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(s)Elections
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Title: Naomi Wolf: Why Barack Obama Got My Vote
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/naomi ... t-my-v_b_88956.html?view=print
Published: Feb 28, 2008
Author: Naomi Wolf
Post Date: 2008-02-29 13:37:35 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 420
Comments: 42

I just flew back from Australia, where I was speaking about the erosions of our civil liberties. Believe me, the rest of the world is agog at our inaction as what makes us Americans is being set aflame; and they are more scared of what an unsheathed US could do to the rest of the world than we are.

They also get more news out in the rest of the world about these depredations than we do here in our media bubble. For instance: I read in a small item in The Australian that an Australian justice of the peace was swept up in Pakistan and held in Guantanamo for FOUR YEARS.

Get that? A justice of the peace in a developed-world democracy. Had you heard of that?

Me neither.

Keep in mind, to be a justice of the peace in Australia you need to be cleared in a thorough criminal check.

This gave me chills because, once again, it is so scarily predictable: when I first started trying to alert people about the ramifications of the Military Commissions Act, and how it gives the US power to seize innocent people off the street simply by the president's naming them 'enemy combatants', I pointed out that nothing would prevent the US from rendering an EU minister off the streets of Belgium -- and flying him or her to a 'black site' for torture -- if he or she opposed a US pipeline plan, or was prosecuting US war criminals such as Rumsfeld in the Hague. And that the clear lesson of Germany and other closing societies such as Argentina is that once those 'disappearances' begin, that is it; few are then brave enough to object

-- and at that point objection is too weak to be effective anyway.

They rendered an Australian justice of the peace -- and that rendition did not even make the US news. So how can we be sure there is something so sacred about an American justice of the peace or even a judge? Say, an American judge who ruled against the Military Commissions?

This kind of leap to the next level of threat to us as citizens seems implausible to many people because they assume that there is an orderly and effective democratic response to this kind of eruption of lawlessness -- (oh gosh, actually it isn't lawlessness any more, now is it) -- or, I should say, to this kind of abrupt shift to a heightened level of state sadism; Well -- someone would bring charges!, one assumes. Or: someone would sue! Or: surely the ACLU would do something!

But seriously, I ask you to consider: What would indeed happen as a countermove if a US justice of the peace or a judge was rendered? The Bar Association would protest? Scary. Intimidating.

I raise this as an urgent matter in part because of a recent conference call I participated in with Hamid Khan, the head of the courageous movement of Pakistani lawyers and judges. In the call, which he made in spite of great danger to himself and probably to his family, there was a moment when he described the internecine warfare and factionalism of the opposition to Musharraf. In his voice was the tired, frustrated sound I have heard so often in this country when groups on the left JUST CAN'T GET IT TOGETHER. No matter how urgent the need is. Whereas in Pakistan's case they were having trouble getting the anti-Musharraf forces to act together -- and there was so much at stake.

What became clear from that call is that we are fools to assume that if the government makes a dramatically violent move, which all the laws I have highlighted now make entirely possible, that anyone will know clearly what to do or how to implement what should be done in response. In Pakistan, it was clear, in spite of this powerful grassroots movement, no one had a clear Plan B when Musharraf declared a state of emergency and began rounding up the lawyers and arresting the judges. No one had an unquestioned leadership structure in place for the countermovement; no one had a subcontinent-sized phone tree or a nice big -- oh, nation-sized -- conference room in which to meet.

We need to consider this right now when we think about our own country: In a sudden sharp move on the part of the US government, even a `small' one such as this imagined scenario of the rendition of a handful of US judges, there is nothing a democracy is prepared effectively to do; that is the nature of democracy. There is no War Room for democracy; no one has an organizational chart detailing who would do what; no one would have a master strategy.

