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Title: New Year's Eve Thread
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Published: Dec 31, 2007
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Post Date: 2007-12-31 14:14:52 by robin
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Views: 970
Comments: 105
Poster Comment: And a digital Doomsday Clock 
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#23. To: who knows what evil, all (#8)
LOL! Joke: This penguin walks into a bar and asks the bartender, "Have you seen my brother?" The bartender replies, "I dunno. What does he look like?"
I don't think physicians on average earn that much as compared to the cost of their education and training and long hours and liability. Consider how much secretaries were earning in dotcom days just for being employees in techie industry. Consider how much stock brokers were earning during the stock market investment heady days with a BA as their "qualification". Consider how much money mortgage loan associates were earning up until this summer - some of whom did not even have college degrees. Would you prefer that physicians earn salaries similar to that of Postal workers? MD's are the smartest professionals in society - some might say "arguably so" in light of Med Schools being forced to implement affirmative action to a certain degree with regards to the candidates they accept these days - but nonetheless generally speaking MD's are way up there in intellectual ability so why shouldn't they be earning good salaries? And I disagree with you about physicians profiting from pharmaceuticals. They prescribe generics whenever they can. Furthermore, medical research is too costly for government alone to support unless you want your taxes to be increased to astronomical levels - private industry off-sets the costs of some medical research but those companies are declared as being involved when findings are published in medical journals. I think of all professions, medicine is still one of the truly honorable ones left, but that's my personal opinion. Others might choose law,education, clergy, banking, engineering, I guess...
I'd choose veterinarians - especially large animal vets.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution Yes, vets are honorable professionals - I respect vets as well as medical doctors. Getting into vet school is almost as competitive as getting into med school. Vet training in some ways is more challenging because vets need to be proficient in learning about the physiology and diseases that are associated with a number of different animals not just one mammal.
From my perspective the amount of schooling is irrelevant - it is the value of the valuable final product. Even a "lowly paid" GP pulls down in the vicinity of 350K per year. That is not chicken feed, but the question isn't a matter of remuneration. I do not object to someone making obscene amounts of money if they are providing a valuable final product. It would take me a couple of days to back up my conclusions properly because there is a wealth of evidence to support my viewpoint. One could point at the revolving door at the FDA or that ONLY people who have been through an AMA approved program are allowed to practice etc., ... Medicine, the healing arts, has been highly politicized and manipulated in this country in order to provide guaranteed high profits for a few. To even sit for the Medical Licensing Exam one must have attended and graduated from an AMA accredited program. That is the choke point where much of the control is hidden. The AMA dictates what is an acceptable curriculum and controls accreditation (almost needless to say the AMA is in financially symbiotic relationship with the Pharmaceutical Industry) and that curriculum is designed to emphasize use of Pharmaceutical Industry products. A School which does not toe the AMA line loses its accreditation and its Medical Degrees become worthless. Most programs include no more than 4 Credit Hours of Diet and Nutrition - the average Doctor knows less about diet than your average Athletic Trainer. Nutrition and alternatives to Pharmaceuticals are NOT part of the curriculum, and because of laws installed to benefit the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex Alternative Practitioners are locked out and operate under very tight restrictions as to what they can say and do. Further, by controlling accreditation the AMA controls how many schools can teach medicine and thus how many seats and thence how many "Doctors" in Practice. This creates an artificial shortage holding up the level of fees Doctors can provide. As well it puts a burden on the student as there is no good reason to require an undergratuate degree to enter Medical School. The curriculum could be cut immediately by 2 full years by simply dropping that requirement and adding 2 years to the Medical School program to teach those few undergraduate courses actually required. It is by no coincidence that alternatives to pharmaceuticals are not researched. The Fedgov spends hundreds of millions to billions annually on supporting research and all of it is Pharmaceutical oriented. Why? The Pharmaceutical Cartel controls the FDA and NIH which direct the grants. Alternatives are simply not funded. Of course this is the same NIH which funded the Tuskegee Syphylis "Experiment" and had its head of "Early Childhood Development" (A Psychiatrist M.D.) running experiments on children in Harlem with unapproved, or banned, Psychiatric Drugs. He who pays the piper dictates the tune. The point on much of the "medical" research being done being funded by Pharmaceutical companies is that they are in business to promote and sell THEIR products. They are not funding research out of any philanthropic urge. It is all directed ultimately toward moving more product. Of course they do not fund research into alternatives to their wares, and have lobbied heavily to have alternatives put under tighter and tighter restrictions, they are in business to make money not necessarily to cure people. They are much more interested in "treatments" not cures. Treatments provide a long term income stream whereas it stops if someone is actually cured. (The FDA has now tried on at least 3 separate occasions I am aware of to have common vitamins made "Prescription Only".) This is not to say that all Doctors are bad, nor that most do not wish their patients well as they are as much victims of this system of control as their ill served patients. Most are ignorant, not to mention arrogantly so, as to the politics which dictate how they practice their profession. As well, I haven't seen the numbers recently, there have been several studies in recent years showing that the number one preventable cause of death in the United States is, Drum Roll Please, Physician Error - followed closely by adverse drug reactions. M.D.'s are not "Gods" and the allopathic modality of treatment is not the only viable option. It is simply the option that has been enshrined in law and its competitors attacked via other laws passed at the behest of the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex. I would simply invite you to dig into the subject for yourself, and you will quickly find out that this brief summary, if anything, understates the problem.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
