[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help] 

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In

A Comprehensive Guide To Choosing The Right Protein Powde

3-Time Convicted Violent Criminal Repeatedly Threatened to Kidnap and Kill Judge Cannon and Her Family

Candace Owens: Kamala Harris is not Black Â…

Prof. John Mearsheimer: Israel NOT Going To Win In Lebanon

Iran to destroy all Israel gas fields, power plants at once if Tel Aviv makes mistake: Deputy IRGC chief

Army Vet Calls Out FEMA for Prioritizing Migrants Over Hurricane Victims, Takes Matters Into His Own Hands

Unemployment among 25-34-year-olds with degrees nearly doubles in 4 months

Silver breaks 13-year resistance, signaling potential new secular trend

Two Ukrainian officials found with $6M cash, yet Hurricane Helene victims struggle for aid?

Elite colleges shocked: Students "Don't know how' to read books."

Is Washington's 'high threat' volcano about to blow? Scientists baffled by record spike in earthquakes around Mount Adams

FEMA whistleblowers revealed a treasonous misuse of taxpayer funds.

Exposing how useless FEMA is in Asheville, NC.

Kamala Harris Admin ARRESTED a man for bringing a helicopter full of supplies to Hurricane Helene victims.

MSNBC brings on an anti-Trump impeachment witness, only to be stunned when he announces he's voting for Trump.

She escaped the religious sect she grew up in. Now she says Trump’s MAGA movement is eerily similar

Federal Law REQUIRES Car Makers to MONITOR You

Candace Owens: When are you going to address this, KAMALA?

Democrats Celebrate a Seemingly Impressive September Jobs Report – What They are Not Telling You

The Boiling Point – America Have You Had ‘Enough,’ Yet?

Shopping Malls Implementing Curfews And Teen "Waiting Zones" To Try And Curb Chaos, Theft And Fights

US Public Debt Grew $115 Billion A Day For the Past 3 Days Totaling $345 Billion.

Dramatic Footage Shows Tanker Blown Up In Critical Maritime Chokepoint As Disasters Mount For Biden-Harris

The Remdesivir Papers: Did Service Members Deserve to Die?

“My Blood is Boiling”: Furious Elon Musk Goes Off on FEMA for Blocking SpaceX Engineers from Assisting

“The Stench is Unbearable”: Dead Bodies Piling Up, FEMA Abandons NC Residents Amid Hurricane Helene

Cash and the Constitution

Disaster Relief (INSIDER) Tells Why FEMA Won't Let Citizens Help.

The $212 Billion Dollar Food ingredient poisoning your Brain

"Last Election EVER" - Elon Musk vs Mark Cuban: Billionaires BATTLE Over Dangers If Trump Loses 2024


Editorial
See other Editorial Articles

Title: Reverend Jeremiah Wright: Anti-American Or A Man Speaking Truth To Power
Source: Huffington Post
URL Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lecia ... d-jeremiah-wright_b_91848.html
Published: Mar 17, 2008
Author: Lecia Shorter
Post Date: 2008-03-17 12:19:30 by Brian S
Keywords: None
Views: 801
Comments: 92

There has been quite a furry over the past week concerning some admittedly controversial statements made by Senator Obama's pastor, Reverend Jeremiah Wright. Yet if we look at Rev. Wright's statements in full context, they are nothing more than a man speaking truth to power. Rather than acknowledge the truth about the dark past of America, and in some instances the present, we are quick to charge anyone who removes the veil of our history as being racist and/or anti-American.

African American religious leaders have historically combined sociology, theology and politics. In some instances, it has been done to inspire change, and in other instances, to inspire awareness. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. is a prime example. Yet he was considered an agent of change and is celebrated for his courage and involvement in the Civil Rights movement through non-violent means. Why now is Rev. Wright viewed differently and even vilified? Is it because Dr. King was more eloquent in his speech than Rev. Wright. No! The answer can only lie in the fact that Rev. Wright is the pastor of an African American presidential hopeful who has seemingly wooed white America by running a campaign that has made every effort to transcend racial divisiveness. In other words, if Senator Obama is removed from the equation, how interested is America in the veracity or inflammatory nature of the comments made by Rev. Wright?

The comments of Rev. Wright deserve a closer analysis in order to determine whether they are in fact racist and anti-American, or, is the media engaging in nothing more than sensationalism in an effort to diminish Senator Obama's cross cultural appeal.

One of the primary comments criticized by the media is that Senator Obama knows what it means to be a black man in an America controlled by rich, white people. Does the malfeasance lie in the fact that Senator Obama grew up as a black man in America or that America is controlled by rich, white people? Certainly it cannot be the former. It is irrefutable that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are rich, white men in control of economic, social and political policy in America. The question then becomes, is it racist or anti-American to say that Ameica is controlled by rich, white people or is this a truth spoken to power?

