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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Grief Stricken Father Sentenced to Six Years in Prison (My Title)
Source: Toledo Blade
URL Source: http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 80301/NEWS02/803010412/-1/NEWS
Published: Mar 1, 2008
Author: BLADE STAFF WRITER
Post Date: 2008-03-01 09:07:05 by iconoclast
Keywords: None
Views: 1614
Comments: 139

Article published Saturday, March 1, 2008

Fackelman given nearly 6 years in home invasion

Sentence includes ban from Bedford Twp.

By MARK REITER BLADE STAFF WRITER

MONROE - A Toledo man who claimed he couldn't recall pulling a loaded handgun on the man he held responsible for causing the road-rage death of his teenage son will serve at least 5 3/4 years in prison.

At the sentencing for Charles Fackelman in Monroe County Circuit Court, Judge Joseph Costello, Jr., said the defendant's actions in the March 24 gun toting attack on Randy Krell and his neighbor were methodical and controlled.

"Everything you did that day demonstrates to me that you knew what you were doing," the judge said.

Fackelman, 47, was convicted after a jury trial in January on two counts of felonious assault, home invasion, and gun possession. He will receive credit for the 31 days he has served in the county jail.

At his trial, Fackelman took the stand and claimed he didn't remember driving to the Lambertville home of Mr. Krell, pulling a loaded gun, pursuing him to the home of the neighbor, Thomas Williams, and kicking down the steel door of Mr. Williams' house in an attempt to get to Mr. Krell.

Not guilty by reason of insanity was among the verdicts that the jury could have reached. Instead, the panel found Fackelman guilty but mentally ill.

Judge Costello imposed a two-year mandatory sentence for the gun possession conviction and added 3 3/4 years to 20 years to the punishment for the other offenses. Fackelman also was ordered to never enter Bedford Township upon his release from prison without the court's permission.

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

The car, driven by Austin Oberle, went out of control at a Whiteford Township intersection and crashed into a tree, killing Charlie Fackelman, the defendant's 17-year-old son, and seriously injuring a teenage girl.

Mr. Krell, a former Bedford Public Schools board member, was convicted in a jury trial in August of negligent homicide. He served about five months of a nine-month jail sentence.

Mr. Williams, who is an assistant principal at Dundee High School, and Mr. Krell were in the courtroom for the sentencing yesterday, but neither victim wanted to make a statement to the court. They left the packed courtroom immediately.

Fackelman, who was dismissed from his job with the U.S. Postal Service, didn't make a statement at his sentencing.

A day before the confrontation at Mr. Krell's home - and 32 days after the crash that killed his son - Fackelman attended the Whitmer High School baseball team's first home game of the season. His son would have been a senior and the team's starting shortstop.

According to testimony, the defendant acted strangely and stood alone at the game. Witnesses said he stared into the infield at the position that Charlie would have played. His wife, Janet, testified that her husband came home from the game, went to his bedroom, and cried himself to sleep.

Kenneth Simon, a Wayne County, Michigan, assistant prosecutor who handled the case, argued to Judge Costello that a message needed to be sent to discourage others from taking the law into their own hands.

"What would have happened in this case if Randy Krell had not gone to Mr. Williams' house? I think at the very least that Mr. Fackelman's intent was more than pointing a gun at Mr. Krell," Mr. Simon said.

Defense attorney Asad Farah argued for leniency and asked the judge to depart from state sentencing guidelines.

Mr. Farah said the tragic death of his son threw Fackelman into mental illness and he couldn't deal with the loss, causing unusual mitigating factors in the case.

"He needs help. He needs to continue on with his medication. He needs to continue on with his therapy," Mr. Farah said. "There is no dispute that he has a mental illness. The question is whether he will receive help under a prison sanction."

Judge Costello said that Fackelman put the victims and their families as well as their neighborhood in a state of fear, to the point that Mr. Williams became suspicious when a strange vehicle drove past.

"No one should have to live like that," the judge said.

Under state law, Fackelman will not be eligible to appear before the parole board until he serves the minimum punishment of 69 months.

Fackelman also was ordered by Judge Costello to pay restitution of $1,564 to Mr. Williams and his insurance carrier for the damage that he did to the home.

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#77. To: iconoclast (#72)

Oh no, robin, Krell "encountered" the crash on his hungry haste to get to Taco Bell.

