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Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Grief Stricken Father Sentenced to Six Years in Prison (My Title)
Source: Toledo Blade
URL Source: http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dl ... 80301/NEWS02/803010412/-1/NEWS
Published: Mar 1, 2008
Author: BLADE STAFF WRITER
Post Date: 2008-03-01 09:07:05 by iconoclast
Keywords: None
Views: 1926
Comments: 139

Article published Saturday, March 1, 2008

Fackelman given nearly 6 years in home invasion

Sentence includes ban from Bedford Twp.

By MARK REITER BLADE STAFF WRITER

MONROE - A Toledo man who claimed he couldn't recall pulling a loaded handgun on the man he held responsible for causing the road-rage death of his teenage son will serve at least 5 3/4 years in prison.

At the sentencing for Charles Fackelman in Monroe County Circuit Court, Judge Joseph Costello, Jr., said the defendant's actions in the March 24 gun toting attack on Randy Krell and his neighbor were methodical and controlled.

"Everything you did that day demonstrates to me that you knew what you were doing," the judge said.

Fackelman, 47, was convicted after a jury trial in January on two counts of felonious assault, home invasion, and gun possession. He will receive credit for the 31 days he has served in the county jail.

At his trial, Fackelman took the stand and claimed he didn't remember driving to the Lambertville home of Mr. Krell, pulling a loaded gun, pursuing him to the home of the neighbor, Thomas Williams, and kicking down the steel door of Mr. Williams' house in an attempt to get to Mr. Krell.

Not guilty by reason of insanity was among the verdicts that the jury could have reached. Instead, the panel found Fackelman guilty but mentally ill.

Judge Costello imposed a two-year mandatory sentence for the gun possession conviction and added 3 3/4 years to 20 years to the punishment for the other offenses. Fackelman also was ordered to never enter Bedford Township upon his release from prison without the court's permission.

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

The car, driven by Austin Oberle, went out of control at a Whiteford Township intersection and crashed into a tree, killing Charlie Fackelman, the defendant's 17-year-old son, and seriously injuring a teenage girl.

Mr. Krell, a former Bedford Public Schools board member, was convicted in a jury trial in August of negligent homicide. He served about five months of a nine-month jail sentence.

Mr. Williams, who is an assistant principal at Dundee High School, and Mr. Krell were in the courtroom for the sentencing yesterday, but neither victim wanted to make a statement to the court. They left the packed courtroom immediately.

Fackelman, who was dismissed from his job with the U.S. Postal Service, didn't make a statement at his sentencing.

A day before the confrontation at Mr. Krell's home - and 32 days after the crash that killed his son - Fackelman attended the Whitmer High School baseball team's first home game of the season. His son would have been a senior and the team's starting shortstop.

According to testimony, the defendant acted strangely and stood alone at the game. Witnesses said he stared into the infield at the position that Charlie would have played. His wife, Janet, testified that her husband came home from the game, went to his bedroom, and cried himself to sleep.

Kenneth Simon, a Wayne County, Michigan, assistant prosecutor who handled the case, argued to Judge Costello that a message needed to be sent to discourage others from taking the law into their own hands.

"What would have happened in this case if Randy Krell had not gone to Mr. Williams' house? I think at the very least that Mr. Fackelman's intent was more than pointing a gun at Mr. Krell," Mr. Simon said.

Defense attorney Asad Farah argued for leniency and asked the judge to depart from state sentencing guidelines.

Mr. Farah said the tragic death of his son threw Fackelman into mental illness and he couldn't deal with the loss, causing unusual mitigating factors in the case.

"He needs help. He needs to continue on with his medication. He needs to continue on with his therapy," Mr. Farah said. "There is no dispute that he has a mental illness. The question is whether he will receive help under a prison sanction."

Judge Costello said that Fackelman put the victims and their families as well as their neighborhood in a state of fear, to the point that Mr. Williams became suspicious when a strange vehicle drove past.

"No one should have to live like that," the judge said.

Under state law, Fackelman will not be eligible to appear before the parole board until he serves the minimum punishment of 69 months.

Fackelman also was ordered by Judge Costello to pay restitution of $1,564 to Mr. Williams and his insurance carrier for the damage that he did to the home.

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#1. To: All (#0)

American Justice, circa 2008?

The hot-headed adult idiot got nine months, served five!

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   9:09:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: All (#1)

Epilogue.

Article ID: MERLIN_4539418 Published on July 5, 2007 Blade, The (Toledo, OH)

Justice is not enough to fill families' void

The car crash itself occurred in a split second. Stevie Beale, 18, can't even remember the exact moment of impact or the sounds of sliding wheels that preceded it.

But like the old story of a pebble dropped into a stream, the ripples of the June, 2006, accident have carried far beyond its initial impact.

A paralyzed girl, a dead boy, two now-convicted felons, lost jobs, torn families, accumulated bills, and a laundry list of emotional burdens have followed.

Through tragedy, the Beale and Fackelman families have become close, helping to guide each other through the aftermath. They now are attempting to steady themselves for recovery.

"I just have to let it go," said Charles V. Fackelman, the father of the boy who died. "I don't know how, but I have to, somehow."

His 17-year-old son, Charlie L. Fackelman, is dead. Miss Beale is paralyzed from the waist down.

And Austin Oberle, 18, a new Whitmer High School graduate, and Randy Krell, a former Bedford school board member, have been convicted of felonies for their roles in the accident.

According to witness testimony, Krell, 52, chased a car filled with teenagers through Bedford Township the night of June 15, 2006, after one of them threw a bottle of water at his car.

The driver, Oberle, then 17, went through an intersection and hit a tree, killing Charlie Fackelman of Toledo and severely injuring Miss Beale of Bedford.

Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash.

Krell pleaded not guilty, but a jury found him guilty of negligent homicide.

The jury's verdict last week was met by silence. There was some muffled whispers and weeping but no sudden healing, no applause.

"I needed to start placing faith somewhere and I put it in the trial," Mr. Fackelman said.

"I was expecting some sort of epiphany from all that, some life-changing moment, but it did not do that."

Mr. Fackelman and his wife, Janet, say they have lost something that cannot be regained.

"[The verdict] doesn't actually change our lives any," Mrs. Fackelman said.

"Maybe it's a little justice, but we've lost Charlie and we still have to deal with that on a day-to-day basis."

Mr. Fackelman is facing felony charges later this month for pulling a gun on Krell in March.

"There is still a lot more we have to go through," Mrs. Fackelman said.

Mr. Fackelman declined to talk about the pending case, except to say that he is getting psychiatric treatment and is working to get better.

When Mr. Beale first learned that Krell was the man who had chased the teenagers, it filled an emotional hole.

"It was a desperate feeling knowing the kids were being chased and not knowing who was chasing them," Mr. Beale said.

He said he couldn't sleep for months after the accident, and would instead drive around until the wee hours of the morning looking for the black Chrysler 300M identified at the scene of the crash.

"I get sick whenever I hear the name Krell," said Sheryl Beale, Miss Beale's mother.

The Fackelmans said they expected something more of Krell because he was the adult.

"I think it would have helped if he admitted his guilt," Mrs. Fackelman said.

"It would have shown some responsibility."

Charlie was just Charlie

Whenever a teammate needed to be cheered up, Charlie, 17, knew how to break the tension.

He was famous for singing the "Pina Colada" song "Escape" by Rupert Holmes on the Whitmer High School baseball field - which his teammates called "Fackel-daddy field," because he was always such a large part of the game.

"If you like Pina Coladas, and getting caught in the rain... come with me and escape," he would sing.

The red-haired, freckled boy who made everyone smile was the Panthers' pitcher and shortstop.

He was the older brother to 16-year-old twins, Jacob and Kelsey. And he was the last of an unbroken line of Charlies.

In the Fackelman family, a Charlie has been father to a Charlie since the beginning of the 19th century, Mr. Fackelman said.

But despite the distinguished line before him, there was no one quite like him.

"There were things that were Charlie-esque, but there's nothing I can say he's really like, he's just Charlie," said Matt LaPoint, the Panthers' baseball coach.

Friendship found

In seventh grade, Charlie wrote a note to his future self.

"Dear Future Me, 2007," the 2002 letter begins. "Hello, I'm writing to you because I don't want you to forget who you once were."

