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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Abiogenesis, Atheism, and Evolution
Source: Freedom4um
URL Source: http://freedom4um.com
Published: Dec 25, 2007
Author: Alan Chapman
Post Date: 2007-12-25 19:02:11 by Alan Chapman
Keywords: None
Views: 243
Comments: 11

What most people think they know about science can be described as a comic-book understanding combined with Happy Hour gossip. A cursory review of talking points from Creationist websites exemplifies the ignorant and narrow-minded world view held by many. If you want to understand science then talk to scientists who conduct scientific research. Read their writings, listen to their lectures, and watch their presentations.

Reification (anthropomorphic fallacy): Creationists reify God by ascribing human-like characteristics to natural phenomenon. They confuse order and complexity in man-made things with order and complexity in natural things. Without a scientific understanding of how things work in nature, it's easy to see why ignorance and superstition give way to inane notions. It isn't mere coincidence that believers conveniently attribute to God whatever unconstrained abilities are needed to account for unkowns. One could just as easily assert that the universe is a virtual-reality simulator controlled by beings in another dimension but such assertions explain nothing. They're show-stoppers. They end the conversation.

Abiogenesis vs. Evolution: People often assert that evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, and they're correct. Evolution explains how organisms grow in complexity over time from simpler forms. Abiogenesis is the correct word to use when talking about the formation of life from non-living matter. How do we know that abiogenesis happened? At one time there was no life on Earth and now there is life. Living organisms, themselves, are composed of non-living matter and are defined only by the sum total of their components. If one were to break down and separate their constituent components the result would be piles of non-living matter. Some non-living matter can self-organize and replicate. It is not known when or how non-living matter became sentient. The assertion that scientists believe that life just "popped" into existence is a straw man perpetuated by Creationists. Ironically, it is Creationists who believe that life just "popped" into existence.

The "Darwin discovered Evolution" Fallacy: Charles Darwin is often incorrectly credited with discovering evolution. Anaximander of Miletus is the first person known to have proposed the idea of evolution in any capacity. Several others proposed similar ideas between the time of Anaximander and Darwin. Darwin proposed the idea of evolution by natural selection, hence the title of his book: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics vs. Evolution Fallacy: Evolution doesn't violate the 2nd Law unless bogus provisos are added. The claim that they're mutually exclusive was shown to be fallacious years ago in scientific journals. The 2nd Law applies only to a closed, isolated system which energy can neither enter nor exit. Earth isn't a closed, isolated system. It receives megajoules of energy from the sun every second.

The First Cause Fallacy: The First Cause claim attempts to offer a solution to the infinite regression paradox. The problem occurs if it's assumed that everything has a cause because you end up with an infinite regression of causes. Creationists simply decree by fiat that God is an uncaused cause. The argument essentially goes like this: Every event requires a cause. Everything except God has a cause. Therefore, the first cause is God. This is a fallacy of Circulus in Demonstrando (circular reasoning). The tactic here is to offer a solution exempt from the premise of the problem. One could simply ask, "If God doesn't require a cause then why does the universe require one?" It's because the intent isn't to offer a viable explanation for anything but rather to inject God into the discourse. It should also be noted that asserting that God is an uncaused cause is special pleading.

Hoyle's Fallacy: Hoyle's Fallacy is a type of false analogy similar to the example given of tossing a deck of cards into the air. The subsequent random arrangement of the cards, as they land, is supposed to represent the way Creationists interpret scientific explanations for evolution and the origin of life. The example given is either a straw man or the result of ignorance. Evolution is understood to be a cumulative process which takes place over time, rather than a random process which spontaneously generates life from a random chance mixture of components under random conditions.

Micro-evolution vs. Macro-evolution: Micro-evolution is defined as the changes within a species. Macro-evolution (aka speciation) is a culmination of micro-evolutionary changes in a temporal procession. In the field of evolutionary biology there is no significant difference between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Creationists have fabricated a difference for ontological reasons and resort to straw man tactics by redefining macro-evolution to mean the spontaneous creation of a new species like the "Crockaduck."

Atheism as the default position: Atheism is defined as either a disbelief or lack of belief in God. If atheism is defined only as a disbelief then what word is used to decribe people prior to the introduction of theism? The correct word to use is atheist. Theist and atheist are mutually exclusive terms. You're either one or the other. Therefore, atheism is the default position since nobody is born a theist. One might incorrectly argue that the correct word is non-theist but such an argument would be analagous to saying that there are three types of reproduction: sexual, asexual, and non-sexual.