I mean't to address that as well but forgot. Just a couple of quick points - ever see a Pharma Sales Rep visit a Doctors Office with all their "gifts", buying lunch for all the staff etc., ...? I have. Well connected, and well known, Doctors are given fat consulting fees, invited to speak for inflated fees - to push product, etc., .... Doctors profit heavily from the Pharma Oligopoly and their protection to practice "medicine" with minimal competition is protected by the Pharma Cartel. Without getting into the desirability of taking some drugs the fact that some drugs are patented, to protect the investment offffffff course, means that the cost of the drug is inflated to many times its actual worth. Further because the restrictions upon what constitutes a drug, who can prescribe them, and who can manufacture them is highly regulated by, you guessed it, the thoroughly compromised and owned FDA guess who benefits? Why the existing players because at upwards of 120 million dollars to get a treatment approved, regardless of benefit, only the largest and most heavily capitalized companies can even afford to jump through all the hoops. Amazing how that works. Follow the money.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
If only that were true. My argument has always been that the church has failed in its job here. Modern medicine has its pitfalls to be sure. Nevertheless, there have been miraculous advances in science and medicine in the last 100 years.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today! If only that were true. My argument has always been that the church has failed in its job here. Another Master's Thesis begging comment. Simply, if you dig into the history of American Philanthropy and self help - it began to die following the Depression. Prior to that it had been robust and most of the "Social Services" now run by government bureaucrats were handled by private charities. They began to die following the institutionalization of coerced charity, now called "entitlements" which began in earnest under FDR following the engieered collapse of the American Economy called the "Great Depression". The Depression by the way was not caused by the collapse of the Stock Market but, as Milton Friedman has pointed out, by tthe Federal Reserve by shreinking the Money Supply by a full third between 1931 and 1933. With the lack of liquidity in the economy the wheels of commerce ground to a halt because there was insufficient money in circulation to keep the machine greased and running. You should pay less attention to PR and pay more attention to actual results. As I pointed out earlier the greatest factors in disease reduction and increased longevity can be traced to public health measures and disease prevention rather than treatment. And among the miracles one can find Thalidomide, Vioxx, and Prozac Crazed Berserkers. Some miracle. Pardon my apparent cynicism but I have spent too much time reading and researching in the area to be impressed with the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex's self serving PR campaigns any more. Have their been advances? Yes. Some have been substantial jumps forward, BUT they have not occurred with the frequency which the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex's PR Agencies would like people to believe. For your edification: Why American's Will Believe Almost Anything
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
b. Even a "lowly paid" GP pulls down in the vicinity of 350K per year. c. Most are ignorant, not to mention arrogantly so, as to the politics which dictate how they practice their profession. d. As well, I haven't seen the numbers recently, there have been several studies in recent years showing that the number one preventable cause of death in the United States is, Drum Roll Please, Physician Error - followed closely by adverse drug reactions. e. M.D.'s are not "Gods" and the allopathic modality of treatment is not the only viable option. It is simply the option that has been enshrined in law and its competitors attacked via other laws passed at the behest of the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex. a. What alternative do you suggest to take the place of medical education and hospital training to get society a better "product?" b. Wrong. GP's earn on average $130,000 -$150,000. They work on average 53 hours per week. Higher end sub-specialties are lucky if they earn $350,000. c. MD's are not ignorant. In a study of IQ as it relates to occupations, MD's are at the top. www.iqcomparisonsite.com /Occupations.aspx d. Medical error reports have their controversies regarding accuracy. www.acponline.org/ journals/ecp/novdec00/sox.htm "How Many Deaths Are Due to Medical Error? Getting the Number Right" Furthermore "medical errors" does not equate physician malpractice. Physicians are one of a number of professionals involved in patient care in hospitals. Also, it goes without saying that hospitals have inherrent dangers for sick people - viral TB being an endemic organisms in hospitals. But for a very sick person, hospitals offer the best opportunity to get better inspite of the risks. e. MD's are not Gods - but they are the best qualified profession we have in Western society to assist us with illness. You are welcome to heal yourself with vitamin dosing and alternative treatments offered in Mexico and Bali. The so called Medical Complex does not prevent you from doing so.