Charlie told his future self that going to college was nonnegotiable: "You're going, no questions asked," he wrote.

He also told himself never to forget his friends.

"You will need them and they will need you in the future," he wrote.

Charlie and Stevie Beale were best friends.

They went to the homecoming dance together, walked each other to class, and spent almost every weekend by each other's side.

They were part of, in their own lingo, the "CG" crew - cool guys, cool girls. And they were "SOW" with each other - so obsessed with.

Miss Beale's father, Alfie Beale, did not let her start dating until she was 16.

"They thought about dating but then they worried it would affect their friendship," Mr. Beale said. "But Charlie was definitely the boy I'd been waiting for to date my daughter."

The survivor

As a skilled trades millwright for Chrysler in Detroit, Mr. Beale's job was to fix the production lines when they broke.

"I kept everything running," said Mr. Beale, who recently took a buyout package.

Now he's using the skills of his trade to keep things running at home.

"You spend as much time with your kids as you can because in an instant life changes and not only because of a fault of your own but because of the choices of others," he said.

Mr. Beale recalls watching his daughter spray the lines of the soccer field at Bedford's YMCA the day of the accident.

"She noticed that there was a spot that hadn't been painted in the line, so she went back and filled it in," he remembered. "I was so proud of her that she paid attention to detail."

That, he said, was the last time he saw his daughter walk.

Miss Beale had five surgeries within 24 hours of the accident.

During her two-month stay in the hospital, she asked her parents to cover the windows with fabric so that she couldn't see the sunlight. She said the sun reminded her that she was unable to swim in her aunt's pool.

But she has since moved on from that early darkness and has managed to accomplish three of her four goals.

Her first goal was to get back to school. By the start of school on Sept. 6, she was back.

Next, she wanted to stand up for her prom photos. With the help of leg braces, she did.

And finally she said she would walk across the stage to receive her high school diploma. And again, the braces helped her along.

Now she wants feeling back in her legs so that she can walk completely on her own.

"Oh, she'll do it, buddy," Mr. Beale said recently. "She's a determined one, just wait and see."

Her growing independence and recovery are shown through the gradual stripping down of her wheelchair.

Miss Beale has removed her wheelchair's handles and taken off its "tippers" - a device, like training wheels, that prevents the chair from tipping over backwards - and she said she will soon discard the seatbealt that prevents her from falling forward.

Moving forward

Miss Beale goes to physical therapy five days a week "so I can remember how to walk, I guess," she said.

One of the programs she recently started is the Road to Independence Driving Program at Flower Hospital in Sylvania.

So despite fears of driving that have lingered after the crash, she is getting back behind the wheel.

"I feel like I haven't really changed that much," Miss Beale said. "But instead of being insecure about what I say, I now never forget to say I love you to anybody if that's what I really feel ... because you never know."

But she said Charlie surely knew how she felt about him.

"If you had a fake smile on, he could tell," she said.

She will attend Lourdes College in Sylvania this fall. Before her injury, she wanted to go to college farther from home, but "I probably would have ended up going wherever Charlie did," she said.

In terms of her emotions, the future psychology major said Charlie would be able to see right through her.

"I am happy, but yet I am still sad," she said. "I guess a lot of times my smile's not a real smile."

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   9:18:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: iconoclast (#0)

the bastard kills someone and he gets 5 months....the kids dad didn't kill anyone and he gets 3 years....American Justice....what a crock of shit!

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   9:18:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: lizza76 (#3)

the kids dad didn't kill anyone and he gets 3 years.

FIVE AND 3/4 YEARS

And leaves a wife at home with two other kids!

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   9:25:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: lizza76 (#3)

..the kids dad didn't kill anyone and he gets 3 years....

6, and no chance for parole during that time. Maybe early release for good behavior, but who could blame him if he didn't have a good attitude?

The justice system is in place to dispense due process punishment in part to satisfy the public's desire to see just punishment dispensed. Without it, people do take the law into their own hands. It's only normal and natural in any society.

In imposing such a huge sentence to discourage people from "taking the law into their own hands", the judge is instead encouraging people to do so, as the court has proven itself to be anything but just.

With this sentence, Mr Krell might be MORE fearful of personal retribution from friends of the kid's dad who blame him for this injustice. If Krell were a decent man, he would have asked the court to go easy on him, or not agreed to have charges pressed in the first place, maybe being satisfied only with compensation for repairs to his house.

The judge is a complete moron.

Having said that, having a water bottle thrown at your car is actually a serious matter. No one deserves to die or be paralyzed for doing so, but stopping and confronting such kids is very appropriate.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   9:41:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: iconoclast (#4)

FIVE AND 3/4 YEARS

thanks for the correction

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   10:09:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: Pinguinite (#5)

I can see paying for the damages he did to the house ect...I do not see how it is within the realm of reality to be an adult and have a half of a brain cell to chase some teenagers down for throwing a water bottle at your car. Maybe I am a more passive person, but I would think following them to their destination or even calling the police if you feel just in doing so (which I wouldn't) would have been better than chasing down some kids!

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   10:12:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: lizza76 (#3)

the bastard kills someone and he gets 5 months....the kids dad didn't kill anyone and he gets 3 years....American Justice....what a crock of shit!

From what I read of the story he killed nobody. The idiot driver killed his son, not the man chasing them for throwing a water bottle at his car. Maybe I missed something, I don't know.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   10:23:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Pinguinite (#5)

Having said that, having a water bottle thrown at your car is actually a serious matter. No one deserves to die or be paralyzed for doing so, but stopping and confronting such kids is very appropriate.

The dad seems to have gone after the wrong person. The driver of the car who drove into the tree should be who he is mad at.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   10:25:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: Pinguinite (#5)

Having said that, having a water bottle thrown at your car is actually a serious matter. No one deserves to die or be paralyzed for doing so, but stopping and confronting such kids is very appropriate.

I would feel like beating the sh!t out of them but I think reason would let me just forget it. As long as their was no damage to the car.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   10:27:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: RickyJ (#9)

The dad seems to have gone after the wrong person. The driver of the car who drove into the tree should be who he is mad at.

It seems the driver didn't know who was chasing them or why so....

There are lots of lessons here for just about everyone. The kids, Krell, the dad and the judge and the prosecutors for that matter. Throw the jury in too, though maybe they didn't expect a harsh sentence. Everyone pretty much screwed up, one screw up leading to another and another...

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   10:32:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Pinguinite (#5)

but stopping and confronting such kids is very appropriate.

The ahole chased the kids at speeds up to 85 mph on suburban two-lane streets.

Wouldn't a license number have sufficed?

I'd bet the aging yuppie had a cell phone on him, too.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   10:37:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: RickyJ (#8)

Maybe I missed something

Maybe I missed am missing something.

You sure are, IMO.

I was fully expecting some replies like yours.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   10:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: iconoclast (#0)

In college I was in the VW Bug of a friend when some idiot oollege students passed us and threw some ice and hit him. Wham, he turned around and chased them, ignoring my protests to let it go.

He pulled up next to them -- two boys in front, one guy in back -- and was shrieking at them (and also in my left ear). They just sat there and didn't say a word.

The girl in the back seat was screaming at us, "Why don't you pick on someone your own size!!!"

I burst out laughing, because Greg (the driver) is 5'6".

A word of advice -- don't throw anything at a car. You never know what the person who is hit is going to do.

Later, Greg told me, "When I caught them, I realized I didn't know what I was going to do with them." So he just yelled.

I think I still have hearing problems in my left ear.

When seconds count, the police are only minutes away.

YertleTurtle  posted on  2008-03-01   10:42:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: iconoclast. the thread (#2)

What a horrible story - who benefits by incarcerating Charlie's father?

Join the Ron Paul Revolution
Freedom*Peace*Prosperity

Lod  posted on  2008-03-01   10:43:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: iconoclast (#12)

The ahole chased the kids at speeds up to 85 mph on suburban two-lane streets.

Wouldn't a license number have sufficed?

Well, I said "stopping them" was appropriate. Chasing them is another matter, certainly at those speeds and in those conditions.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   10:45:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: lodwick (#15)

What a horrible story - who benefits by incarcerating Charlie's father?

