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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Grief Stricken Father Sentenced to Six Years in Prison (My Title)
Source: Toledo Blade
URL Source: http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 80301/NEWS02/803010412/-1/NEWS
Published: Mar 1, 2008
Author: BLADE STAFF WRITER
Post Date: 2008-03-01 09:07:05 by iconoclast
Keywords: None
Views: 1525
Comments: 139

Article published Saturday, March 1, 2008

Fackelman given nearly 6 years in home invasion

Sentence includes ban from Bedford Twp.

By MARK REITER BLADE STAFF WRITER

MONROE - A Toledo man who claimed he couldn't recall pulling a loaded handgun on the man he held responsible for causing the road-rage death of his teenage son will serve at least 5 3/4 years in prison.

At the sentencing for Charles Fackelman in Monroe County Circuit Court, Judge Joseph Costello, Jr., said the defendant's actions in the March 24 gun toting attack on Randy Krell and his neighbor were methodical and controlled.

"Everything you did that day demonstrates to me that you knew what you were doing," the judge said.

Fackelman, 47, was convicted after a jury trial in January on two counts of felonious assault, home invasion, and gun possession. He will receive credit for the 31 days he has served in the county jail.

At his trial, Fackelman took the stand and claimed he didn't remember driving to the Lambertville home of Mr. Krell, pulling a loaded gun, pursuing him to the home of the neighbor, Thomas Williams, and kicking down the steel door of Mr. Williams' house in an attempt to get to Mr. Krell.

Not guilty by reason of insanity was among the verdicts that the jury could have reached. Instead, the panel found Fackelman guilty but mentally ill.

Judge Costello imposed a two-year mandatory sentence for the gun possession conviction and added 3 3/4 years to 20 years to the punishment for the other offenses. Fackelman also was ordered to never enter Bedford Township upon his release from prison without the court's permission.

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

The car, driven by Austin Oberle, went out of control at a Whiteford Township intersection and crashed into a tree, killing Charlie Fackelman, the defendant's 17-year-old son, and seriously injuring a teenage girl.

Mr. Krell, a former Bedford Public Schools board member, was convicted in a jury trial in August of negligent homicide. He served about five months of a nine-month jail sentence.

Mr. Williams, who is an assistant principal at Dundee High School, and Mr. Krell were in the courtroom for the sentencing yesterday, but neither victim wanted to make a statement to the court. They left the packed courtroom immediately.

Fackelman, who was dismissed from his job with the U.S. Postal Service, didn't make a statement at his sentencing.

A day before the confrontation at Mr. Krell's home - and 32 days after the crash that killed his son - Fackelman attended the Whitmer High School baseball team's first home game of the season. His son would have been a senior and the team's starting shortstop.

According to testimony, the defendant acted strangely and stood alone at the game. Witnesses said he stared into the infield at the position that Charlie would have played. His wife, Janet, testified that her husband came home from the game, went to his bedroom, and cried himself to sleep.

Kenneth Simon, a Wayne County, Michigan, assistant prosecutor who handled the case, argued to Judge Costello that a message needed to be sent to discourage others from taking the law into their own hands.

"What would have happened in this case if Randy Krell had not gone to Mr. Williams' house? I think at the very least that Mr. Fackelman's intent was more than pointing a gun at Mr. Krell," Mr. Simon said.

Defense attorney Asad Farah argued for leniency and asked the judge to depart from state sentencing guidelines.

Mr. Farah said the tragic death of his son threw Fackelman into mental illness and he couldn't deal with the loss, causing unusual mitigating factors in the case.

"He needs help. He needs to continue on with his medication. He needs to continue on with his therapy," Mr. Farah said. "There is no dispute that he has a mental illness. The question is whether he will receive help under a prison sanction."

Judge Costello said that Fackelman put the victims and their families as well as their neighborhood in a state of fear, to the point that Mr. Williams became suspicious when a strange vehicle drove past.

"No one should have to live like that," the judge said.

Under state law, Fackelman will not be eligible to appear before the parole board until he serves the minimum punishment of 69 months.