And you know for sure he wasn't going to Taco Bell before this incident occurred? Yeah he was trying to cover up the fact he was chasing them, but he could have indeed been going to Taco Bell to start with.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:56:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: robin (#75)

No, as Pinguinite pointed out, they did not know who or why.

That's why they sped away? It takes two for a chase to occur. I would bet a million dollars they knew.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:58:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: RickyJ (#78)

All it takes is one enraged driver who decides to chase down a carload of teenagers he thinks intentionally threw a plastic bottle of water at his car.

One car that begins to chase the car in front, refusing to pass it; but maybe trying to force it off the road "to confront" them?

Oh yeah, Krell caused that accident. He's a monster.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:01:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: robin (#76)

Not much point in posting to someone not living in reality.

Because I don't live in California I am not living in reality? High speed chases occur here in Georgia all the time. They are not against the law in most counties here. Of course I am talking about the police chasing someone. It against the law for anyone else to go over the posted speed limit.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:02:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: RickyJ (#71)

you're 100% right. I have personal experience with this and while reading this thread i realized i have experience with this very scenario, twice. i lived in the mountains and was driving home one night when all the sudden i heard a loud CRACK. it was my windshield. and an approaching car full of hispanics, about 4 of them in the back of this pickup, and 3 in front, had been throwing what it turned out later to be eggs and rocks at homes, cars, etc. it turned out later that these guys had vandalized and caused thousands of dollars in damage and broken windows and auto windows in the mntn village. well i knew none of this until later of course. all i knew is that some POS had committed a felony on me, and i slammed to a halt turned around and chased them. the $#@! cowards ran like rats from a single white guy in early 20s. too bad i dint have cell phone, this was before the days of cell phones, i was also low on gas so options were limited. at one point once we got back to the city they stopped and got out of their truck. i leaned on my horn, awakening frightneed neighbors who peered out their curtains but refused to call police. i opened my door but stayed in my car and although i had no defensive tool or weapon on me, I yelled to them

DO IT %$#@!*&ER! COME CLOSER. WALK HERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS! ha, funny, not a one of them approached further,. in retrospect what i should have done then was hit their front wheel, knocked it out so that they could not escape. but i was literally on fumes then so i had to go get gas. i left them and went to the gas station and called the cops. they drove by the gas station, seeing me, but did not stop. 7 of them verses one? why did they not stop?

I presume their defenders here will blame me for driving home and not cowaring down to them, perhaps 'iconclast' thinks i should have apologized for disturbing their egg fest. lol. f--k them, you f--k with someody youre asking for trouble, and you very well might get it, and probably deserve it. that is the way i was raised. It is basic right and wrong, not complicated. people are so screwed up in their thinking nowdays.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:03:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: RickyJ (#80)

It's against the law to force a vehicle off the road in order to confront someone.

Krell got 2 months for something and it wasn't just for driving over the speed limit.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Artisan, rickyj, robin (#73)

breaching the peace and assaulting someone

I think I have a sense of your mind pictures now.

On one side of the scales of justice .... a plastic bottle, no physical harm to the adult, no damage to his "property", just a pressure on the "victim's" hair trigger psychotic temper.

On the other side a dead boy and a paralyzed girl. Perfect balance to the deranged mind.

Most folks, when they've dug a hole deep enough to hold two jackasses, have at least enough sense to stop digging.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   12:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Artisan (#81)

A plastic water bottle is not the same, and it is not known if it was thrown intentionally at a car, sounds more like casual littering than flew astray. They had no idea who was chasing them or why.

These are the days of cell phones.

Your experience was very different from Krell's.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:07:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: robin (#79)

Oh yeah, Krell caused that accident. He's a monster.

He made a stupid decision based on anger that could have led to his own death by the people he was chasing. At any moment one of the people in the car he was chasing could have shot at him. I don't see him as a monster. He didn't make anyone run off the road.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: iconoclast (#69)

Ask an aide to loosen your restraints and bring you some meds.

Iconoclast, come on. i dont know you and have dont remember ever posting to you. but, the fact that you get so emotionally wretched and launch a silly juvenile attack along the lines of something posted at freerepublic, to someone you don't know on a internet forum, hints that you, in reality, have little mental balance or health.