Certainly not Krell, who might now fear retribution by the dad's sympathizers. If I were him, I'd have opposed such a sentence and work hard to have it reduced. Otherwise, I'd be moving to the other side of the country.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   10:48:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: Pinguinite (#16)

Well, I said "stopping them" was appropriate. Chasing them is another matter, certainly at those speeds and in those conditions.

I didn't check to see if these details were included in my post, but Mr. Krell first told the sheriff that he "encountered" the "accident" on his way to Taco Bell. The weasel denied the whole thing for a while.

He and his neighbor buddy also showed up at the sentencing of Mr. Fackelman for their extra pound TON of flesh.

What a pair.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   10:55:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: Pinguinite (#17)

Otherwise, I'd be moving to the other side of the country.

Slim chance.

There were, of course, several stories prior to the trial and sentencing.

This weasle is one arrogant S.O.B.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   10:59:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: Pinguinite (#5)

The judge is a complete moron.

Kenneth Simon, a Wayne County, Michigan, assistant prosecutor who handled the case, argued to Judge Costello that a message needed to be sent to discourage others from taking the law into their own hands.

The prosecutor recused himself from the case. I haven't been able to ascertain why, but I find it interesting.

Judge Costello imposed a two-year mandatory sentence for the gun possession conviction and added 3 3/4 years to 20 years to the punishment for the other offenses. Fackelman also was ordered to never enter Bedford Township upon his release from prison without the court's permission.

Just two more arrogant bastards from the fascist ranks.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   11:21:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: RickyJ (#9) (Edited)

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

You're right. The father should blame the kid who threw the bottle at Krell's car and the driver who crashed the vehicle during their "getaway", not Krell. It must be terrible for any parent to lose a child, but I can't get worked up crying over a bunch of vandalizing brats.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   12:25:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: lizza76 (#3)

A paralyzed girl, a dead boy,

And left a teenage girl paralyzed for life

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   12:59:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: lodwick (#15)

What a horrible story - who benefits by incarcerating Charlie's father?

Good point

Leaving a mother and her two children left to deal with the loss of a son/sibling and then the husband/father! Yeah that is the way to do it!

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   13:59:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: lizza76 (#23)

He should be fined for the damage he caused and be ordered counseling and a restraining order.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   14:00:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#21)

You're right. The father should blame the kid who threw the bottle at Krell's car and the driver who crashed the vehicle during their "getaway", not Krell. It must be terrible for any parent to lose a child, but I can't get worked up crying over a bunch of vandalizing brats.

seems to me there are many people who are to blame in this situation....but the facts are the ADULT in the situation didn't handle himself as an adult should. Kids are going to do stupid crap...and they should be taught a lesson for what stupidity they pull.....but chasing them down isn't the way to do it. No the kid shouldn't have taken off like he did and drove erratically...that is a given...but when you were a kid what would you have done?

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   14:03:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: lizza76 (#25)

The point is that Krell is not a murderer, nor is he guilty of manslaughter. Even charging him for reckless endangerment is a stretch. The kids threw a bottle at his car, he wanted to confront them. The brats sped off and crashed their car. How is Krell to blame for their deaths and injuries?

but when you were a kid what would you have done?

When I was a kid, I didn't throw things at people's cars.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   14:07:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#26)

When I was a kid, I didn't throw things at people's cars.

neither did I but not everyone was raised as well as we were

Killing One Person Is Murder...Killing 100,000 is Foreign Policy!

lizza76  posted on  2008-03-01   14:09:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Pinguinite (#5)

In imposing such a huge sentence to discourage people from "taking the law into their own hands", the judge is instead encouraging people to do so, as the court has proven itself to be anything but just.

This only backs up a conclusion I came to a year ago. If you must take the law into your own hands to right and wrong and the police show up afterwards to try to arrest you, shoot them too.

If they wish to die defending such an unjust and corrupt system, they asked for it.

"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me.

"If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.

Pissed Off Janitor  posted on  2008-03-01   14:52:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: iconoclast (#13)

I was fully expecting some replies like yours.

Logical VS. emotional.

If the dad would have used logic instead of emotion then he wouldn't be in jail right now.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   15:31:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: RickyJ (#29)

What you missed is, the man who intentionally caused the accident that killed one teenager and paralyzed another got 2 months in jail.

The father of the boy who was killed in the accident invaded and damaged the home of the man who intentionally caused the accident; he gets 6 years in prison.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:35:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: robin (#30) (Edited)

What you missed is, the man who intentionally caused the accident that killed one teenager and paralyzed another got 2 months in jail.

The man who had his car vandalized by a bunch of teenage hoodlums tried to confront them. They drove off at full speed, he chased after them. They wrecked their car in the process, killing one and paralyzing another. This makes Mr. Krell a "muderer" in the eyes of the parents and many people on this thread for some mysterious reason.

Personally, I feel zero sympathy for those brats. If the parents want to blame anybody, they should blame whoever drove the car that crashed, whoever tossed the bottle, and themselves for raising a bunch of stupid troublemakers.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:42:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: robin (#30) (Edited)

What you missed is, the man who intentionally caused the accident that killed one teenager and paralyzed another got 2 months in jail.

That man wasn't Krell, it was Austin Oberle. Yeah, he shouldn't have chased them like that, but he wasn't responsible for anyone's death. The father as well as many posters on this thread are using emotion over logic, just as Krell did by chasing the car of teenagers.

No one intentionally caused this accident. If accidents were intentional then they wouldn't be accidents.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   15:46:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#31)

A car can be used like a weapon. They are teenagers, he is supposedly the adult.

The father of the boy who was killed in the accident invaded and damaged the home of the man who intentionally caused the accident; he gets 6 years in prison.

So you think that Krell getting 2 months and this guy getting 6 years is justice? Maybe this distraught father was just trying to "confront" Krell in his home.

No one should play games with cars, certainly not adults.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:46:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: RickyJ (#32)

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

Krell caused the accident, he intentionally chased kids in his car and caused the teenage driver to have a serious accident that killed one and paralyzed another.

I drive SoCal freeways all the time. The driver of a car that crashes is often NOT the cause of an accident.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:48:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: robin (#33)

They are teenagers, he is supposedly the adult.

Using this logic, should teenagers be given drivers licenses to begin with if they aren't held responsible for their actions on the road? "Kids will be kids" shouldn't fly.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:50:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#35)

They sure as hell should not be chased - over a plastic water bottle.

All he had to do was take down a description of the car and maybe the car's license plate.

There had been no damage to his car from a plastic water bottle.

He is a bully and an ass, and now he must live knowing he caused the death of one young passenger and left another paralyzed for life.

Both families of the injured/dead should sue him in civil court.

He caused the accident by chasing the car they were in, over a plastic water bottle.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   15:54:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: robin (#34) (Edited)

The driver of a car that crashes is often NOT the cause of an accident.

He ran into a tree. How could that not be the driver's fault? If Krell ran them off the road then they hit the tree there would be some evidence of that. If there were evidence of that then Austin surely would have spoke up and said so at his trial, he didn't.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   15:59:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: RickyJ (#37)

Do you drive?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   16:00:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: robin (#38)

Do you drive?

Not into trees.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   16:00:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: RickyJ (#39)

I guess no one ever chased you at a high speed.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   16:01:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: robin (#36) (Edited)

Chances are the young hooligans made a hobby out of joyriding every night and throwing things at passers-by from their windows. And they probably added smashing up mailboxes, spraypainting walls, and shoplifting to their fun.

The world won't be any poorer a place without them.

Rupert_Pupkin  posted on  2008-03-01   16:04:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#41)

You just won the despicable post of the day.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-01   16:06:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: robin (#36)

All he had to do was take down a description of the car and maybe the car's license plate.

Yes, but Mr. Krell apparently wanted to take the law into his own hands....

So ironic, isn't it?

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   16:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: RickyJ (#37) (Edited)

If Krell ran them off the road then they hit the tree there would be some evidence of that. If there were evidence of that then Austin surely would have spoke up and said so at his trial, he didn't.

Many details are not posted here, but I think it was mentioned that the kid driving the car did not know who was chasing them or (more importantly) why. If you found an agressive driver trying to run you off the road, what would you do?

As I mentioned, everybody in this story screwed up, and for the most part, each screw up was worst than the previous.