Fackelman also was ordered by Judge Costello to pay restitution of $1,564 to Mr. Williams and his insurance carrier for the damage that he did to the home.

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#87. To: RickyJ (#85)

He didn't make anyone run off the road.

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them. It was called a Road Rage incident in this account:

Krell served six months and is already out of jail.

"Six years to six month is an incredible difference considering the results of their actions," said Eric Fackelman, family member. "Both people made a threat. One used a gun, one used a car. The end result with the car was death and maiming, and the end result with the gun was nothing."

In January, a jury found the elder Fackelman guilty but mentally ill of the charges. Attorney Asad Farah says his client is currently on anti-psychotic medication and fears in prison Fackelman won't get the treatment he needs.

"We have an individual who has a mental illness who has a psychotic break for whatever reason," Farah said.

...

The Monroe County Sheriff said that alcohol was not involved in the accident, but excessive speed did play a factor.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: robin (#84)

I don't buy the innocent story. but for the sake of arguement let's say that someone...... who throws trash out of a window of a moving car, anyway? that shows a sick mentality right there... but, OK. let's say someone was unconscience enough to do that. then the driver sees someone chasing him for no reason? i cant get away from the fact that no one can 'be chased' unless they flee, they engage a chase. why would a sane or innocent person start driving 85mph , fleeing some kook? a car full of teens could have defended themself, they could have drove to the police station if they were scared. what could the chaser do? ram them?

No, i believe their actions very clearly portrayed their guilt postion. hence i dont believe they were innocent scared children chased by a loon. just leave people alone, be peaceful and they would be alive. i never bother anyone, i leave people alone!! because they deserve it and so do we.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Artisan (#88)

A frightened driver would also. Krell wanted to confront them, not pass them.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:23:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: robin (#89)

If an angry or lunatic driver drove agressively towards me i would not flee at 85MPH,. the options are that the loon, who is acting apart from sanity, in other words for no reason, might rear end you or ram your car. This is very possible because, the more we post the more stories i remember. last year my wife called me and told me that some crazy man on the 405 did that very thing to her at about 830PM on a weeknight. he cut right in front of her, driving crazy, looking rageful and then slammed on his breaks right in front of her. on the freeway going about 65!

she was scared to death, swerved to miss hitting him, thank God, and she called 911. then afterwards she called me. she did not, however, accelerate to 90MPh and kill herself. because she was not guilty and was not fleeing him., had no reason to feel guilty and run.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: robin (#87) (Edited)

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them.

Which was a stupid thing to do but he did not cause the accident. If he would have caused the accident then Austin would have never been convicted of two felonies. This whole thread boils down to logic vs. emotion.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Artisan (#90) (Edited)

These were teenagers.

BTW, the sheriff says alcohol was not involved.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:31:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: RickyJ (#91)

As the driver, but the state of the driver's mind due to being chased was clearly not taken into consideration.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:33:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: robin (#89)

This story reminds me of the story a while back about the old man who was having his yard vandalized for the umpteenth time and went out and shot the teenager dead,. yeah, sad story and he was demonized and the poor teen angelic vandal was glorified and a shrine put up to him.

Did the teen deserve death? no, but he sure wont hinder or assault or damage an innocent stranger again who was simply trying to mind his own business. The dead stupid teen initaited the crime, and the use of force. he caused it all, it's all his fault. nothing would have happened if he did not tresspass and commit his immoral acts.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:35:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: robin (#92)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

If, for the sake of arguement , the kids DID purposely throw a bottle at a strangers car, would you then hold them more accountable for all this? or would you still fault more of the driver who reacted?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Artisan (#94)

Actually this story reminds me of the one we had here a few years ago, about a man who chased 2 children into the street (one died) b/c they were throwing rocks at his car. You don't chase children or dogs toward a street, for any reason.

Again, there was no alcohol involved, a plastic bottle (empty?) thrown out of a car would have flown backwards into oncoming traffic.

Krell got 6 months for something (not 2 according to another report).

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Artisan (#95)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

No it isn't.

