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Title: Forget global warming: Welcome to the new Ice Age
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URL Source: http://www.nationalpost.com/opinion/columnists/story.html?id=332289
Published: Feb 25, 2008
Author: Lorne Gunter
Post Date: 2008-02-25 17:02:23 by angle
Keywords: None
Views: 674
Comments: 59
Posted by angle at the request of Cynicom: Snow cover over North America and much of Siberia, Mongolia and China is greater than at any time since 1966. The U.S. National Climatic Data Center (NCDC) reported that many American cities and towns suffered record cold temperatures in January and early February. According to the NCDC, the average temperature in January "was -0.3 F cooler than the 1901-2000 (20th century) average." China is surviving its most brutal winter in a century. Temperatures in the normally balmy south were so low for so long that some middle-sized cities went days and even weeks without electricity because once power lines had toppled it was too cold or too icy to repair them. There have been so many snow and ice storms in Ontario and Quebec in the past two months that the real estate market has felt the pinch as home buyers have stayed home rather than venturing out looking for new houses. In just the first two weeks of February, Toronto received 70 cm of snow, smashing the record of 66.6 cm for the entire month set back in the pre-SUV, pre-Kyoto, pre-carbon footprint days of 1950. And remember the Arctic Sea ice? The ice we were told so hysterically last fall had melted to its "lowest levels on record? Never mind that those records only date back as far as 1972 and that there is anthropological and geological evidence of much greater melts in the past. The ice is back. Gilles Langis, a senior forecaster with the Canadian Ice Service in Ottawa, says the Arctic winter has been so severe the ice has not only recovered, it is actually 10 to 20 cm thicker in many places than at this time last year. OK, so one winter does not a climate make. It would be premature to claim an Ice Age is looming just because we have had one of our most brutal winters in decades. But if environmentalists and environment reporters can run around shrieking about the manmade destruction of the natural order every time a robin shows up on Georgian Bay two weeks early, then it is at least fair game to use this winter's weather stories to wonder whether the alarmist are being a tad premature. And it's not just anecdotal evidence that is piling up against the climate-change dogma. According to Robert Toggweiler of the Geophysical Fluid Dynamics Laboratory at Princeton University and Joellen Russell, assistant professor of biogeochemical dynamics at the University of Arizona -- two prominent climate modellers -- the computer models that show polar ice-melt cooling the oceans, stopping the circulation of warm equatorial water to northern latitudes and triggering another Ice Age (a la the movie The Day After Tomorrow) are all wrong. "We missed what was right in front of our eyes," says Prof. Russell. It's not ice melt but rather wind circulation that drives ocean currents northward from the tropics. Climate models until now have not properly accounted for the wind's effects on ocean circulation, so researchers have compensated by over-emphasizing the role of manmade warming on polar ice melt. But when Profs. Toggweiler and Russell rejigged their model to include the 40-year cycle of winds away from the equator (then back towards it again), the role of ocean currents bringing warm southern waters to the north was obvious in the current Arctic warming. Last month, Oleg Sorokhtin, a fellow of the Russian Academy of Natural Sciences, shrugged off manmade climate change as "a drop in the bucket." Showing that solar activity has entered an inactive phase, Prof. Sorokhtin advised people to "stock up on fur coats." He is not alone. Kenneth Tapping of our own National Research Council, who oversees a giant radio telescope focused on the sun, is convinced we are in for a long period of severely cold weather if sunspot activity does not pick up soon. The last time the sun was this inactive, Earth suffered the Little Ice Age that lasted about five centuries and ended in 1850. Crops failed through killer frosts and drought. Famine, plague and war were widespread. Harbours froze, so did rivers, and trade ceased. It's way too early to claim the same is about to happen again, but then it's way too early for the hysteria of the global warmers, too.