You make a good argument and I quite agree about Big Pharma, but I still wouldn't want to live in the Dark Ages. There is progress that is not about drugs that is very impressive.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today! If we don't elect RP, we WILL go into the Dark Ages. We're close enough, already.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution I used to own horses .. and was looking at buying a Paso Fino.. there is a breeder near me that breeds very very nice ones.. I didnt have the land at the time to keep one.. I had an registered app and a quarter/app mare.. but I really wanted a Paso Fino.. maybe one day.
I agree, RP calls it "soft fascism", but I think that's putting it politely. I was watching the History channel's show on the Knights Templar. Did you know they had their own banking system (speculation is that several Templars ended up in Switzerland, the timing is right and Swiss banks are also very secretive). King Philip the Fair of France owed the Templars a bunch of money so he got rid of one pope on charges of devil worship, got a new one who was his buddy, then charged the Templars with devil worship (it worked before); causing them to be disbanded - and voila, Philip's debts vanished. The Dark Ages followed the fall of the Roman Empire and were a time when the people had nothing and the Kings everything. There were roving gangs of hoodlums who made life a misery. Centuries later, the Templars were in every town in Europe, creating opportunities for the people, until a monarch was worried about the power they held, and with the Crusades over, they weren't useful to them anymore.
Ron Paul for President - Join a Ron Paul Meetup group today! I'll keep you posted - my brother and I are really geeked about them, and he's got two little grandkids that will be needing a pony...GYATT soon.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution The breeder that lives in my area had the MOST gorgeous stallion you've ever laid eyes on.. he was a bay.. SO beautiful.. moved like a dream
The Dark Ages followed the fall of the Roman Empire and were a time when the people had nothing and the Kings everything. There were roving gangs of hoodlums who made life a misery. Centuries later, the Templars were in every town in Europe, creating opportunities for the people, until a monarch was worried about the power they held, and with the Crusades over, they weren't useful to them anymore. That sounds about right. You mix and match the church and the bank and you can play just about any tune that you wish. Nothing's gonna change, until everything changes - whenever that day comes. Come quickly.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution Mine too ... no hang over tomorrow is my goal tonite !
