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Title: Our World: The audacity of truth (CAROLINE GLICK ATTACKS RON PAUL, HUCKABEE, & OBAMA)
Source: Jerusalem Post
URL Source: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satell ... e=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
Published: Jan 22, 2008
Author: Caroline Glick
Post Date: 2008-01-23 11:29:15 by aristeides
Keywords: None
Views: 552
Comments: 37

Our World: The audacity of truth

Jan 21, 2008 21:49 | Updated Jan 22, 2008 9:15
By Caroline Glick

It is hard to believe, but in just two weeks, American voters will all but determine the identities of the Democratic and Republican nominees for this year's presidential elections. It is hard to believe because today, after a handful of early primaries, neither side has even identified a frontrunner.

The open race, unprecedented in recent history, is a consequence of the fragmentation of America's political center. Ten years after Bill Clinton's impeachment; seven years after President George W. Bush's contested victory in 2000; and five years into the Iraq campaign, the cleavages both between the two major parties and within them have given purchase to candidates and policies that would have previously never made it out of the starting gate.

On the Republican side, this phenomenon is being played out in the campaigns of Congressman Ron Paul and Governor Mike Huckabee. On the Democratic side of the aisle, it is manifested in Senator Barack Obama's campaign.

Last Saturday Congressman Paul placed second in the Nevada primaries with 14 percent of the vote. Paul, who has raised some $20 million in three months, owes much of his mainstream support on both the Left and the Right to his pointed opposition to the war in Iraq. At the same time, his campaign's quest for mainstream respectability has been stymied repeatedly by the fact that neo-Nazi Web sites have embraced Paul's candidacy.

Paul's showing in Nevada was particularly impressive because a week before the Nevada primaries, James Kirchick of the New Republic published an in-depth investigative report on Paul's ideological background which showed that the neo-Nazis' support for him is not unjustified. Kirchick's report was based on a study of some three decades worth of mass-mailing political reports that have been published under Paul's name.

Kirchick's report, "Angry White Man" showed that between Paul's newsletters - whose articles are generally unsigned - and his public statements, there are strong indications that Paul shares the white supremacists' hatred of blacks, Jews and homosexuals. Moreover, Paul has spoken in warm support for the slave-owning Confederacy and the militia men who believe they must defend themselves against the Federal government and a web of global governance conspirators. He has also praised former Ku Klux Klan Imperial Wizard David Duke.

Before Kirchick's report, Paul outpolled Giuliani threefold in the early primary states. And after the report, he had his best showing to date in Nevada.

LESS SHOCKING, but still depressing is the candidacy of former Arkansas governor Mike Huckabee. Huckabee, a former Baptist preacher is running an almost purely sectoral campaign for the evangelical vote.

Huckabee targets evangelicals by calling for the strengthening of America's Christian identity. Interestingly, in his bid for Christian support, Huckabee has not embraced evangelical advocacy of hawkish foreign policies and defense of Christian communities in the Muslim world. To the contrary, like former president Jimmy Carter, Huckabee advocates an emasculated foreign policy based on being nice to other countries. He likens disputes with foreign countries to family squabbles that can be solved by better communications. Following from this, Huckabee claims that America's problems with Iran are the result of America's lack of diplomatic relations with Iran.

To date, Huckabee won the Iowa caucuses, and has achieved strong second and third places in the other primary states. He lost South Carolina to Senator John McCain by a mere three points. But he doesn't appear to be made to last. His appeal to non-evangelical voters is almost nonexistent and without non-evangelical supporters, he has no chance of winning the Republican nomination.

IN CONTRAST to Paul and Huckabee, Barack Obama has a good chance of securing his party's nomination for president and winning the general election. And this is disturbing because like Paul, he enjoys the support of hateful bigots. And like Paul and Huckabee, he holds foreign policy positions which are based on the notion that the global jihad is not a serious threat.

Although the rumors that Obama - whose father and step-father were Muslims and who was educated in Muslim schools in Indonesia - is a Muslim are demonstrably false, his Christian affiliations are a cause for alarm in and of themselves.

Obama belongs to the Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. Its minister and Obama's spiritual adviser is Rev. Jeremiah Wright Jr.

