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Title: Democratic Senator Backs Televangelist Probe
Source:
Associated Press
URL Source: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic ... /03/12/national/a093337D80.DTL
Published: Mar 12, 2008
Author: ERIC GORSKI
Post Date: 2008-03-12 12:41:16 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 313
Comments: 26
(03-12) 09:34 PDT DENVER (AP) -- The Democratic chairman of the Senate Finance Committee has thrown his support behind an investigation of allegations of lavish spending and lax oversight at a half-dozen "prosperity gospel" Christian ministries. Sen. Max Baucus of Montana joined with Iowa Republican Sen. Charles Grassley in urging cooperation from four ministries. According to a statement from Grassley's office Wednesday, the four ministries have not responded to questions he posed in early November. Follow-up letters the two senators have sent to the three ministries that have refused to answer Grassley's questions give a March 31 deadline for turning over the requested information. A fourth ministry has indicated it will cooperate. Having Baucus on board is crucial for any potential bid to seek subpoenas forcing answers from uncooperative ministries. Grassley critics, including Creflo Dollar, one of the ministers not cooperating, have portrayed the senator as a renegade who has no real power because his party is in the minority. The follow-up letters do not mention subpoenas specifically, but express hope that the requested information can be obtained "without resorting to compulsory process." Some ministries have said Grassley's inquiries about private planes, oceanside mansions, board oversight and involvement in for-profit businesses should be handled by the Internal Revenue Service, but the latest letters cite the Finance Committee's jurisdiction measuring the effectiveness of tax-exempt policy, saying that role is distinct from the IRS job of enforcing existing law. "This ought to clear up any misunderstanding about our interest and the committee's role," Grassley said. "We have an obligation to oversee how the tax laws are working for both tax-exempt organizations and taxpayers." All the targeted ministries say they follow IRS rules governing churches. So far only one ministry, led by St. Louis-area author and speaker Joyce Meyer, has "cooperated substantially" and turned over information, Grassley's office said. Another, headed by Texas-based faith healer Benny Hinn, has indicated cooperation but so far has answered just five of 28 questions, Grassley's office said. Neither Meyer nor Hinn were among those receiving the follow-up letters. The follow-up letters were sent to Dollar and Bishop Eddie Long, both of the Atlanta area, and Kenneth Copeland whose ministry is based at Newark, Texas. All three have pledged to fight what they portray as an attack on their religious freedom. Some have expressed worry that private information, including salaries and the donors' identities, would be made public. The letters from Baucus and Grassley say the committee is willing to work with them to protect confidential information. A fourth letter went to Paula and Randy White of Tampa, who recently divorced and have said little publicly. Grassley's office said representatives of the Whites have indicated they will cooperate and their letter does not set a deadline for a response. While Grassley has emphasized he is not interested in theology, Copeland and Dollar in particular have questioned whether he is targeting the ministries' shared prosperity theology. That teaching says that God wants people to flourish financially and spiritually. The investigation has divided the broader evangelical community, with some worrying about the potential for stricter regulations on all religious nonprofits. Others praise it as an overdue check on a corner of the movement that preys on the vulnerable and thrives despite years of negative publicity.
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#1. To: Brian S (#0)
These mullets should be taxed just like the rest of us. That or I should set up the Church according to Lodwick.
Well, we do need stricter regulations on all religious nonprofits and it is an undeniable fact that they are preying on the vulnerable.
hey, Mugs, welcome!
Thanks Christine!
First let me say that I have nothing to do with, NOR do I wish to be involved with any of the ministers noted, and despise at least one of them. With that said, you really have to laugh at these jackasses in DC wanting to know anything about religion.......though the good Lord knows they all need it, and desperately so. And as to having Grassley conduct anything, what a joke......this dumsumabeach questions why these people need to ride in airplanes and limosines and uses "Jesus rode on a donkey" as being good enough.......thus dumsumabeach doesn't even know that in Biblical days, ROYALTY RODE DONKEYS. Horses were machines of war. And, just in case the dumsumabeach reads here, I'll let him know the car wasn't invited until about 1900 years after the birth of Christ. If the sheeple are silly enough to buy into the 'get rich' schemes, they are the ones that should be hauled before Congress- -to testify to the the extreme failure of the education system in this nation. Or perhaps the need for real government oversight and supervision of the opthamological industry. Or perhaps to push for "smart brain cell' cloning. Or perhaps government sponsored (yeah, right) courses/placards covering logic and reasoning skills. Bottom line is the government can't do anything to the rotten apples that God won't top come judgment day......heaven help these bums that lead the people astray. BUT, the truth of the matter is that these congregants should be reading and studying the Bible themselves and not just blinding following the good ol' merikan dream of 'getting rich quick and easy'. No where will they find what these people are teaching...unless they cut and paste like some keyboarders do! And just in case the dumsumabeach is still reading, God doesn't think much of those who take oaths using His name and then acting as though they are god! Get your own house in order!
