of the witness, or any other evidence produced, it is all dismissed preemptorily with a wave of the rhetorical hand, and done so without examination. After all they already know it does not and cannot exist and so there is no reason to make an objective examination of the MOUNTAINS of evidence. It might upset their digestion to be confronted with facts and observations that cannot be summarily dismissed. Of course to use the logic of the septics one could categorically deny the existence of atoms. After all you cannot see them and no one has ever photographed one. We have impact targets in particle accelerators but that is obviously faked since we all know that you cannot see them they therefore do not exist.

As, I believe it was you, was commented earlier we live in an Island Galaxy that literally has billions of star systems and likely billions of habitable planets. To think we are alone and at the pinnacle of creation, living in splendid isolation the only inhabited planet in all of the macrocosmic all that has life and the conditions to support it requires a leap of faith greater than someone who finds evidences of the hand of creation in the great evolutionary jumps, which the septics cannot explain, which are evidenced in the known fossil record.

As well one might point out that a military pilot that makes a public report of a UFO is subject to a 10,000 dollar fine and ten years in jail. Why would the government put forth such a regulation for something that does not exist? If they do not exist then the pilot must obviously be delusionally insane and should not be allowed anywhere near a high performance aircraft. Yet that is not the tack taken. Instead pilots are told to shut up and not talk about it under threats of draconian punishment. For something that does not exist?

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:37:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A few people HAVE spoken out on matters a bit more serious than simple mass swarms of objects over a town...

UFO sightings at ICBM sites and nuclear Weapons Storage Areas

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   1:42:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As, I believe it was you, was commented earlier we live in an Island Galaxy that literally has billions of star systems and likely billions of habitable planets. To think we are alone and at the pinnacle of creation, living in splendid isolation the only inhabited planet in all of the macrocosmic all that has life and the conditions to support it requires a leap of faith greater than someone who finds evidences of the hand of creation in the great evolutionary jumps, which the septics cannot explain, which are evidenced in the known fossil record.

It's sort of like those that insisted the earth was flat because if it were round we'd fall off. It's what they believe, and NO amount of evidence will change their minds.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   1:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A few people HAVE spoken out on matters a bit more serious than simple mass swarms of objects over a town...

There is quite a body of evidence that has seeped out from the military. Radar clockings of craft moving as fast as 9,000 mph, and reports of classified crash recovery teams who exist to scoop up the remains of crashed "craft".

Also Civilian Air Traffic Controllers are forbidden to talk about UFOs as well.

The septics can only maintain their stance by using strawman arguments. They will take an obvious hoax and then falsely imply that because one incident was proven a hoax that it proves that ALL sightings and reports are hoaxes. Their arguments are frequently dishonest and if all else fails they resort to argumentum ad hominem and accuse anyone who speaks of the evidence as a "kook" or a "drunk" etc., ....

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:49:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The town obviously didn't know what they saw.

...are you one of those that still insists Iraq had WMD in 2003 and that they were working on a nuclear weapon?

Nope. I strongly opposed the war from the beginning and my many hundreds of posts on various forums attest to it. I never thought Iraq had WMD.

A UFO is an unidentified flying object. It means it couldn't be identified.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   1:51:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's sort of like those that insisted the earth was flat because if it were round we'd fall off. It's what they believe, and NO amount of evidence will change their minds.

Exactly - the septics are the modern "Flat Earth Society".

I would have less trouble with their antics if they were honest but they are not. They have an agenda that they support with absolute faith and like any fanatic will brook no theories which run contrary to their point of view. They are like the people who closed the Patent Office in the 1880's because everything that could be invented had already been invented. They were the people at Kittyhawk making "catcalls" at those crazy Wright Brothers. "If man were meant to fly God would have given him wings."

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:55:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

A UFO is an unidentified flying object. It means it couldn't be identified.

True, but limited. More accurately we can often rule out what it is NOT e.g., Venus, Swampgas, Drunken Seagulls, the Crazy Professor in his Flivver, etc., ...