In an investigative report on Obama published last week by the American Thinker Web site, Ed Lasky documented multiple examples of Wright's anti-Jewish and anti-white animus. Wright has called for divestment from Israel and refers to Israel as a "racist" state. Theologically, he believes that the true "Chosen People" are the blacks. Indeed, he is a black supremacist. He believes that black values are superior to middle class American values and that blacks should isolate themselves from the wider American society.

Wright is a long-time friend of the virulently anti-Semitic head of the Nation of Islam - fellow Chicagoan Louis Farrakhan. The two traveled together to Libya some years ago to pay homage to Muammar Gaddafi. Last year Wright presented Farrakhan with a "Lifetime Achievement" award.

Although last week Obama issued a statement condemning Farrakhan for his anti-Semitism, he did not disavow Wright - who married him and baptized his daughters. Obama has taken no steps to moderate his church's anti-Israel invective.

OBAMA'S affiliation with Wright aligns with his choice of financial backers and foreign policy advisors. To varying degrees, all of them exhibit hostility towards Israel and support for appeasing jihadists.

As Lasky notes, Obama has received generous support from billionaire George Soros. In recent years, Soros has devoted himself to replacing politicians who support fighting the forces of global terror and supporting Israel with politicians who support appeasing jihadists and dumping Israel.

As a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, Obama opposed defining Iran's Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist group. He calls for the US to withdraw from Iraq - only to return if genocide is being carried out and then, only as part of an international force. He also supports opening negotiations with Iran even if the Iranians continue to enrich uranium. In forming these views, he is assisted by his foreign policy team which includes Zbigniew Brzezinski, Mark Brzezinski, Anthony Lake, Susan Rice and Robert Malley.

All of these people are known either for their anti-Israel views or their pro-Arab views - or both. Malley, a Palestinian apologist invented and propagated the false claim that the 2000 Camp David summit between the Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat and then prime minister Ehud Barak failed because Israel wasn't serious about giving the Palestinians a state. This view is disputed by Barak and Clinton.

For her part, as chief foreign policy advisor to Senator John Kerry during the 2004 presidential elections, Susan Rice reportedly convinced Kerry to announce that if elected he would appoint Jimmy Carter and James Baker to serve as his envoys for Middle East peace.

Mark Brzezinski has openly called for unconditional negotiations with Iran. For more than 30 years, Zbigniew Brzezinski has distinguished himself as one of Israel's greatest foes in Washington.

UNFORTUNATELY, in the anti-war frenzy now gripping much of the Democratic Party, one could say that there is nothing notable about the fact that Obama has hired anti-Israel foreign policy advisors, attends an anti-Israel church, and receives financial backing from anti-Israel billionaires. But even in this atmosphere Obama stands out - for not only does he theoretically support appeasement, he is actively advancing the interests of Islamists seeking to take control over a state allied with the US.

Kenya currently teeters at the edge of political chaos and civil war in the wake of the disputed Dec. 27 presidential elections. Those elections pitted incumbent President Mwai Kibaki against Raila Odinga who leads the Orange Democratic Movement. While the polls showed the public favoring Odinga, Kibaki was declared the winner. Odinga rejected the results and his supporters have gone on rampages throughout the country that have killed some 700 people so far. Fifty people were murdered when a pro-Odinga mob set ablaze a church in which they were hiding.

Kibaki is close ally of the US in the war against Islamic terror. In stark contrast, Odinga is an ally of Islamic extremists. On August 29 Odinga wrote a letter to Kenya's pro-jihadist National Muslim Leaders Forum. There he pledged that if elected he would establish Sharia courts throughout the country; enact Islamic dress codes for women; ban alcohol and pork; indoctrinate schoolchildren in the tenets of Islam; ban Christian missionary activities, and dismiss the police commissioner, "Who has allowed himself to be used by heathens and Zionists."

Although Odinga is an Anglican, he referred to Islam as the "one true religion" and scorned Christians as "worshipers of the cross." Obama strongly supports Odinga who claims to be his cousin. As Daniel Johnson reported recently in the New York Sun, during his 2006 visit to Kenya, Obama was so outspoken in his support for Odinga that the Kenyan government complained to the State Department that Obama was interfering with the internal politics of the country. After the Dec. 27 elections Obama interrupted a campaign appearance in New Hampshire to take a call from Odinga.