Another comment which is more shocking than anything else is Rev. Wright's announcement that Senator Clinton can never know what it means to be a black man in America, and, she has never been called the "n" word. Yet, whether we are speaking of Hillary Clinton or any other white person of privilege in this nation, the fact remains they can never know what it has meant, or what it means, to be a black man in America. Neither can they know how deeply hurtful it is to be called the "n" word or worse yet to be treated as a member of the "n" class. Unfortunately, as progressive as we would like to consider ourselves, racism is alive and well in our society. We have made strives but we still have a long road ahead.

Interestingly, although Bill Clinton has been spoken of as the first black president of the United States, Rev. Wright said Bill Clinton did to black people what he did to Monica Lewinski, "he was riding dirty." In other words, Bill Clinton had an intimate relationship with a mesmerized young woman with no intention of treating her with dignity or respect. The impact of the three strikes laws on the African American community and funding of prisons to the detriment of education and healthcare is a prime example.

A close look at any state budget in this country will reveal that the majority of state resources are directed toward prisons to the detriment of education and other necessary state programs. Many states are experiencing critical budget crisis but they will not compromise where the prison systems are concerned. In the past five years alone, states have faced a combined $200 billion in budget gaps. Meanwhile, prisons continue to consume a larger portion of the state budget pie--$35 billion annually in 1999, up from $17 billion in 1990--rendering them a bigger target for budget cutters. From 1985 to 2000, prison budgets grew at six times the rate of higher education budgets. If imprisoned, the Black man provides jobs and economic opportunities for the white underclass. The three strikes law and mandatory sentencing is a good way of ensuring the prison system stays in business and correctional officers employed.

Another example is Bill Clinton's welfare reform which eliminated Aid to Families With Dependent Children and forced women into low paying jobs with no consideration for child care. Thus, a new category of the working poor.

Finally, Rev. Wright spoke of the lies of the American government. According to Rev. Wright, the American government lied about the connection of Al Qaeda to Saddam Hussein, the connection of 9/11 to Operation Iraqi Freedom, and weapons of mass destruction. Ironically, the goal of the Democratic Party is to unseat the current administration because of these very lies and the detriment they have caused to our economy and standing in the world. The remaining Bush supporters are among the rare few who choose to think otherwise. They (Sean Hannity) are also believed to be the originators of this controversy.

Once again, the American public is being duped. Unfortunately, Senator Obama is receiving the brunt of it all. He is now being charged as being associated with a racist and anti-American minister by white Americans and lacking allegiance by African American ministers. There has been no focus on John McCain's spiritual advisors or the Reverend Billy Graham who was heard on tape speaking against the Jewish people to former president Richard Nixon. Hopefully, Americans will look beyond the rhetoric and analyze Senator Obama's capacity to be president upon his record and ideological perspectives about the issues that really matter to this country. Subscribe to *Obama 2008*

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest

#1. To: Brian S (#0)

One of the primary comments criticized by the media is that Senator Obama knows what it means to be a black man in an America controlled by rich, white people.

Does anyone care how it feels as a lowest class white person living in an America controlled by rich white people????

Of course not.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   12:25:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: Cynicom (#1)

Exactly.

The Reverend's problem is that while he has a good rant which does included truth in it, he fails to offer lessons or solutions.

In that, he is a very bad preacher and pastor. He gets half the job done and neglects the other half so what you end up with is hate and discontent without a direction to channel it in.

A good pastor uses truth and current events as the base layer of a sermon to build up into the "and here is how you deal with it/lessons to learn/how to make it not happen again/how the Bible applies in the modern age" conclusion that gives the flock the tools and knowledge needed to handle what is outlined in the base (first) part of the sermon.

Unfortunately, the Reverend skips that last part.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   12:45:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: mirage (#2)

what you end up with is hate and discontent

Hate is the easiest and quickest emotion to arouse in man and demagogues use it as their weapon.

Somehow the Reverend and the Obamas think that the ruling elite of this country only look down on blacks. They need to get their racist heads out of the sand and quit their self pity party.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   13:00:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: mirage (#2)

he fails to offer lessons or solutions.

That is incorrect.

Chicago's Trinity UCC is 'great gift to wider church family'

Located in the heart of Chicago's impoverished Southside, Trinity UCC's vast array of ministries include career development and college placement, tutorial and computer services, health care and support groups, domestic violence programs, pastoral care and counseling, bereavement services, drug and alcohol recovery, prison ministry, financial counseling and credit union, housing and economic development, dozens of choral, instrumental and dance groups, and diverse programming for all ages, including youth and senior citizens.