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#20. To: angle, robin (#18)
History of study into solar variations Around 1900, researchers began to explore connections between solar variations and weather on Earth. Of particular note is the work of Charles Greeley Abbot. Abbot was assigned by the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory (SAO) to detect changes in the radiation of the Sun. His team had to begin by inventing instruments to measure solar radiation. Later, when Abbot was head of the SAO, it established a solar station at Calama, Chile to complement its data from Mount Wilson Observatory. He detected 27 harmonic periods within the 273-month Hale cycles, including 7, 13, and 39 month patterns. He looked for connections to weather by means such as matching opposing solar trends during a month to opposing temperature and precipitation trends in cities. With the advent of dendrochronology, scientists such as Waldo S. Glock attempted to connect variation in tree growth to periodic solar variations in the extant record and infer long-term secular variability in the solar constant from similar variations in millennial-scale chronologies.[9] Statistical studies that correlate weather and climate with solar activity have been popular for centuries, dating back at least to 1801, when William Herschel noted an apparent connection between wheat prices and sunspot records [1]. They now often involve high-density global datasets compiled from surface networks and weather satellite observations and/or the forcing of climate models with synthetic or observed solar variability to investigate the detailed processes by which the effects of solar variations propagate through the Earth's climate system.[10] Uh, what makes you say that? From much of what I've read, the role of the sun is not disputed, it's the matter of not making things worse than they already are..
Where have you read that?
It was about an average winter in this part of Texas. And we had no frozen precip at all. Usually we at least have some sleet or freezing rain. The lowest it ever got was to the upper teens. Usually it gets to the lower teens at least once a winter (or used to until about 20 years ago when I sensed it becoming a bit warmer overall in these parts).
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
Just one of a few that have come out recently. 'Sun not responsible for climate change' The problem with this is that solar cycle 23 was extemely active. It peaked in 1998, remember that hot year?
Another fact is, the more CO2 there is, the warmer the atmosphere becomes. The warmer the atmosphere becomes, the more CO2 is generated by the earth. And so forth and so forth... Natural cycles balance out over time, however, with the input of manmade CO2 into the picture, natural cycles are no longer in balance, and can possibly go out of control. It is that possibility that concerns scientists, and certainly qualifies for more extensive scrutiny.
And the lusher the earth becomes. I fail to see any problem with that. Esp. when the so-called problem is being used as an excuse to tax and control rather than address the myrid problem that DO exist. And the first thing that needs to be done is find a replacement for gas engines. Want to bet on that happening?
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Hmmm. Well now I might just have to rethink my position, as it does appear that the solar output has remained fairly consistent. I do remember looking up that info several years ago and found that solar output had not increased over the past several decades or so. Even with increased sunspot activity, the amount of thermal energy was about the same, from what I remember. However, there might be more solar radiation in terms of X-rays and cosmic rays that aren't being included in the analysis. I'll have to look it up. If I find anything interesting, I'll post it.
That's my take on it. Apparently nothing humans do has any effect according to those who pooh pooh climate change observations. It makes sense to me that if Sudbury Canada causes acid rain in the Fingerlakes New York, more and different releases of a variety of chemicals may have other drastic effects that should be monitored and evaluated.
"Just sit back, don't do anything about it and everything will work out. Hahaha." - Deek Jackson
They already have them. Look at hybrids, or hydrogen fuel engines. In fact, if hydrogen can be produced from sea water, we might have an unlimited source of fuel in the not-so distant future.
Sun spots are associated with UV output. I have asked my climate friends for an analysis of that article just for the hell of it.
The surface of Venus is an example of what could happen. Look it up, the surface temperatures are around 800-900 °F, just a tad bit too hot for the casual sunbather I believe.. Isn't Venus a little closer to the Sun than we are? But I forget; according to global warming "scientists" - the Sun has no effect on warming, which is why, obviously, Pluto is a tropical paradise.... You'll excuse me while I mock the fools.
America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.
Not really. The numbers don't match apparently. I don't have a link handy to back that up. I'll look around for one.
Yes, but it's hotter than the planet Mercury, which is a LOT closer to the Sun than Venus is, and that is due to Venus' carbon dioxide atmosphere reflecting the heat back to the planet as it tries to escape. Look it up. And BTW, Venus is much closer to the Earth than it is to the Sun. Mind you this is from Realclimate which is a well known warmaholics site. You cannot deny the fact that Venus' surface temperatures are largely due to the greenhouse effect.
Here's a little further info on Venus, and what a runaway greenhouse effect really is... From Wikipedia I will give all of you a little clue as to what is going on; stop paying attention to the non-sense that is going around and which is being used to distract you from what is REALLY happening. Kamala just posted the above: I would STRONGLY urge you to read it.... like twice starting RIGHT NOW.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
And that, my friend, is the real answer. CO2 is nothing compared to water vapor in terms of creating a Greenhouse Effect.