THE PAST 10 years have not been good ones for the American political landscape. And in times of acrimony and fragmentation, people tend to vote their prejudices. The candidacies of Paul, Huckabee and Obama are testimonies to this fact.

It can only be hoped that in the coming weeks and months ahead of the presidential election, the political center of American politics will reassert itself and that the final race will be between leaders who abjure bigotry and understand that foreign policy is neither about minding your business nor being polite. It is about opposing enemies, supporting allies and knowing the difference between them.

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#1. To: aristeides (#0)

Huckabee targets evangelicals by calling for the strengthening of America's Christian identity. Interestingly, in his bid for Christian support, Huckabee has not embraced evangelical advocacy of hawkish foreign policies and defense of Christian communities in the Muslim world. To the contrary, like former president Jimmy Carter, Huckabee advocates an emasculated foreign policy based on being nice to other countries. He likens disputes with foreign countries to family squabbles that can be solved by better communications. Following from this, Huckabee claims that America's problems with Iran are the result of America's lack of diplomatic relations with Iran.

This actually makes Huckabee seem much more appealing. If he's really an evangelical of the Jimmy Carter variety rather than the Armageddonite loon like Robertson and Falwell, he's somebody we can live with.

But everything else in Glick's article is a distortion and a lie, written to rally the troops in the Anti-Defamation League, so I wouldn't put much stock in what she says about Huckabee either.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-01-23   11:33:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: aristeides (#0)

zio-bump

Join the Ron Paul Revolution
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity

Lod  posted on  2008-01-23   11:33:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: aristeides (#0)

Certainly, one can't discuss the Israeli, I mean Iraq War. Paul must be smeared under all conditions because a Paul presidency mean no more foreign control of our country. Zionists can't have that, so logicially, if you don't want the zionists to control the US, you are a white supremist who hates Jews. Uh, and don't forget blacks...you hate blacks too.

angle  posted on  2008-01-23   11:36:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: angle (#3)

don't forget blacks...you hate blacks too.

Plus Christians, including Evangelicals. You hate them too, at least unless they get on the Armageddonist support-Israel-to-the-hilt bandwagon.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-01-23   11:40:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: aristeides (#0)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-01-23   12:00:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#1)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-01-23   12:01:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: ghostdogtxn (#5)

As Lasky notes, Obama has received generous support from billionaire George Soros. In recent years, Soros has devoted himself to replacing politicians who support fighting the forces of global terror and supporting Israel with politicians who support appeasing jihadists and dumping Israel.

As Glick conspicuously fails to mention, Soros is a Jew.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-01-23   12:02:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: aristeides (#7)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-01-23   12:07:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#1)

But everything else in Glick's article is a distortion and a lie, written to rally the troops in the Anti-Defamation League, so I wouldn't put much stock in what she says about Huckabee either.

A 100% solid summary.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2008-01-23   12:11:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#1)

If he's really an evangelical of the Jimmy Carter variety rather than the Armageddonite loon like Robertson and Falwell, he's somebody we can live with.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! that's a good one.

Speaking at Hagee's ministry in San Antonio, Huckabee continued to charm us all with his characteristic wit and humor, calling Hagee "one of the great Christian leaders of our nation."

hammerdown  posted on  2008-01-23   12:14:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: hammerdown (#10)

Like I said, what Glick writes about Huckabee is just BS to rally her comrades at PNAC, AIPAC, and the ADL. If it WERE true, then Huckabee wouldn't be so bad.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-01-23   12:18:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: aristeides (#0)

In recent years, Soros has devoted himself to replacing politicians who support fighting the forces of global terror and supporting Israel with politicians who support appeasing jihadists and dumping Israel.

Even a stopped clock is correct twice a day.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2008-01-23   12:19:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: ghostdogtxn (#5) (Edited)

And these are the "bright Jewish minds" us Goy are expected to allow to rule us?

She's an idiot.

She's a Zionist knish.

I wouldn't believe her on any score.

Even Obama. I wouldn't expect him to be intervening in the ME, much less Kenya!

If he and his family aren't just about as American as apple pie (or at least fried chicken), then he's a way better actor than Ferd.

Republicans (Democrats for that matter) ....... HAD ENOUGH?

iconoclast  posted on  2008-01-23   12:41:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: iconoclast (#12)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-01-23   12:43:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: aristeides (#7)

As Glick conspicuously fails to mention, Soros is a Jew.