Science means you look at the evidence and hypothesize based upon the observed phenomena. It is not science to decide something is impossible or cannot exist "a priori". Science is not conducted by fiat or decree.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   1:59:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Have you ever looked over the MAJESTIC 12 documents?

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:03:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not mountains of facts and evidence. Just mountains of bullshit from people who see what they want to see.

... use the logic of the septics one could categorically deny the existence of atoms. After all you cannot see them and no one has ever photographed one.

Do some Google searches.

Radar clockings of craft moving as fast as 9,000 mph...

No, not of craft. Only "something." Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec. Space craft (from Earth) can reach 5 miles/sec during re-entry.

...reports of classified crash recovery teams who exist to scoop up the remains of crashed "craft".

Reports from whom, some caller on the Art Bell show?

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   2:09:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec

Do meteors make 90 degree instanaeous turns, stop and hover, then take off at over 10,000 mph?

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:11:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

No, have not. I am familiar with it but have not read them. Thanks for the link.

My late mother was quite a bug on UFOs and so I was exposed to it from an early age - it is not an area I spend a lot of time reading in but do find it interesting. I believe that an objective investigator that actually takes the time to sift through the evidence can reach no other conclusion, after one has eliminated the hoaxes and questionable incidents, that there is a solid core of evidence that suggests that we are, and have been for a long time, being visited by one or more advanced cultures. Probably to come and look at those crazy primitives on Earth.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:12:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Meteors have been observed entering the atmosphere at 10 miles/sec.

From National UFO Reporting Center

On November 14th, a major UFO incident occurred over the state of Alabama. Capt. W.J. Hull, veteran Capital Airlines pilot was a UFO skeptic. He had written an article entitled, "The Obituary of The Flying Saucers," for the Airline Pilot magazine. At 10:10 p.m. on the l4th, Capt. Hull was the pilot of Capital Flight No. 77, approaching Mobile, Alabama, enroute from New York City. Suddenly, he and his co-pilot, Peter MacIntosh, noticed a bright light through the upper part of the windshield. The plane was on a southwesterly course, and the object, looking like a meteor, was railing across their path from left to right. But, instead of burning out, the 'meteor' halted abruptly directly in front of the plane. "What the hell is it, a jet?" MacIntosh shouted. As the UFO remained a constant distance in front of the plane, Capt. Hull grabbed his microphone and called Mobile Tower. "Bates Tower, this is Capital 77. Look out toward the north and east and see if you can see a strange white light hovering in the sky."

Mobile quickly answered that a thick cloud layer was obscuring vision, and asked Capt. Hull if he thought the object was in the vicinity of Mobile. "Affirmative," Hull replied. "It is directly ahead of us and at about our altitude or slightly higher. We are right over Jackson and have descended to 10,000 feet..." Immediately after the radio exchange, the UFO began to move. It darted back and forth, rising and falling, making extremely sharp turns, sometimes changing course 90 degrees in an instant. The color and size remained constant. "MacIntosh and I sat there completely flabbergasted at this unnerving exhibition," Capt. Hull reported. After 30 seconds or more, the object ceased its violent maneuvers and again appeared to hover ahead of the plane.

About this time Mobile Tower called back: "Capital 77, we are trying to raise the Brookley Air Force Base Tower." At this moment, the UFO began another series of "crazy gyrations, lazy 8’s, square chandelles... and then shot out over the Gulf of Mexico rising at a steep angle. It diminished rapidly to a pinpoint and disappeared in the night. Elapsed time: At least two minutes. "The one thing which I can't get over," Capt. Hull stated, "is the fact that when it came, it came steeply downward; when it departed after its amazing show, it went steeply upward!"

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:16:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Not mountains of facts and evidence. Just mountains of bullshit from people who see what they want to see.

Thanks for proving my comment true.

Mountains of evidences and reports which you have not read, studied, or investigated but because contentions are made that disagree with your prejudices it is dismissed as "bullshit".

Your proof of your thesis is?

