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Title: New Year's Eve Thread
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Published: Dec 31, 2007
Author: none
Post Date: 2007-12-31 14:14:52 by robin
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Views: 1155
Comments: 105
Poster Comment: And a digital Doomsday Clock 
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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 55.
#1. To: robin, TwentyTwelve, christine, Zipporah, Wudidiz, Peppa, Indie Tx, Pinguinite, all (#0)
This is going to be a momentous year. It is also going to be a chaotic year with tumult and rumours running rife. However, I have a growing sense that we will come through in the end. It will still take a couple more years to sort out but I think this will be the year upon which the future pivots.
Although we post a lot of negative worst case scenarios on 4um, I am mindful of the importance of keeping a positive attitude. Like my paternal grandmother, who was born in Oregon Territory in 1888, and lived 99 years, every year lived in the present. She had an excellent memory but enjoyed this year's peach crop looking ahead to the annual deer hunt (she went deer hunting with her siblings into her 80s). Like most of her generation, she kept herself occupied with something productive everyday, attended church every week and never dwelt on past misfortunes.
That is the spirit which built this nation. It wasn't done by glum naysayers wallowing in self pitty. The attitude can be summed up thusly: "Deal with it!" My own paternal grandfather, who lived to within ten days of his 100th birthday, retired from farming at 85 - the same year he quit smoking. In his 90's he would walk 5 miles each day down to the Boat Dock to work on his boat, and snooze in the sun, and was active and aware till his final day. They were a staunch spirit those who built our West. We can't let them down now. UP THE UNIVERSE!
They also took care of each other O_I, barn-raisings, taking in their neighbor's orphaned children, etc. (of course medical care was very basic and not very costly - no expensive lab tests, hospital bills or meds; everyone lost a sibling to something and there were lots of widowers and widows).
Much of which demonstrates no need for a government to do those things since people can, and do, do them without coercion and force. As for the affects of medical "science", implied in your comment, the reality is that public health measures had a much greater impact upon childhood mortality and longevity. Children are the most susceptible as their immune systems are not yet fully developed. As well when you have 11 kids in a family, as my father's, your odds of losing a family member to accident or disease is much higher. (Out of 11 kids in my dad's family 10 lived long lives and most died in their 70's or later. He had one brother who died from Pneumonia at age 13.) It would be an interesting study to see the percentage of people who die from prescription medications versus mortality from disease in the 1880's. The link between clean water and sewage treatment to decreased infant, and adult, mortality from disease is a proven matter and the numbers are a matter of public record. The Great Cholera, and Typhus, Epidemic of England in the early 1800's was linked directly to drinking water contaminated with human waste i.e., wells were dug, sometimes only feet, from cesspits. When the drinking water supply was cleaned up, and sewer system built, the epidemic disappeared. Prescription medicines are not the panacea claimed by their advertising and PR people. When one actually looks at the background data other factors begin stepping out of the mix. Certainly anti-biotics have had a good effect, but there is no need for most of them to be only by prescription - in most countries other than the U.S. they are not. It is the Medical Monopoly in this country which has rigged the laws to profit from people's needs and wants. As well improvements in diet, greater knowledge of what constitutes a healthful diet, acts as a preventative for disease. So, while the AMA would like to take all the credit, and try to, they were a lesser factor than simple public health measures and improved diet.
I don't think physicians on average earn that much as compared to the cost of their education and training and long hours and liability. Consider how much secretaries were earning in dotcom days just for being employees in techie industry. Consider how much stock brokers were earning during the stock market investment heady days with a BA as their "qualification". Consider how much money mortgage loan associates were earning up until this summer - some of whom did not even have college degrees. Would you prefer that physicians earn salaries similar to that of Postal workers? MD's are the smartest professionals in society - some might say "arguably so" in light of Med Schools being forced to implement affirmative action to a certain degree with regards to the candidates they accept these days - but nonetheless generally speaking MD's are way up there in intellectual ability so why shouldn't they be earning good salaries? And I disagree with you about physicians profiting from pharmaceuticals. They prescribe generics whenever they can. Furthermore, medical research is too costly for government alone to support unless you want your taxes to be increased to astronomical levels - private industry off-sets the costs of some medical research but those companies are declared as being involved when findings are published in medical journals. I think of all professions, medicine is still one of the truly honorable ones left, but that's my personal opinion. Others might choose law,education, clergy, banking, engineering, I guess...