Before making inflammatory statements you might want to check the facts.

www.ucc.org/news/chicagos-trinity-ucc-is.html

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   13:15:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: robin (#4)

The Reverend's problem is that while he has a good rant which does included truth in it, he fails to offer lessons or solutions.

Mirage waa speaking of the rant, as was I.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   13:18:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Cynicom (#3)

They need to get their racist heads out of the sand and quit their self pity party.

That is precisely what Bill Cosby has been saying. Fortunately, more and more people are rallying to his cause and his fan base (on social truth, not on comedy) is growing by leaps and bounds.

If there was a "send Cos around to preach" fund, I'd send it a big donation.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   13:20:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: robin (#4)

Before making inflammatory statements you might want to check the facts.

My facts are checked. What solution does the Reverend offer to stopping the war?

None.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   13:21:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: mirage (#7)

The Reverend's problem is that while he has a good rant which does included truth in it, he fails to offer lessons or solutions.

In that, he is a very bad preacher and pastor. He gets half the job done and neglects the other half so what you end up with is hate and discontent without a direction to channel it in.

Now you are being rather dishonest, there is nothing in your comments about his opinion about the Iraq war.

I gave you evidence of how his church has helped the community, so now you are trying to say he has done nothing to teach his church about the Iraq war.

Well you are wrong again.

War on Iraq IQ Test
REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT / Trinity Pastor's Page 23feb03

Take the War on Iraq IQ Test
Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq?

Barack Obama's pastor Rev. Dr. Jeremiah Wright, Jr., pastor of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago, gave this list of 53 questions to his congregation Sunday, February 23, 2003.

"Members of Trinity are asked to think about these things and be prayerful as we sift through the 'hype' being poured on by the George Bush-controlled media," Re. Wright wrote.

Here he is blaming the Bush regime for 9/11.

Pastor Reverend Jeremiah Wright Blames the u.s. for the Terrorist attacks on 9/11/2001

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   13:34:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Cynicom (#8)

ping

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   13:37:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: robin (#8)

A good sermon has the following parts to it:

Outline the problem you wish to address
Give Scriptural examples
Explain why this is a problem
Offer solutions for people to incorporate into their lives
Sets people on the path to incorporate this into their lives
Gives them the tools they need to bring forth these solutions into the world

A rant does some of this but fails to offer the latter bits. I've seen enough of these videos over the weekend that this particular fellow fails on the last bits.

Blaming Bush for 9/11 is one part of a sermon. Where is the rest?

Sorry, you can't defend a lot of what he's saying. "Blame whitey" is a non-starter. You are defending "United States of AmeriKKKa" and "Blame all white people for all your ills" with your comments. Since you defend this stuff, you give it credit for truth and are defending an unfounded and ridiculous assertion. If you're white, then you tar yourself by defending the man's comments.

The Reverend does not distinguish between people in many of his rants.

You cannot seriously be trying to defend that.

If you're defending his right to speak, that's one thing. If you want to call me a Klan member, then you just bought an enemy.

Do you understand the difference and that you're being invited to back off before you get in so far over your head you can't get out?

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   13:49:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: mirage (#10) (Edited)

How is blaming the Bush regime for 9/11, "blame whitey"?

I guess you missed this part of my post.

War on Iraq IQ Test
REV. JEREMIAH WRIGHT / Trinity Pastor's Page 23feb03

Take the War on Iraq IQ Test
Do you know enough to justify going to war with Iraq?

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   13:58:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: robin (#11)

No politician is ever going to be perfect.

Consequently, even politicians who want to end our wars will furnish grounds for criticism, if only through guilt by association.

However, our media are only going to dwell on the failings of politicians who oppose the interests of the military-industrial complex.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-03-17   14:02:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: aristeides (#12)

However, our media are only going to dwell on the failings of politicians who oppose the interests of the military-industrial complex.

They are doing more than that though, they are taking some of the seemingly outrageous things Wright has said out of context.

Chicago's Trinity UCC is 'great gift to wider church family'
Thomas says he has been saddened by news reports that "present such a caricature of a congregation that been such a great blessing."

"These attacks, many of them motivated by their own partisan agenda, cannot go unchallenged," Thomas emphasizes. "It's time for all of us to say 'No' to these attacks and to declare that we will not allow anyone to undermine or destroy the ministries of any of our congregations in order to serve their own narrow political or ideological ends."

...
Noting the church's work in health care, early childhood education and economic development, Whiten says, "The scope of their concern and outreach is extraordinary. It's really just an outstanding congregation."

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   14:08:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: robin (#11)

"Blame Whitey" is a staple of the Reverend's rants. You'll find that peppered throughout his commentary.

Again, are you defending his "blame whitey" comments as well as the others or are you defending his right to speak his mind?

There is a difference, you know.