Thanks for playing.

Tilt

You lose.

Play Again?

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

...there is a solid core of evidence that suggests that we are, and have been for a long time, being visited by one or more advanced cultures.

Probably to come and look at those crazy primitives on Earth.

I think there are several possibilities;

1) There are several alien races here from other star systems, each with their own reason for being here, some benevolent, some not.

2) They are time travelers from our future here to observe history, or perhaps even to MODIFY history (if that is even possible given the concept of paradoxes).

3) They are interdimensional travelers, here for unknown reasons.

4) They are from this solar system, where our civilization is a remnant of their own, where a catrostrophic disaster on the planet that used to exist between Mars and Jupiter used to be the home of our ancestors. They settled elsewhere, and we settled here and lost our knowledge over time somehow.

5) Any combination of the above.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:27:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

It is like the Crop Circle phenomena - even after the death of the two drunks paraded out as the perps the phenomena continues. So, that either proves life after death, which the septics deny, or that they weren't done by the two drunks.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:35:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Given the governments propensity for setting false trails, and use of shills etc., that some of the "hoaxes" were done intentionally to have something to point at.

While MJ-12 may or may not be a hoax, the Interplanetary Phenomenon Unit certainly did exist...

It's quite possible that the Majectic documents are simply false leads placed there to steer attention away from the IPU.

Then again, the converse of that idea might be true.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

As well we know the Brookings Report exists and was written at NASA's behest.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:49:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe, just based on the different reports I've read, as well as directions pointed at by some of our more advanced cosmological thinking, that some combination of 1) and 3) most likely.

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:51:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

From what I have read and seen hinted at MJ-12 probably did/does exist. Now whether the documents were planted as a false trail to discredit the knowledge of its existence is an open question.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   2:56:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a link to an interesting site if you're interested in the science behind what I've alluded to...

A few things about ring singularities and other stuff..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   2:59:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

I tend to also think 2) might be true, as according to modern physics involving space time, ring singularities could create doorways to past and future universes.

With my limited knowledge I cannot rule it out.

The problem of course with time travel is the paradoxes - as you point out.

As well time, as we use the term, is an artificial construct. It is the concept that our linear sequential existence represents some qauntifiable contiguous physical universe phenomena. It is still an ill defined concept. Yes we can measure the ticks on a clock and perceive that they have some duration and we use them as a unit of measure of the progression of events in the physical universe. However, it is yet to be seen if our current understanding and conceptualization can be translated into a principle that can be applied to the construction of a functioning "time machine".

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:06:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Thank you. I will take a look-see.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   3:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Here's a much shorter synopsis on the subject..

BLACK HOLES

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:30:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Much additional information can be found by looking up the term "ring singularity kerr time travel"

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   3:34:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

There was a VERY credible sighting at O'Hare Airport in Chicago a couple years ago.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2007-12-06   6:18:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Majestic 12 is likely a hoax and Stanton Friedman is a kook. Even William Cooper denounced him.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:13:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   11:22:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-06   12:00:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:13:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

It's amazing how people can discern how fast something is traveling just by looking at it from enormous distances. They can just "tell" that it's traveling at 10K/mph.

["Hey Wilbur, how fast you reckon that there flyin' saucer is goin'? Uh, I'd say about 10K/mph, Dilbert."]

Hey genius, ever hear of an invention called radar?

From Summary Of The UFO Phenomenon

All UFOs are capable of incredible speeds. Reliable radar observations (in some cases with multiple sets at multiple frequencies) have documented speeds as high as 10,000 mph within the atmosphere, as long ago as the 1950s. High speeds alone do not distinguish the UFO, since such objects as meteors can attain similar speeds. But profiles of speed and altitude based on radar measurements and backed up by visual observations indicate that UFOs can and do undergo radical changes in both speed and altitude simultaneously. Other observations indicate a disregard for normal orientations, where the UFO is observed to hover on edge, flip upside down, or spin while hovering. A particularly characteristic maneuver is the "falling leaf", where the object swings like a pendulum from side to side while descending. This maneuver to lose altitude was first used in human flight by Paul Hill, the NASA engineer who invented the flying platform.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   14:30:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The UFO community frequently describes witnesses as "credible" and then there are all of those "reports."