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
With a lot of theses "churches" lately only the ones running them are prospering. When the churches were run by modest men, of modest means, and all donations used for the poor, sick and needy, I was all for tax exemption.But now the vatican has spent obscene amounts of money in its settlements. Scietology owns half the town it headquarters.Others build mansions for rectories.Enough, evoke everybodies tax free status, they abused it.
“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston
So dark the con of man.
everybodies tax free status, they abused it. No, not everybody did. I refuse to accept that the gubmint can decide who is or who isn't ministering the gospel. That is for me, as a congregant, to decide. Once more, we'll see the hand of gubmint reaching in to 'do good' and wind up FUBAR....it is the nature of the beast. We have a gubmint that has f'd up the postal system, the military system, the monetary system, trade, the agriculture system, the parenting system, the justice system, the health care system, the taxing system, the transportaton system,the immigration system, and now we're wanting them to 'do the right thing with religion? Yeah...........right. NOT!!
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
Tax free dollars are paying for scientology yachts and John travoltas airplanes, that bothers me.
"This ought to clear up any misunderstanding about our interest and the committee's role," Grassley said. "We have an obligation to oversee how the tax laws are working for both tax-exempt organizations and taxpayers." With the national debt a minimum $9 Trillion and climbing, Congress is way past due in that obligation as it regards the taxpayers being fleeced by that tax-exempt organization known as the Private Federal Reserve. People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. They ought to shoulder that responsibility they are responsible for, rather than looking for scapegoats outside their jurisdiction: "Congressman Louis T. McFadden served as Chairman of the House Committee on Banking and Currency from 1920 thru 1931. The following excerpts are from a speech which is now difficult to obtain from the Congressional Record, in which he addressed the House of Representatives in the midst of the first Great Depression, June 10, 1932. INTRODUCTORY REMARKS Mr. Chairman, at the present session of Congress we have been dealing with emergency situations. We have been dealing with the effects of things, rather than the cause of things. In this particular discussion, I shall deal with some of the causes that lead up to these proposals. There are underlying principles which are responsible for conditions such as we have at the present time, and I shall deal with one of these in particular which is tremendously important in the consideration you are now giving this bill. Mr. Chairman, we have in this country one of the most corrupt institutions the world has ever known. I refer to the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks. The Federal Reserve Board has cheated the Government of the United States and the people of the United States out of enough money to pay the national debt. The depredations and iniquities of the Federal Reserve Board and the Federal Reserve Banks acting together have cost this country enough money to pay the national debt several times over. This evil institution has impoverished and ruined the people of the United States; has bankrupted itself; and has practically bankrupted our government. It has done this through the defects of the law under which it operates, through the maladministration of that law by the Federal Reserve Board, and through the corrupt practices of the moneyed vultures who control it......." www.perfecteconomy.com/pg-accountability.html Furthermore, according to IRS rules, Churches can choose to be under the jurisdiction of Jesus Christ, where they belong, and not under the jurisdiction of this antichrist government. When they do that, they do not need to answer to this government about their finances, nor should they. The government wants a precedent to get their foot into the door in order to bring ALL the churches under their antichristian jurisdiction. It would be nice when churches wake up to the fact that America is the promised land for Christians, where Christians are the kings and priests of God, Rev. 5:9-10. Kings are sovereign in their own land. We are not supposed to pay them; as priests of God, they are supposed to pay us....ALL of us....check your Bible.
President Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act on December 23, 1913. History proved that on that day, the Constitution ceased to be the governing covenant of the American people, and our liberties were handed over to a small group of international bankers. - Secrets of the Federal Reserve by Eustace Mullins
Tax free dollars? How so? Most likely, whatever congregants give has already been taxed when it was earned. The gospel can be told on the ground, in the air, or on the sea.....you can even find Jesus going in bars. He goes wherever souls need him.