"Banking was conceived in iniquity and was born in sin. The bankers own the earth. Take it away from them, but leave them the power to create money, and with the flick of the pen they will create enough deposits to buy it back again. However, take it away from them, and all the great fortunes like mine will disappear and they ought to disappear, for this would be a happier and better world to live in. But, if you wish to remain the slaves of bankers and pay the cost of your own slavery, let them continue to create money ." --- Josiah Stamp
b. Wrong. GP's earn on average $130,000 -$150,000. They work on average 53 hours per week. Higher end sub-specialties are lucky if they earn $350,000. c. MD's are not ignorant. In a study of IQ as it relates to occupations, MD's are at the top. d. Medical error reports have their controversies regarding accuracy. e. MD's are not Gods - but they are the best qualified profession we have in Western society to assist us with illness. You are welcome to heal yourself with vitamin dosing and alternative treatments offered in Mexico and Bali. The so called Medical Complex does not prevent you from doing so. a. It would take some sorting out, but certainly opening up the field to researching options other than Pharmaceutical Company wares. There is a lot of anecdotal and clinical evidence that some natural/holistic treatments are as effective, if not more so, than the limited repetoire now enshrined in law and regulation. For example I am minded of a study released this year on the treatment of Diabetes Patients with diet as the basis. Half of the Study Group was given the standard diet for Diabetes and the other half put on a Vegan Diet. The difference was marked. The group eating a Vegan diet - in most cases - saw marked improvement in their condition with some no longer needing medication, some no longer showing a diabetic condition, and others were able to reduce the amount of medication they took. The problem in sorting it out and establishing a curriculum aimed at healing rather than treating is that the current system is enshrined, in power, and anyone, including MD's, who try to break free of the strictures of that modality are attacked. b. I stand corrected. c. I said ignorance not intelligence. I have an I.Q. that puts me in the upper half of the upper 1% but that does not automatically make me knowledgable in all areas nor would I ever pretend it does - deep down I'm really humble. I.Q. relates to problem solving ability and the ability to learn, but a person with a high I.Q. and no knowledge in an area is still ignorant in that area. d. I would not deny that there is some controversy, BUT how much of that controversy is to bury an inconvenient fact is open to further debate. e. That was not my point, and best qualified by whose PR Company? The point is that Allopathic Medicine, which is what AMA Brand M.D.'s practice is not the only modality of treatment and that there is anecdotal and clinical evidence to suggest that they could learn a lot from other branches of healing. However, because of their training, and the arrogance and insularity it inspires, alternatives are not researched, nor funded, other than by an occasional maverick who discovers something that can't be hushed up and buried the way Royal Raymond Rife was.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
The RRR reference gives you total credence here. Thanks.
Join the Ron Paul Revolution You are welcome. Thank you.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
Speaking of medicine; the first Arrogant Bastard ale of the evening has been poured, and is being served in an attractive Otter Creek Oktoberfest mug. Oh, yeah...that's good...
It is also going to be a chaotic year with tumult and rumours running rife. However, I have a growing sense that we will come through in the end. It will still take a couple more years to sort out but I think this will be the year upon which the future pivots. down for nap...
"For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst and provide for it." ~ Patrick Henry
I just gave $100 to RonPaul2008, I hope you bums can too.
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
I just gave $100 to RonPaul2008, I thought there was a Dec 31 Money Bomb. That and I bet a member of our local meetup group he'd break 20 mil by end of year. Help me out.
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
Well now that I have a major buzz on.. HAPPY NEW YEAR everyone !! :P
You too.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
cheers
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
Cheers back at cha ~Have you ever tried Full Moon beer.. it's basically swill but hey what the heck :P
Nope, I only like Mexican beer. And only then with a little fresh squeezed lime.
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
I am drinking Natural Light, the cheapest beer in Texas. I ended up with a trunk full last week and I am too lazy to go buy anything else. It's not bad after a few drinks.
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Ron who? I blew all my money on Arrogant Bastard ale at the liquor store today, and have been knocking them down with my wife all evening after getting hooked on YouTube videos that you got me started on with Montrose hours ago...
Glad I could help. Johnny Edgar Winter Rick Derringer !!! "Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
Oh, yeah...having a great time...back to listening to Ritchie Blackmore's Rainbow.
Why do people celebrate a year changing? No one celebrates a month changing.
God is always good!
We celebrate weeks ending. I do anyway.
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
No, but that might be a good idea.
Do we get the next day off too?
"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
Hell, yeah. Great idea.
I used to get "Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs
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Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/LatestAll this optimistic crap is making me barf...the REAL question here is...what is everybody drinking tonight? :-)
#24. To: Original_Intent (#16)
(Edited)
It is the Medical Monopoly in this country which has rigged the laws to profit from people's needs and wants.
#25. To: scrapper2 (#24)
Others might choose law,education, clergy, banking, engineering, I guess...
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity
#26. To: lodwick (#25)
I'd choose veterinarians - especially large animal vets.