From my perspective the amount of schooling is irrelevant - it is the value of the valuable final product. Even a "lowly paid" GP pulls down in the vicinity of 350K per year. That is not chicken feed, but the question isn't a matter of remuneration. I do not object to someone making obscene amounts of money if they are providing a valuable final product. It would take me a couple of days to back up my conclusions properly because there is a wealth of evidence to support my viewpoint. One could point at the revolving door at the FDA or that ONLY people who have been through an AMA approved program are allowed to practice etc., ... Medicine, the healing arts, has been highly politicized and manipulated in this country in order to provide guaranteed high profits for a few. To even sit for the Medical Licensing Exam one must have attended and graduated from an AMA accredited program. That is the choke point where much of the control is hidden. The AMA dictates what is an acceptable curriculum and controls accreditation (almost needless to say the AMA is in financially symbiotic relationship with the Pharmaceutical Industry) and that curriculum is designed to emphasize use of Pharmaceutical Industry products. A School which does not toe the AMA line loses its accreditation and its Medical Degrees become worthless. Most programs include no more than 4 Credit Hours of Diet and Nutrition - the average Doctor knows less about diet than your average Athletic Trainer. Nutrition and alternatives to Pharmaceuticals are NOT part of the curriculum, and because of laws installed to benefit the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex Alternative Practitioners are locked out and operate under very tight restrictions as to what they can say and do. Further, by controlling accreditation the AMA controls how many schools can teach medicine and thus how many seats and thence how many "Doctors" in Practice. This creates an artificial shortage holding up the level of fees Doctors can provide. As well it puts a burden on the student as there is no good reason to require an undergratuate degree to enter Medical School. The curriculum could be cut immediately by 2 full years by simply dropping that requirement and adding 2 years to the Medical School program to teach those few undergraduate courses actually required. It is by no coincidence that alternatives to pharmaceuticals are not researched. The Fedgov spends hundreds of millions to billions annually on supporting research and all of it is Pharmaceutical oriented. Why? The Pharmaceutical Cartel controls the FDA and NIH which direct the grants. Alternatives are simply not funded. Of course this is the same NIH which funded the Tuskegee Syphylis "Experiment" and had its head of "Early Childhood Development" (A Psychiatrist M.D.) running experiments on children in Harlem with unapproved, or banned, Psychiatric Drugs. He who pays the piper dictates the tune. The point on much of the "medical" research being done being funded by Pharmaceutical companies is that they are in business to promote and sell THEIR products. They are not funding research out of any philanthropic urge. It is all directed ultimately toward moving more product. Of course they do not fund research into alternatives to their wares, and have lobbied heavily to have alternatives put under tighter and tighter restrictions, they are in business to make money not necessarily to cure people. They are much more interested in "treatments" not cures. Treatments provide a long term income stream whereas it stops if someone is actually cured. (The FDA has now tried on at least 3 separate occasions I am aware of to have common vitamins made "Prescription Only".) This is not to say that all Doctors are bad, nor that most do not wish their patients well as they are as much victims of this system of control as their ill served patients. Most are ignorant, not to mention arrogantly so, as to the politics which dictate how they practice their profession. As well, I haven't seen the numbers recently, there have been several studies in recent years showing that the number one preventable cause of death in the United States is, Drum Roll Please, Physician Error - followed closely by adverse drug reactions. M.D.'s are not "Gods" and the allopathic modality of treatment is not the only viable option. It is simply the option that has been enshrined in law and its competitors attacked via other laws passed at the behest of the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex. I would simply invite you to dig into the subject for yourself, and you will quickly find out that this brief summary, if anything, understates the problem.
b. Even a "lowly paid" GP pulls down in the vicinity of 350K per year. c. Most are ignorant, not to mention arrogantly so, as to the politics which dictate how they practice their profession. d. As well, I haven't seen the numbers recently, there have been several studies in recent years showing that the number one preventable cause of death in the United States is, Drum Roll Please, Physician Error - followed closely by adverse drug reactions. e. M.D.'s are not "Gods" and the allopathic modality of treatment is not the only viable option. It is simply the option that has been enshrined in law and its competitors attacked via other laws passed at the behest of the Medico-Pharmaceutical Complex. a. What alternative do you suggest to take the place of medical education and hospital training to get society a better "product?" b. Wrong. GP's earn on average $130,000 -$150,000. They work on average 53 hours per week. Higher end sub-specialties are lucky if they earn $350,000. c. MD's are not ignorant. In a study of IQ as it relates to occupations, MD's are at the top. www.iqcomparisonsite.com /Occupations.aspx d. Medical error reports have their controversies regarding accuracy. www.acponline.org/ journals/ecp/novdec00/sox.htm "How Many Deaths Are Due to Medical Error? Getting the Number Right" Furthermore "medical errors" does not equate physician malpractice. Physicians are one of a number of professionals involved in patient care in hospitals. Also, it goes without saying that hospitals have inherrent dangers for sick people - viral TB being an endemic organisms in hospitals. But for a very sick person, hospitals offer the best opportunity to get better inspite of the risks. e. MD's are not Gods - but they are the best qualified profession we have in Western society to assist us with illness. You are welcome to heal yourself with vitamin dosing and alternative treatments offered in Mexico and Bali. The so called Medical Complex does not prevent you from doing so.