What would you do if you were driving down the street minding your own business and someone threw shit at your windshield, breaking it? would you cower down and apologize to them? how old are you?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:13:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: RickyJ (#85)

He didn't make anyone run off the road.

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them. It was called a Road Rage incident in this account:

Krell served six months and is already out of jail.

"Six years to six month is an incredible difference considering the results of their actions," said Eric Fackelman, family member. "Both people made a threat. One used a gun, one used a car. The end result with the car was death and maiming, and the end result with the gun was nothing."

In January, a jury found the elder Fackelman guilty but mentally ill of the charges. Attorney Asad Farah says his client is currently on anti-psychotic medication and fears in prison Fackelman won't get the treatment he needs.

"We have an individual who has a mental illness who has a psychotic break for whatever reason," Farah said.

...

The Monroe County Sheriff said that alcohol was not involved in the accident, but excessive speed did play a factor.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: robin (#84)

I don't buy the innocent story. but for the sake of arguement let's say that someone...... who throws trash out of a window of a moving car, anyway? that shows a sick mentality right there... but, OK. let's say someone was unconscience enough to do that. then the driver sees someone chasing him for no reason? i cant get away from the fact that no one can 'be chased' unless they flee, they engage a chase. why would a sane or innocent person start driving 85mph , fleeing some kook? a car full of teens could have defended themself, they could have drove to the police station if they were scared. what could the chaser do? ram them?

No, i believe their actions very clearly portrayed their guilt postion. hence i dont believe they were innocent scared children chased by a loon. just leave people alone, be peaceful and they would be alive. i never bother anyone, i leave people alone!! because they deserve it and so do we.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Artisan (#88)

A frightened driver would also. Krell wanted to confront them, not pass them.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:23:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: robin (#89)

If an angry or lunatic driver drove agressively towards me i would not flee at 85MPH,. the options are that the loon, who is acting apart from sanity, in other words for no reason, might rear end you or ram your car. This is very possible because, the more we post the more stories i remember. last year my wife called me and told me that some crazy man on the 405 did that very thing to her at about 830PM on a weeknight. he cut right in front of her, driving crazy, looking rageful and then slammed on his breaks right in front of her. on the freeway going about 65!

she was scared to death, swerved to miss hitting him, thank God, and she called 911. then afterwards she called me. she did not, however, accelerate to 90MPh and kill herself. because she was not guilty and was not fleeing him., had no reason to feel guilty and run.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: robin (#87) (Edited)

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them.

Which was a stupid thing to do but he did not cause the accident. If he would have caused the accident then Austin would have never been convicted of two felonies. This whole thread boils down to logic vs. emotion.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Artisan (#90) (Edited)

These were teenagers.

BTW, the sheriff says alcohol was not involved.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:31:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: RickyJ (#91)

As the driver, but the state of the driver's mind due to being chased was clearly not taken into consideration.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:33:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: robin (#89)

This story reminds me of the story a while back about the old man who was having his yard vandalized for the umpteenth time and went out and shot the teenager dead,. yeah, sad story and he was demonized and the poor teen angelic vandal was glorified and a shrine put up to him.

Did the teen deserve death? no, but he sure wont hinder or assault or damage an innocent stranger again who was simply trying to mind his own business. The dead stupid teen initaited the crime, and the use of force. he caused it all, it's all his fault. nothing would have happened if he did not tresspass and commit his immoral acts.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:35:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: robin (#92)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

If, for the sake of arguement , the kids DID purposely throw a bottle at a strangers car, would you then hold them more accountable for all this? or would you still fault more of the driver who reacted?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Artisan (#94)

Actually this story reminds me of the one we had here a few years ago, about a man who chased 2 children into the street (one died) b/c they were throwing rocks at his car. You don't chase children or dogs toward a street, for any reason.

Again, there was no alcohol involved, a plastic bottle (empty?) thrown out of a car would have flown backwards into oncoming traffic.

Krell got 6 months for something (not 2 according to another report).

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Artisan (#95)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

No it isn't.

Even if it has been deliberate, using a car as a weapon is not necessary.

As I posted yesterday, all Krell had to do was take down a description and license plate #.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: robin (#93)

" .the state of the driver's mind due to being chased"

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it. Why would they stop,

the man chasing at high speed wasn't going to be interested in just talking it out and for all

they knew he was armed.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: castletrash (#98)

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it.