The "Random Mutation" Fallacy: Mutation is defined simply as a process of change. The definition contains nothing about randomness. That isn't to say, however, that mutation can't occur randomly, but rather that mutation isn't exclusively random.

To assert that we can inductively infer an intelligent cause for order and complexity in the universe in a non-sequitur. So is the notion that "a causal intelligent intervention from whatever source" is the proven mechanism behind macroevolution. The appearance of intelligence is an illusion and the application of human-like characteristics to natural phenomenon is fallacious. Although intended as humor, The Onion's Intelligent Falling parody gives good insight into this type of world view.

To assert that Creation theory taken objectively simply implies the existence of a causal element is disingenuous. The underlying premise behind Creationism is the notion that God created the universe and life within it. Phrases such as "Intelligent Design" and "Creation Science" are nothing but religious dogmatism wrapped in a veneer of scientific nomenclature. Such notions are supernatural since they're inherently not natural. There is nothing scientific about them since they can't be observed, tested, or measured. They're nothing more than fanciful whim. The purpose of ID isn't to encourage critical thinking. It's to supplant it with wishful thinking. At best, ID is intellectual laziness. At worst, it's a canard. It breeds ignorance and irrationality which encourages the acceptance of quackery and pseudo-scientific claims (ie. faith healing, homeopathy, astrology, psychics).

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#1. To: Original_Intent (#0)

Alan Chapman  posted on  2007-12-25   19:02:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Alan Chapman, TwentyTwelve, christine, Wudidiz, robin, Indrid Cold, Pinguinite, Zipporah, FOH, James Deffenbach, scrapper2, FormerLurker, all (#0) (Edited)

Nice try but no Cigar. That you were trying to confound would seem apparent however you did not.

Let's go through this one step at a time. Please feel free to take notes as I will cite the Logical Fallacies violated as we engage in this exercise.

”Reification (anthropomorphic fallacy): Creationists reify God by ascribing human-like characteristics to natural phenomenon. They confuse order and complexity in man-made things with order and complexity in natural things. Without a scientific understanding of how things work in nature, it's easy to see why ignorance and superstition give way to inane notions. It isn't mere coincidence that believers conveniently attribute to God whatever unconstrained abilities are needed to account for unkowns. One could just as easily assert that the universe is a virtual-reality simulator controlled by beings in another dimension but such assertions explain nothing. They're show-stoppers. They end the conversation.”

First the fallacies violated:

Circulus in probando a.k.a. Circular Reasoning or Begging The Question . One of the classical logical fallacies described by Aristotle wherein the argument relies upon itself for reinforcement and substantiation.

Argumentum Ad Hominem i.e., “Against the Man”. This is any argument which relies upon an attack against the individual person(s) holding the contrary view. It relies not upon reason or logical demonstration but upon personal attack, name calling, meritless derision, and other childish drivel.

The term “reification” comes to us from Latin “res” or the root word for thing and means to treat something abstract as though it had actual existence. As it is used in this argument it is the attempt to discredit by applying a label so as to deligitimize an argument through implication and derogation i.e., a variant of Argumentum Ad Hominem. That by first false asserting a position the arguer asserts as the contrary line (i.e., a Strawman Argument ) he then procedes to disprove the Strawman with faulty logic.

Putting it in plain English the argument first attempts, without benefit of sound reasoning or proof, and with reliance upon Argumentum ad Hominem, to impute ( i.e., to levy upon or assign) a position created by the anti-creationists, mostly militant atheists, to all creationists i.e., that the creation argument is founded upon a belief in God as defined by the atheist i.e., a superstition. So thus one can then see that the argument is circular because it is self reinforcing and relies upon itself to prove its point.

Thus the entire argument is fallacious as it relies upon both a false premise, shady assertions, and circurlar reasoning. Other than that it is pretty unsound.

”Abiogenesis vs. Evolution: People often assert that evolution doesn't explain the origin of life, and they're correct. Evolution explains how organisms grow in complexity over time from simpler forms. Abiogenesis is the correct word to use when talking about the formation of life from non-living matter. How do we know that abiogenesis happened? At one time there was no life on Earth and now there is life. Living organisms, themselves, are composed of non-living matter and are defined only by the sum total of their components. If one were to break down and separate their constituent components the result would be piles of non-living matter. Some non-living matter can self-organize and replicate. It is not known when or how non-living matter became sentient. The assertion that scientists believe that life just "popped" into existence is a straw man perpetuated by Creationists. Ironically, it is Creationists who believe that life just "popped" into existence.”