When people think about the many laws that invite this kind of overreaching now in the US -- the National Security Presidential Directive (NSPD 51), for instance, that would give the president control over all systems -- governmental, legal, tribal -- in the event of an emergency -- they just assume that, gosh darn it, WE WON'T TAKE IT. And it may well be that we wouldn't want to take it and we would be willing in great numbers to run to the ramparts. But here is what I have to report to you, that the conference call made clear, and my Pakistani friend would confirm this: in a crackdown, even in the best-case scenario, NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THE RAMPARTS ARE.

Many people have expressed faith in the Military. I am sure most of our military are patriots and cherish freedom; but who would direct a resistance to such an edict? What would be the chain of command? What about ordnance? Many people have expressed faith in the courts, but if they went after the judges -- just a handful of judges -- as they did in Pakistan, would the judiciary prevail? How? All closed societies have judiciaries; the judges just know which way to rule.

Many others assume the media will cover such a depredation and rouse people; well, ideally -- but just days ago we saw a systemic blackout of a 60 Minutes report on Don Siegelman, the Democrat probably wrongly jailed in Alabama, by a TV affiliate with close ties to the White House.

Resistance? Sure, but how? The trouble with an aggressive move in any one of these directions on the part of the government is that THEY HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN and we have not. They aren't surprised or shocked; we are. They have a plan; we don't.

So surely, better to roll back these terrifying laws. Just in case.

I have noted it is always true that societies that begin by torturing people at the margins end up torturing members of their own citizenry. Consider again: the Oscar-winning documentary for this year, Taxi to the Dark Side, which proves that any of us can become a monster torturer, following orders, and proves also that the edict to torture was systemic and came from the very top, won't be seen by most Americans. This is because the Discovery Channel bought it hoping to air it -- but then backed out. (Its affiliates have close ties to the military-industrial complex.) Will the Oscar win get it on the airwaves? Doubtful. Watch it somehow and drag all your friends to see it. Then consider that what happened to Dilawar, an innocent Afghani taxi driver, could happen to you or me.

When I went to see it in a theatre there were six people present. So America can't know in time what is being done to others to take steps to protect ourselves.

What is leadership? Leadership means getting out in front of where people are and waking them up. Right now, given these violent possible threats to us and our families, we are sleeping.

Which is why I am formally coming out of the closet with my support for Senator Barack Obama. Of all the candidates running now, he is the leader on understanding the threat to the Constitution and actually taking action, not just mouthing sound bites, on the need to deny torturers space in our nation and to restore the rule of law.

"Lawyers for Gitmo detainees endorse Obama," read a recent headline on the Boston Globe's political blog. In the article, reporter Charlie Savage notes that "More than 80 volunteer lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees today endorsed Illinois Senator Barack Obama's presidential bid. The attorneys said in a joint statement that they believed Obama was the best choice to roll back the Bush-Cheney administration's detention policies in the war on terrorism and thereby to 'restore the rule of law, demonstrate our commitment to human rights, and repair our reputation in the world community.'"

The lawyers who signed this letter -- prominent names on the list included Washington lawyer Thomas Wilner, retired federal appeals court judge John Gibbons, and retired Rear Admiral Donald Guter, who was the Navy's top JAG officer from 2000 to 2002 -- applauded Obama for having stood up in 2006 against aspects of the Military Commissions Act. Unfortunately, his fight was ultimately unsuccessful -- which is why we are all still in danger. But unlike other candidates he truly fought and he understood the nature of the danger: "When we were walking the halls of the Capitol trying to win over enough Senators to beat back the administration's bill, Senator Obama made his key staffers and even his offices available to help us," the lawyers wrote. "Senator Obama worked with us to count the votes, and he personally lobbied colleagues who worried about the political ramifications of voting to preserve habeas corpus for the men held at Guantanamo. He has understood that our strength as a nation stems from our commitment to our core values, and that we are strong enough to protect both our security and those values. Senator Obama demonstrated real leadership then and since, continuing to raise Guantanamo and habeas corpus in his speeches and in the debates."

