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Religion
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Title: It May be Time to Walk out of Church
Source: We Hold These Truths
URL Source: http://www.whtt.org/index_temp.php?news=2&id=147
Published: Jun 14, 2005
Author: Charles E. Carlson
Post Date: 2005-06-23 21:35:54 by christine
Keywords: Church, Time, Walk
Views: 222
Comments: 18

Why Pharisee Watch? Jesus addressed the Pharisees of his day; the job of Christ-followers is to address the Pharisees of our day.

A friend recently wrote to us saying he likes what we say but:

“can you consider changing the name to something a little less

automatically offensive to Jewish people, a little less terminally (if

unintentionally) anti-Semitic, than "Pharisee Watch"? The insensitivity of this name boggles the mind.”

The writer expresses himself plainly, so he should appreciate Jesus’ words. We chose “Pharisee Watch” as the title for our Internet journal about three years ago, not in order to place blame on the ancient Jews, but to place it squarely on the “Christians” of our day. Our church leaders are the Pharisees. Of course there are exceptions; we leave it to you to find them, and we want to hear about them when you do.

Pharisee Watch is about those who say they are Christians. If the shoe fits Jews, let them wear it. It is intended to be strong, in response to the real ill in our society. We have written about 150 Pharisee Watch’s, and any fair reader will have to admit we blame the Judaized-Christianity leaders of present day evangelical churches for their anti-life public policies, whether Democrat or Republican.

We could name and blame many celebrity icons who are trampling Christianity into the gutter of racism. One amazing case will be mentioned later, but we prefer to talk about your pastor. : He is the real problem and the only one you can change.

Having said this, we would be remiss not to note that no one has reason to enjoy the demise of Christianity more than the Rabbis, since Judaism by definition denies Christ.

Our language cannot be too plain when dealing with the enormity of what we are trying to get across. When we call your church leaders “Pharisees” we are not talking about someone else’s church. We are talking about yours, and we are asking you to do an organized, tactical withdrawal from your church, unless yours is an exception. Tactical withdrawal mean, first, confront the pastor privately; then, write a good-by letter to everyone you know in your church stating why you must leave; and then walk out to stay. This is the only way change can happen.

A word to the not-evangelicals

Mainline and Catholic churches are not normally evangelical, or “dispensational” as the popular self described term introduced by Cyrus I Scofield calls them, but if Mainliners and Catholics fail to speak out, they are no better than evangelicals who openly support war. By their silence, they affirm, and they open their members to being brainwashed in “home bible studies” conducted by mass marketing dispensational organizations such as Precept Ministries, to name only one, where “Dispensationalism” is sold as the only way to salvation.

Jesus set the standard for challenging religious leaders.

In talking to Pharisees, Jesus said (paraphrased):

“How terrible it is for you teachers of the law, Pharisees, you hypocrites! You lock the door of the kingdom of heaven in other people’s faces, but you yourself do not go in nor do you allow in those who are trying to get in.”

Jesus told the Pharisees they were unfit for the kingdom of heaven. These are firm words found in Matthew 23:13. The entire chapter is startlingly direct. In Jesus’ time the Judeans were predominantly Israelite-ish in at least the pretext of their religion, but it appears they were confused and apostate in their practice of it. Those who were honest knew they could not follow all the 600 odd laws found in the 28the chapter of Deuteronomy, and they also knew the Pharisees and others had corrupted what was supposed to be the faith of Abraham into a hopeless man-controlled religion. The source of their corruption was the ruling faction Jesus referred to as Pharisees and condemned to hell in Matthew 24.

By contrast there are now hundreds, perhaps thousands of Pharisees in churches for every one in the synagogue. Our political leadership today depends on Judaized Christians (the so-called Christian Right) for their rock hard political support. Pharisaic-Christianity is every bit as political as Judean Pharisaism was. The Pharisees were in bed with the Romans. The evangelicals are in bed with the Israelis and with every politician who is more patriotic to Israel than to their own USA...