b. Wrong. GP's earn on average $130,000 -$150,000. They work on average 53 hours per week. Higher end sub-specialties are lucky if they earn $350,000. c. MD's are not ignorant. In a study of IQ as it relates to occupations, MD's are at the top. d. Medical error reports have their controversies regarding accuracy. e. MD's are not Gods - but they are the best qualified profession we have in Western society to assist us with illness. You are welcome to heal yourself with vitamin dosing and alternative treatments offered in Mexico and Bali. The so called Medical Complex does not prevent you from doing so. a. It would take some sorting out, but certainly opening up the field to researching options other than Pharmaceutical Company wares. There is a lot of anecdotal and clinical evidence that some natural/holistic treatments are as effective, if not more so, than the limited repetoire now enshrined in law and regulation. For example I am minded of a study released this year on the treatment of Diabetes Patients with diet as the basis. Half of the Study Group was given the standard diet for Diabetes and the other half put on a Vegan Diet. The difference was marked. The group eating a Vegan diet - in most cases - saw marked improvement in their condition with some no longer needing medication, some no longer showing a diabetic condition, and others were able to reduce the amount of medication they took. The problem in sorting it out and establishing a curriculum aimed at healing rather than treating is that the current system is enshrined, in power, and anyone, including MD's, who try to break free of the strictures of that modality are attacked. b. I stand corrected. c. I said ignorance not intelligence. I have an I.Q. that puts me in the upper half of the upper 1% but that does not automatically make me knowledgable in all areas nor would I ever pretend it does - deep down I'm really humble. I.Q. relates to problem solving ability and the ability to learn, but a person with a high I.Q. and no knowledge in an area is still ignorant in that area. d. I would not deny that there is some controversy, BUT how much of that controversy is to bury an inconvenient fact is open to further debate. e. That was not my point, and best qualified by whose PR Company? The point is that Allopathic Medicine, which is what AMA Brand M.D.'s practice is not the only modality of treatment and that there is anecdotal and clinical evidence to suggest that they could learn a lot from other branches of healing. However, because of their training, and the arrogance and insularity it inspires, alternatives are not researched, nor funded, other than by an occasional maverick who discovers something that can't be hushed up and buried the way Royal Raymond Rife was.
The RRR reference gives you total credence here. Thanks.
You are welcome. Thank you.
Speaking of medicine; the first Arrogant Bastard ale of the evening has been poured, and is being served in an attractive Otter Creek Oktoberfest mug. Oh, yeah...that's good...
I just gave $100 to RonPaul2008, I hope you bums can too.
Ron who? I blew all my money on Arrogant Bastard ale at the liquor store today, and have been knocking them down with my wife all evening after getting hooked on YouTube videos that you got me started on with Montrose hours ago...
#56. To: who knows what evil (#55)
Glad I could help. Johnny Edgar Winter Rick Derringer !!!
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#5. To: Original_Intent (#1)
#7. To: robin (#5)
Like my paternal grandmother, who was born in Oregon Territory in 1888, and lived 99 years, every year lived in the present. She had an excellent memory but enjoyed this year's peach crop looking ahead to the annual deer hunt (she went deer hunting with her siblings into her 80s). Like most of her generation, she kept herself occupied with something productive everyday, attended church every week and never dwelt on past misfortunes.
#14. To: Original_Intent (#7)
#16. To: robin (#14)
They also took care of each other O_I, barn-raisings, taking in their neighbor's orphaned children, etc. (of course medical care was very basic and not very costly - no expensive lab tests, hospital bills or meds; everyone lost a sibling to something and there were lots of widowers and widows).
#24. To: Original_Intent (#16)
(Edited)
It is the Medical Monopoly in this country which has rigged the laws to profit from people's needs and wants.
#27. To: scrapper2 (#24)
I don't think physicians on average earn that much as compared to the cost of their education and training and long hours and liability. Consider how much secretaries were earning in dotcom days just for being employees in techie industry. Consider how much stock brokers were earning during the stock market investment heady days with a BA as their "qualification". Consider how much money mortgage loan associates were earning up until this summer - some of whom did not even have college degrees. And I disagree with you about physicians profiting from pharmaceuticals. They prescribe generics whenever they can. Furthermore, medical research is too costly for government to support unless you want your taxes to be increased to astronomical levels - private industry off sets the costs of some medical research but those companies are declared as being involved when findings are published. I think of all professions, medicine is still one of the truly honorable ones left, but that's my personal opinion. Others might choose law, education, clergy, banking, engineering, I guess...
"Any pursuit is great when greatly pursued." ~ Oliver Wendell Holmes
#31. To: Original_Intent (#27)
a. From my perspective the amount of schooling is irrelevant - it is the value of the valuable final product.
#40. To: scrapper2 (#31)
a. What alternative do you suggest to take the place of medical education and hospital training to get society a better "product?"
#41. To: Original_Intent (#40)
#42. To: lodwick (#41)
#43. To: Original_Intent (#42)
#45. To: who knows what evil, Original_Intent, wudidiz, dakmar (#43)
#46. To: farmfriend, who knows what evil, Original_Intent, wudidiz (#45)
#55. To: Dakmar (#46)
Replies to Comment # 55.
End Trace Mode for Comment # 55.