And all considered, it's the father who has the best excuse for his screw-up.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   16:37:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Pinguinite (#44)

Many details are not posted here, but I think it was mentioned that the kid driving the car did not know who was chasing them or (more importantly) why.

I don't buy that Austin didn't know why the person in the car was chasing them. Surely someone in the car told them that he should take off becasue the car they just hit with a bottle was turning around to come after them. If not then he would have not even tried to get away. Austin was just covering his ass here IMO. He knew he was in some big trouble and wanted to say and do everything he could to get a smaller jail term.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   16:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: Pinguinite (#44)

f you found an agressive driver trying to run you off the road, what would you do?

Yeah, but there was no evidence presented that indicated that was the case. Even Austin who had the most to gain by saying this didn't say it.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-01   16:48:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: lizza76 (#25) (Edited)

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   16:56:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: lizza76 (#25)

No the kid shouldn't have taken off like he did and drove erratically..

The kid was driving straight at a speed of 80-85 mph (wondering I'm sure what kind of madman was chasing him).... toward a T-butted intersection but couldn't stop in time and ran through the intersection hitting a tree square on.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:05:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#26)

When I was a kid, I didn't throw things at people's cars.

More than a few of us here were probably not such self-approving goody-goodies.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:06:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: RickyJ (#29)

If the dad would have used logic instead of emotion then he wouldn't be in jail right now.

There is no polite reply for such as you.

Who would try?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:09:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#31) (Edited)

vandalized?

There was absolutely no damage to this "adult's" auto.

Personally, I feel zero sympathy for those brats.

You are truly and odd piece of work.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:15:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#31)

They drove off at full speed, he chased after them.

That's a precisely a bass-ackwards assumption.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:18:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: robin (#33)

Maybe this distraught father was just trying to "confront" Krell in his home.

Perhaps the "perfect" little martinets herein neglected to note that this bereaved, half crazed father never fired a shot.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:27:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#35) (Edited)

"Kids will be kids" shouldn't fly.

"ADULTS SHOULD BE ADULTS", SHOULD FLY!

Some of us poor souls here were not hatched fully mature.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: robin (#36)

He is a bully and an ass, and now he must live knowing he caused the death of one young passenger and left another paralyzed for life.

He is conscienceless and arrogant ... witness his appearance at the sentencing.

He may be posting here?

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:32:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#41)

Chances are the young hooligans made a hobby out of joyriding every night and throwing things at passers-by from their windows.a

Ah, you are prescient as well as God-like.

These are good kids from good families.

I happen to be very slightly acquainted with one of the fathers.

You're making a complete jackass of yourself .... give it a rest.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:36:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Pinguinite (#44)

And all considered, it's the father who has the best excuse for his screw-up.

Yes, he was least guilty and most punished.

Bless you for your good sense and humanity.

When you get right down to it it was all about the unfired gun.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:41:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: RickyJ (#45)

Too much silliness to quote.

Please consider any of my comments directed to Mr. Pup-kin to apply to you also.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   17:43:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: RickyJ (#29)

If the dad would have used logic instead of emotion then he wouldn't be in jail right now.

That's kindof a tough thing to tell a dad whose son was killed.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-01   18:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: RickyJ (#29)

If the dad would have used logic instead of emotion then he wouldn't be in jail right now.

And if the dog hadn't stopped to shit he'd have caught the rabbit.

You're an imbecile.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-01   21:32:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: iconoclast, robin (#0)

Mr. Krell, 52, was released from the county jail Feb. 20 for the sentence he received for chasing after a carload of teenagers in June, 2006, after one of them tossed a water bottle at his car.

The car, driven by Austin Oberle, went out of control at a Whiteford Township intersection and crashed into a tree, killing Charlie Fackelman, the defendant's 17-year-old son, and seriously injuring a teenage girl.

Krell did nothing wrong, and the dead 'Fackelman' shouldn't have b een stupid enough to throw shit ar a strangers moving car, which in CA i believe is a felony. the idiot fackelman father, who raised a stupid son, deserves to be in prison for attacking an innocent guy. if his son were alive he should be in prison. the father is lucky that krell did noty cap him for a completely unjustified attack. The mentality of the fackelman father illustrates why his son is dead and he is in prison. they should have just lived peacefully and left other people the hell alone.

I once had people throw shit at my moving car and chased them down. they were scared shitless and would guess they wou ld not do that again to a complete stranger.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-01   22:29:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Artisan (#61)

Peace be with you.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-02   8:12:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: iconoclast (#62)

Peace be with you.

Thanks, but wait a minute,, let's spell this all out intelligently

The dead Fackleman boy, (dead as a result of his own reckless driving), who attacked a peaceful citizen who was minding his own business, would not be dead today if he had not initiated terroristic assaults. and then his loon father, who was supposedly 'outraged' that a peaceful citizen 'had the gall' to react to an attack by the junior fackleman, in an extremely schizophrenic move, reacted himself.. the very thing he was supposedly outraged about. his attempt to murder someone who his son attacked showes 2 thing:

he feels no guilt or responsibility for raising a reckless bully son. and

2. he deserves to be locked up, and is about the furthest from a 'peaceul innocent victim' as one can get.

You seem to contend that one who normally reacts to an attack from a stranger is 'bad and unpeaceul' but yet the one initiating the attacks are somehow innocent victims? why? Time to rethink this.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   10:40:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: All (#61)

they should have just lived peacefully and left other people the hell alone.

If the fackleman's had been peaceful people who respected others peace and property, the fackleman father and son would not be in prison and dead, respectively. very simple concept

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   10:44:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: Artisan (#63) (Edited)

The dead Fackleman boy, (dead as a result of his own reckless driving)

He wasn't the driver, neither was the now paralyzed teenage girl.

Krell took the law into his own hands over a plastic water bottle that hit his car causing no damage. The car was full of teenagers, one of them threw it out of the car.

Krell chased a carload of teenagers at high speed, until they crashed, killing one and paralyzing another. He got 2 months.

The dead boy's father caused damage to Krell's home, and he got 6 years.

I should add, as Pinguinite pointed out above, the teenagers did not even know who was chasing them or why.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   11:26:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: Pinguinite (#59) (Edited)

That's kind of a tough thing to tell a dad whose son was killed.

Why? Should he have a license to terrorize whomever he chooses just becasue his son was in an accident?

Krell didn't cause the accident and had every right to try to confront these people who were throwing objects at other cars. He didn't necessarily know they were teenagers. And it was just him vs. a whole car of teenagers. They would have whipped his ass if they would have stopped and confronted him. Krell was not using logic or he wouldn't have went after them. The Father also is not using logic by blaming the death of his son on an angry motorist. No one was using logic in this story or it wouldn't have ended so tragically. If the Judge didn't nip this in the bud then Krell could have been the next victim in this story.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:34:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: RickyJ (#66)

Krell didn't cause the accident and had every right to try to confront these people who were throwing objects at other cars.

BULLSHIT!!!

He chased them at a high speed until they crashed! The teenagers did not even know why they were being chased. Someone in the car threw out a plastic water bottle that hit Krell's car. They probably never knew the bottle hit anything.

No one has the right to chase a carload of people at high speed. Krell took the law into his own hands, and in so doing caused the death of one teenager and paralyzed a girl.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   11:38:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: robin (#67)

No one has the right to chase a carload of people at high speed.

Try telling the police that.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:41:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: Artisan (#63)

let's spell this all out intelligently

A most excellent suggestion.

The dead Fackleman boy, (dead as a result of his own reckless driving) ...

He was not driving.

who attacked a peaceful citizen who was minding his own business, would not be dead today if he had not initiated terroristic assaults.

The person that threw the plastic bottle was not identified.

he feels no guilt or responsibility for raising a reckless bully son

He showed a desperate, half crazed reaction to the death of his son ... a good student, popular with his peers, and an outstanding athlete ... a son with his life snuffed out at the threshold of his life .... few fathers would have simply shrugged this off as you seem to imply would be "normal.

peaceful citizen? Bereaved father was the loon?

Krell, the crazy bastard that chased a car full of kids through suburban streets at 85 MPH, is clearly the loon here.

one who normally reacts to an attack from a stranger

Maybe taking the law into one's own hands with a maniacal car chase is normal where you are, or belong.