Senator Clinton also opposed the law. In 2006 she said: "If enacted, this law would give license to this Administration to pick people up off the streets of the United States and hold them indefinitely without charges and without legal recourse." She gets the danger; many of her colleagues do too. But this issue requires bold language and action. Senator Clinton has not foregrounded the issue of the subversion of the rule of law in her appearances or speeches; and I am very VERY sorry to say that she did not oppose torture until she opposed it.

I say this with regret: She and her husband really know how to run a country; they delivered eight years of peace and prosperity. I know her to be a skilled politician and motivated by sincere love of country. Mrs. Clinton would be a terrific executive -- in a stable democracy. But that is not enough right now. These are times that should try men's souls -- and women's also. In a closing society, a leader has to be willing to face down evil, engage it and call it by its name.

Remember: when activists started to push hard to raise awareness of the dangers of torture and indefinite detention, many on the Hill were scared to join the fight because it was then politically unpopular. But to me, if you are not really against torture -- always and under every political change in climate, and let us note that former torture victim and prisoner of war John McCain shamefully dropped his fight against the torture loopholes in the law as well -- then you are not really, in my view, fit to be an American President.

Gender has nothing to do with it. Race has nothing to do with it.

Integrity has something to do with it.

That is why Barack Obama has my vote. Of all the leading candidates, he is the only one on these issues who has consistently acted like a true American.

And if I hear -- as I am likely to -- from legions of US feminists outraged at me for choosing this man over that woman, I will gladly sit down and explain why I am certain that these issues are so urgent that they overshadow absolutely everything else.

Anyway, the man is a feminist; he has a woman-friendly policy vision. And while it would be a thrill to see the first woman elected president, in the last analysis, a real feminist need not define people or support on the basis of gender. Certainly not when our house -- with the precious Constitution held without representation within it -- is burning down.

Naomi Wolf is the author of The End of America (Chelsea Green) and the co-founder of the American Freedom Campaign

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#3. To: nobody (#1)

the man is a feminist

my god...she's spouting but there's nothing coming out.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   13:44:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: angle (#2)

Naomi Wolf is not a naive voter:

Naomi Wolf: 10 Steps To Fascism

Naomi Wolf Interview - The End of America

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:47:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#4)

Maybe she has a ghostwriter. The above article is atrocious.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   13:49:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: robin (#4)

She and her husband really know how to run a country; they delivered eight years of peace and prosperity

Hey Naomi, hear about nafta? Give me a break...not a naive voter?

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   13:51:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: angle (#5)

"Lawyers for Gitmo detainees endorse Obama," read a recent headline on the Boston Globe's political blog. In the article, reporter Charlie Savage notes that "More than 80 volunteer lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees today endorsed Illinois Senator Barack Obama's presidential bid. The attorneys said in a joint statement that they believed Obama was the best choice to roll back the Bush-Cheney administration's detention policies in the war on terrorism and thereby to 'restore the rule of law, demonstrate our commitment to human rights, and repair our reputation in the world community.'"

She did not write this.

And her 10 Steps to Fascism are well worth reading/watching.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:52:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: angle (#6)

Have you watched 10 Steps to Fascism?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:52:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: robin (#0)

All Naomi needs to do now is tell him to dress in earth tones. She told Al Gore that's all it takes to be an alpha male and win the Presidency.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:54:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#9)

Al Gore did get the most votes actually, and he could have won this time; she has a point.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:55:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: Brian S, aristeides, iconoclast, Elliott Jackalope (#0)

ping

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:55:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: robin (#7)

More than 80 volunteer lawyers

Whoo hoo, well slap my knee. Lawyers. That's truly shocking. They must be hoping to fill all those US Attorney positions.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   13:57:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: angle (#12)

"More than 80 volunteer lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees today endorsed Illinois Senator Barack Obama's presidential bid. The attorneys said in a joint statement that they believed Obama was the best choice to roll back the Bush-Cheney administration's detention policies in the war on terrorism and thereby to 'restore the rule of law, demonstrate our commitment to human rights, and repair our reputation in the world community.'"