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
Totally agree. If the sheeple are silly enough to buy into the 'get rich' schemes, they are the ones that should be hauled before Congress... Yeah, I don't get it. Paula White ain't twisting any arms to get folks to throw money at her. She doesn't 'promise' any more than any other false hope merchant or the lottery. There's no coersion. Wait... this is more 'let's save them from themselves' gooberment overreach. I do get it.
Yes, you do get it. :)
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
Tax free donations thats how.You deduct your gifts to the church ,yes?
No, as a matter of fact I don't deduct what I believe already belongs to God for his purposes. I can't speak for what others do or believe.
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
They need to be laying asphalt in Arizona at $0.75 / hr for ten years and living in the sand. I have personally had it with these criminals.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" I think every church/religious institution in the country should be investigated to the fullest extent. I believe they should all be taxed @ 80% after expenses.
Hello Sir.
If a "church" is running under 501(c)(3) tax status, they operate on the whim of government, not God: "Most churches in America have organized as "501c3 tax-exempt religious organizations." This is a fairly recent trend that has only been going on for about fifty years. Churches were only added to section 501c3 of the tax code in 1954. We can thank Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson for that. Johnson was no ally of the church. As part of his political agenda, Johnson had it in mind to silence the church and eliminate the significant influence the church had always had on shaping "public policy." Although Johnson proffered this as a "favor" to churches, the favor also came with strings attached (more like shackles). One need not look far to see the devastating effects 501c3 acceptance has had to the church, and the consequent restrictions placed upon any 501c3 church. 501c3 churches are prohibited from addressing, in any tangible way, the vital issues of the day. For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church. LBJ was a shrewd and cunning politician who seemed to well-appreciate how easily many of the clergy would sell out." Source: http://hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm
"I am not in favor of making voters or jurors of Negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office..." --- Abraham Lincoln, 9/15/1858 campaign speech
Keep on Hon. You haven't nearly covered it. ;-)
Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot That's two successive home runs for you in this thread! (posts 5 & 9) If people are inspired by charismatic TV sharks and want to send them money, so what? Traditional, "govt approved" religions cannot deliver any "higher rate of return" when they promise salvation or sell paroles from purgatory than these "GAWD Loves A Winner!" sharks who promise prosperity to most who never grab the brass ring. If govt is allowed to decide what is or isn't a legit Christian denomination, then it will ultimately end up where any Church that offends Jews, Muslims, gays or vegans will lose their tax exempt status and approved dogma in the US will be as political as that of The Anglican Church, that officially recognizes the monarchy as blessed by G-d. Notice that Grassley isn't concerned that The Temple Of Set may be abusing the tax exempt status of a Church, so it isn't about Christ's message or the failure to minister to the poor and downtrodden. It isn't the dogma that upsets him but the financial empires that can be built through TV ministries. And, not all wealth-accruing TV ministers are the subject of the probe. If Pat Robertson and John Hagee wish to act as political King makers and beat the war drums for the neoGOP, well, that's evangelical Christianity at its finest! But, if some wish only to enrich themselves by selling religious placebos and they don't provide religious cover for bloody, American imperialism, well, those denominations are suspect. Let's begin by asking Sen. Charles Grassley why govt should decide what is or isn't an exempt religion within the meaning of the 1st amendment. (What criteria do you use and where is it written, Senator? I mean, we all know that an Iowa Protestant never breaks a commandment or a twenty dollar bill!) And, let's ask him if mainstream Protestants are jealously working behind the scenes through him because they no longer sell popular or profitable messages and their aging congregations are shrinking while TV hucksters' are growing. Former Chief Justice Of The United States John Marshall said, "The power to tax involves the power to destroy." Those of you who suggest that most or all churches should be stripped of their tax exemption should understand why the founders wanted religious institutions to be immune, that is, without the jurisdiction of govt oversight rather than exempt, meaning, they exercise a govt extended privilege. If you know this and still insist that churches should not be exempt then your problem is not with abuse of the IRS Code but with all religions, and you should make that clear in your posts.
If the big churches had opposed it then it would not have been done. But, the truth is, the established denominations saw tax exemption as a way to hold down upstart religions that compete with the old and crusty ones, so, that is why the Catholic Church and the Baptists and the Episcopals etc., did not organize against the change in the tax code. Had they done so then it would have almost certainly had failed to become tax policy in the US. In truth all of the old line denominations envy the monopoly of the The Church Of England and this was as close to that as American churches could ever come while tailoring the monopoly to share the spoils among several non competing religions.