America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.
I did, there is a link that I posted on this thread and referred to again. Also, it has been sourced to you on a number of occasions.
'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.' Interesting, you link backs me up but not you. Pretty funny.
If you had read a bit further, you'd realize that Venus lost all of it's water billions of years ago. Try again...
The collapse of a government or a society is NOTHING compared to the collapse of a planet. Go try living on Venus for a bit to see what I mean.
The implication you're making is that water vapor is not a greenhouse gas. Would YOU care to try again?
America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.
Would YOU care to try again? The implication that YOU are making is that non-existent water can cause a planet to experience the "greenhouse effect". We WERE speaking of Venus, remember? Additionally, water vapor (in the form of clouds) blocks significant amounts of the sun's energy. Areas of the Earth that are routinely overcast, such as the UK, are generally cooler than those areas where there is little or no cloud cover. Are you not cooler in the shade than you are in direct sunlight? So sure, water vapor is a greenhouse gas that keeps the Earth's climate temperate and prevents it from losing all of its heat. There are significant differences with carbon dioxide however, as CO2 can and will lead to a runway greenhouse effect if the levels reach a certain threshold where the Earth can no longer aborb more than it produces. Water vapor turns to precipitation once it reaches colder air in the atmosphere. Carbon dioxide remains a gas, and does not fall from the sky in the form of precipitation, it remains in the atmosphere if not aborbed by oceans and vegetation. Water vapor WILL leave the atmosphere if the atmosphere is hot enough however, as it did on Venus due to the extremely high levels of carbon dioxide reflecting heat back towards the planet. It is apparent that the CO2 on Venus is still there after billions of years, so obviously it did not escape the planet as did the water.
Curious. Does nothing dent your head? If the society collaspes........ where do the so-called green house gases come from? Or are these some kind of magic gases? When I eat a lot of beans I seem to have that kind of gas...... magic I mean. But maybe thats just because my s--- don't stink........ To be frank about it, the idea that a few billion ants ... uh, thats you and me, by the way ... running around playing games on a complicated organism like the earth are going to permenantly change how everything works together is beyond my comprehension.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Your comprehension aside, I believe the point being made is that humans most certainly have impacted the Earth in many ways. Everything works together and humans are a part of that working together. Permanently? I won't live that long, but certainly impacts can be seen for a long time. Do we live with the Earth or disregard how "everything works together"? I'm sure you'll agree that consideration for the Earth is not high on the list of corporations doing business in China or Mexico. Strip coal mining in W VA, gold mining in Idaho, the Detroit river, the drought problems in the SE USA...just look around to see examples you can comprehend. Do you think the air and the climate are impervious to these changes?
...everything will work out
Long term? Yes. Short term, as in your or my lifetimes, no. The earth is a self clensing organism, and it will clense itself...... and clense those who abuse her as well. Just exactly in the manner in which His Law is designed to work. Does that mean that I am going to go all looney over some ideas about perdicting climate change? Coming from the same people who can not accurately predict what the temperature is going to be in 7 days - two weeks - one month? But I am going to accept what they say about the climate changing in one year -- five years -- 50 years?! Just because they programmed a computer to say something? Ever hear of garbage in -- garbage out? I think that the man who first came up with that was probably talking about exactly this type of non-sense. Give me a break. Please.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Just because YOU'RE willing to roll the dice with the future of mankind doesn't mean the rest of us are. Do you have children? If you did, you might care a bit more about the Earth's future. And remember, just because your "holy book" doesn't mention it doesn't mean it can't happen.
Oh, I absolutely understand. The major media is behind it, so it has to be gospel. No doubt about it. It is now a part of the ordained religion of the state, and even the Decider has now come out of the closet and is backing it. YESSIRREE!!! BOB!! More power and taxes to the state and you claim I do not understand...... gee, I wonder which of us does not. After all, you must believe in the tooth fairy and the guy from the government that is here just to help you........
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Not at all. Just because there's a lot of people saying something is true doesn't mean it's not. You have to learn that not EVERYTHING is a lie, and that truth is tossed in with known lies in order to discredit it.