#27. To: scrapper2 (#24)
I don't think physicians on average earn that much as compared to the cost of their education and training and long hours and liability. Consider how much secretaries were earning in dotcom days just for being employees in techie industry. Consider how much stock brokers were earning during the stock market investment heady days with a BA as their "qualification". Consider how much money mortgage loan associates were earning up until this summer - some of whom did not even have college degrees. And I disagree with you about physicians profiting from pharmaceuticals. They prescribe generics whenever they can. Furthermore, medical research is too costly for government to support unless you want your taxes to be increased to astronomical levels - private industry off sets the costs of some medical research but those companies are declared as being involved when findings are published. I think of all professions, medicine is still one of the truly honorable ones left, but that's my personal opinion. Others might choose law, education, clergy, banking, engineering, I guess...
"Any pursuit is great when greatly pursued." ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes
#28. To: scrapper2 (#24)
And I disagree with you about physicians profiting from pharmaceuticals. They prescribe generics whenever they can.
#29. To: Original_Intent (#16)
Much of which demonstrates no need for a government to do those things since people can, and do, do them without coercion and force.
The Revolution will not be televised!
#30. To: robin (#29)
Much of which demonstrates no need for a government to do those things since people can, and do, do them without coercion and force.
Modern medicine has its pitfalls to be sure. Nevertheless, there have been miraculous advances in science and medicine in the last 100 years.
#31. To: Original_Intent (#27)
a. From my perspective the amount of schooling is irrelevant - it is the value of the valuable final product.
#32. To: Original_Intent (#30)
the greatest factors in disease reduction and increased longevity can be traced to public health measures and disease prevention rather than treatment. And among the miracles one can find Thalidomide, Vioxx, and Prozac Crazed Berserkers. Some miracle.
The Revolution will not be televised!
#33. To: robin. everyone here (#32)
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity
#34. To: lodwick (#3)
#35. To: lodwick (#33)
If we don't elect RP, we WILL go into the Dark Ages.
The Revolution will not be televised!
#36. To: Zipporah (#34)
maybe one day.
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity
#37. To: lodwick (#36)
#38. To: robin (#35)
I was watching the History channel's show on the Knights Templar. Did you know they had their own banking system (speculation is that several Templars ended up in Switzerland, the timing is right and Swiss banks are also very secretive). King Philip the Fair of France owed the Templars a bunch of money so he got rid of one pope on charges of devil worship, got a new one who was his buddy, then charged the Templars with devil worship (it worked before); causing them to be disbanded - and voila, Philip's debts vanished.
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity
#39. To: lodwick (#19)
You guys can have ALL mine.
#40. To: scrapper2 (#31)
a. What alternative do you suggest to take the place of medical education and hospital training to get society a better "product?"
#41. To: Original_Intent (#40)
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity
#42. To: lodwick (#41)
#43. To: Original_Intent (#42)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#44. To: Original_Intent, robin, TwentyTwelve, christine, Zipporah, Peppa, Indie Tx, Pinguinite, all (#1)
This is going to be a momentous year.
#45. To: who knows what evil, Original_Intent, wudidiz, dakmar (#43)
My spelling is Wobbly. It's good spelling but it Wobbles, and the letters get in the wrong places. -- Winnie the Pooh
#46. To: farmfriend, who knows what evil, Original_Intent, wudidiz (#45)
#47. To: wudidiz, Original_Intent, robin, TwentyTwelve, christine, Zipporah, Peppa, Indie Tx, Pinguinite, (#44)
#48. To: wudidiz, farm friend, robin, TwentyTwelve, christine, Zipporah, Peppa, Indie Tx, Pinguinite, FormerLurker, mirage, Peppa, all (#44)
#49. To: robin (#0)
#50. To: Dakmar (#47)
#51. To: Zipporah (#49)
#52. To: Dakmar (#51)
#53. To: Zipporah (#52)
Full Moon beer
#54. To: Zipporah (#52)
#55. To: Dakmar (#46)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#56. To: who knows what evil (#55)
#57. To: Dakmar (#56)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#58. To: robin (#0)
#59. To: RickyJ (#58)
#60. To: RickyJ (#58)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#61. To: who knows what evil (#60)
#62. To: Dakmar (#61)
Remember...G-d saved more animals than people on the ark. www.siameserescue.org
#63. To: who knows what evil (#62)
(Edited)
todayyesterday off until now when I'll get MLKII Day off which is still in the future.
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