I hadn't been aware of the regulations shortage. It seems that there isn't any church that someone doesn't scratch their head over. As far as picking the pockets of poor people, churches are small potatoes compared to state lotteries.
Success is relative. It is what we can make of the mess we have made of things. T. S. Eliot Noone222 and I have both listened to Dr Gene Scott on television for years and years. I was not around when he went to bat for religious organizations in California through the court system. I believe this was in regards to the state wanting religious organizations to supply the state with the names of all those who give/donate to the churches. Perhaps noone222 will correct me if I'm wrong. I think he was responsible for the Petras bill, as I've heard it called, being passed in California. He absolutely insisted that giving is an act between the giver and God--not man. I do know that his wife, who has taken up his ministry since he died 3 years ago, has sent info regarding this case to all ministers who have contacted the organization and requested it.
Turn your back on the sun and you only see the shadows.
Televangelists are con men and I'm speaking as one who worked, part time, for an evangelist from the the sixties through the eighties. We "regulate" those who con you in every arena except religion. I have nothing against con men nor "religion" but they have brought this on themselves by playing politics...and collecting tax money. Incidentally, Tammy Fae is the only one of the bunch who is a true believer. All of the others from Marion Robertson and Jimmy Dobson on down are in it for the loot and fame.
#2. To: Brian S (#0)
The investigation has divided the broader evangelical community, with some worrying about the potential for stricter regulations on all religious nonprofits. Others praise it as an overdue check on a corner of the movement that preys on the vulnerable and thrives despite years of negative publicity.
#3. To: Mugs99 (#2)
#4. To: christine (#3)
#5. To: Brian S (#0)
While Grassley has emphasized he is not interested in theology, Copeland and Dollar in particular have questioned whether he is targeting the ministries' shared prosperity theology. That teaching says that God wants people to flourish financially and spiritually.
#6. To: rowdee (#5)
"That teaching says that God wants people to flourish financially and spiritually. "
#7. To: Brian S (#0)
#8. To: Sam Houston (#7)
#9. To: castletrash (#6)
Enough, evoke
#10. To: rowdee (#9)
"we're wanting them to 'do the right thing with religion? Yeah...........right. NOT!!"
#11. To: Brian S (#0)
#12. To: castletrash (#10)
#13. To: rowdee (#5)
With that said, you really have to laugh at these jackasses in DC wanting to know anything about religion.......though the good Lord knows they all need it, and desperately so.
#14. To: Old Fud (#13)
#15. To: rowdee (#12)
Tax free dollars? How so?
#16. To: castletrash (#15)
#17. To: Brian S (#0)
#18. To: Brian S (#0)
#19. To: Ragin1 (#18)
“The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists.” ~ J. Edgar Hoover
#20. To: rowdee (#9)
No, not everybody did. I refuse to accept that the gubmint can decide who is or who isn't ministering the gospel. That is for me, as a congregant, to decide.
#21. To: rowdee (#9)
We have a gubmint that has f'd up the postal system, the military system, the monetary system, trade, the agriculture system, the parenting system, the justice system, the health care system, the taxing system, the transportaton system,the immigration system, and now we're wanting them to 'do the right thing with religion? Yeah...........right. NOT!!
OBAMA/WEBB IN 2008
The perfect is the enemy of the good. Voltaire
#22. To: rowdee (#9)
(Edited)
#23. To: X-15 (#20)
"Most churches in America have organized as "501c3 tax-exempt religious organizations." This is a fairly recent trend that has only been going on for about fifty years. Churches were only added to section 501c3 of the tax code in 1954. We can thank Sen. Lyndon B. Johnson for that. Johnson was no ally of the church. As part of his political agenda, Johnson had it in mind to silence the church and eliminate the significant influence the church had always had on shaping "public policy."
#24. To: Mugs99 (#2)
Well, we do need stricter regulations on all religious nonprofits and it is an undeniable fact that they are preying on the vulnerable.
OBAMA/WEBB IN 2008
The perfect is the enemy of the good. Voltaire
#25. To: HOUNDDAWG. noone222 (#22)
Former Chief Justice Of The United States John Marshall said, "The power to tax involves the power to destroy." Those of you who suggest that most or all churches should be stripped of their tax exemption should understand why the founders wanted religious institutions to be immune, that is, without the jurisdiction of govt oversight rather than exempt, meaning, they exercise a govt extended privilege.
#26. To: iconoclast (#24)
It seems that there isn't any church that someone doesn't scratch their head over.
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