Again a circular argument: “We know abiogenesis is true because we have asserted that it is true”.

The argument is what is known colloquially as a non sequitur (Latin: “Does not follow) as the conclusion is not a logically valid consequent of the preceding statements. The argument does not support the conclusion which is presented as a self evident truth resulting from the premise which is not logically connected to the conclusion.

The argument violates what is known as the Fallacy of Division which is what causes it to be non sequitur.

Form:
The object O has the property P.
Therefore, all of the parts of O have the property P.
(Where the property P is one which does not distribute from a whole to its parts.)

Example:
The universe has existed for fifteen billion years.
The universe is made out of molecules.
Therefore, each of the molecules in the universe has existed for fifteen billion years.

The argument as presented is a little more convoluted but boils down to: At one time there was no life on Earth and now there is life.

The physical universe is made of matter
Biological entities are made of matter
Therefore life comes from matter.

The problem is that the argument does not address the point it claims to address which is how did biological life come to be? What brought it into existence? Random chance? It is a conclusion dictated but not proved i.e., it is because it is. The rationale boils down to “shit happens”. No support is provided for the statement: “Some non-living matter can self-organize and replicate.” As well the entire argument is self invalidating via the phrase: “It is not known when or how non-living matter became sentient.” In other words the argument states directly via that statement that the assertion it is making is an unproved and unsupported assertion which is directed as a conclusion only by Appeal To Misleading Authority .

From the point of view of logic and sound reasoning the argument is a complete “Basket Case”.

”The "Darwin discovered Evolution" Fallacy: Charles Darwin is often incorrectly credited with discovering evolution. Anaximander of Miletus is the first person known to have proposed the idea of evolution in any capacity. Several others proposed similar ideas between the time of Anaximander and Darwin. Darwin proposed the idea of evolution by natural selection, hence the title of his book: On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life.”

Again this violates:

Strawman Argument

AND

Appeal To Misleading Authority

All modern evolutionary studies and theories are predicated upon Darwin's work and publications. Citing Anaximander and crowing that he discussed a theory of evolution is a position established after the fact and noticed after the fact of establishment of modern evolutionism. That Anaximander posited a position akin to evolution does not prove anything other than Darwin was not original.

”The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics vs. Evolution Fallacy: Evolution doesn't violate the 2nd Law unless bogus provisos are added. The claim that they're mutually exclusive was shown to be fallacious years ago in scientific journals. The 2nd Law applies only to a closed, isolated system which energy can neither enter nor exit. Earth isn't a closed, isolated system. It receives megajoules of energy from the sun every second.”

While this is the soundest of the arguments presented it still falls short and relies upon the usual logical fallacies.

First we get Loaded Words i.e. “bogus” right from the get go. The characterization is unsupported and amounts to nothing more than Argumentum Ad Hominem .

Further this is an incomplete and hence unsound refutation. Yes, a system requires an energy input to be organized and to continue in operation, but that does not answer the question of what is bringing about a higher level of organization. It does provide a source for a raw undirected energy input into a semi-open system but it does not refute the Second Law of Thermodynamics i.e., it provides no proved mechanism for directing any postulated energy input so as to bring about higher levels of organization.

”The First Cause Fallacy: The First Cause claim attempts to offer a solution to the infinite regression paradox. The problem occurs if it's assumed that everything has a cause because you end up with an infinite regression of causes. Creationists simply decree by fiat that God is an uncaused cause. The argument essentially goes like this: Every event requires a cause. Everything except God has a cause. Therefore, the first cause is God. This is a fallacy of Circulus in Demonstrando (circular reasoning). The tactic here is to offer a solution exempt from the premise of the problem. One could simply ask, "If God doesn't require a cause then why does the universe require one?" It's because the intent isn't to offer a viable explanation for anything but rather to inject God into the discourse. It should also be noted that asserting that God is an uncaused cause is special pleading.”

Again logical sleight of hand:

Note: “Creationists simply decree by fiat that God is an uncaused cause.”

Imputing a position held by SOME to ALL. Logically invalid. Of course this is standard for atheists as they seem to have an awful time at accurately stating the contrary position before distorting it.