Why not repeat the whole sentence? These are no ordinary lawyers.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   13:59:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: robin (#10)

"She told Al Gore that's all it takes to be an alpha male and win the Presidency."

she has a point.

Jeezus. If your logic is any indication of Obama devotees, then god help us.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   14:00:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: angle (#14)

Al Gore did get the most votes actually, and he could have won this time; she has a point.

Do you deny this? Why do you casually drop integral parts of posts?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   14:01:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: robin (#13)

More than 80 volunteer lawyers for Guantanamo Bay detainees

No ordinary lawyers? You have much experience with any lawyers?

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   14:01:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: angle (#16)

Yes, I have. These are not ambulance chasers. In fact, they have a really unpleasant job. They've witnessed first hand the Bush Regime's attitude about human dignity.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   14:02:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: robin (#15)

Do you deny this? Why do you casually drop integral parts of posts?

No doubt the SC stole the election. I thought you were referring to the post you responded to. Pardon my incorrect inference.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   14:03:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: angle (#14)

then, God help us.

Naomi Wolf is a Rhodes Scholar.

CadetD  posted on  2008-02-29   14:08:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: robin (#17)

If you are so enamored by the 80 Volunteer Lawyers who witnessed first hand the Bush Regime's attitude about human dignity endorsing Obama, then vote for him.

I seriously doubt he's anything more than a made for TV/MSM presidential contender. And he could go all the way. But I'm not a "believer". Sorry. He didn't get where he is without the powers that be wanting him there. If you can't see that, then continue with the fantasy.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   14:08:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: CadetD (#19)

Naomi Wolf is a Rhodes Scholar.

That explains a lot. Thank you.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   14:09:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: angle (#20)

I am impressed by the endorsement by the author of "10 Steps to Fascism" and the endorsement by 80 Gitmo Lawyers.

So who will you be voting for in November who has a chance of becoming president?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   14:11:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: angle (#21)

If you disapprove of all Rhodes Scholars, I guess you must also disapprove of Adam von Trott zu Solz.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-02-29   14:12:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: angle (#12) (Edited)

The rebellion of Parliament against Charles I's tyranny was led by lawyers.

For that matter, the American rebellion against George III's tyranny was largely led by lawyers.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-02-29   14:13:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: angle, CadetD (#21)

Funny, that never upset anyone on the "10 Steps to Fascim" threads.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   14:13:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: robin (#25)

Funny, that never upset anyone...

Listen, I was encouraged when someone as mainstream as Wolf came out exposing fascism-in-Amerika, because a lot of intelligent people listen to those of her ilk. Then, I discovered this little detail of her being a Rhodes Scholar, and since then have been suspicious that Ms.Wolf is controlled opposition. And, I must plead ignorance as to who Adam von Trott zu Solz might be.

CadetD  posted on  2008-02-29   14:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: CadetD (#26)

I must plead ignorance as to who Adam von Trott zu Solz might be.

Why don't you follow the link and read his Wikipedia entry?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-02-29   14:25:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: robin (#0)

The attorneys said in a joint statement that they believed Obama was the best choice to roll back the Bush-Cheney administration's detention policies in the war on terrorism and thereby to 'restore the rule of law, demonstrate our commitment to human rights, and repair our (Americas) reputation in the world community.'"

These scumbags should first restore their occupations reputation. Lawyers are a key element working against the "rule of right and wrong" and all too often hide behind bad law to implement psychopathic policies.

On the one hand Wolf says we must return to the rule of law, but then insists that the Military Commissions Act is a major threat. Well, it's the law ain't it ???

Wolf and Obama are communists ... communists are supposedly the dialectical enemy of fascists, but in reality they are one and the same, opposite sides of the same coin.

NONE of the three candidates mentioned in this article are worth spitting on.

And when Wolf speaks of the Clintons running the country ... balderdash, they didn't run shit, Bush doesn't either, they're all puppets of the International black-mailing, bribing, butcher bankers.