Ask an aide to loosen your restraints and bring you some meds.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   11:44:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: RickyJ (#68)

It is against the law to chase a car at high speed until it crashes.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   11:44:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: robin (#67)

They probably never knew the bottle hit anything.

It takes two for a high speed chase to occur. If they weren't trying to get away there would have been no chase to start with. Of course they knew why the driver in the other car was coming after them or they wouldn't have tried to get away. He was only one man, they had a carload of people. Krell is guilty of being stupid, but he is not responsible for this accident. The idiot driver is for trying to get away from a lone man in a car.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: robin (#70)

It is against the law to chase a car at high speed until it crashes.

Oh no, robin, Krell "encountered" the crash on his hungry haste to get to Taco Bell. /sarc off

Lying weasel bastard.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   11:49:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: robin, rickyj, iconclast (#67)

when you say he 'chased their car'. there is no chase if the first party does not flee. the teenagers fled and chose to drive recklessly by their own fault, primarily because they were guilty of breeching the peace and attacking a stranger, for no reason, and they knew it.

Do i think that the chaser reacted appropriately? No, but he did not initiate this. when one attacks a complete stranger they are breaching the peace and assaulting someone, their peace and their property. that is stupid, immoral, and that is why they are dead. to contend that people must be milktoast cowards afraid to defend their peace and property is not correct.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   11:51:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: robin (#70)

It is against the law to chase a car at high speed until it crashes.

It isn't in most states.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:51:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: RickyJ (#71)

Of course they knew why the driver in the other car was coming after them or they wouldn't have tried to get away.

No, as Pinguinite pointed out, they did not know who or why.

But, they were well aware that someone was chasing them. That would be very frightening.

It is possible to litter, w/o realizing that the litter has hit anything.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   11:53:45 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: RickyJ (#74)

Not much point in posting to someone not living in reality.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   11:55:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: iconoclast (#72)

Oh no, robin, Krell "encountered" the crash on his hungry haste to get to Taco Bell.

And you know for sure he wasn't going to Taco Bell before this incident occurred? Yeah he was trying to cover up the fact he was chasing them, but he could have indeed been going to Taco Bell to start with.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:56:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: robin (#75)

No, as Pinguinite pointed out, they did not know who or why.

That's why they sped away? It takes two for a chase to occur. I would bet a million dollars they knew.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   11:58:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: RickyJ (#78)

All it takes is one enraged driver who decides to chase down a carload of teenagers he thinks intentionally threw a plastic bottle of water at his car.

One car that begins to chase the car in front, refusing to pass it; but maybe trying to force it off the road "to confront" them?

Oh yeah, Krell caused that accident. He's a monster.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:01:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: robin (#76)

Not much point in posting to someone not living in reality.

Because I don't live in California I am not living in reality? High speed chases occur here in Georgia all the time. They are not against the law in most counties here. Of course I am talking about the police chasing someone. It against the law for anyone else to go over the posted speed limit.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:02:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: RickyJ (#71)

you're 100% right. I have personal experience with this and while reading this thread i realized i have experience with this very scenario, twice. i lived in the mountains and was driving home one night when all the sudden i heard a loud CRACK. it was my windshield. and an approaching car full of hispanics, about 4 of them in the back of this pickup, and 3 in front, had been throwing what it turned out later to be eggs and rocks at homes, cars, etc. it turned out later that these guys had vandalized and caused thousands of dollars in damage and broken windows and auto windows in the mntn village. well i knew none of this until later of course. all i knew is that some POS had committed a felony on me, and i slammed to a halt turned around and chased them. the $#@! cowards ran like rats from a single white guy in early 20s. too bad i dint have cell phone, this was before the days of cell phones, i was also low on gas so options were limited. at one point once we got back to the city they stopped and got out of their truck. i leaned on my horn, awakening frightneed neighbors who peered out their curtains but refused to call police. i opened my door but stayed in my car and although i had no defensive tool or weapon on me, I yelled to them

DO IT %$#@!*&ER! COME CLOSER. WALK HERE AND SEE WHAT HAPPENS! ha, funny, not a one of them approached further,. in retrospect what i should have done then was hit their front wheel, knocked it out so that they could not escape. but i was literally on fumes then so i had to go get gas. i left them and went to the gas station and called the cops. they drove by the gas station, seeing me, but did not stop. 7 of them verses one? why did they not stop?

I presume their defenders here will blame me for driving home and not cowaring down to them, perhaps 'iconclast' thinks i should have apologized for disturbing their egg fest. lol. f--k them, you f--k with someody youre asking for trouble, and you very well might get it, and probably deserve it. that is the way i was raised. It is basic right and wrong, not complicated. people are so screwed up in their thinking nowdays.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:03:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: RickyJ (#80)

It's against the law to force a vehicle off the road in order to confront someone.

Krell got 2 months for something and it wasn't just for driving over the speed limit.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:04:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: Artisan, rickyj, robin (#73)

breaching the peace and assaulting someone

I think I have a sense of your mind pictures now.

On one side of the scales of justice .... a plastic bottle, no physical harm to the adult, no damage to his "property", just a pressure on the "victim's" hair trigger psychotic temper.

On the other side a dead boy and a paralyzed girl. Perfect balance to the deranged mind.

Most folks, when they've dug a hole deep enough to hold two jackasses, have at least enough sense to stop digging.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   12:06:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: Artisan (#81)

A plastic water bottle is not the same, and it is not known if it was thrown intentionally at a car, sounds more like casual littering than flew astray. They had no idea who was chasing them or why.

These are the days of cell phones.

Your experience was very different from Krell's.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:07:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: robin (#79)

Oh yeah, Krell caused that accident. He's a monster.

He made a stupid decision based on anger that could have led to his own death by the people he was chasing. At any moment one of the people in the car he was chasing could have shot at him. I don't see him as a monster. He didn't make anyone run off the road.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:11:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: iconoclast (#69)

Ask an aide to loosen your restraints and bring you some meds.

Iconoclast, come on. i dont know you and have dont remember ever posting to you. but, the fact that you get so emotionally wretched and launch a silly juvenile attack along the lines of something posted at freerepublic, to someone you don't know on a internet forum, hints that you, in reality, have little mental balance or health.

What would you do if you were driving down the street minding your own business and someone threw shit at your windshield, breaking it? would you cower down and apologize to them? how old are you?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:13:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: RickyJ (#85)

He didn't make anyone run off the road.

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them. It was called a Road Rage incident in this account:

Krell served six months and is already out of jail.

"Six years to six month is an incredible difference considering the results of their actions," said Eric Fackelman, family member. "Both people made a threat. One used a gun, one used a car. The end result with the car was death and maiming, and the end result with the gun was nothing."

In January, a jury found the elder Fackelman guilty but mentally ill of the charges. Attorney Asad Farah says his client is currently on anti-psychotic medication and fears in prison Fackelman won't get the treatment he needs.

"We have an individual who has a mental illness who has a psychotic break for whatever reason," Farah said.

...

The Monroe County Sheriff said that alcohol was not involved in the accident, but excessive speed did play a factor.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:20:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: robin (#84)

I don't buy the innocent story. but for the sake of arguement let's say that someone...... who throws trash out of a window of a moving car, anyway? that shows a sick mentality right there... but, OK. let's say someone was unconscience enough to do that. then the driver sees someone chasing him for no reason? i cant get away from the fact that no one can 'be chased' unless they flee, they engage a chase. why would a sane or innocent person start driving 85mph , fleeing some kook? a car full of teens could have defended themself, they could have drove to the police station if they were scared. what could the chaser do? ram them?

No, i believe their actions very clearly portrayed their guilt postion. hence i dont believe they were innocent scared children chased by a loon. just leave people alone, be peaceful and they would be alive. i never bother anyone, i leave people alone!! because they deserve it and so do we.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:21:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: Artisan (#88)

A frightened driver would also. Krell wanted to confront them, not pass them.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:23:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: robin (#89)

If an angry or lunatic driver drove agressively towards me i would not flee at 85MPH,. the options are that the loon, who is acting apart from sanity, in other words for no reason, might rear end you or ram your car. This is very possible because, the more we post the more stories i remember. last year my wife called me and told me that some crazy man on the 405 did that very thing to her at about 830PM on a weeknight. he cut right in front of her, driving crazy, looking rageful and then slammed on his breaks right in front of her. on the freeway going about 65!

she was scared to death, swerved to miss hitting him, thank God, and she called 911. then afterwards she called me. she did not, however, accelerate to 90MPh and kill herself. because she was not guilty and was not fleeing him., had no reason to feel guilty and run.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: robin (#87) (Edited)

He chased them at high speed with the intention of confronting them.