I'm trying to get you to check the facts here if you can't tell. I did my homework, now its time for you to do a little more of your own. Once you're done, you're likely going to want to drop this guy as a cause to defend.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   14:17:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: robin (#13)

Frank Schaeffer: Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-03-17   14:17:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: mirage (#14)

So far your homework earns a D-.

I gave links to show you how incorrect your previous statements were. You of course, did not acknowledge any of it.

Have you ever heard of social injustice? It is not blame whitey, it is blame racism in the system.

I posted this to you on the other thread:

But recent research has kept the argument alive. A 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers. Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

www.nytimes.com/2007/10/0...w&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Even Dr. Paul has commented on this sort of injustice.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   14:21:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: robin (#16)

Have you ever heard of social injustice? It is not blame whitey, it is blame racism in the system.

"Social Injustice" for the most part is a canard used by those who want someone else to give them a handout. It has no place in Christian Theology until someone finds a passage in the Bible that says "The rules apply to everyone EXCEPT government-sponsored victim groups."

If you want to blame racism in the system, are you referring to Affirmative Action, which is Government-Sponsored Racism in FAVOR of so-called "disadvantaged minorities"? If so, you label yourself as a racist, not that there is anything wrong with that, but wear the label proudly if you choose to go that route. Get a button that says "Throw Whitey to the back of the bus." See how well that works.

Socioeconomics and culture are the really big players; skin color is less so a player these days. Skin color is actually a minority of issues since we've been training police properly. It just gets the headlines because the news media loves a feeding frenzy and can't get their minds out of the 1960s and understand that the country has evolved.

Now...are you saying that people of color should be allowed to get away with things that others are not for "social justice" purposes? Would that not be racist on its face and unjust to other groups not so highly favored by your "social justice" theory? Or do you believe the law should apply equally to all people at all times?

Studies show that Hispanics tend to drive drunk more often than anyone else. Its a cultural thing. Should we limit the number of DUI arrests on Hispanics because Asians don't tend to drive drunk or should we set quotas where if you arrest a hundred Hispanics, you have to arrest a hundred Asians? Would that be fair? Should we go to quota systems and use Affirmative Action in murder trials? We let the killer go because we hit the quota?

I'm having problems trying to keep up with this stuff because it is unequal and makes little to no sense. Either we do something or we don't. Its binary. It is "yes" or it is "no." This half-assed stuff makes a mockery of equal protection under the law and bring Animal Farm two steps closer to reality.

The way to end racism is to end racism. Period.

The way to perpetuate it is to do what we have been doing and let canards like "social justice" where people are granted special favors run wild. You cannot make up for the ills of 500 years ago today. Those people are gone forever. What you can do is build a better tomorrow but that is impossible until people let go of historical grievances and decide to move forward into the future rather than being mired in the past.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   14:51:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: mirage (#2)

the Reverend skips that last part

That's because he's a high-functioning retard, just like every other "holy" man.

nobody  posted on  2008-03-17   14:56:44 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: mirage (#17)

But recent research has kept the argument alive. A 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers. Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

www.nytimes.com/2007/10/0...w&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Even Dr. Paul has commented on this sort of injustice.

What part of this study do you not understand? It is well known and has been well documented in more than one study.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   15:02:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: robin (#9)

Paul and a lot of other people have said the same thing, however NOT in the form of a racist rant.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   15:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: robin (#19)

What part of this study do you not understand?

I'm going to explain something to you here.

There is a difference between "equal opportunity" and "equal outcome" and these studies and you don't understand that difference.

Equal Opportunity means just that; everyone has the same chance at things. Equal Outcome is what you're talking about with "social justice" - these studies complain that "its unequal!" and are therefore calling for equal outcome.

But people are not equal. Cultures are not equal. Societies are not equal. True equality can never be achieved; all that can be achieved is equal OPPORTUNITY because people are different. They have different gifts, different sizes, and different abilities.

If I were to tell you that Hispanics drive drunk more than Asians, would you not expect a higher percentage of Hispanics to be convicted of a DUI? If you don't say "Why, if more Hispanics drive drunk, I'd expect more DUI stops on Hispanics" then you need to sit down and ask yourself why you don't expect more DUI stops on Hispanics if they have a greater tendency to drive drunk.

Think about it for a minute. If a group has a higher tendency to do something, then the police are going to stop more of them and less of someone else, right? Does that not make sense? It does to most people.

This is one of those "Duh" moments. Genetically, American Indians are alcoholics. They didn't evolve the ability to deal with alcohol and they didn't make it themselves. Would you not expect them to have problems with it once they were introduced to it? Thinking people would. Thinking people know that not everyone is the same.

Your study does NOT take differences among groups into account. It doesn't take into account that people and cultures are different. Behind the scenes, it tries to say "But we're all the same!" -- WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME.