Soros has made himself quite unpopular with some Jews and in more ways than one. Soros has published articles attacking AIPAC and he had pointedly refused to donate money to Jewish charities in the past. Furthermore Soros and his step- father may have been involved in nasty stuff with the Naziis if Debbie Schlussel and David Horowitz ( neocon wacko) are to be believed:

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2007/04/thanks_keith_an.html

Some cut and paste:

...Then, there is the funder of Media Matters, billionaire George Soros. As my friend David Horowitz has painstakingly detailed in his book, "The Shadow Party: How George Soros, Hillary Clinton, and Sixties Radicals Seized Control of the Democratic Party," the Jewish Soros is a fake Holocaust survivor, who-- instead of "surviving" the Holocaust--helped the Nazis perpetrate it.

Horowitz details how Soros bragged on CBS' "60 Minutes" of helping his adopted father round up Jews to send them to their deaths at the camps and confiscate their property. Before that, he enjoyed his job as a "courier" delivering notices to Jews instructing them to pack up food for a two-day retreat, which was really their round-up for the death camps. He found this "exhilarating."

Yes, this war criminal and proud Jewish Nazi is the money bags behind America's new self-anointed "Media Watchdog."...

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   13:01:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: scrapper2 (#15)

Soros at beginning of WW2 was nine years old.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-01-23   13:07:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Cynicom (#16)

Soros at beginning of WW2 was nine years old.

Well I warned you that David Horowitz was a neocon crackpot. ha, ha

Seriously though I have googled "Soros 60 minutes interview" to double-check Horowitz's allegations and this time round he may be correct.

Here's what is purported to be a partial transcript of the 60 minutes interview - evidently Soros claims he was 14 years old at the time - cut and paste the url into your address box:

http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/george-soros-on-helping-the-nazis-during- the-holocaust

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   13:31:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: aristeides (#7)

As Glick conspicuously fails to mention, Soros is a Jew.

80+% of American Jews vote for Democrats.

Sparker  posted on  2008-01-23   13:47:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: scrapper2 (#17)

But the statements he made in this interview to my mind are quite chilling. He forgives himself everything. He says that if he hadn't done it somebody else would have.

All of which would seem to indicate that Mr. Soros has no conscience. A lack of conscience is said to be a common symptom of sociopaths.

Scrap...

I would not trust anything Soros says or does. Slippery as an eel. He did not become a billionaire using ethics.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-01-23   13:50:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Cynicom (#19)

Scrap...

I would not trust anything Soros says or does. Slippery as an eel. He did not become a billionaire using ethics.

But why would Soros say he and his father were Nazii collaborators if they were not? How would that be good for Soros or for his business dealings? The only people who might be impressed by such a ghastly admission would be fellow Nazii mindset travellers.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   14:12:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: scrapper2 (#20)

How would that be good for Soros or for his business dealings?

Two ways to look at it.

He was a child.

Accepting what he says as truthful we cannot attach blame to him personally and what he says REINFORCES what those horrible Nazis did to the Jews..

Personally I would say the eel is lying.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-01-23   14:18:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: Cynicom (#19) (Edited)

Scrap...

I would not trust anything Soros says or does. Slippery as an eel. He did not become a billionaire using ethics.

Soros is a symptom of one of the biggest economic problems the world faces: the fact that most fortunes are made not by investment into actual job-creating enterprises, but by moving money and debts from low risk, low yield to high risk, low yield pools.

So it comes as no surprise that Soros was a partner in crime with the Russian oligarchs, and his been the main force behind all sorts of internationalist causes. When he opposes Bush foreign policy, it's just because he prefers the Clinton-style "humanitarian" interventionism (Somalia, Kosovo) to Bush's chest thumping. No more and no less.

And who can forget that Soros funded the "million mom march" and just about every other gun grabbing organization in America?

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-01-23   14:39:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: Cynicom (#21)

Two ways to look at it.

He was a child.

Accepting what he says as truthful we cannot attach blame to him personally and what he says REINFORCES what those horrible Nazis did to the Jews..

Personally I would say the eel is lying.