More accurately the chain of reasoning goes:

We can observe that all non-random events have a point of origin and a directed causal force acting to bring about the observed phenomena.

Therefore inductively we can reason from an observed effect back to the point at which it originated and can logically infer an agency acting as cause even if we cannot name that agency. Because some name this first Cause as their God does not make it so nor does it invalidate the chain of reasoning. It is simply inflammatory language used to sidestep the inability to refute the chain of reasoning i.e., a Red Herring.

So, one may hence reason backward to the origin of motive life and infer that there was a directed action which brought it into being and that is the agency which we name as the “first cause”. That this was an intelligent cause is inferred from the fact of organization and animation i.e., that disparate inanimate elements were brought together and imbued with life. Although more accurately the argument extends further backward to the point where the physical universe and matter came into existence. The atheists really don't like to do that because it is much harder to posit that matter brought itself into existence.

”Hoyle's Fallacy: Hoyle's Fallacy is a type of false analogy similar to the example given of tossing a deck of cards into the air. The subsequent random arrangement of the cards, as they land, is supposed to represent the way Creationists interpret scientific explanations for evolution and the origin of life. The example given is either a straw man or the result of ignorance. Evolution is understood to be a cumulative process which takes place over time, rather than a random process which spontaneously generates life from a random chance mixture of components under random conditions.”

Again logical sleight of hand. Notice how we got from point “A” to point “C” while bypassing the intermediate step altogether? That is, what brought the life to be? Further, it ignores, more accurately avoids, what is the mechanism that causes those intermediate steps to be taken?

”Micro-evolution vs. Macro-evolution: Micro-evolution is defined as the changes within a species. Macro-evolution (aka speciation) is a culmination of micro-evolutionary changes in a temporal procession. In the field of evolutionary biology there is no significant difference between micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Creationists have fabricated a difference for ontological reasons and resort to straw man tactics by redefining macro-evolution to mean the spontaneous creation of a new species like the "Crockaduck."”

Again a dishonest and unsound argument. Here it is simply the attempt to define terms out of existence and then pretend that it makes no difference. Here are the terms correctly defined not disingenuously misdefined out of existence.

1.Microevolution i.e., the adaptation and modification by/to an environment of an plant or an animal to a niche in its habitat. This is often referred to as evolution by natural selection i.e., those that successfully adapt survive and those that don't – don't. The animal does not change from one type of animal to another but rather undergoes minor changes in form. Thus Darwin's Galapagos Finches are all still Finches, but have simply adapted via small changes in form to more effectively thrive in the niche they feed in. Creation Theory does not dispute the validity of microevolution.

2.Macroevolution i.e., the change of one form to another. This would be analogous to a plant developing mobility and becoming an animal or a Wolf evolving into a Sheep. In microevolution the animal remains the same type of animal but undergoes small modifications necessary to more successfully survive in a changing environment or to take on a new niche in the ecosphere. In macroevolution you have one form radically changing into something completely different.)

The problem the Darwinists/Atheists have with this is that the distinction uncovers the inconsistencies in their positions and their inability to fairly or honestly support them through any device other than insult or shouting down the opposition. One of the big embarrassments to the materialist/atheist/darwinist position is the inability of their theory to account for either the absence of transitional forms in the fossil record or the existence of specialized cells which perform a very limited function. A validating prediction of the Darwinst/Evolutionist camp was that there would be transitional forms of an animal or plant changing form radically from one to the other. To date no validating fossil evidence has surfaced.

What has been observed in the fossil record are jumps i.e. radical changes in form over narrowed amounts of time which is directly contrary to the gradualism of the Evolutionist Camp. In order to sidestep this the theory of Punctuated Equilibrium was developed so as to account for these gaps and rapid changes in the evolutionary record. Still this is a deviation from the standard Party Line and so Stephen J. Gould and Niles Eldridge came under attack for apostasy from the “one true faith”. The problem of course with Punctuated Evolution is that it was designed as a theory to account for the fact that standard evolutionary theory could not account for the rapid changes and gaps observed in the fossil record. In other words it acknowledged that the standard Darwinist/Evolutionist Party Line might not be entirely correct. “BURN THE HERETIC!”

The late Sir Fred Hoyle was even more reviled because, although he was an atheist, he acknowledged that Darwinian Gradualism did not add up. While he did seek to posit a mechanism other than a non-material one it was never widely accepted, although he was widely villified for his heresy.