That is where your argument fails. People are different. Cultures are different. Equal Outcome is a non-starter. It simply does not work.

"Social Justice" demands equal outcome. It doesn't work because people are not all the same. It would only work if all people had the same background, the same education, the same genes, the same upbringing, etc.

It just doesn't work. Regardless of what Dr. Paul says, he misses the fact that Equal Outcome DOES NOT WORK. It never has and it never will until and unless all people are identical - the same - no variations between them.

That is why the argument fails.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   15:18:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: mirage (#21)

Therefore don't even bother to try to remove social injustice? That's absurd and just plain wrong.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   15:25:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: nobody (#18)

That's because he's a high-functioning retard, just like every other "holy" man.

Well, not all of them. Some are really good at giving their flocks the knowledge and tools needed to make their way in the world. Others are not so good. Still others fail utterly.

Here at Chez Mirage, we have a great respect for those pastors who tend to their flocks and give them what they need to 'make it' in the world. We trash those who offer no real solutions.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   15:26:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: mirage (#23)

Never saw the need, my parents gave me more advice than I needed and all the pastors had nothing interesting to say, ever. Sorry, it is a fault of mine that I cannot relate to people from messed-up homes.

nobody  posted on  2008-03-17   15:30:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: robin (#22)

Therefore don't even bother to try to remove social injustice? That's absurd and just plain wrong.

It can't be done. Let me throw a situation out at you.

There are two people. One has an IQ of 60 and didn't finish grade school. The other has an IQ of 250 with a triple-PhD in physics, math, and mechanical engineering.

Which one becomes a rocket scientist?

"Social Justice" says that since there aren't too many low-IQ rocket scientists, you give the job to the guy with the IQ of 60 whether or not he can handle it.

What is more absurd? Recognizing that everyone has different talents or trying to make someone with an IQ of 60 a rocket scientist?

Do you start to see the problems with "equal outcome" which is what "social justice" mandates?

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   15:36:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Brian S, aristeides, robin, all (#0)

Once again, the American public is being duped. Unfortunately, Senator Obama is receiving the brunt of it all. He is now being charged as being associated with a racist and anti-American minister by white Americans and lacking allegiance by African American ministers.

This surprises people? Y'all didn't think they were going to allow Obama the presidency, did you?

Vitamin Z  posted on  2008-03-17   15:40:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: mirage (#25)

This isn't about a career choice, this is about injustice in the judicial system.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   15:42:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: aristeides (#12)

No politician is ever going to be perfect.

Consequently, even politicians who want to end our wars will furnish grounds for criticism, if only through guilt by association.

You think Obama really wants to end all wars? Do you agree with Ron Paul's statement last week that Obama is a fraud, he has voted to fund the wars, and that he would actually expand the wars?

However, our media are only going to dwell on the failings of politicians who oppose the interests of the military-industrial complex.

Our media? LOL. Until a few weeks ago, Obama had received the best media coverage of any politician in recent memory.

Vitamin Z  posted on  2008-03-17   15:44:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: mirage (#25)

I believe I am at the point (aren't we all?) where I can usually recognize a genius in some field of knowledge and have no inclination to consider their lack of religious affiliation as being automatically relevant.

nobody  posted on  2008-03-17   15:44:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: mirage, robin (#25)

It can't be done. Let me throw a situation out at you.

While employed by the FAA, our facility had zero "minorities". A young black male from NYC showed up unannounced for training and work. All was fine until we found out he knew NOTHING of what the job entailed. While he sat there doing noting for six months, we gave him manuals to read to try to give him some sort of background before he went to Oklahoma city to the FAA academy.

All of us apprised management that money was being wasted only to have racism thrown in our faces. After time he was sent to the Academy at great expense, to return as a total failure. Some of his grades were in the 20s and 30s. Now he has almost a year in and what to do with him????? Month after month he sat there, drawing a good salary because management dared not release him. He knew what was going on and that they dared not terminate him.

Finally they found him a Federal job in NYC doing something and he accepted it.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   15:50:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Cynicom (#30)

Well again, this is not about affirmative action, this is about the proven (by many studies, including the one in the link I posted here) injustice that exists in the judicial system.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   16:07:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: robin (#31)

Well again, this is not about affirmative action,

It is about them not wanting to improve their own lot, rather cry injustice and racism.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   16:10:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: Cynicom (#32)

Maybe you missed this earlier post, to which I was referring:

But recent research has kept the argument alive. A 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers. Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

www.nytimes.com/2007/10/0...w&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

Even Dr. Paul has commented on this sort of injustice.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   16:14:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: robin (#33)

But recent research has kept the argument alive. A 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers. Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

The state of CA this year is spending $8 billion dollars to fund the state prisons. I do not have the current makeup at hand but the last I knew, white inmates were in the small minority.