We Americans claim to be 80% Christian, perhaps 1/3 of these are “evangelicals.” Politicians and parties depend on the votes of that 1/3 because they tend to vote in a block, other Christians tend to split. This in no way diminishes the power of AIPAC and other Jewish groups who exercise their clout in our government. We Hold These Truths published a scholarly book named One Nation Under Israel on this subject. But it is the evangelicals who have the numbers and the media access to prop up the faltering war agenda based on what they believe to be scriptural grounds.

The Pharisees of our day repeat the error of the 1st century Pharisees, who Jesus said, “shut themselves and those who follow them from Christ’s the Kingdom of Heaven.” It is hard to imagine why Jesus would not hold us to as high a standard when it comes to the shedding of innocent blood, for the Pharisees shed His blood only hour after He challenged them.

Why Judaized Christian Pharisees support serial wars

Judaized support for serial wars hinges upon the 100- year old altered scripture found in study bibles and scores of related popular novels, which place the focus on Israel instead of Christ

The modern State of Israel borrowed its name from an ancient story of the lineage of Abraham, called Israelites. They were not called “Israelis.” The political State of Israel came into existence 40 years after the first Scofield Reference Bible heralded its coming. Either Mr. Scofield was a prophet, or someone who knew about Zionist plans helped him write his pseudo-bible. The Zionist state of Israel and evangelical Christianity are a strange pair of Siamese twins, inseminated at the same time, but born after different gestation periods. Neither came about as a result of Immaculate Conception.

Israel existed very much in the plans of the World Zionist movement in 1908 when a Zionist-friendly Oxford University Press published the Scofield’s book. In its footnotes it legitimized a Jewish “return” to Palestine and the tale of God’s unfulfilled promises to give the land of the ancient Canaanites to the ancient Israelites. Scofield helped an absent-minded god remember his long-forgotten promise, (they claimed) not to the ancient Israelites and their descendants, but to the European immigrants to Israel.

Oxford University Press gave evangelicalism its first big promotional boost. It did it by loading the evangelical’s seminaries with Scofield Bibles. When the State of Israel was finally born in 1948, Oxford rewrote the book to welcome the return of the European “Israelites” to Palestine, proclaiming it to be the fulfillment of Old Testament Prophesy.

Political Zionism--a movement to establish political rights to land for a Jewish state--was legitimatized by respected European, Theodore Herzl. His 1895 books, Der judenstaat, promoted a plan to raise money to buy out the land from the residents of Palestine, and he promised that no one would ever be cheated or displaced. But more aggressive Zionists, beginning with Chaim Weisman, took over the movement, and Herzl died unhappy, ended up in the trash bin of world Zionism, later to have a mountain named for him in Israel.

Today, the strongest support for the most ruthless wing of the Zionist movement comes from “Christians” who preach it in thousands of churches. These support endless wars in the Mideast, wars that Israel lets them know to be beneficial to its interest, for example, the destruction of Iraq. Evangelicalism is now a giant cross-denominational sect that Pharisee Watch has named Judaized-Christianity. It has been politicized into the largest and most unified voting block in America, centering not on Christian morality but on the political wants of the most radically racist and bloodthirsty factions in the State of Israel.

One such international Pharisee in the news is Kay Arthur, the founder and leader of Precept Ministries. Its dispensational, Israel first teaching are claimed to reach into 120 countries and the majority of American churches, including Mainline and Catholics. At a Jerusalem interview in early June, she told of plans to lobby the Israeli Knesset against Israel giving any concessions to Palestinians. She is one of those who seems to believe the Palestinians must go, on foot or in body bags. She told Haaretz; "God has chosen Israel above all the nations of the earth, and because I love God, I have to follow God's heart and be dedicated to the land and the people of Israel." Arthur reaffirmed her previous statement:

"if I had to choose between America and Israel, I would choose Israel."

Kay Arthur’s Israeli Patriotism is her own business, but the blood on her hands is staining those who follow her, and her political lobbying for war costs lives and lot of dollars everywhere. It is our business. She operates tax free.

Evangelicals are taught that the Old Testament is fulfilled in the creation of the political state of Israel. This is blasphemy. In contrast, for two thousand years followers of Christ have always believed that only He is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. Why? Because Jesus said so.