Even if it has been deliberate, using a car as a weapon is not necessary.

As I posted yesterday, all Krell had to do was take down a description and license plate #.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: robin (#93)

" .the state of the driver's mind due to being chased"

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it. Why would they stop,

the man chasing at high speed wasn't going to be interested in just talking it out and for all

they knew he was armed.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: castletrash (#98)

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it.

If they did then Austin wouldn't be in jail right now convicted of two felonies.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: RickyJ (#99)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:50:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: castletrash, rickyj (#98)

their would be nothing to 'talk out' if the stupid hoodlums had not lived their lives in a fashion that they thought it was cool to go around assaulting strangers for nothing. hence they died and are paralyzed. there is no escaping ther fact, they started, caused, and initiated their own demise. i have never seen a stranger and got the sick idea it was fun to assault or harass them for fun. have you? if not, that is why we're probably both healthy and alive today.

the dead and paralized idiots didn't know as much. maybe bad parenting?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: robin (#100) (Edited)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash.

He pleaded guilty. He knew he was guilty.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:53:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Artisan (#101)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers". No damage was suffered to Krell's vehicle.

There was no alcohol involved, and so far I've read nothing that states the plastic water bottle was thrown at Krell's car intentionally.

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Artisan (#90)

"........had no reason to feel guilty and run."

Fleeing doesn't mean guilt, just exiting a bad situation. Road rage often involves imaginary

slights and gunplay. And chasing a lone woman down has its own set of fears. A minor fender bender

between a lone woman , and a man who stopped short in front of her, is sometimes the first step to a

rape.Your wife was right to call 911, and would not be wrong to flee the situation.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: robin (#100)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why

a chase must be reciproal. I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason, theyd never seen them before and had no reason to fear or run. it would merely be a bad rear end accident, with the potential chaser hitting a parked car.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason,

Being chased down by some unknown who won't pass is a good enough reason to flee for most people.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:02:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: robin (#103)

alcohol or lack of it is irrelevent to me here. If the teens in fact had thrown anything at any moving car, which you conceded may have been purposeful, that is indeed assault, it is illegal,. and is an attack on a person or their property. even if it were mere littering in traffic, while potentially minor, that is also a commission of a purposeful crime.

anytime someone throws anything at a moving car death can very easily result. I agree with the govt that it is a very serious crime and should be treated as such. what do you think would happen if someone threw a water bottle at a cop car? theyd probably unload their service revolver on the thrower and claim their life was endangered.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: robin (#103)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers".

It is when it hits someone.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Artisan (#107)

A plastic water bottle that did no damage.

A road rage driver who chased a teenage driver to then run into a tree, leaving one dead boy and a paralyzed girl.

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature

You may believe in human nature but you don't know it. Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: robin (#103)

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

There is in the article.

"Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash."

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: RickyJ (#108)

A plastic water bottle hit someone's car doing no damage whatsoever.

Assault - In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person 1) tries to or does physically strike another, or 2) acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. Many states declare that a more serious or "aggravated" assault/battery occurs when one 1) tries to or does cause severe injury to another, or 2) causes injury through use of a deadly weapon. Historically, laws treated the threat of physical injury as "assault", and the completed act of physical contact or offensive touching as "battery," but many states no longer differentiate between the two.

By this definition Krell is guilty of assault. Maybe that's why he got 6 months.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: robin (#106)

I'm really trying to understand your position about this running/chasing/fleeing issue. for example say i'm in 7-11 getting a big gulp and someone walks up to me very fast. i wouldnt run, they would bump into me. there would be no chase because there is no context for it.

if i had pickpocketed their wallet, and they approached me, then yes i would run .

whereas if a total stranger had come up and hit me, and tried worse, i might run because that would be an attack. there would be a reason to run. but their mere coming towrds me would not predicate a fight or flight response. this arguement boils down to, what would initiate a fight or flight response in someone.

something MUST initiate or predicate a fight or flight response,. That is what i meant when i refered to human nature above.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: robin (#109)

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

If they would have not run form him no one would have died. What were they running from? A lone man in a car? Big deal.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: castletrash (#110)

Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

Not really. That's called stupid in my book.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: RickyJ (#111)

You are referencing the charges against the teenage driver, there is nothing mentioned about any previous records for any of the teenagers.