Everything is a lie when it serves the purposes of those who are speaking it. Period. Never in the history of the world has any government moved to do something without someone gaining from what is done. That is all you have to ask; who gains. And yet you are here in the 4um, I assume you read much of what is posted, or at least a part, you see where everything is going wrong, and yet you believe that somehow, this time, for the FIRST time, A government, be it small, local, international, or worldly, is going to correctly grasp a problem THAT THEY ARE PROCLAIMING EXISTS and ... are you ready for this? MAKE IT RIGHT! For whom, I may ask? Because it certainly will not be for you, or for me, or for anyone who posts here in 4um, or for their children... so tell me, who are they benefiting with all of the power they are going to accumulate and the taxes they will impose over this non-sense? Please, I really want to know. And while you are at it, since you claim to understand all of this, please point to the specific man from the government who is here to help all of us. Please, I would really like to met such a man, cause up till now, I was sure he did not exist. Silly me.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
Have you never heard of reverse psychology? Tell someone that something is bad for them, they think you are trying to deprive them. Tell them something is good for them, then they think you're selling something rotten. These folks have it all figured out richard, and they are more than a few steps ahead of you. Being that the controllers KNOW that a large number of people will never believe anything they say, they come out with this sort of thing, and have people like Al Gore become the poster child for the cause, for an added touch.
Do you think the air and the climate are impervious to these changes? Long term? Yes. Short term, as in your or my lifetimes, no. Give me a break. Religion is no excuse for not taking care of what's been entrusted to us.
...everything will work out
You really should not go there. The Bible is very specific about our responsibilities to care for the land, water and air, and I fully accept that. That does not mean turning over this responsibility to the government that they may farm it out to private interests for profit. If you do not understand that, then you have little understanding of how the world operates. I have made this point countless times in 4um; I quit participating in 'their' system. I do not pay into it, nor ask it for anything. Period. I doubt, very, very much doubt, that you have made any such commitment.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
I agree, and thank you for making my point for me.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
I don't think you get it. What I'm saying is that you are against what they are saying because it is "they" that are saying it, where in fact they WANT you to be against alternative energy and restrictions on their free wheeling ways, and you are falling for the reverse psychology. They were never FOR restrictions on themselves, and you've played into their sleight of hand.
I 'get it' very well. I understand exactly what is going on, which is to increase the power of the governments over the people and their actions. It has nothing to do with alternative energy UNLESS they control it. It has nothing to do with restrictions on their free wheeling ways; it is about restrictions on us, and our abilities to move about and work for a living wage. That is what it is all about. And people like you will complain about the government, and the first chance you get, vote or argue to give that same government increased powers. I get it very well indeed.
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest.
I get it very well indeed. A) I voted for Ron Paul, does that piss you off? B) I know you THINK you get it, but I don't think you truly do.
How much data over how long a period has there been recorded sun-spot activity?
The longest recorded aspect of solar variations are changes in sunspots. The first record of sunspots dates to around 800 BC in China and the oldest surviving drawing of a sunspot dates to 1128. In 1610, astronomers began using the telescope to make observations of sunspots and their motions. Initial study was focused on their nature and behavior.[7] Although the physical aspects of sunspots were not identified until the 1900s, observations continued. Study was hampered during the 1600s and 1700s due to the low number of sunspots during what is now recognized as an extended period of low solar activity, known as the Maunder Minimum. By the 1800s, there was a long enough record of sunspot numbers to infer periodic cycles in sunspot activity. In 1845, Princeton University professors Joseph Henry and Stephen Alexander observed the Sun with a thermopile and determined that sunspots emitted less radiation than surrounding areas of the Sun. The emission of higher than average amounts of radiation later were observed from the solar faculae.[8]
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#21. To: mirage (#4)
But, but, but, but....all the "climate change" people say the Sun has nothing to do with it!
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#22. To: mirage (#6)
The experts keep saying that Solar Activity has no effect. Its all Greenhouse Gas emissions.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#23. To: angle (#0)
#24. To: FormerLurker, mirage (#22)
Where have you read that?