”Atheism as the default position: Atheism is defined as either a disbelief or lack of belief in God. If atheism is defined only as a disbelief then what word is used to decribe people prior to the introduction of theism? The correct word to use is atheist. Theist and atheist are mutually exclusive terms. You're either one or the other. Therefore, atheism is the default position since nobody is born a theist. One might incorrectly argue that the correct word is non-theist but such an argument would be analagous to saying that there are three types of reproduction: sexual, asexual, and non-sexual.”

Having already disposed of this argument once I am not inclined to reinvent the wheel so I quote myself:

The position of a newborn is that of unknowing. It is not a position of advocacy for or against a proposition. It is neither belief nor unbelief it is no belief and is founded on no knowledge or experience. Atheism is not the lack of belief in theism but the rejection of belief i.e., the negation of belief. That this is true is evidenced by the atheists themselves in their writings and positions. It is active non belief i.e., the opposite of belief in a deity.

Symbolically if one were to posit:

P = There is a deity.

Then the atheist position is not the lack of any defined belief but rather ~P (for those not familiar with symbolic logic the “~” symbol means “the negation of” or “not”. Thus ~P = NOT P.)

Thus ~P = There is no deity.

Thus anyone following this can then see the truth of the statement that atheism is not the absence of belief but as it is practiced the opposite of belief or formally the negation of belief.

Returning to our newborn we can then see that a baby with no defined belief system is neither a theist nor an atheist as, as far as we can tell, it has no belief one way or the other, and does not even have the thought symbols for either position. Thus both theism (a belief in a divine being) and atheism (a rejection of the belief in a divine being) are both positive positions in that they both advocate a specific point of view. Thus our unknowing child holds neither belief, and thus the assertion that the natural native position of a newborn is atheism is false.

This can be expressed as neither P or ~P or symbolically ("v" = or) ~(P v ~P) which is not equivalent to ~P.

Q.E.D.

(As an aside I really do not care what they believe or do not believe so long as their actions do not adversely affect another. I do believe in self determinism and the right of another to think and believe, or not believe, as they wish. However, too many atheists violate this basic tenet of civility by insisting upon attacking others, insulting them speaking derisively, etc., for daring not to share their unbelief, and so I find them annoying boors.)

The "Random Mutation" Fallacy: Mutation is defined simply as a process of change. The definition contains nothing about randomness. That isn't to say, however, that mutation can't occur randomly, but rather that mutation isn't exclusively random.

The death of a thousand quibbles or “The Trouble With Quibbles”. A mutation is a variation in a species that is divergent from the norm for the species and it's occurrence is an unpredicted and unpredictable event i.e., a “chance” occurrence i.e., random by definition. The attempt here is simply to obscure the plain facts and clear definitions so as to avoid the trap of having to admit that a mutation is a random event brought about by causus unknown. In other words standard evolutionary theory cannot account for mutations beyond observing that they do occur.

”To assert that we can inductively infer an intelligent cause for order and complexity in the universe in a non-sequitur. So is the notion that "a causal intelligent intervention from whatever source" is the proven mechanism behind macroevolution. The appearance of intelligence is an illusion and the application of human-like characteristics to natural phenomenon is fallacious. Although intended as humor, The Onion's Intelligent Falling parody gives good insight into this type of world view.”

Another paragraph length logical fallacy which resorts to nothing more than vague assertions argument by dictat and is unsupported by any logical chain of reasoning and so qualifies as nothing more than Argumentum Ad Hominem and little else.

”To assert that Creation theory taken objectively simply implies the existence of a causal element is disingenuous. The underlying premise behind Creationism is the notion that God created the universe and life within it. Phrases such as "Intelligent Design" and "Creation Science" are nothing but religious dogmatism wrapped in a veneer of scientific nomenclature. Such notions are supernatural since they're inherently not natural. There is nothing scientific about them since they can't be observed, tested, or measured. They're nothing more than fanciful whim. The purpose of ID isn't to encourage critical thinking. It's to supplant it with wishful thinking. At best, ID is intellectual laziness. At worst, it's a canard. It breeds ignorance and irrationality which encourages the acceptance of quackery and pseudo-scientific claims (ie. faith healing, homeopathy, astrology, psychics). ”

Yawn. More of the same – telling other people what they believe while distorting it, name calling, and hissy fits – all illogical while invoking the Holy Name of “Science”. How utterly tiresomely predictable. The entire paragraph qualifies as nothing more than a temper tantrum, name calling, and how dare you's for failing to have faith in the “one true faith” of Holy Evolution. Yawn.