Anyone can be correct about one thing such as this country is fascist, and wrong about a myriad of other things, such as lawyers or politicians are going to save this country.

This country will sink or swim depending upon whether the people can agree to quit stealing from each other through politics, quit participating in all of the frauds promoted by the elites such as the banking/ fake credit scam, the SS System scam, the hand-outs to drop-outs scams, the military industrial complex scams, the vote for me and I'll give you something free scams, the tax breaks for tax freaks scams ...

Truthfully, it's really every man for himself because out of every hundred the other 99 are without a clue or an ounce of hope.

And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived. ... Lysander Spooner

noone222  posted on  2008-02-29   15:36:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: CadetD (#19)

Naomi Wolf is a Rhodes Scholar.

No shit. No wonder she likes Klinton.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2008-02-29   15:46:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: noone222 (#28)

Perfect.

Mark

If America is destroyed, it may be by Americans who salute the flag, sing the national anthem, march in patriotic parades, cheer Fourth of July speakers - normally good Americans who fail to comprehend what is required to keep our country strong and free - Americans who have been lulled into a false security (April 1968).---Ezra Taft Benson, US Secretary of Agriculture 1953-1961 under Eisenhower

Kamala  posted on  2008-02-29   15:47:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: robin (#22)

Ron Paul, of course, and no one else.

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   16:59:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: noone222 (#28)

Lawyers are a key element working against the "rule of right and wrong" and all too often hide behind bad law to implement psychopathic policies.

Like Congress?

angle  posted on  2008-02-29   17:02:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Kamala, noone222 (#30)

How is this like a communist or a Clinton?

The End of America

In The End of America Wolf takes a historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining the 10 steps necessary for a state to take control of individuals' lives:

  1. Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.

  2. Create secret prisons where torture takes place.
  3. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.
  4. Set up an internal surveillance system.

  5. Harass citizens' groups.
  6. Engage in arbitrary detention and release.
  7. Target key individuals.
  8. Control the press.
  9. Treat all political dissents to be traitors.

  10. Suspend the rule of law.

The book explains how this pattern was followed in Nazi Germany and Musolini's Italy as well as elsewhere, and of course compares it to the current state of affairs in American Political power since September 11, 2001.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-02-29   19:08:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: robin (#0)

Anyway, the man is a feminist

And this is a good thing? Feminism--globalism--communism--they all go hand in hand. Someone should tell Ms. Wolf to pipe down and get in the kitchen and make me a pie.

Vitamin Z  posted on  2008-02-29   19:14:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Vitamin Z (#34)

Someone should tell Ms. Wolf to pipe down and get in the kitchen and make me a pie.

chauvinist pig, you! :P

christine  posted on  2008-02-29   19:24:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: robin (#33)

Suspend the rule of law.

More appropriately stated (IMHO) "Change the Law to make what the Fascist(s) deem necessary" ... also draft attachments that relieve certain elements of subjection to the law ie., "Presidential signing statements".

Fascism / Communism ... not much difference in the end result.

And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived. ... Lysander Spooner

noone222  posted on  2008-02-29   19:30:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: christine (#35)

chauvinist pig, you! :P

Hey, I love women, especially when they're in the kitchen making me a pie. Someone's gotta keep me fat and happy!

Vitamin Z  posted on  2008-02-29   19:37:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: robin (#33) (Edited)

In The End of America Wolf takes a historical look at the rise of fascism, outlining the 10 steps necessary for a state to take control of individuals' lives:

Invoke a terrifying internal and external enemy.

Create secret prisons where torture takes place. Develop a thug caste or paramilitary force not answerable to citizens.

Set up an internal surveillance system.

Harass citizens' groups.

Engage in arbitrary detention and release.

Target key individuals.

Control the press.

Treat all political dissents to be traitors.

Suspend the rule of law.