If that is still correct, that means the "others" are either there unjustly, OR, they commit more crime.

You are correct in that there is NO justice in the justice system, unless you have money or connections. O J Simpson comes to mind.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   16:22:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: Cynicom, robin, all (#34)

Criminal justice is like military intelligence - an oxyMORON.

Lod  posted on  2008-03-17   16:37:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: lodwick (#35)

Indeed.

For justice you need the best Judge money can buy.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   16:38:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Brian S (#0)

One of the primary comments criticized by the media is that Senator Obama knows what it means to be a black man in an America controlled by rich, white people.

Change rich white people to rich Jewish people and it will be a correct statement. Most white people aren't Jewish and I am getting tired of being lumped in with them.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-03-17   16:45:56 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: RickyJ (#37)

Change rich white people to rich Jewish people and it will be a correct statement. Most white people aren't Jewish and I am getting tired of being lumped in with them.

Excellent observation - thanks.

Lod  posted on  2008-03-17   16:49:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: robin (#27)

This isn't about a career choice, this is about injustice in the judicial system.

There is no difference in the argument.

Hispanics drive drunk in greater numbers than Asians. This is a well-documented fact.

Your argument is that we should not be arresting "as many" Hispanics even if they drive drunk in greater numbers.

Your argument calls for a quota system. We get to a certain number of criminals from an ethnic group and we stop arresting them.

That is an absurd argument and is just as absurd as expecting a 60 IQ person to be able to be a rocket scientist.

Its less about race and more about culture and attitude.

Think about this one.

T-Bone is black and lives in the inner city. He thinks going to school is 'white' so he skips class and eventually drops out. He then goes off and robs a liquor store because he can't get a job due to his lack of ability to do basic math, speak coherent English, and because he didn't finish high school.

T-Bone made a choice early on that led him down the path to committing armed robbery.

Should T-Bone go to jail or not? Did he not make his own choices that led to his ending up in a jail cell?

"Social Justice" says its not his fault. After all, T-Bone is black and its just not fair that he dropped out of school and ended up putting a gun in someone's face.

You say that T-Bone is not responsible for his own actions and call for "social justice" - why? He set himself up to fail. He made a decision after setting himself up to fail to go and rob the store.

Tell me why T-Bone should not be held accountable for his own actions. Did he not do it all himself? Did he not make his own choices in this? If not, who made the choices for him and then forced him to pull a gun on a clerk in a liquor store?

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   19:02:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: mirage (#39) (Edited)

This has everything to do with racism in the criminal justice system. I have now posted this about 4 times on this thread. You refuse to read or acknowledge this.

Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

www.nytimes.com/2007/10/0...w&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   19:08:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: robin (#40)

This has everything to do with racism in the criminal justice system. I have now posted this about 4 times on this thread. You refuse to read or acknowledge this.

I read it and rejected it. I've already told you that.

I have also told you that he problem is that these studies lump people in together and assume they are all the same.

People are not the same. Crimes are not the same. They need to be looked at on a case-by-case basis.

Let's take your quote and I'll show you what is wrong with it and why the generalization fails:

Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

Okay, so let's take a murder. Defendant 'A' simply shoots the victim in the head and he dies. Defendant 'B' tortures the victim for three days, shoots the victim a dozen times, then sodomizes the body twice after the victim died as well as eating part of it.

Which one should get the longer sentence or should they get the same sentence because, after all, "its just murder."

Both are 'murder' and show up in the statistics as 'murder' - but Defendant 'B' gets a much longer sentence because the jury is absolutely horrified at what he did. Defendant 'B' stood up on the stand and described the stew he made out of the victim, suggesting that more salt was needed.

Where is that in the 'study'?

Now, tell me why Defendant 'B' should not get a longer sentence than Defendant 'A'.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   19:17:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: mirage (#41)

It only makes sense that public defenders and lower-paid lawyers are less effective, and it comes back to the bell curve, via IQ/wealth, which are loosely correlated.

nobody  posted on  2008-03-17   19:25:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: mirage (#41)

I read it and rejected it.

Based on what? Your opinions over the results of many studies.

How arrogant!

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   19:29:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: Brian S (#0)

Article - A close look at any state budget in this country will reveal that the majority of state resources are directed toward prisons to the detriment of education and other necessary state programs.

Common sense would indicate that this is mistaken. A casual look at a state budget proves it. It is difficult to believe any state directs the majority of its resources to prisons.

www.ebudget.ca.gov/agencies.html

In California, for the proposed 2008-09 budget, there is $141B total state funds. The cost of education dwarfs the prison budget, as does Health and Human Services.