Which was a stupid thing to do but he did not cause the accident. If he would have caused the accident then Austin would have never been convicted of two felonies. This whole thread boils down to logic vs. emotion.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:30:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: Artisan (#90) (Edited)

These were teenagers.

BTW, the sheriff says alcohol was not involved.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:31:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#93. To: RickyJ (#91)

As the driver, but the state of the driver's mind due to being chased was clearly not taken into consideration.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:33:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#94. To: robin (#89)

This story reminds me of the story a while back about the old man who was having his yard vandalized for the umpteenth time and went out and shot the teenager dead,. yeah, sad story and he was demonized and the poor teen angelic vandal was glorified and a shrine put up to him.

Did the teen deserve death? no, but he sure wont hinder or assault or damage an innocent stranger again who was simply trying to mind his own business. The dead stupid teen initaited the crime, and the use of force. he caused it all, it's all his fault. nothing would have happened if he did not tresspass and commit his immoral acts.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:35:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#95. To: robin (#92)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

If, for the sake of arguement , the kids DID purposely throw a bottle at a strangers car, would you then hold them more accountable for all this? or would you still fault more of the driver who reacted?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#96. To: Artisan (#94)

Actually this story reminds me of the one we had here a few years ago, about a man who chased 2 children into the street (one died) b/c they were throwing rocks at his car. You don't chase children or dogs toward a street, for any reason.

Again, there was no alcohol involved, a plastic bottle (empty?) thrown out of a car would have flown backwards into oncoming traffic.

Krell got 6 months for something (not 2 according to another report).

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:39:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#97. To: Artisan (#95)

It seems your position is predicated upon the belief that the teens did not purposefully initiate the interchange.

No it isn't.

Even if it has been deliberate, using a car as a weapon is not necessary.

As I posted yesterday, all Krell had to do was take down a description and license plate #.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:40:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#98. To: robin (#93)

" .the state of the driver's mind due to being chased"

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it. Why would they stop,

the man chasing at high speed wasn't going to be interested in just talking it out and for all

they knew he was armed.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:44:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#99. To: castletrash (#98)

You're right. those kids had every reason to run for it.

If they did then Austin wouldn't be in jail right now convicted of two felonies.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:48:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#100. To: RickyJ (#99)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:50:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#101. To: castletrash, rickyj (#98)

their would be nothing to 'talk out' if the stupid hoodlums had not lived their lives in a fashion that they thought it was cool to go around assaulting strangers for nothing. hence they died and are paralyzed. there is no escaping ther fact, they started, caused, and initiated their own demise. i have never seen a stranger and got the sick idea it was fun to assault or harass them for fun. have you? if not, that is why we're probably both healthy and alive today.

the dead and paralized idiots didn't know as much. maybe bad parenting?

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:52:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#102. To: robin (#100) (Edited)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why (consider, even if one teen in the car had thrown the bottle deliberately - which I doubt - the driver may well have had no knowledge), you would have pulled over and asked the unknown why are you chasing me?

Do you really think that's reasonable? And these were teenagers.

Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash.

He pleaded guilty. He knew he was guilty.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   12:53:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#103. To: Artisan (#101)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers". No damage was suffered to Krell's vehicle.

There was no alcohol involved, and so far I've read nothing that states the plastic water bottle was thrown at Krell's car intentionally.

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   12:55:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#104. To: Artisan (#90)

"........had no reason to feel guilty and run."

Fleeing doesn't mean guilt, just exiting a bad situation. Road rage often involves imaginary

slights and gunplay. And chasing a lone woman down has its own set of fears. A minor fender bender

between a lone woman , and a man who stopped short in front of her, is sometimes the first step to a

rape.Your wife was right to call 911, and would not be wrong to flee the situation.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   12:56:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#105. To: robin (#100)

So if someone starts chasing you at a high speed, and you are clueless as to why

a chase must be reciproal. I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason, theyd never seen them before and had no reason to fear or run. it would merely be a bad rear end accident, with the potential chaser hitting a parked car.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   12:59:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#106. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature and reason would prevent any person from fleeing at high speed someone on a busy city street for absoluetely no known reason,

Being chased down by some unknown who won't pass is a good enough reason to flee for most people.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:02:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#107. To: robin (#103)

alcohol or lack of it is irrelevent to me here. If the teens in fact had thrown anything at any moving car, which you conceded may have been purposeful, that is indeed assault, it is illegal,. and is an attack on a person or their property. even if it were mere littering in traffic, while potentially minor, that is also a commission of a purposeful crime.

anytime someone throws anything at a moving car death can very easily result. I agree with the govt that it is a very serious crime and should be treated as such. what do you think would happen if someone threw a water bottle at a cop car? theyd probably unload their service revolver on the thrower and claim their life was endangered.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:04:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#108. To: robin (#103)

A plastic water bottle that may have been tossed out as litter is not "assualting strangers".

It is when it hits someone.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:06:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#109. To: Artisan (#107)

A plastic water bottle that did no damage.

A road rage driver who chased a teenage driver to then run into a tree, leaving one dead boy and a paralyzed girl.

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#110. To: Artisan (#105)

I believe human nature

You may believe in human nature but you don't know it. Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:07:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#111. To: robin (#103)

There is no evidence that these were bad kids.

There is in the article.

"Oberle pleaded guilty last week to two felonies resulting from his role in the crash."

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:09:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#112. To: RickyJ (#108)

A plastic water bottle hit someone's car doing no damage whatsoever.

Assault - In most states, an assault/battery is committed when one person 1) tries to or does physically strike another, or 2) acts in a threatening manner to put another in fear of immediate harm. Many states declare that a more serious or "aggravated" assault/battery occurs when one 1) tries to or does cause severe injury to another, or 2) causes injury through use of a deadly weapon. Historically, laws treated the threat of physical injury as "assault", and the completed act of physical contact or offensive touching as "battery," but many states no longer differentiate between the two.

By this definition Krell is guilty of assault. Maybe that's why he got 6 months.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:10:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#113. To: robin (#106)

I'm really trying to understand your position about this running/chasing/fleeing issue. for example say i'm in 7-11 getting a big gulp and someone walks up to me very fast. i wouldnt run, they would bump into me. there would be no chase because there is no context for it.

if i had pickpocketed their wallet, and they approached me, then yes i would run .

whereas if a total stranger had come up and hit me, and tried worse, i might run because that would be an attack. there would be a reason to run. but their mere coming towrds me would not predicate a fight or flight response. this arguement boils down to, what would initiate a fight or flight response in someone.

something MUST initiate or predicate a fight or flight response,. That is what i meant when i refered to human nature above.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#114. To: robin (#109)

If you think that's justice, we have very different ideas about justice.

If they would have not run form him no one would have died. What were they running from? A lone man in a car? Big deal.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:12:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#115. To: castletrash (#110)

Late at night, when driving alone ,

I won't sit next to another car at a red light if nothing is coming. I'll take the ticket over trust

in human nature. That's called "street smart".

Not really. That's called stupid in my book.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#116. To: RickyJ (#111)

You are referencing the charges against the teenage driver, there is nothing mentioned about any previous records for any of the teenagers.

He was the driver of the car and he was driving too fast. His mental state at having been chased was not taken into consideration, IMO. I believe Krell should be held at least partially responsible.

But there is no evidence that these teenagers were ever "bad kids".

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:15:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#117. To: RickyJ (#115)

How poetic.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:16:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#118. To: RickyJ (#111)

what kind of justice puts a thrown water bottle on one side of the scale, and 1 dead ( plus a

handicapped kid ) on the other side of the scale. That bully needed just 1 win in his life soooo bad

that he chased down children. Pathetic.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:18:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#119. To: RickyJ (#66)

If the Judge didn't nip this in the bud then Krell could have been the next victim in this story.

To the contrary, I believe the harsh sentence on the father places Krell in more danger, as those sympathetic to the father would see the sentence as an injustice, and blame Krell for it. Instead of fearing one man, Krell may now have reason to fear many more.