If they did then Austin wouldn't be in jail right now convicted of two felonies.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: RickyJ (#99)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:50:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: castletrash, rickyj (#98)

their would be nothing to 'talk out' if the stupid hoodlums had not lived their lives in a fashion that they thought it was cool to go around assaulting strangers for nothing. hence they died and are paralyzed. there is no escaping ther fact, they started, caused, and initiated their own demise. i have never seen a stranger and got the sick idea it was fun to assault or harass them for fun. have you? if not, that is why we're probably both healthy and alive today.

the dead and paralized idiots didn't know as much. maybe bad parenting?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: robin (#100) (Edited)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash.

He pleaded guilty. He knew he was guilty.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:53:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Artisan (#101)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers". No damage was suffered to Krell's vehicle.

There was no alcohol involved, and so far I've read nothing that states the plastic water bottle was thrown at Krell's car intentionally.

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Artisan (#90)

"........had no reason to feel guilty and run."

Fleeing doesn't mean guilt, just exiting a bad situation. Road rage often involves imaginary

slights and gunplay. And chasing a lone woman down has its own set of fears. A minor fender bender

between a lone woman , and a man who stopped short in front of her, is sometimes the first step to a

rape.Your wife was right to call 911, and would not be wrong to flee the situation.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: robin (#100)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why

a chase must be reciproal. I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason, theyd never seen them before and had no reason to fear or run. it would merely be a bad rear end accident, with the potential chaser hitting a parked car.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason,

Being chased down by some unknown who won't pass is a good enough reason to flee for most people.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:02:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: robin (#103)

alcohol or lack of it is irrelevent to me here. If the teens in fact had thrown anything at any moving car, which you conceded may have been purposeful, that is indeed assault, it is illegal,. and is an attack on a person or their property. even if it were mere littering in traffic, while potentially minor, that is also a commission of a purposeful crime.

anytime someone throws anything at a moving car death can very easily result. I agree with the govt that it is a very serious crime and should be treated as such. what do you think would happen if someone threw a water bottle at a cop car? theyd probably unload their service revolver on the thrower and claim their life was endangered.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: robin (#103)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers".

It is when it hits someone.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Artisan (#107)

A plastic water bottle that did no damage.

A road rage driver who chased a teenage driver to then run into a tree, leaving one dead boy and a paralyzed girl.

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature

You may believe in human nature but you don't know it. Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: robin (#103)

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

There is in the article.

"Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash."

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: RickyJ (#108)

A plastic water bottle hit someone's car doing no damage whatsoever.

Assault - In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person 1) tries to or does physically strike another, or 2) acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. Many states declare that a more serious or "aggravated" assault/battery occurs when one 1) tries to or does cause severe injury to another, or 2) causes injury through use of a deadly weapon. Historically, laws treated the threat of physical injury as "assault", and the completed act of physical contact or offensive touching as "battery," but many states no longer differentiate between the two.

By this definition Krell is guilty of assault. Maybe that's why he got 6 months.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: robin (#106)

I'm really trying to understand your position about this running/chasing/fleeing issue. for example say i'm in 7-11 getting a big gulp and someone walks up to me very fast. i wouldnt run, they would bump into me. there would be no chase because there is no context for it.

if i had pickpocketed their wallet, and they approached me, then yes i would run .

whereas if a total stranger had come up and hit me, and tried worse, i might run because that would be an attack. there would be a reason to run. but their mere coming towrds me would not predicate a fight or flight response. this arguement boils down to, what would initiate a fight or flight response in someone.

something MUST initiate or predicate a fight or flight response,. That is what i meant when i refered to human nature above.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: robin (#109)

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

If they would have not run form him no one would have died. What were they running from? A lone man in a car? Big deal.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: castletrash (#110)

Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

Not really. That's called stupid in my book.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: RickyJ (#111)

You are referencing the charges against the teenage driver, there is nothing mentioned about any previous records for any of the teenagers.

He was the driver of the car and he was driving too fast. His mental state at having been chased was not taken into consideration, IMO. I believe Krell should be held at least partially responsible.

But there is no evidence that these teenagers were ever "bad kids".

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: RickyJ (#115)

How poetic.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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