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Title: Review of January 5th, 2008 ABC GOP Debate
Source: 4
URL Source: [None]
Published: Jan 5, 2008
Author: buckeye
Post Date: 2008-01-05 21:57:08 by buckeye
Keywords: Ron Paul
Views: 4884
Comments: 103

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Quick synopsis

• Ron Paul, my focus during this event, was tired, slow to articulate his points, and easily overwhelmed by aggressive partisans.
• McCain appeared to withdraw his insistence on amnesty, and then spent excess time interrupting other candidates who were differentiating themselves from his former positions — in defense of what he had apologized for.
• Romney was effective at articulating his technical perspectives on issues (medical care, immigration) but clearly will not deviate from the Bush doctrines of war.
• Thompson was reserved and came across as a fat cat at times. He smirked at Ron Paul several times.
• Giuliani was about the same as he has always been. He smirked and laughed mirthlessly at Ron Paul several times.
• John McCain was especially demeaning to Ron Paul during discussion of war.
• Smirking and chuckling was prevalent when Ron Paul was talking about the Federal Reserve and inflation.

Illegal Immigration

This is my main reason for posting this thread.

• It became abundantly clear that no one on the stage would deal with illegal immigration adequately. PC rules the day. we are not being heard yet.
• Ron Paul lost an incredible chance to demonstrate his resolve on this issue, but he came close by emphasizing welfare.
• The other GOP members are weak-kneed and left themselves with massive openings for abandoning their commitments to deal with immigration.
• Huckabee talked about building a fence, and sounded like he's been listening to Gilchrist; his credibility is very low in my opinion.
• The American people have NOT communicated their anger effectively with these people.

Ron Paul's demeanor

This was a fair debate with an open format.

• Rushed, combative, on the defensive in many cases.
• Unable to keep up with cross-talk and interruptions.
• Should have worn a red tie, I'm hearing.

Ron Paul's victory

• He kept his temper when badly mistreated not by ABC, but by the other participants.
• He kept his humor, and joked several times.
• He did articulate the threat of inflation/monetary-abuse.
• He did talk about civil liberties and preemptive war.
• He did talk about free enterprise and the Constitution.
• He is the only candidate truly planning on implementing change.

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 94.

#1. To: FOH, christine, iconoclast, Cynicom, who knows what evil, lodwick (#0)

ping

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-05   22:01:27 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

who knows what evil  posted on  2008-01-05   22:04:05 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Paul was the only one who didn't make a complete ass of himself.

yeah, the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people. I'm not saying you should support someone because you'd like to have a beer with him, but by the same token, you probably shouldn't support someone who you'd rather see get beaten up in a bar fight.

kiki  posted on  2008-01-05   23:13:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

the rest of them just didn't seem like very nice people

The Republican establishment is not made up of "very nice people".

I have been musing over what shape Dr. Paul's game plan may take as the 2008 race goes forward.

I do not see evidence of RP's throwing much of the treasure chest around, and I have come to feel strongly that he will declare third party (unless someone on a white horse charges in, and I don't know who the hell that would be).

Perhaps it is just wishful thinking on my part, but I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party in the form of a huge and painful and undeniable rejection of the treasonists in November.

iconoclast  posted on  2008-01-06   9:16:06 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

but I believe the good Doctor may/has come to the conclusion that the most realistic step toward return to a Constitution based government may be first putting a stake through the heart of the faux "conservative" party

It used to be that there were lots of paleocons in the GOP - the real conservatives. I think Dr. Paul speaks to them as well as the libertarians as well as to some Dems. I'm thinking that not only does there need to be a new GOP party but America truly needs a viable 3rd Party alternative. Most other countries in the Western World have at least 3 parties or more. Canada's NDP party has become a powerhouse in some provinces and recently has become the Prime Minister maker or breaker with the Liberals. The 2 party system is un-natural and dangerous ( too easy to bribe and control and to make under the table deals with one another) for a nation to keep for so many years as we have. That's why we're in the bind where we are.

If Dr. Paul went the 3rd party route - makes no difference to me ( the media hairdo's will try to spin it as RP going back on his word...screw 'em).

BUT if Dr. Paul does do 3rd party, I hope he doesn't have some weird new age inclusive name like reform or liberty lovers or whatever. He has always described himself as an old fashioned conservative, a GOP'er like what the party used to be and the new party should refer to those values in its name without chasing off the libertarians and centrist Dems who like traditional values. Constitutional Party has already been taken. Any suggestions?

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-06   13:17:11 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Any suggestions?