You are evading the point again. It is up to the investigator to analyze and judge the credibility of evidence. Sneering comments are NOT evidence. My statement can be checked out and evaluated by anyone caring to look.

If one takes the time to dig through some of the better documented and researched evidence in the record there are reams of reports that present an intriguing and thought provoking picture.

There are a lot of witness reports from people with solid backgrounds and who have filed affadavits. Their reports, looked at over time, with comparisons made between cases, the similarities over time etc., all add up to a substantial core of evidence which tends to support the contentions that there is some there, there.

You are perfectly free to believe whatever you wish, but know that I know, as do you, that when you the proclaim the falsity of evidence which you have neither read nor examined in any fashion that you are simply demonstrating your own personal prejudices and that such assertions have no evidenciary weight whatsoever. It is simply argumentum ad hominem and bluster. It is not a sound argument it is simply "science by decree" which is NOT science.

When presented with evidence that cannot be summarily dismissed with ridicule and personal attacks it is simply denied to exist. This is not a reccomendation but is by and large how the septic movement operates and why intelligent, objective, evidence driven individuals grant them no weight and no credence beyond eviscerating their false logic. That is also what clued me in to what the septic movement is about - it is not science it is about shutting down discussion, examination, and reaching conclusions that are contrary to the "approved" paradigm. They are cranks, and government spooks, baying at the moon and complaining about its existence.

As well you left unadressed the government's action to penalize and punish people within their authority for making factual reports of their sightings. Again if it was delusion then pilots of high performance aircraft should be removed from their jobs, but intstead they are silenced by threats of punishment and left on duty. Interesting datum that. The same thing applies to Military, and civilian, Air Traffic Controllers - they are forbidden under threat of prosecution from discussing anomalous blips on their scopes. Another interesting data point.

In the end you are free to believe in the fuzz in your belly button if you wish, but please do not try to pretend that your voice is authoritative, nor any of the rest of the septic movement, when neither you nor they are willing to examine objectively the available evidence. The exposure of a given hoax does not invalidate any of the evidence that the septic leaders avoid, other than to disparage and deny, the way a Vampire avoids garlic.

I have had respect for some of your postings on other issues, here, at LF, and El Pee, so I am disinclined to be nasty, but it does not require of me to avoid pointing out the threadbare tactics and evidences of the septic movement which you seem to grant credibility.

The UFO issue is really not that big of an issue for me and I do not spend a lot of time dwelling on it - it is simply that long ago I reached the point where I was convinced by the evidence. It supports overwhelmingly the "we are being visited" hypothesis - one need only remove the blinders and start looking and reading.

I don't even feel any overwhelming desire to rub your nose in the evidence because to do so is a pointless exercise in futility. Someone who allows their opinions to be formed by argument from authority, and eschews evidence, is not particularly amenable to reason. Someone who is convinced they already know all the answers is resistant to new information and is in little danger of learning anything new.

"The truth is incontrovertible, malice may attack it, ignorance may deride it, but in the end; there it is." ~ Winston Churchill

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:32:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

If you know anything about physics then you know the unlikelihood of something making a 90 degree turn at high velocity. (unless they have inertial dampers installed, right?)

With our CURRENT understanding it's impossible. That's why craft that exhibit such flight characteristics are NOT made here in the US, or anywhere else on Earth, in this time reference at least..

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles. That our understanding of the universe is the most complete possible and than anything contrary to the currently accepted theories, which are radically different from the currently accepted theories of even 20 years ago, are the final word on the subject. This is of course highly contrary to the scientific method which, if practiced honestly, requires the theory to change to accomodate any new evidence and if the new evidence is in conflict with the theory then the theory must be changed, or rewritten, to accommodate the new evidence not the evidence thrown out, denied to exist, and the messenger gutted.