As I said, Krell should be opposed to this sentencing and work to have it reduced. He would be most wise to do so, and a fool if he does nothing.

Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-03-03   13:19:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#120. To: Artisan (#113)

A plastic water bottle that did no damage to Krell's vehicle is what started his road rage.

He chased the vehicle in front of him. They became aware they were being chased and drove faster to get away.

Why is this a puzzle to you?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:20:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#121. To: robin (#109)

I don't think the outcome of this was good, but we must look at what ron paul and libertarians in general always discuss, the initiation of force. initiation of force, and lets stay with your conceding that the teenagers very well may have initiated this conflict by throwing the bottle at his car on purpose. That is assault, if you dont think so, try tossing a bottle at a cop car. it is also immoral, in my view, as it is the uncesssary unitiated use of force against a completely innocent person minding his own business.

his REACTION to the completely unprovoked assault may very well have been out of line, as is my reaction to things at times as i have recounted. However, he did not initiate any of it, and holds the lesser of guilt.

I dont like mean people who pick on, harass, molest, and bother strangers. they are asking for trouble and will most likely, get it. most times bullies and harassers, who get fun out of bothering innocent people, deserve the fallout they get. these jerks got it in spades. do you think the guy who pled guilty that rickyj referred to will play games like this again? I doubt it. he is now probably a more conscious person.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:22:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#122. To: Artisan (#121)

the initiation of force. initiation of force

How is plastic hitting a car force?

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:23:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#123. To: robin (#120)

i am not aware of being chased unless there is a context or event that predicates the FIGHT OR FLIGHT response in me. if i am minding my business and done nothing wrong i would never 'run' like a scared jackrabbit. even the rabbit knows he is fleeing a specific danger, the coyote, who wants to eat him.

i contend it is not a normal reaction for anyone of any age, to run from nothing for nothing. hence the kids did not run from nothing, they started a conflict on purpose which they could then not handle the fallout. their reaction negates the arguement that they were innocent and unknowing.

otherwise we may have to agree to disagree on this one. ;-)

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:28:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#124. To: robin (#122)

plastic or anything hitting a car, especially a moving car, is force and is specifically illegal in CA. now you have me going to find the statute. throwing anything at a moving car is a potentially very easily deadly act, if not from the damage itself, from the reaction of the startled driver.

furthermore in a larger sense assaulting anyones body or property is the very definition of force.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#125. To: Artisan (#123)

They were fleeing a car that was chasing them. I would too.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#126. To: RickyJ (#115)

"That's called stupid in my book."

OK,,just trying to say some of us, paticularly the young or female amongst us,

don't like to wait to see if were about to be attacked.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   13:30:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#127. To: robin (#125)

well if you threw something at a car and it chased you, it may be a good idea to flee the victim of your assault. if however youre minding your own business on the street or freeway, you wouldnt even know and could not possibly be 'chased' unless you were running, and had reason to know you had a reason to run. otherwise as i stated earlier in my 7-11 example, all it would be is a rear-end situation where some loon rear ended your vehicle. there would be no chase if you had no reason to run. it would be, driving along and bam, a rear end collision.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:48:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#128. To: All (#124)

here is one mere example of one stupid kid who threw shit at a vehicle, tried unsuccessfully to defend his crime, was rightly convicted of a felony, and lost his appeal in court. Note that there is no need for intent on the thrower to cause serious bodily harm. The case referred to involving 23110 (Spence) referenced by the rock thrower invloved a firearm, but the case in this decision, was a rock. the larger issues involved in this thread are addressed.

The absence of a similar express requirement in section 219.2 evidences an intent to safeguard drivers not only from injury to their persons or vehicles, but also from distractions that could result in such injury. (See Findley v. Justice Court (1976) 62 Cal.App.3d 566, 572 [“highways are constructed and maintained for the benefit of members of the public who have an inalienable right to use them in a reasonable manner without obstruction and interruption”].)

http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/archive/B166776.PDF

4 Vehicle Code section 23110, subdivision (b), in effect at the time of Spence, supra, 3 Cal.App.3d 599 provided in relevant part as follows: “‘Any person who with intent to do great bodily injury maliciously and willfully throws or projects any rock, brick, bottle, metal or other missile, or projects any other substance capable of doing serious bodily harm, or discharges a firearm at such vehicle or occupant thereof is guilty of a felony . . . .’” (Id. at p. 602, italics added.) The statute has since been amended to omit from the offense discharge of a firearm. (Veh. Code, § 23110, subd. (b).) 8 throwing objects at a vehicle “with the intent to do great bodily injury.” Defendant relies upon the following statement in that case: “The Vehicle Code violation is limited to attacks aimed at vehicles or their occupants, but it does not require in its commission either the use of a deadly weapon or the present ability to commit a violent injury.” (Spence, supra, 3 Cal.App.3d at p. 603, italics added.)

Defendant argues that by using the term “aimed at,” the court construed “at” as adding to the crime the element of intent to strike or wreck the vehicle. The issue in Spence, however, was not whether the word “at” as used in Vehicle Code section 23110, subdivision (b) means “aimed at” a vehicle, but whether the defendant, who had discharged a firearm at a passing vehicle, could be convicted of both a violation of Vehicle Code section 23110 and assault with a deadly weapon under sections 240 and 245. (Spence, supra, 3 Cal.App.3d at pp. 602-603.) Thus, the court in Spence did not address the issue of intent under Vehicle Code section 23110.

Defendant also argues that section 219.2 requires a defendant actually to hit a bus. The statute contains no such requirement. This is in contrast to section 219.1, which requires not only that a rock be thrown with the intention of wrecking a vehicle, but also that such act “thus wrecks the same.”

The absence of a similar express requirement in section 219.2 evidences an intent to safeguard drivers not only from injury to their persons or vehicles, but also from distractions that could result in such injury. (See Findley v. Justice Court (1976) 62 Cal.App.3d 566, 572 [“highways are constructed and maintained for the benefit of members of the public who have an inalienable right to use them in a reasonable manner without obstruction and interruption”].)

---I. Violation of Section 219.2 Section 219.2 provides: “Every person who willfully throws, hurls, or projects a stone or other hard substance, or shoots a missile, at a train, locomotive, railway car, caboose, cable railway car, street railway car, or bus or at a steam vessel or watercraft used for carrying passengers or freight on any of the waters within or bordering on this state, is punishable by imprisonment in the county jail not exceeding one year, or in a state prison, or by fine not exceeding two thousand dollars ($2,000), or by both such fine and imprisonment.”

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   13:55:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#129. To: castletrash (#126) (Edited)

OK,,just trying to say some of us, paticularly the young or female amongst us,

don't like to wait to see if were about to be attacked.

If you are that scared of strangers then don't go out alone at night at all.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   14:05:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#130. To: RickyJ (#129) (Edited)

".. then don't go out alone at night at all. "

A womans best defense is the avoidance of trouble. For your information, there is a whole world

of women who work graveyard shifts and other odd hours, that puts them on the streets late nights

alone.

"..scared of strangers"

Too smart too be a standing target. Sometimes you got to know when to fold them, bye.

castletrash  posted on  2008-03-03   14:16:07 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#131. To: iconoclast (#56)

56. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#41)

Chances are the young hooligans made a hobby out of joyriding every night and throwing things at passers-by from their windows.a Ah, you are prescient as well as God-like.

These are good kids from good families.

I happen to be very slightly acquainted with one of the fathers.

You're making a complete jackass of yourself .... give it a rest.

A-ha. Now I get it. you know one of the hooligans fathers so that clouds all logic, and also, anyone who doesn't vandalize cars is claiming to be 'God- like'? Oy vey.

After your initial bizzare response to me and perousing more of your posts, I see you're a regularly nasty & bitter retired person. perhaps my first bozo on 4um. feel better.