Because we do not at this point understand with clarity all of the factors and all of the elements involved in defining what life is and how it has come to be does not in any way validate Darwin's Religion.

As this article began with a logical fallacy so it ends: “It breeds ignorance and irrationality which encourages the acceptance of quackery and pseudo-scientific claims (ie. faith healing, homeopathy, astrology, psychics). ”

Fallacy Violated: Guilt by Association

I would laugh but watching someone have a childish temper tantrum is not something I find amusing.

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-26   2:04:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Original_Intent (#2)

The original article made sense. Although you are very wordy, I could not follow your arguments and after a short time of trying, I skipped the rest. Using a lot of big words like you do is not at all what I would call a good argument. If your argument cannot be followed; if it does not make sense then it it not a good argument and logically fails.

DWornock  posted on  2007-12-27   6:00:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: DWornock (#3) (Edited)

Actually it was more of a deconstruction, but nevertheless your criticism is valid and taken as such. Somtimes I forget that not everyone shares my vocabulary and I just write without dumbing it down.

However, it is an intricate argument and following it also requires some background data that I assumed in the writing. (For example Darwin's Galapagos Finches.)

The problem of course was that each of the paragraphs of Alan's piece really should have been a separate post, but I got lazy and conglomerated it into one because I did not want to spend the next two weeks writing individual essays.

As well I am not a big bug on the I.D. vs. "Man is Mud" argument. It is not one I ordinarily spend a lot of time with. Not that I have not reached my own conclusion, that Intelligent Design better accounts for the observed phenomena, but that the extremities on both ends of the debate are fanatically fixed upon their particular "Axe". I do so love tweaking the Darwinists/Evolutionists/atheists/materialists though. They are as dogmatic as a hard core back woods fundamentalist and as totally oblivious to it. Their view being a fixation that "science" is an absolute rather than a tool to attempt to better understand the universe in which we live.

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2007-12-27   13:57:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: Alan Chapman (#1)

The Crickets are beginning to die of old age.

"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken

Original_Intent  posted on  2008-09-29   14:40:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Alan Chapman (#0) (Edited)

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics vs. Evolution Fallacy: Evolution doesn't violate the 2nd Law unless bogus provisos are added. The claim that they're mutually exclusive was shown to be fallacious years ago in scientific journals. The 2nd Law applies only to a closed, isolated system which energy can neither enter nor exit. Earth isn't a closed, isolated system. It receives megajoules of energy from the sun every second.

That's my personal favorite, and a reminder of why Bible thumpers should go back and take an 8th grade science class before they embarass themselves on the internet.

If we follow Bible thumper reasoning, ice crystals growing on a window or salt crystals at the edge of a pond are an impossibility because crystals "violate the 2nd law of thermodynamics." LOL.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-09-29   14:49:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Alan Chapman, wudidiz, All (#5)

We are now approaching 2 years without a response.

May I take that at as having won the debate?

"An education isn't how much you have committed to memory, or even how much you know. It's being able to differentiate between what you know and what you don't. ~ Anatole France

Original_Intent  posted on  2009-08-27   15:21:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Original_Intent (#7)

I believe you won the debate before it started.


"The trouble with people is not that they don't know but that they know so much that ain't so." ~ Josh Billings

wudidiz  posted on  2009-08-28   18:41:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: wudidiz (#8)

I do believe we are now approaching the three year mark with no rebuttal. Something suggests to me that dear Alan is now somewhere "over the rainbow".

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-08-11   16:40:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Original_Intent (#9)

"over the rainbow"

This is worth you waiting for it to load


No Planes. Think about it. ... Guaranteed Penetration (no it's not porn)... "To see what is in front of one's nose requires a constant struggle." ~ George Orwell... Israelis For 9/11 Truth

wudidiz  posted on  2011-08-13   2:02:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: wudidiz (#10)

Got it. Thanks for the recommendation.

Remember The White Rose
"“Believe nothing merely because you have been told it. Do not believe what your teacher tells you merely out of respect for the teacher. But whatsoever, after due examination and analysis, you find to be kind, conducive to the good, the benefit, the welfare of all beings - that doctrine believe and cling to, and take it as your guide.” ~ Gautama Siddhartha — The Buddha

Original_Intent  posted on  2011-08-13   2:06:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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