By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#25. To: richard9151 (#13)
Here is a fact; the more CO2 there is, the more green plants there are.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#26. To: FormerLurker (#25)
Another fact is, the more CO2 there is, the warmer the atmosphere becomes. The warmer the atmosphere becomes, the more CO2 is generated by the earth.
#27. To: farmfriend (#24)
'Sun not responsible for climate change' By Roger Highfield, Science Editor
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#28. To: FormerLurker (#21)
the role of the sun is not disputed, it's the matter of not making things worse than they already are..
#29. To: richard9151 (#26)
And the first thing that needs to be done is find a replacement for gas engines. Want to bet on that happening?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#30. To: FormerLurker (#27)
However, there might be more solar radiation in terms of X-rays and cosmic rays that aren't being included in the analysis.
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#31. To: richard9151 (#26)
And the lusher the earth becomes. I fail to see any problem with that.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#32. To: FormerLurker (#31)
#33. To: FormerLurker (#31)
The surface of Venus is an example of what could happen.
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#34. To: mirage (#32)
(Edited)
Isn't Venus a little closer to the Sun than we are?
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#35. To: FormerLurker (#31)
The surface of Venus is an example of what could happen.
Although most of the warm surface temperature of Venus is accounted for by its CO2 greenhouse effect, there are suggestions that it is warmer than it should be on the basis of CO2 alone. There are various theories that have been proposed for the source of the additional greenhouse effect, and sorting this out will be one of the major objectives of Venus Express.
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#36. To: farmfriend (#35)
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#37. To: mirage, richard9151, farmfriend (#32)
Studies have suggested that several billion years ago Venus's atmosphere was much more like Earth's than it is now, and that there were probably substantial quantities of liquid water on the surface, but a runaway greenhouse effect was caused by the evaporation of that original water, which generated a critical level of greenhouse gases in its atmosphere.[20]
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#38. To: FormerLurker, mirage, farmfriend, all (#37)
The Worst Is Yet To Come
#39. To: FormerLurker (#37)
evaporation of that original water
#40. To: farmfriend, angle (#17)
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.
#41. To: robin, angle (#40)
I did, there is a link that I posted on this thread and referred to again. Also, it has been sourced to you on a number of occasions.
Why do we fall sir? So we can learn to pick ourselves up. -- Alfred, Batman Begins
#42. To: mirage (#39)
CO2 is nothing compared to water vapor in terms of creating a Greenhouse Effect.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#43. To: richard9151 (#38)
Kamala just posted the above: I would STRONGLY urge you to read it.... like twice starting RIGHT NOW.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#44. To: FormerLurker (#42)
Try again...
#45. To: mirage (#44)
(Edited)
The implication you're making is that water vapor is not a greenhouse gas.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#46. To: FormerLurker (#43)
The collapse of a government or a society is NOTHING compared to the collapse of a planet. Go try living on Venus for a bit to see what I mean.
#47. To: richard9151 (#46)
are going to permenantly change how everything works together is beyond my comprehension.
#48. To: angle (#47)
Do you think the air and the climate are impervious to these changes?
#49. To: richard9151 (#48)
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#50. To: FormerLurker (#49)
(Edited)
Just because YOU'RE willing to roll the dice with the future of mankind doesn't mean the rest of us are.
#51. To: richard9151 (#50)
After all, you must believe in the tooth fairy and the guy from the government that is here just to help you........
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#52. To: FormerLurker (#51)
You have to learn that not EVERYTHING is a lie,
#53. To: richard9151 (#52)
Please, I really want to know. And while you are at it, since you claim to understand all of this, please point to the specific man from the government who is here to help all of us. Please, I would really like to met such a man, cause up till now, I was sure he did not exist. Silly me.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#54. To: richard9151 (#48)
#55. To: angle (#54)
Give me a break. Religion is no excuse for not taking care of what's been entrusted to us.
#56. To: FormerLurker (#53)
Being that the controllers KNOW that a large number of people will never believe anything they say, they come out with this sort of thing, and have people like Al Gore become the poster child for the cause, for an added touch.
#57. To: richard9151 (#56)
I agree, and thank you for making my point for me.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#58. To: FormerLurker (#57)
I don't think you get it.
#59. To: richard9151 (#58)
That is what it is all about. And people like you will complain about the government, and the first chance you get, vote or argue to give that same government increased powers.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
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