Jacksonians?

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-06   13:22:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Jacksonians?

Definitely not. Too much negativity associated with that group today: "nativism, isolationism" blah blah - a Jacksonian Party label would scare libertarians and centrist Dems away imo.

Fukayama ( a neocon theorist who broke with his compadres over the Iraq War) claims this about the unholy alliance between neocons and Jacksonians:

www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5239049

...Neoconservatism is one of four different approaches to American foreign policy today. There are, in addition to neoconservatism, "realists" in the tradition of Henry Kissinger, who respect power and tend to downplay the internal nature of other regimes and human rights concerns; there are liberal internationalists who hope to transcend power politics altogether and move to an international order based on law and institutions; and there are what Walter Russell Mead labels "Jacksonian" American nationalists, who tend to take a narrow, security-related view of American national interests, distrust multilateralism, and in their more extreme manifestations tend toward nativism and isolationism. The Iraq war was promoted by an alliance of neoconservatives and Jacksonian nationalists, who for different reasons accepted the logic of regime change in Baghdad. They sidelined the realists in the Republican Party like Brent Scowcroft and James Baker, who had served in George Herbert Walker Bush's administration and were skeptical about the rationale for the war...

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-06   13:41:10 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Fukayama ( a neocon theorist who broke with his compadres over the Iraq War) claims this about the unholy alliance between neocons and Jacksonians:

There is nothing wrong with the Jacksonians except they believed that the official story of 9/11 was reasonable. Ron Paul needs the Jacksonians to win. In fact, he is simply just an exceptionally intelligent Jacksonian himself.

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-06   13:57:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

There is nothing wrong with the Jacksonians except they believed that the official story of 9/11 was reasonable. Ron Paul needs the Jacksonians to win. In fact, he is simply just an exceptionally intelligent Jacksonian himself.

I'm thinking more that the Jacksonian label - today - could be easily spun the negative way. It's too open to criticism and mis-stating of policies.

Like instead of non-intervention critics would call it the party of isolationists. Instead of border control sovereignists, critics would call the Jacksonion party nativists, xenophobes. In "today speak," Jacksonian policies could be twisted/flipped very easily to infer negatives.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-06   14:26:38 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I'm thinking more that the Jacksonian label - today - could be easily spun the negative way. It's too open to criticism and mis-stating of policies.

Judging from LP's Hasbara-oriented criticism of RP, this is clearly an ethnic panic button issue. Flyover country could care less. Ron Paul has so far failed to capture their vote, although he is the best man to represent their values. (Based on Iowa and Wyoming.) I can't blame anyone else but Ron Paul for failing to reach them, and I think it's on the issue of immigration.

But in urban America, Ron Paul can reach the peace-minded Americans who always knew that war in Iraq was a mistake. This is a possibility we have yet to verify.

Yes, those peace-minded people could be driven away from RP by any semblance of political-incorrectness.

I'm frustrated because I see collectivism as ultimately the most inhumane of all policies, and leads to greater divides between the races and ethnic groups.

buckeye  posted on  2008-01-06   14:33:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

(Palo) I just found this post while lurking on another forum
so the Wyoming Caucus is meaningless ...

Wyoming voters do not vote in the caucus.
The delegates are chosen by the good- old-boys GOP club.
It is one of the oldest, most out-dated methods of caucus voting in the country,
and is not democratic at all.

So the results in Wyoming do not reflect what Wyoming citizens want

On to New Hampshire!!
Go Ron GO!!!

palo verde  posted on  2008-01-06   16:43:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Wyoming voters do not vote in the caucus.
The delegates are chosen by the good- old-boys GOP club.
It is one of the oldest, most out-dated methods of caucus voting in the country,
and is not democratic at all.

Not only that they don't even have to stick to it
they can change their mind at the convention

this is why media pays no attention to Wyoming caucus

palo verde  posted on  2008-01-06   16:49:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

WOW! Vote Fraud up the KAZOO

Itisa1mosttoolate  posted on  2008-01-06   16:53:48 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#98. To: Itisa1mosttoolate, ALL (#94)

YUP!!!

great post, Iiatl
Love, Palo

So the only primary which has meaning which has happened is Iowa
and interpreted correctly, it is very positive for Dr Paul

Ron Paul is now polling at 14 percent in New Hampshire
but since youth is on cell-phone, I figure the real number is 18 per cent

GO RON GO

ps, Ron Paul is ahead of Huckabee in New Hampshire polls

palo verde  posted on  2008-01-06 17:01:40 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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