$141B total

$10.7B - Corrections and Rehabilitation
$48.3B - K-12 Education
$15.1B - Higher Education
$40.2B - Health and Human Services
$13.4B - Business, Transportation and Housing

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-17   19:50:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: mirage, robin (#41)

tell me why Defendant 'B' should not get a longer sentence than Defendant 'A'.

Each has but one life to serve.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-17   19:53:04 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: mirage, robin (#17)

The way to end racism is to end racism. Period.

How does one do that? If appeal to the hearts and minds of racists does not work, racism persists. The law operates on behavior, not beliefs.

How do you address the problem of a large facility whose hiring and discipline practices have resulted in identifiable preferential treatment for one group or another? (Where they are in power, a "minority" can render preferential treatment to themselves.)

Another problem from the sixties was certain unions who had greater demand for membership than the need for members. The long-standing and non-racist policy was to first accept children of existing union members. In some cases this filled the need for members for generations. But, if there were no Black members, how did one ever access employment in that field? (Also, how could a white plumber's son become an electrician?)

When there is identifiable unequal treatment, based on something such as race or other status, how should the law attempt to fashion a remedy?

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-17   20:05:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: nolu_chan, mirage (#45)

I have more faith in the details of these studies than mirage has. mirage just assumes they are faulty, I do not.

Obviously if someone has committed more than one crime in the process of another, that will be matched with a similar on the other side of the color divide.

But mirage is desperate to make a very weak case, why I can only speculate.

Anyone who does a little research will find there are numerous studies, with the details to insure accuracy.

From another study....

The results of two new studies which underscore the continuing injustice of racism in the application of the death penalty are being released through this report. The first study documents the infectious presence of racism in the death penalty, and demonstrates that this problem has not slackened with time, nor is it restricted to a single region of the country. The other study identifies one of the potential causes for this continuing crisis: those who are making the critical death penalty decisions in this country are almost exclusively white.

From the days of slavery in which black people were considered property, through the years of lynchings and Jim Crow laws, capital punishment has always been deeply affected by race. Unfortunately, the days of racial bias in the death penalty are not a remnant of the past.

And here's another....

Crimes and Punishment: Blacks in the Army's Criminal Justice System

Naomi Verdugo44;

Are Blacks discriminated against in U.S. Army courts-martial? This article reviews the literature and presents original research to address this question. Other topics examined include the overrepresentation of Blacks in the Army courts-martial and soldiers' perceptions of the fairness of the justice system. 1 examined all aggravated assault charges heard in Army courts-martial during a 6-year period and found several striking differences. White defendants are far more likely to have a pretrial agreement (i.e., plea bargain) than are Blacks (69% vs. 5 I%), and hence, Whites are more likely to plead guilty (87%) than are Blacks (72%). These same patterns are found when all courts-martial, regardless of offense, are analyzed for the same 6-year period. Once a defendant enters the Army courts-martial system, there is no statistical evidence of discrimination. If discrimination occurs in this process, it will occur where command- ers have greater discretion (e.g., for less serious offenses, prior to deciding on courts-martial). Suggestions for further research are offered.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:05:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: nolu_chan, mirage (#46) (Edited)

www.slashdoc.com/documents/32414

The “War on Drugs” established that the impact of incarceration would be used as a weapon to combat the illegal drug problem in this country. Unfortunately, this war against drugs has fallen disproportionately on black Americans. “Blacks constitute 62.6% of all drug offenders admitted to state prisons in 1996, whereas whites constituted 36.7%. The drug offender admissions rate for black men ranges from 60 to an astonishing 1,146 per 100,000 black men. In contrast, the white rate begins at 6 and rises no higher than 139 per 100,000 white men. Drug offenses accounted for nearly two out of five of all black admissions to state prisons (Human Rights Watch, 2000).” The disproportionate rates at which black drug offenders are sent to prison originate in racially disproportionate rates of arrest.

This brings up the question; do blacks use drugs more than whites? Contrary to public belief, the higher arrest rates of black drug offenders do not reflect higher rates of drug law violations. Whites, actually, commit more drug crimes than blacks. “By 1988, with national anti-drug efforts in full force, blacks were arrested on drug charges at five times the rate of whites. Statistical as well as anecdotal evidence indicate drug possession and drug selling cut across all racial, socio-economic and geographic lines. But, because drug law enforcement resources have been concentrated in low-income, predominantly minority urban areas, drug offending whites have been disproportionately free from arrest compared to blacks (Human Rights Watch, 2000).”

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:09:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: mirage, robin, all (#41)

Where is that in the 'study'?

Now, tell me why Defendant 'B' should not get a longer sentence than Defendant 'A'.