"I don't know where Bin Laden is. I truly am not that concerned about him"
George W, Bush, 3/13/02 http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/03/20020313-8.html

Artisan  posted on  2008-03-03   14:27:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#132. To: robin (#116) (Edited)

You make these teenagers out to be poor little children being chased by a mean angry man. Krell may not even have known they were teenagers, and even if he did that doesn't make them little children. Teenagers can be just as big or bigger than an average adult so it is not immediately clear to anyone driving by them that they are teenagers. Krell wasn't thinking clearly by chasing down a car load of people that could have harmed him if they wanted to. They had already threw something at him and could have done more damage at any time. If these "kids" where really good and done nothing wrong they could have handled Krell in a reasonable manner, not by running from him. They never had to run from him. Krell didn't threaten them in any way.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   15:25:25 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#133. To: Artisan (#131)

A-ha. Now I get it. you know one of the hooligans fathers so that clouds all logic

You get it? LOL. That's beyond your ken.

I know know one of the fathers from having had him date one of my three beautiful daughters over thirty years ago. I know only that he is of a longstanding local family and is a responsible citizen. I'm sure wouldn't recognize him if I bumped into him.

So, congratulations, you get another Olympic conclusion-jumping medal to add to your collection.

I see you're a regularly nasty & bitter retired person. perhaps my first bozo on 4um. feel better.

I plead guilty to not suffering fools gladly.

I'm happy to leave it the considerable number of un-crazed 4-um posters to determine who is the bitter, sick in the heart poster here.

I'm honored to be bozo-ed by you. I'd be insulted to be otherwise by your ilk. And, besides, I get angry with myself when I'm goaded into responding to such.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   16:05:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#134. To: Artisan (#127) (Edited)

First of all, we do not even know if the plastic bottle had any water in it. However, we do know that there was no damage to Krell's vehicle.

People are usually innocent until proven guilty.

Krell was found guilty of something, he was given 6 months in jail.

It is possible to know you are being chased w/o the reason. Consider all the road rage cases on L.A. freeways.

If someone is dangerously tailgating you at any speed and refuses to pass you, then you can be sure he is chasing you. Also, if he tries to run you off the road or into a tree.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   16:26:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#135. To: robin (#103)

There was no alcohol involved

I have three questions troubling me at this moment.

1) Was Krell drug or alcohol tested? I doubt it very seriously since he stated at the scene that he "encountered the accident" and he was not charged until sometime after.

2) Why did the county Prosecutor recuse himself from the case?

3) Is Judge Costello an elected judge? I hope so, because unless the county is made up of a slew of Artisan's and rickyj's I'd guess his future is in defending scoundrels instead of persecuting victims.

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   16:28:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#136. To: iconoclast (#135)

1) Was Krell drug or alcohol tested? I doubt it very seriously since he stated at the scene that he "encountered the accident" and he was not charged until sometime after.

That could account for his road rage.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   16:30:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#137. To: iconoclast (#135)

1) Was Krell drug or alcohol tested? I doubt it very seriously since he stated at the scene that he "encountered the accident" and he was not charged until sometime after.

He did encounter the accident. As much as you desperately try to demonize this man it is not going to work.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-03   20:23:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#138. To: robin (#134)

Krell was found guilty of something, he was given 6 months in jail.

He served even less.

Here is more on this tragedy ... all available, although apparently inaccesible to those of the contra opinion on this series of tragedies (including, of course the outrageous sentence of Mr. Fackelman):

www.monroenews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?

AID=/20070817/NEWS01/108170049/-1/RSSNEWS

Two sentences, two approaches

One of the final chapters in a sad story played out in a packed, emotional courtroom Thursday.

Two people were sentenced to jail. One is Austin Oberle, a 19-year-old Toledo honor student who plans to attend college. The other is Randy Krell, a 52- year-old Lambertville man who has a family, a career and has dedicated much of his life to education.

Both were involved in a crime that led to death, injuries and anguish for many. Observers, such as Monroe County Prosecutor William P. Nichols, believed they were equally responsible. So for their roles, both were convicted of similar charges.

But for all the similarities in the case, the way they approached their involvement in the court of law was strikingly different.

The younger man pleaded guilty to negligent homicide and felonious driving, faced the victims and their families - not to mention a throng of media - and apologized, adding that he was accepting responsibility for his actions.

The other, who was convicted of negligent homicide, never looked at the families and directed his words only toward the judge. His back remained to the courtroom. He denied involvement from the beginning and during his trial in June told a story on the witness stand that neither the judge nor the jury believed.

On Thursday, the differences in demeanor and approaches cost Mr. Krell three months of freedom. Circuit Judge Michael W. LaBeau clearly was as impressed with Mr. Oberle as he was disenchanted with Mr. Krell.

"Mr. Krell has shown no remorse for his actions," Judge LaBeau said. "Mr. Krell told a ridiculous story ... bordering on the absurd. If Mr. Krell stood up like a man, the victims could have accepted this much better."

Mr. Oberle will spend the next six months in jail. Mr. Krell was given nine months. Both were handcuffed and led away. They also were sentenced to three years of probation.

Mr. Oberle also must peform community service.

It was the end of one story that began happily enough with a carload of good teenagers, who all are excellent students, athletic and good looking. They were out having some fun on a summer night and were playing pranks that eventually led to disaster.

A thrown water bottle, a passing car getting hit, a chase through darkness, a crash and then death and injuries. Charlie Fackelman was one of the teenagers in that car. By all accounts, he was happy, full of life, charming and had a great future ahead of him. He loved baseball and was hoping to teach it at the high school level.

He was the only one of the five teens in the car who died in the accident that June night. He was 17.

"There is a hole in our family," his mother, Janet, said tearfully in court on Thursday. "The anguish is extreme. Our family will never be the same without Charlie."

Charlie was shown in the funeral home last Father's Day. His dad was so distressed he reportedly snapped and went after Mr. Krell with a gun months after the accident. Mr. Fackelman will be in court again next week, but this time as a defendant.

On Thursday, he wore his son's Whitmer High School baseball uniform. The No. 21 and "Fackelman" were stitched on the back. When Mr. Krell read his statement in court, Mr. Fackelman turned around and faced the courtroom wall. Afterward, he said he turned his back to the court proceeding while Mr. Krell read his statement for a reason.

"He never faced us," Mr. Fackelman said. "It was typical of the whole situation from beginning to end. He never faced up to anything."

For Mr. Krell, the incident also has been a nightmare. He said in court that he has been stalked, attacked and terrorized. He has spent his life savings defending himself and remains concerned for his family's safety.

"I still live in fear," he told the judge. "This case has taken a toll on my family as well as myself. Nothing I can do will change what has happened. We all must move on."

For many, however, moving on is no simple task. Stevie Beale is another victim in this case. Bright, beautiful and smart, she has impressed the judge and almost everyone else who has come in contact with her.

Confined to a wheelchair because of injuries suffered in the accident, she always has maintained grace and dignity while on the witness stand or with the media. Many in court wore "Super Stevie" T-shirts.

"I prayed I would be like her," Alexa, her 12-year-old sister, told the court.

At the sentencing, Stevie sat in the wheelchair and could not hide her disdain for Mr. Krell, telling him that he should have known better. She also could not help but wonder about her one-time friend Austin, who she feels abandoned her.

In the end, she said, she lost her mobility and a friend.

"I began to pick up the pieces of my broken heart," Stevie said. "I'm serving a life sentence in this chair."

Now comes the final chapter for this group of teenagers and their families. Out of the glare of the media spotlight and courtroom, one family tries to move forward without a beloved young man.

A second is faced with years of therapy and the challenges of the handicapped world. And yet another must share time with felons and drug dealers instead of preparing for college.

Mr. Oberle, who drove at high speeds trying to flee the pursuing car that night, pleaded guilty to negligent homicide and felonious driving a day before the trial. On Thursday, wearing a striped dress shirt and white necktie, he faced the courtroom and addressed his friends, their families and a full courtroom.

"I'd like to apologize," he said. "I wish I used better judgment. I have taken responsibilities for my actions. I stand before you today as a man. I'm so sorry I caused all this tragedy."

In the back of the room, amid a group of people, stood Al Beale, Stevie's father. He said later that the sentence was fair. Like the judge, he noted the difference in the way the two defendants acted.

"I thought it was very responsible for an 18-year-old," Mr. Beale said. "He stood there like a man. He didn't cower."

Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot

iconoclast  posted on  2008-03-03   20:59:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#139. To: iconoclast (#138)

Thanks for this additional news coverage.

'He will make Cheney look like Gandhi.'
U.S. conservative pundit Pat Buchanan, imagining presidential hopeful John McCain in the White House.

robin  posted on  2008-03-03   21:02:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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