You've lost me in your explanation of why Soros would be motivated to say that he and his father collaborated with the Naziis unless it was the truth.

a. at age 14 Soros was not a child so I doubt fellow Jews would forgive him

b. what the Naziis did to the Jews does not need "reinforcement" from Soros making up a weird story that does not reflect particularly well on himself or his family - the Naziis killed millions of Jews. The Naziis also killed millions of Christian Poles and Christian Ukrainians and in lesser numbers the Naziis killed homosexuals and gypsies and communists and priests and people that were judged to be mentally defective.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   16:03:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: scrapper2 (#23)

the Naziis killed millions of Jews.

Ah...millions? How many please. Please include the locations and methods of extermination. Donka fräulein, inquiring minds need to know.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-01-23   16:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Jethro Tull (#24)

Ah...millions? How many please. Please include the locations and methods of extermination. Donka fräulein, inquiring minds need to know.

Sorry but I'm not going to play your Zundel/Makow/Irving game. They should have the right to express whatever theories they want - I think Holocaust denial laws on the books of some so-called free countries are ridiculous. But as much as believe people should have the freedom to say and believe whatever they want, I personally don't believe the various theories of Holocaust deniers. Sorry. However, you are free to believe whatever you want.

Whether it was 6 Million or 7 Million or 4 Million or 5 Million Jews killed - the exact numbers are of no concern to me. But I have no doubt that there were millions of Jews and millions of Christians murdered by the Naziis.

Indeed, the Naziis were so compulsive about record keeping, their murderous efforts have been retained for posterity and in fact will be soon released for broader historical research.

www.icrc.org/web/eng/site...ml/arolsen-article-150507

"Towards the opening of the International Tracing Service archives in Arolsen"

Here are some current sources of information for you to peruse since you asked me to provide you with such sources.

a. re: the Jews killed by the Naziis:

www.holocaust- history.org/questions/numbers.shtml

and

www.holocaust- history.org/~rjg/deaths.shtml

b. re: the Christians killed by the Naziis:

holocaustforgotten.com/

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   17:31:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: scrapper2 (#25)

But I have no doubt that there were millions of Jews

So, neither I nor you know the number killed but you have "no doubt" it was in the millions and I'm a holocaust denier for merely asking a reasonable question. Thanks for the laugh.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-01-23   18:32:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Jethro Tull (#26)

So, neither I nor you know the number killed but you have "no doubt" it was in the millions and I'm a holocaust denier for merely asking a reasonable question. Thanks for the laugh

I didn't call you a Holocaust denier.

The Naziis kept meticulous records of their murderous efforts. Why would the Naziis lie?

As for the exact number of Jews killed, how different is the estimate of millions different from estimating the number of Ukrainians killed by the Communists in the Holomodor or the number of Chinese killed by the Japanese etc? If anything due to the records kept by the Naziis the numbers of Jews and Christians snuffed in WWII are more accurate than figures regarding other genocides.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   19:15:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: scrapper2 (#27)

The Naziis kept meticulous records of their murderous efforts. Why would the Naziis lie?

Well, Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich were well known to be most interested in the murder of as many Jews as possible. So their subordinates would have had an incentive to exaggerate the numbers of those they had killed.

The fact that people with the power of Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich were so interesting in killing Jews cuts in the other direction, however.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-01-23   19:20:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: scrapper2 (#27)

I didn't call you a Holocaust denier.

Yet the first thing to tumble out of your mouth is "Sorry but I'm not going to play *your* Zundel/Makow/Irving game", thereby connecting my question to their research. Why would you discard their work, yet accept that which is condoned by the ADL, a totally despicable organization? I see you still have no answer on the number, manner or location of this historical event.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-01-23   19:35:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: aristeides (#28)

Well, Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich were well known to be most interested in the murder of as many Jews as possible. So their subordinates would have had an incentive to exaggerate the numbers of those they had killed.

The fact that people with the power of Hitler, Himmler, and Heydrich were so interesting in killing Jews cuts in the other direction, however.

With regards to Nazi underlings trying to impress their bosses with pumped up figures, I find it hard to believe that there was systematic lying to the tune of "15 miles of files housed at Bad Arolsen, with 50 million documents regarding more than 17 Million people who were executed, forced to labor for the Nazi war machine or otherwise brutalized during the Holocaust." ( paraphrasing info at a NYT article) Consider that out of 17 Million Nazii victims, 11 Million were non-Jews, secondary targets of the Nazii bosses. Why would the Nazii underlings pump up figures about 11 Million non-Jews?