In the book of Matthew, Jesus called the Judean Pharisees “a generation of vipers.” But he also left the door open to any individual among them who had the courage to leave Pharisaism and follow him. Among those who did were the Apostle Paul and several others who are named. Among those who failed the test were a high priest and the rich young man found in the parable of the camel and the needle. Jesus never rejected any individual who was willing to follow him, but many rejected him. He condemned the Pharisees to hell because they rejected him.

“You snakes and children of snakes, how do you expect to escape from the condemnation of hell?” Matthew 23:33

Pharisees are, by Jesus definition, the leaders of most (but not all) evangelical churches. Their mission is every bit as deadly and bloody as those Jesus challenged almost 2000 years ago. These leaders can change.

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#1. To: christine (#0)

Admit it, you posted this just to provoke Don, huh?

:)

The Mencken Society

Dude Lebowski  posted on  2005-06-23   21:44:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: christine (#0)

Those who confound the teachings of Christ with Zionism and modern-day Israel are spiritual cripples who will never arrive at something higher than a natural state.

Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.

Zoroaster  posted on  2005-06-23   22:07:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: Dude Lebowski, Zipporah (#1)

I posted it for the edification of a number of folks here. ;)

christine  posted on  2005-06-23   22:12:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: christine (#3)

I just had dinner. Sushi, with a nice dessert of chocolate cake. I've given up worrying about religion. I think people should do the same and focus on the real problems, such as the pervasive evil in our government.

So many morons, so few bullets.

TommyTheMadArtist  posted on  2005-06-23   22:57:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: christine, robin, zipporah (#0)

Kay Arthur’s Israeli Patriotism is her own business, but the blood on her hands is staining those who follow her, and her political lobbying for war costs lives and lot of dollars everywhere. It is our business. She operates tax free.

We subsidize the Anti-Christ with our monies while they ride free.
This is an important article.

The strength of the vampire is that no one believes in him.

1776  posted on  2005-06-30   9:22:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: TommyTheMadArtist, Bayonne (#4)

pervasive evil in our government

Which, thanks to a well orchestrated propaganda campaign, tenet seems to have worked its way into some well established American religious circles.

Praise the Lord!! And now let us go forth and bomb some Arabs. And, pass the hat for Israel once again. Amen. Halleujah.

If you love America, you'll hate Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-30   9:27:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: 1776 (#5)

The Pharisees were in bed with the Romans. The evangelicals are in bed with the Israelis and with every politician who is more patriotic to Israel than to their own USA...

I object to all evangelicals being thrown into the same basket, but undoubtedly the Zionists are making the most of every opportunity.

"Anyone who has proclaimed violence his method inexorably must choose lying as his principle." - Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

robin  posted on  2005-06-30   9:29:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: robin, 1776, Bayonne (#7)

Zionists latch onto and infect any political ideology/religion possible to further thier goals.

Communism (which, IMHO, was and is a mere Zionist front); the American liberal establishment for the last 40 years; converting a large segmant of American Christians into Israel worshippers; and, of late, American "conservatives" (the latter being the primary aim, purpose and focus of Faux News).

If you have time, go back now and carefully read the Procotcols of Zion. I did last night. Amazing.

If you love America, you'll hate Israel.

wbales  posted on  2005-06-30   9:35:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: 1776 (#5)

This is an important article.

I agree--important for folks to understand how and when our churches and pastors got compromised and/or mislead.

"I have sworn on the altar of Almighty God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man". - Thomas Jefferson

christine  posted on  2005-06-30   9:40:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: christine (#0)

I liked this this quote. I have been looking at judaisn closely and after 4000 years of judaism serving as such a perfect collectivist ideology that is has not been altered in any way because it is so near perfect. It has allowed Jews to outlast everyone, by using the revolutionary collectvist ideology that they actually made up from scratch. Either that or one believes that the jews really get the ideology.

