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Title: I have to say, I am very surprised at the number of 4um posters who are considering voting for Obama or any of the Establishment picks....
Source: [None]
URL Source: [None]
Published: Feb 13, 2008
Author: Christine
Post Date: 2008-02-13 19:56:40 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 8286
Comments: 359

By voting for any one of them, you support and lend legitimacy to the fraud. Isn't it time we say no and no more?

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Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 251.

#44. To: christine (#0)

christine....I think it's not so much a sell-out as the age old dilemma of voting one's conscience vs voting AGAINST rather than for. I like ron paul, mostly for his anti-war views, but as I have stated here many times, I'm a bleeding heart liberal and my candidate was dennis kucinich. that presented a struggle for me - vote for him, knowing he couldn't win, or vote against someone else. just about the time I decided to vote my conscience he dropped out. so much for my conscience.

I want someone to get us out of this stupid and morally wrong war, and all the evil trappings, like torture and the gutting of our rights, that accompany it. I think I am in agreement with most, if not all, here about that. where we digress is that I believe more in social programs than I think many here do. I do a lot of volunteer work and I just can't deny the need. I wish programs to help the poor weren't necessary, but I believe strongly that they are. I hate paying taxes but if I didn't, I would probably pay as much or more to help the needy. do I think government is the best entity to do this? not really, but it's probably the only one with the clout to make it happen. do I think it's efficient? no. I just don't see the alternative.

anyway, I enjoy posting and reading here. I generally run in ultra-liberal circles in *real life* and I love seeing other viewpoints and opening my mind to other opinions, and finding common ground, which I often do.

my original point (I really did have one!) is that if obama is the candidate against mccain, a vote for obama could be a vote *against* 100 years in iraq and a new war in iran. a vote for a third party candidate (I personally like cynthia mckinney) could be a vote that helps mccain, and promotes war. I'm not advocating for obama here. I think he's an awesome speaker but I haven't seen much substance beyond that. he's not my candidate. but he's likely to get my vote if it's against mccain, who I really don't much care for. so that was my point. saying no and no more could feel personally good, but cause unwanted repercussions. sometimes you have to vote AGAINST, not for.

I read recently somewhere (here maybe?) that this whole national election circus is designed to distract people from the elections that really will impact their lives, local elections. those are probably what we all should focus on while the dog and pony show plays out. my 2 cents :)

kiki  posted on  2008-02-13   22:03:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

if obama is the candidate against mccain, a vote for obama could be a vote *against* 100 years in iraq and a new war in iran. a vote for a third party candidate (I personally like cynthia mckinney) could be a vote that helps mccain, and promotes war.

and that's it in a nutshell

robin  posted on  2008-02-13   22:14:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

if obama is the candidate against mccain, a vote for obama could be a vote *against* 100 years in iraq and a new war in iran. a vote for a third party candidate (I personally like cynthia mckinney) could be a vote that helps mccain, and promotes war.

While I'm thinking of it, I have some ocean front property in New Mexico I'm looking to unload...

FOH  posted on  2008-02-13   22:23:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I think kiki expressed the dilemma very well.

Do you prefer a McCain presidency then? Would it be good for your real-estate endeavors?

robin  posted on  2008-02-13   22:27:39 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Do you prefer a McCain presidency then? Would it be good for your real-estate endeavors?

Any one of the 3 will give you the exact same thing.

Hussein Obama will be given the reason for war and he'll do his lord's will.

They're all going to give you Amnesty and the North American Union.

Why support ANY of them? Just to be cool? I don't get it. There is no 'lesser evil' at this point.

They're all pure wickedness. Why don't you people see this (I might not want to know the answer, it's occurred to me)?

FOH  posted on  2008-02-13   22:30:15 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Why support ANY of them? Just to be cool? I don't get it. There is no 'lesser evil' at this point.

I do see a lesser evil. I could be wrong, but from what I've researched and read I believe he would cause the least amount of harm.

robin  posted on  2008-02-13   22:32:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I do see a lesser evil. I could be wrong, but from what I've researched and read I believe he would cause the least amount of harm.

You're wrong.

FOH  posted on  2008-02-13   22:34:58 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I do see a lesser evil. I could be wrong, but from what I've researched and read I believe he would cause the least amount of harm.

You're wrong.

We're all waiting with bated breath for your explanation of why you prefer Hitlery or the the very unlikely eight more years of Bush/McCain?

iconoclast  posted on  2008-02-14   10:36:19 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

We're all waiting with bated breath for your explanation of why you prefer Hitlery or the the very unlikely eight more years of Bush/McCain?

We're all waiting why you think Obamaslama is any different from those you mentioned?

We're all waiting why you'd ever vote for him, as opposed to a good man running third party, or even a Ron Paul write in?

We're all waiting to see how you justify that morally?

IndieTX  posted on  2008-02-14   10:39:51 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

I don’t oppose all wars. And I know that in this crowd today, there is no shortage of patriots, or of patriotism. What I am opposed to is a dumb war. What I am opposed to is a rash war. What I am opposed to is the cynical attempt by Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz and other arm-chair, weekend warriors in this Administration to shove their own ideological agendas down our throats, irrespective of the costs in lives lost and in hardships borne.

Obama and his foreign policy adviser Brzezinski have been against the Iraq war since before its inception. McCain has Kissinger.

Obama attacked Wolfowitz and Perle by name in 2002. I did not see Hillary or Insane McCain do that.

en.wikisource.org/wiki/Barack_Obama's_Iraq_Speech

Brzezinski and Obama
Barack Obama has been criticized by pro-Israel forces (undoubtedly egged on by the Hillary team) for naming Zbignew Brzezinski, Jimmy Carter's National Security advisor, as one of his foreign policy gurus. Ezra Klein links to, and endorses, a post by one Matthew Duss, relying on a story from the Politico website, suggesting that the "Israel lobby," writ large, and Alan Dershowitz personally, are upset about Brzezinski because he wrote an essay last Summer defending Mearsheimer and Walt’s “Israel Lobby” essay.

robin  posted on  2008-02-14   10:43:00 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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