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   19:43:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Jethro Tull (#29) (Edited)

I did not call you a Holocaust denier, isn't that a fact?

I gave you sources for figures of Jews and Non-Jews victimized by the Naziis. You asked for sources and I gave them to you. If you don't believe the information, it is your choice.

According to recent release of archival material housed in the town of Bad Arolsen, it would appear that over 17 Million people, 11 Million Non-Jews, were victims of the Naziis. These archives are not ADL propaganda. Furthermore, the ADL could care less about the Millions of Non-Jews victimized by the Naziis and especially since those numbers are almost 2X that of Jewish victims, as what appears to be the case per archival records stored at Bad Arolsen.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   19:49:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: scrapper2, Jethro Tull (#31)

You called me a hillbilly, scrapper. Isn't that really the same thing?

"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2008-01-23   20:03:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Jethro Tull (#29)

"Sorry but I'm not going to play *your* Zundel/Makow/Irving game"

I'm picturing a giant trailer park Somewhere In The Negev Desert.

"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2008-01-23   20:05:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: scrapper2 (#31)

I did not call you a Holocaust denier, isn't that a fact?

You placed me into their "game", and that is denial.

And about your sources, why would I trust the ones you offer if you ignore documentation from historians with a differing POV?

Finally, you point to meticulous Nazi record keeping as a source of extermination documentation. Given their efficiency, why would they choose such a labor & time intensive method of extermination? Can you picture millions and millions of Jews being loaded into tiny ‘showers’, gasses to death, then having to be dragged out, one by one, to be carted off to some mass grave? I can think of a dozen more efficient ways to kill people, but such questions are verboten to those lacking intellectual curiosity.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-01-23   20:43:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Dakmar (#33)

Go ahead and laugh at my doublewide, but from what I hear you'll be tossed out of your McMansion at the next mortgage reset.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-01-23   20:45:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Jethro Tull (#35)

Go ahead and laugh at my doublewide, but from what I hear you'll be tossed out of your McMansion at the next mortgage reset.

Shitskies, it was only last year I got the garage door painted the way I like it.

"Most of the trouble in this world has been caused by folks who can't mind their own business, because they have no business of their own to mind, any more than a smallpox virus has." - William S Burroughs

Dakmar  posted on  2008-01-23   20:47:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Jethro Tull (#34)

a. You placed me into their "game", and that is denial.

b. And about your sources, why would I trust the ones you offer if you ignore documentation from historians with a differing POV?

c. Finally, you point to meticulous Nazi record keeping as a source of extermination documentation. Given their efficiency, why would they choose such a labor & time intensive method of extermination? Can you picture millions and millions of Jews being loaded into tiny ‘showers’, gasses to death, then having to be dragged out, one by one, to be carted off to some mass grave? I can think of a dozen more efficient ways to kill people, but such questions are verboten to those lacking intellectual curiosity.

a. Whatever.

b. Now that the Nazi archival records at Bad Arosen have been released, it appears that over 17 Million people were snuffed by the Nazis.

c. I have no idea how many were killed by gas chambers or by guns or how many died of disease and starvation in the slave camps. Off hand I'd tend to agree with you that the majority of the 17 Million victims were murdered in slave camps through horrible conditions there and gas chambers were used when these slave laborers had outlived their usefulness and their corpses burned to ashes. However when the war turned bad for Hitler, I could see him implementing extreme measures to kill as many Jews and Christian Slavs ( whom he loathed as well) in captivity as he could.

But I guess we'll find out more as the 15 miles of documents at Bad Arosen are analysed in detail.

www.cbs news.com/stories/2...5/world/main2807620.shtml

d. As I said I have no problem with people questioning the details of the Holocaust. Indeed, I think it is shameful that some Western nations who call themselves free and open societies have made Holocaust denial ( or questioning, if you will) a criminal offense. However people like Irving/Makow/Zundel don't strike me as being credible people and consequently their theories don't hold water for me either. But that's my personal opinion.

e. Stalin was a far greater murderer than Hitler and that too is fact. I think it is disgusting that FDR allied himself with that genocidal monster.

scrapper2  posted on  2008-01-23   21:36:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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