After i looked at Judaism, I was impressed. Are you aware of exactly what judaism is, its history in the 20th century, its role as the ultimate collectivist ideology upon which communism, total, and socialisism variants are solely based. An understanding of its nature? Are you aware that there is is an activist effort and group effort by all Jews and jas been for years to keep the actual meaning of collectivism and judaism hidden fro Americans? And that Marxism is dangerous in that in that it is completely foreign to the westerm mind, so foreign that it is UNDETECTABLE even when wife;y implemented to attack the majority because it is illogical on its face to those like us?

I'm not tryying to be a wiseass. I studied it in detail lately and completely see it working in the US for the 1st time in my kife. I never knew it existed because as I said, iy is so foreign to out minds that it is undetectable... and jews place a high priority in maintaining the conceptions we still hold onto from our early christian conditioning It blew my mind when I relized that jews are well aware that almost every one one of us, even later in life, were so brainwashed when kids about judaism yhay most of us incredibly never took a hard look as adults it ran so deep. Jews see all of us christians with absurd childlike ideas about judaism. Whats funny is it suits them fine. When was the last time you saw a jew telling a christian that he is wong about the jewish ideology and telling him the truth???

Answer... never! Its one of the uspoken understandings jews have.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-06-30   10:25:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Bayonne (#10)

I wasn't aware of the degree of deception, but am becoming so because of posts like yours.

"I have sworn on the altar of Almighty God, eternal hostility to every form of tyranny over the mind of man". - Thomas Jefferson

christine  posted on  2005-06-30   10:29:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: christine (#0)

The typical American christian is a kool-aid drinker to the max. I say that as a fellow who considers himself an American christian and frequently quotes bible here on this board. the American christians have been deceived more so than your average american heathen who drinks heavily, uses drugs & gets involved in sexual immorality. The American christian leader who stands in front of his people and preaches to them to support the war and vote republican and put Israel on a pedestal is a huge fool, deceived by the evil ones. It is time to walk out of these churches.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-06-30   10:35:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Bayonne (#10)

When was the last time you saw a jew telling a christian that he is wong about the jewish ideology and telling him the truth???

Here's atleast one to go on the record. The Harold Wallace Rosenthal Interview 1976

Mundus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur.

Eoghan  posted on  2005-06-30   10:46:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: christine (#3)

hey, I for 1 appreciate this post.

believe it or not, I just made the decision yesterday to stop attending the little house-church I have been attending since it started 8 years ago. There's only 10-15 people who attend, sometimes only 5. So, when I leave it is a big deal.

Our pastor last year just before the election spoke from his pulpit in his house that someone built for him that we should all vote republican. I listened politely. This was first time he did that in 8 years. Then 6 days later he had a stroke and has not stood since then. Now he speaks from wheelchair. The day after his stroke his pastor-buddy was in town from Brazil where he has 25 churches and he spoke from that same pulpit about how we should vote republican. and 6 days later that fellow was back in brazil and fell down a very steep flight of stairs and was laid up for 6 months, had to have hip replacement.

I'm leaving. Let the pharisees drink their kool-aid.

Red Jones  posted on  2005-06-30   10:52:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: wbales (#6)

Praise the Lord!! And now let us go forth and bomb some Arabs

I was thinking about arabs earlier. Starting with Bush and the cowardly advantage that the US uses in place of fiighting it out mano a mano with the fierce iraqi nationalists, who although they have litt;e to gain since every scenario is a disaster for them. How we kill tens of of thousands of ingerently innocent women and children, while having the gall to call these weapons precisision and just. Using high tech to kill men...is not a sign of progress. Its a sign of barbarism.

It is the technique of the Jews, the only natural evemy of the Muslims, that are now our enemy for that reason alone. I was thinking about how bush, using a reasonable measure of whther a war is just- The Just War Theory the great Catholic thinker came up with, that could have been used if bush was a just man with good intentions. When looking at at just war, Bush failed the test Re: Iraq miserably.

i thought about his response to mild criticism after the WH had to deal with a report officially revealing that every justfication for war turned out to be, under the slightest scrutiny crude deceptions designed to get the 'mission accomplished'. Bush's response to their being no just war was 'I don't give a shit, I would have done it anyway

Bottom line, all evidence is in, in a war that was unjust on its face and that surreal runup to war with the entire PNAC war room in the top 3 pos in DoD, acting as what I have been able to prove was a conspiracy that meets all the criteria of a coomie style rev the neocons promised to pull off. Seizing control of govt, done only to benefit jews- the idea of americans lives sacrificed as irrelevant because redneck goys subhuman any way, commies who said they would do it executed a plan that they had the balls to post online, they all quit their jobs and left iraq in chaos with middle fingers in the air...

