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Title: Review of January 5th, 2008 ABC GOP Debate
Source: 4
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 5, 2008
Author: buckeye
Post Date: 2008-01-05 21:57:08 by buckeye
Keywords: Ron Paul
Views: 2616
Comments: 103

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Quick synopsis

• Ron Paul, my focus during this event, was tired, slow to articulate his points, and easily overwhelmed by aggressive partisans.
• McCain appeared to withdraw his insistence on amnesty, and then spent excess time interrupting other candidates who were differentiating themselves from his former positions — in defense of what he had apologized for.
• Romney was effective at articulating his technical perspectives on issues (medical care, immigration) but clearly will not deviate from the Bush doctrines of war.
• Thompson was reserved and came across as a fat cat at times. He smirked at Ron Paul several times.
• Giuliani was about the same as he has always been. He smirked and laughed mirthlessly at Ron Paul several times.
• John McCain was especially demeaning to Ron Paul during discussion of war.
• Smirking and chuckling was prevalent when Ron Paul was talking about the Federal Reserve and inflation.

Illegal Immigration

This is my main reason for posting this thread.

• It became abundantly clear that no one on the stage would deal with illegal immigration adequately. PC rules the day. we are not being heard yet.
• Ron Paul lost an incredible chance to demonstrate his resolve on this issue, but he came close by emphasizing welfare.
• The other GOP members are weak-kneed and left themselves with massive openings for abandoning their commitments to deal with immigration.
• Huckabee talked about building a fence, and sounded like he's been listening to Gilchrist; his credibility is very low in my opinion.
• The American people have NOT communicated their anger effectively with these people.

Ron Paul's demeanor

This was a fair debate with an open format.

• Rushed, combative, on the defensive in many cases.
• Unable to keep up with cross-talk and interruptions.
• Should have worn a red tie, I'm hearing.

Ron Paul's victory

• He kept his temper when badly mistreated not by ABC, but by the other participants.
• He kept his humor, and joked several times.
• He did articulate the threat of inflation/monetary-abuse.
• He did talk about civil liberties and preemptive war.
• He did talk about free enterprise and the Constitution.
• He is the only candidate truly planning on implementing change.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 39.

#1. To: FOH, christine, iconoclast, Cynicom, who knows what evil, lodwick (#0)

ping

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-05   22:01:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

who knows what evil  posted on  2008-01-05   22:04:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

yeah, the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people. I'm not saying you should support someone because you'd like to have a beer with him, but by the same token, you probably shouldn't support someone who you'd rather see get beaten up in a bar fight.

kiki  posted on  2008-01-05   23:13:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people

The Republican establishment is not made up of "very nice people".

I have been musing over what shape Dr. Paul's game plan may take as the 2008 race goes forward.

I do not see evidence of RP's throwing much of the treasure chest around, and I have come to feel strongly that he will declare third party (unless someone on a white horse charges in, and I don't know who the hell that would be).

Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party in the form of a huge and painful and undeniable rejection of the treasonists in November.

iconoclast  posted on  2008-01-06   9:16:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

...I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party in the form of a huge and painful and undeniable rejection of the treasonists in November.

I'm watching this again (see [ABC Debate 1-5-08 Complete]).

I'm reminded of the following among the others:

1. Refusal to recognize the war's failures (Ron Paul got his alternative ideas out fairly well).
2. Refusal to admit that immigration policy has been terrible.
3. Glib attitudes toward the loss of America's manufacturing base.
4. Wanton reaffirmation of the intents of telecommunications spying, the Patriot Act and the MCA (Ron Paul talked about civil liberties).
5. An intentional lack of interest in inflation and monetary policy (Ron Paul nailed it on the price of oil).

I have to say again that Huckabee's preemptive health care was the most disturbing demonstration of his collectivism that I've heard to date.

Iconoclast, I hope you are RIGHT. For America's sake, I hope so.

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-06   10:15:37 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution

I have needed to think about this... for some time, before anything could/should be said. To be frank, I had trouble watching the debate. If there are people, and obviously there are, in America that were attracted to what the 'others' in this so-called debate had to say, then America is truly deserving of what is planned for her.

On the other side, for those who were not/are not familiar with Dr. Paul's message, I doubt he converted many. Robin is correct; there was a concerted effort by all others to belittle the message of Dr. Paul. That was pretty well done, although it is the only thing that was pretty well done 'by them.' And the message that Dr. Paul was putting out was intended for his base; this is a BIG mistake.

There is a common theme that runs through today's politics in America and that Dr. Paul needs to put out, or he is done.

1. We were told before the invasion of Iraq that the oil would pay for all expenses. We have now spent or committed more than 1 tillion dollars (repeat repeat repeat) and we can not afford to repair New Orleans - pay for health care - repair our infastructure - cut taxes for the middle class - repeat endlessly. Everytime something is said about paying for something, base it on i trillion dollars spent in a needless neverending war. Ask how much is enough? Ask if we need to spend 2 trillion. 3 trillion. 4 trillion.

There really is no other way to get this into the view of most Americans.

2. China now has more than 1.3 trillion dollars in reserve. Money that we Americans have spent on Chinese products because we no longer have any manufacturing in America. And, by the way, how many years did it take for China to accumualte all of that money? Yet, in Iraq, we have spent/commited more than 1 trillion dollars in just 4 years!