Thus operating off this hidden, and unsupportable, premise it is easy for them to deny and dismiss any evidence that does not conform to their prejudices. It is not science it is faith in a mythology that they will not allow to be questioned.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   14:47:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

The problem one runs into in dealing with the septics is the hidden premise which they will never explicity state i.e., that the technology which we have at this time and place on Planet Earth is the most advanced technology in all of the universe, known and unknown, and that if it is beyond our technical capabilities then it is impossible and that it is inconceivable that any other civilization either exists or could be millions of years ahead of us in their mastery of physical universe principles.

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

It's a good thing that there are those that can think outside the box, otherwise we'd all still be living in caves.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   15:55:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Again we're back to the flat earthers and those that said it was impossible for men to fly. They are so short sighted that anything not yet done HAS to be impossible.

Exactly - which is why I call them "septics" rather than the skeptics they try to claim they are. As soon as someone takes a position pro or con then one has ceased being a skeptic. The one thread that runs through the so-called "skeptics" crowd is that they are largely advocates of the "con" or "anti" position on most of the subjects they address, but they falsely and dishonestly claim neutrality. They are best viewed as advocates of the authoritarian status quo. To put it direct they ARE advocates NOT skeptics.

When they are confronted with evidence that is contrary to their prejudices and their "anti" position they shit a load of the proverbial bricks, start sputtering, and begin with the name calling. That "name-calling" is in and of itself clear evidence of the underlying closed mindset. They simply cannot step back and consider that the other side of a proposition might have some merit.

This is no different from the various 'bots one can find infesting political and current events forums. That is why it becomes quickly apparent that some unknown percentage of the so-called "Skeptics" are highly likely forms of Spooks and CoIntelPro agitators. The, less than, Amazing Randi comes readily to mind - he will not say where his funding comes from and is completely closed lipped about it.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." ~ Arthur C. Clarke

I'm sure aircraft, computers, and automobiles would have been seen as witchcraft by those living in the 1600's.

Absolutely - it would all be "magic". Likely you would be burned at the stake - which is what the septics would like to do to anyone who disagrees with their narrow unimaginative minds. Aircraft of any kind would be "of the Devil", computers completely inscrutable, and automobiles an abomination against God.

Take an example from more recent times - the "Cargo Cults" of New Guinea. Aircraft were completely beyond their ken and so the work of God. So, they built effigies to attract them so that God would give them some "cargo" too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-06   16:57:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're not perfectly spherical. If you look closely you can see that they have greater width than height. They didn't look to me like they were glowing. They looked white like seagulls.

BTW Alan, these are what geese look like when they migrate. They are dark, and don't appear as glowing orbs under bright clouds.

And PS, seagulls don't fly at high altitude nor in huge flocks in formation unless over the ocean at low altitude when following a fishing vessel..

The video I had posted with the bright objects in formation do not display the characteristics of any bird.

These are birds Alan.

FormerLurker  posted on  2007-12-06   20:10:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Just because something appears to be moving fast in a video doesn't mean that it is. It's also impossible to tell how high something is without points of reference to triangulate distance.

In the other video there are no points of reference. You can't tell how high or fast the objects are moving, or how high the clouds are. The objects are neither glowing, nor orb shaped. They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-07   1:35:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

They're elliptical and white which is exactly what I'd expect white birds to look like when video taped from a distance. They're also moving in formation consistent with behavior seen in birds.

And since it is absolutely categorically impossible for them to be anything else, and only a retarded slavering drooling kook would think otherwise, it can only be birds. Therefore by decree it is birds.

See, I can do Septic Siunce too.

"When I die I want to go peacefully in my sleep like my grandfather - not screaming in terror like his passengers." - Unk.

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-07   1:41:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

Don't look much like birds to me. Nope, nope, nope.

"They must find it difficult... Those who have taken authority as the truth, rather than truth as the authority." ~ Gerald Massey

wudidiz  posted on  2007-12-07   4:01:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  

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