Overall, looking at that whole scenario and studying those neocon bastards and collevyivism gave me new insights into how the jews perate in the US. Wbales, my conclusions were all based on facts, studying how jews use collectivism to seize control of the majority in the 20th century- the nature of judaism is their weak spot, I am recommending every go and resaerch everthything about judaism and how we have neen conditioned to believe it is benign. Fact is it is so opposed to western ideals that unless one studies hard and abandons all western beliefs and learns to function like I do now- as a jew... Check this out... the judaism ideolgy is so alien amd opposed to everything we value, we are literally incapable of recognizing it, even as we realize jews are attackung as a group remains hidden because to see that philolophy without studying the akien nature would require an individual to think illogically to perceieve it which is rationally impossisible. How wild is that?

. Post to me prvately if you want to continue this privacy.

And Bush's response to this news, that meant, if you really thought about it, without even proving Bush was in coluusion with Israeli interests and the war was planned to be done without evidence all along, because there is no way the intelligence, prepared by 9 US intel agencies with endless resourves, all the info from mossad... could have provided reports of iraq definitively having WMD, because since we know Iraq had no weapons and to boot, no effort on any level including the lunch truck operator that worked at the the lab.. it violates logical principles to make an absurd statement that the best analysts the Us had acyually made an argument that weapons existed, Since we now now that weapons and progroms did not exist it is not logically possible that EVEN 1 report existed about WMD. It is illogical that the complete absence of weapons could be analyzed and the results be anything else but the absence of weapons, Something that does not exist cannot be analyzed and presented as something that exists, not even by a Perle or the Mossad itself.

I'm having some fun with this. This is just a typical deception that Bush uses regularly.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-06-30   11:38:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: wbales (#8)

Zionists latch onto and infect any political ideology/religion possible to further thier goals.

Communism (which, IMHO, was and is a mere Zionist front); the American liberal establishment for the last 40 years; converting a large segmant of American Christians into Israel worshippers; and, of late, American "conservatives" (the latter being the primary aim, purpose and focus of Faux News).

If you have time, go back now and carefully read the Procotcols of Zion. I did last night. Amazing.

I have larned the zionist label has no mening and confuses issues, Isreael was established years ago Zionist movemement over. And jews use the idea of zionists to portay old fasioned hard core judaism ideologues who use collecticism in host ations like the neocons. I recommend to you on another thread... drop what ever you are doing and syudy the enemy Study judaism. To see how we have all been conditioned so we don't understand it. You will be shocked to learn what judaism is and see why Jews in the US since the bolsheevik revotution have been pushing for judaism in the US, called communism. jews invented the entire concept of Supremacism. I learned that, ironically, whites can pose as being neonazi wannabes- a few nuts here and there, but they are just calling themseles suprumemacists with anny actual ideology required a real supremecacis. So despite the labels anu whites- like all 2 in in last decade... are known by Jews, the inventors and masters of ideology itself to be of no threat. g The idea of of whites being natural aggresors not because of an actual threat, but the charicterization of them as white europens. This is judaism. Groups are given threat risks. In alarge part, the whites are chosen for various reasons, 1 being an ana;ogy to whites in nazi germany. are so predictable, that I learned Jews demonize whites in every euro nation, They are so collectivivist, that advancing Jewish power whi;e attacking the white mahority necome the one two punc they ise in the US.

When they advance the power of jews as a group. No non jews have any rights and justice does nit exist outside of the collective. There is no idea of freedom for non jew. They don't have any feelings of we call a conscience in the west, because a conscience implies concern for principles, which Jews would see as weakness. The wjole system is about pure power. As it was was 2000 years ago its is today, a warlike ideololoby, here the only crimes are jew against jew, goy against jew, and behavior that does not prnote advancing jewisj power and using the collecivist system they impose on every goy western nation ASAP.