He was the driver of the car and he was driving too fast. His mental state at having been chased was not taken into consideration, IMO. I believe Krell should be held at least partially responsible.

But there is no evidence that these teenagers were ever "bad kids".

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: RickyJ (#115)

How poetic.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: RickyJ (#111)

what kind of justice puts a thrown water bottle on one side of the scale, and 1 dead ( plus a

handicapped kid ) on the other side of the scale. That bully needed just 1 win in his life soooo bad

that he chased down children. Pathetic.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:18:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: RickyJ (#66)

If the Judge didn't nip this in the bud then Krell could have been the next victim in this story.

To the contrary, I believe the harsh sentence on the father places Krell in more danger, as those sympathetic to the father would see the sentence as an injustice, and blame Krell for it. Instead of fearing one man, Krell may now have reason to fear many more.

As I said, Krell should be opposed to this sentencing and work to have it reduced. He would be most wise to do so, and a fool if he does nothing.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-03   13:19:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Artisan (#113)

A plastic water bottle that did no damage to Krell's vehicle is what started his road rage.

He chased the vehicle in front of him. They became aware they were being chased and drove faster to get away.

Why is this a puzzle to you?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: robin (#109)

I don't think the outcome of this was good, but we must look at what ron paul and libertarians in general always discuss, the initiation of force. initiation of force, and lets stay with your conceding that the teenagers very well may have initiated this conflict by throwing the bottle at his car on purpose. That is assault, if you dont think so, try tossing a bottle at a cop car. it is also immoral, in my view, as it is the uncesssary unitiated use of force against a completely innocent person minding his own business.

his REACTION to the completely unprovoked assault may very well have been out of line, as is my reaction to things at times as i have recounted. However, he did not initiate any of it, and holds the lesser of guilt.

I dont like mean people who pick on, harass, molest, and bother strangers. they are asking for trouble and will most likely, get it. most times bullies and harassers, who get fun out of bothering innocent people, deserve the fallout they get. these jerks got it in spades. do you think the guy who pled guilty that rickyj referred to will play games like this again? I doubt it. he is now probably a more conscious person.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:22:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Artisan (#121)

the initiation of force. initiation of force

How is plastic hitting a car force?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:23:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: robin (#120)

i am not aware of being chased unless there is a context or event that predicates the FIGHT OR FLIGHT response in me. if i am minding my business and done nothing wrong i would never 'run' like a scared jackrabbit. even the rabbit knows he is fleeing a specific danger, the coyote, who wants to eat him.

i contend it is not a normal reaction for anyone of any age, to run from nothing for nothing. hence the kids did not run from nothing, they started a conflict on purpose which they could then not handle the fallout. their reaction negates the arguement that they were innocent and unknowing.

otherwise we may have to agree to disagree on this one. ;-)

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:28:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: robin (#122)

plastic or anything hitting a car, especially a moving car, is force and is specifically illegal in CA. now you have me going to find the statute. throwing anything at a moving car is a potentially very easily deadly act, if not from the damage itself, from the reaction of the startled driver.

furthermore in a larger sense assaulting anyones body or property is the very definition of force.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Artisan (#123)

They were fleeing a car that was chasing them. I would too.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: RickyJ (#115)

"That's called stupid in my book."

OK,,just trying to say some of us, paticularly the young or female amongst us,

don't like to wait to see if were about to be attacked.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: robin (#125)

well if you threw something at a car and it chased you, it may be a good idea to flee the victim of your assault. if however youre minding your own business on the street or freeway, you wouldnt even know and could not possibly be 'chased' unless you were running, and had reason to know you had a reason to run. otherwise as i stated earlier in my 7-11 example, all it would be is a rear-end situation where some loon rear ended your vehicle. there would be no chase if you had no reason to run. it would be, driving along and bam, a rear end collision.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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