3. A prestiges British company/research institute (?) recently did an analysis of deaths in the civilian population in Iraq. They used internationally accepted methods in doing this, methods which have been used in many different locations around the world and which methods are accepted by the UN -- this research revealed that as many as 1 million EXTRA Iraq civilians have died in Iraq since the United States invaded the nation. 1 million needless deaths. 1 million. Repeat. Plus more than 4 thousand Americans have died there, and we have more than 20,000 (?) severly wounded, increased suicides, and etc.

No one needs to attack the others; all they need to do is put before the American public the facts that the major media denies, and, then back everything up on the web site. That is all that it takes, and I could not see that this is being done. Basically, he is playing, as far as I can see, by 'their' rules.

Keep playing by their rules, and this is simply, as I suspected from the beginning, an excercise in futility.

You are all correct in that Dr. Paul's message is the only message that is different. BUT...... therein lies the problem, because that means that it is outside of what Americans have come to consider normal. Which means that it is outside of their confort zone. Not many people are willing to change; it requires something akin to shock to force change on them, and, there was no shock in his message during the debate. And in particular in NH, that is something that would have been valued.

Dr. Paul was a gentleman. Gentlemen do not win these kinds of fights.

richard9151  posted on  2008-01-06   12:11:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#45. To: richard9151 (#39)

If there are people, and obviously there are, in America that were attracted to what the 'others' in this so-called debate had to say, then America is truly deserving of what is planned for her.

Right on.

There is a common theme that runs through today's politics in America and that Dr. Paul needs to put out, or he is done.

That's exactly what I'm saying here. I think one way he can do that is seize the illegal immigration issue by the horns and point out that he's the only one who won't pander to Hispanics, but will execute our domestic policy on behalf of all Americans equally. (I just heard on the McGloughlin group that the Democratic party is securing much of the Hispanic vote due to their friendliness toward illegals and their plights.)

Ron Paul started out so powerfully in this debate by implying early on that he was probably tougher on winning the war on terror by being focused on specific enemies rather than using symmetric methods to fight the war. But he lost the chance to deliver that message because he was a gentleman.

Ask how much is enough? Ask if we need to spend 2 trillion. 3 trillion. 4 trillion.

The GOP puppets and fair haired boys on that stage besides Ron Paul have no problem with deflating the value of the dollar ad infinitum. Ron Paul could have seized on that and driven it home. Our national defense is more tied to the value of the dollar than any foreign threat they can summon, and did with the city-nuking theme in the next DNC segment.

...this research revealed that as many as 1 million EXTRA Iraq civilians have died in Iraq since the United States invaded the nation.

I don't know whom to believe on this issue, and there's no doubt in my mind that the infighting we've seen is a major factor here, in any case. One thing is clear: our casualties have been wasted on this war. Our suffering has been for naught. Our young people are in wheel chairs and buried in cemeteries because of an invalid foreign policy that none of the other CFR puppets are going to change one iota.

Keep playing by their rules, and this is simply, as I suspected from the beginning, an excercise in futility.

Very true, and yet we have to be intelligent enough to rewrite the rules for ourselves without being seen as anarchists. A third party is the right way to go in my view, especially given what happened in Iowa and Wyoming.

Not many people are willing to change; it requires something akin to shock to force change on them, and, there was no shock in his message during the debate. And in particular in NH, that is something that would have been valued.

You nailed it. The common attack on my criticism of the Patriot Acts is "what freedoms have you lost?" The Establishment is careful to leave crumbs for the people such that they can be persuaded that their lives are acceptable.

Dr. Paul was a gentleman. Gentlemen do not win these kinds of fights.

Perhaps. The American people will have to think for themselves, and if they do not, we cannot force them to do so. Some people prefer self-posessed gentlemen over marionettes regardless of the issues involved.

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-06 12:54:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

You are all correct in that Dr. Paul's message is the only message that is different. BUT...... therein lies the problem, because that means that it is outside of what Americans have come to consider normal. Which means that it is outside of their comfort zone. Not many people are willing to change; it requires something akin to shock to force change on them, and, there was no shock in his message during the debate. And in particular in NH, that is something that would have been valued.

Excellent thoughts - thanks.

Lod  posted on  2008-01-06 12:55:53 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Thank you Richard for your long thoughtful post, I appreciate it
Dr Paul is offering USA citizens great government
If we do not get him in right now, we will have 4 years of hell ahead of us
If we do succeed in getting Ron Paul in Office, we will have saved our Constitution
the liberty of the people of the United States of America will be ensured
and we will not continue to rain hell with out bombs all over the world

God gave us free will
and by the grace of God, by a miracle, we still have free elections

If Dr Paul were not running, there would be no choice
we would have hell for next 4 years
Ron Paul gives us the choice for something completely different
we can save ourselves from hell by voting him President

Dr Paul does not need to do more than what he is doing
which is offering this choice

We will find out if our citizens choose it
whatever choice they make we will live

There won't be a second chance
without Dr Paul in Office, there will be police state
I doubt there will be free elections again
they will be fixed

I see no reason at this point why I should not trust my fellow citizens to make the right choice
I honestly believe Ron Paul is the candidate God supports, and having God's support is no small potatoes

It is early in the game, Ron Paul did beat Rudy in Iowa, he was only 3 points behind McCain and Fred Thompson
Ron Paul will do better in New Hampshire, and even better in South Carolina
Why not keep our chins up
All my love,
Palo

palo verde  posted on  2008-01-06 12:58:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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