Utderestimating their ability a manipulate the collective in complex ways, and leverahe group power and coalititions for a little to long us dangerous- their very serious goal of nothing short of seizing power so that the majority loses its rightful position to decide its own future. At this point, which as happened over and over in diffrent forms in white nations, using the exact same stratehy used for 2000 years, is certanly a worst case scenario aprroaching revoultion levels. At the very least, these goals are always being pursued on many fronts, Now that I can recognize these things and the presence of am ideology opposed to everything we value of what was eonce tradtional America when the founding principles ruled and protevted us from The maniacal jews and marxism

The problem is our sistem has undergone another type of revolution, All of the rights we used to enjoy and deluded bots and other americans assume are guaranteed foreber have been eroded through corruption in DC. How many people do you think understand in 2005, in a nation where fags and metros are portrayed as the new am man, old adages about americans kicking as on antyone that fucked with our way of life. I new it it was part of the cold war, but still, there was an an expectation that things in america were valuable, and there was was always someobeone bound to take what is yours, if if it is that valuable and you don't have the balls to defend what is yours. I'm talkimg like men thinking kije men used to think. Look at those iraqi nationalists, fight man to man... those mt friend are men.

Real men like theirs fight for causes, not neocon causes, but causes in whick men defend the american system. To point out how dire things are, think of what the necons have have done to us openly, as promised, and then walking away with a bad attitude, necause maybe they loathe us like the irraqis surely must, The meocons accomplisj what are mini revs by using powerful small grouops in key locations and using judaism as the real force to drive it all home.

The ADL is allowed to run indoctrmation camps to condition of every single FBI agent amd every simgle ATF agent ang od knows who else. Isnt that great, the masters of coruuption, the ADL, given a whole day- and those scumbags use the time to incocrinate the cops and use psch control to gain support of everone isuued a gun. freat. The best part of the program is the hococaust as religion segment, Yhis is the closer. They are told about the syoey and encouraged to breakfowm, if necessary, then told about yjeor life long redp to never, and most importamntly, to always do what is good for jews.. They are then told to write their own own essay, which is graded. So ten years from now I'll be criticizing israel and they can call on these agents- when the police Why else would they be given access to everyone with a ?gun.? were duping their boys into being killed, what would they do? They would do what real men do. Execute the men on the spot and tell everone esle coming to iraq, there there number will come up next.

This is not too far from the truth of what nationalist fighters would do to traitors, Menwhile, I am fantasyzing about this, and pathethically ir is the most andger I have felt in a while. This is typical in collectivism, The rights of the indiv are taken away, there is no guarantee of all nen are equal because we are coll, now, and while you have not noticed because it wasnt exactly made public and you wereny aware of the collectivism assuault, many groups and corps and orgs openly known to exercise group power that all the dc pols and beaurs showwer on them in a collectivist system, the jews are running the show.

Learn about how is a part of judaism and laugh your ass off the next time the ADL calls criticisism of jews a gate crime or makes of tales about only whites being prone to supremecism. Once you understand their very nature and become ablr to thinkkike them, you see a flaw they have. Judaism has been used with the supremecism for thousands of years- their behavior is rigidly disciplined and is so much part of their nature that they have problems altering plans on the fly, provising predictability- which then allows someone like me to continue studying them. Since jews invenred spuprecemacisism and it is a part of their collective get a load of thus this- this makes them, because of the above, not only UNABLE to not experience supremisism, but makes them in the only real supremecists that exist. Others may mimic it, but cannoy be it. How about that.

Bayonne  posted on  2005-06-30   14:01:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: Bayonne (#16)

the zionist label has no mening and confuses issues

True enough. I would suggest that those of European Christian heritage cannot even begin to comprehend what it is that is being dealt with here.

We have the freedom to speak, but not the freedom to speak freely.

1776  posted on  2005-06-30   14:28:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Eoghan (#13)

[:Comment Pulled: ]

Bayonne  posted on  2005-06-30   15:33:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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