1. Under Clinton the BATF was an internal enemy (along with others less dicussed publicly) ... have we forgotten WACO ? [Clinton's watch also attempted to blame militia folks for OKC ... and the foreign threat could have been the blind shiek that the FBI helped bomb the wtc. (enough)

2. I don't suppose an embargo against Iraq and other countries could be called torture ... but millions starved to death or died without medical supplies. Torture goes on and has gone on in American penal institutions "forever" ... and doesn't respect any particular brand of tyranny over the other.

3. Clinton didn't invent surveillance of citizens, that too has been around forever ... FBI, CIA, ... do you recall that Clinton pulled 900 FBI files on his political opponents almost immediately after getting elected ?

4. The Patriot movement suffered tremendous setbacks under Clinton and after OKC. He threatened talk radio (and talk radio drastically changed soon afterwards), he threatened militia groups and patriots ... do you recall the Marines at 29 Palms being asked if they would fire on Americans to take their guns ?

5. Millions were jailed under Clinton for alleged domestic violence and for possession of marijuana ... look, Clinton was a puppet like all of them are ... no better no worse.

6. Clinton fired every US Attorney soon after being elected.

7. Press has been controlled for 50 years or longer.

And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived. ... Lysander Spooner

noone222  posted on  2008-02-29   20:18:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: robin (#0)

When people think about the many laws that invite this kind of overreaching now in the US -- the National Security Presidential Directive (NSPD 51 [link to whitehouse.gov]), for instance, that would give the president control over all systems -- governmental, legal, tribal -- in the event of an emergency -- they just assume that, gosh darn it, WE WON'T TAKE IT. And it may well be that we wouldn't want to take it and we would be willing in great numbers to run to the ramparts. But here is what I have to report to you, that the conference call made clear, and my Pakistani friend would confirm this: in a crackdown, even in the best-case scenario, NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THE RAMPARTS ARE.

America: the Next Rome?

Brilliant criticism, Naomi Wolf. Thank you.

buckeye  posted on  2008-02-29   21:30:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: noone222 (#38)

1. Under Clinton the BATF was an internal enemy (along with others less dicussed publicly) ... have we forgotten WACO ? [Clinton's watch also attempted to blame militia folks for OKC ... and the foreign threat could have been the blind shiek that the FBI helped bomb the wtc. (enough)

2. I don't suppose an embargo against Iraq and other countries could be called torture ... but millions starved to death or died without medical supplies. Torture goes on and has gone on in American penal institutions "forever" ... and doesn't respect any particular brand of tyranny over the other.

3. Clinton didn't invent surveillance of citizens, that too has been around forever ... FBI, CIA, ... do you recall that Clinton pulled 900 FBI files on his political opponents almost immediately after getting elected ?

4. The Patriot movement suffered tremendous setbacks under Clinton and after OKC. He threatened talk radio (and talk radio drastically changed soon afterwards), he threatened militia groups and patriots ... do you recall the Marines at 29 Palms being asked if they would fire on Americans to take their guns ?

5. Millions were jailed under Clinton for alleged domestic violence and for possession of marijuana ... look, Clinton was a puppet like all of them are ... no better no worse.

6. Clinton fired every US Attorney soon after being elected.

7. Press has been controlled for 50 years or longer.

Bush just continued and intensified what Clinton started. Just as Clinton intensified what those who came before him started.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   14:41:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#40)

I think HW Bush has a lot to answer for.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:21:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#40)

Bush just continued and intensified what Clinton started. Just as Clinton intensified what those who came before him started.

But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same object evinces a design to reduce them (us) under absolute despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such government, and to provide new guards for their future security. — Such has been the patient sufferance of these colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former systems of government. The history of the present (President of the US) King of Great Britain is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute tyranny over these states.

And the men who loan money to governments, so called, for the purpose of enabling the latter to rob, enslave, and murder their people, are among the greatest villains that the world has ever seen. And they as much deserve to be hunted and killed (if they cannot otherwise be got rid of) as any slave traders, robbers, or pirates that ever lived. ... Lysander Spooner

noone222  posted on  2008-03-02   3:51:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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