Unless this Justice dept. study goes into detail about each crime, and the prior background of criminals involved, this document is just one more a useless govt. document. I pray to god that some here could see the savage carnage some man-animals of color leave in their wake. The brutality involved just might make them shuck their liberal clothing and join reality.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   20:15:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Jethro Tull (#49)

There are plenty of studies and more details if you choose to examine them, as I noted in another post. If you think a study would be so inaccurate w/o checking then you have an agenda. I found 2 more studies and here's another:

Let's dispense with all the legalese: if you are black and deal you will be treated 10 times worse than if you are white and deal drugs. That's the bottom line.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:19:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: Jethro Tull, mirage (#50)

And another study:

Black youths are six times more likely to be incarcerated than whites, even when they are charged with the same crimes and have never been in detention before.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:22:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: robin (#19)

But recent research has kept the argument alive. A 2005 study by the Justice Department found that while Hispanic, black and white drivers were stopped by the police about as often, Hispanic drivers or their vehicles were searched 11.4 percent of the time and blacks 10.2 percent of the time, compared with 3.5 percent for white drivers.

Hellooooooooo............is there anything here that mentions that blacks and Hispanics *agreed* to allow their cars to be searched? That's a common tactic by the PD and shame on the dopes who agree to let it happen.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   20:24:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Jethro Tull (#52)

Data collected from state courts by the Justice Department also shows that a higher percentage of black felons than white felons receive prison sentences for nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses.

You left out the more interesting sentence that follows.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:27:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: robin (#53)

nearly all offenses, and also that blacks receive longer maximum sentences for most offenses

Beware of the modifiers, *nearly* and *most*. Given it's a govt. study, and details are missing, these words can, and do, disguise a multitude of sins.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   20:50:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: robin (#43)

How arrogant!

Yes, how arrogant that I read through your study and determined they looked at a spreadsheet of statistics that had no bearing on the individual cases and found not a shred of evidence that they looked at cases individually.

A friend of mine was torn limb from limb by a meth addict in his own house.

According to you, the perp got a "much stiffer sentence than was merited" and "social justice" demands that the perp get let out.

Go explain that to his 4-year old daughter, that her father's killer doesn't merit the death penalty.

How arrogant indeed that daughters are left without fathers and you complain about the justice system in the manner you do.

Should not someone who physically tore a man's limbs off get a stiffer sentence?

Or are you so smug and self-righteous that you can brush off facing a four-year old and telling her that since her daddy's killer was not white and that the KILLER is a victim of injustice?

I'm really starting to get disgusted by you here because you can't think beyond your polarizing political conditioning to see beyond your rhetoric into reality.

Case-by-case is the only way this stuff can be examined. Not heaps of statistics on a spreadsheet. Case-by-case.

I'll arrange the meeting with the four-year old and her grandmother for you if you have the guts to tell her that her daddy's killer is a victim of injustice.

I'll bet real money you don't. Revel in your self-rightousness and run from the victims of crimes. Its best that way. You won't have to deal with reality then.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   20:51:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: mirage (#55)

I have posted several more studies, the results are the same.

You may have read the study, but not the details. You never post a link or a quote just your own opinion. An opinion colored (pun intended) by what happened to your friend.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:54:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: Jethro Tull (#54)

I have posted several studies, including studies that make it clear the crime and criminal history of the cases were the same.

There are many more. Not that any will convince you since it appears you have already made up your mind.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   20:56:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: robin (#57)

No, you could convince me will a well developed argument. I'd also love the opportunity to give you a tour of Harlem, Bed Sty, Brownsville and Jamaica, Queens. The black hatred of whitey is grossly under reported by the MSM who has an agenda of spreading the gospel of multiculturalism.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   21:05:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#59. To: Jethro Tull (#58)

I have already posted several links to studies on this thread, I'm not going to repost them. Here's another one:

Philadelphia Study: Conclusions

After controlling for levels of crime severity and the defendant's criminal background, the average death sentencing rates in Philadelphia were .18 for black defendants and .13 for other defendants, which amounts to a 38% higher rate for blacks (coincidentally, these rates were approximately the same as the unadjusted rates on p.8). The disparities for various racial combinations of defendant and victim were even wider and are shown in the table below.

Whichever measures the researchers employed, the statistics pointed to the same conclusion: black defendants on average face a distinctly higher risk of receiving a death sentence than all other similarly situated defendants. The various independent tests were so thoroughly consistent that they pointed to race discrimination as the underlying cause. The researchers stated: "In the face of these results, we consider it implausible that the estimated disparities are a product of chance or reflect a failure to control for important omitted case characteristics. . . . In short, we believe it would be extremely unlikely to observe disparities of this magnitude and consistency if there were substantial equality in the treatment of defendants in this system."14

For those on death row from Philadelphia, these numbers translate into a harsh and deadly reality: if the death penalty were applied to blacks as it is to others, there would be far fewer blacks facing execution.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   21:08:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#60. To: mirage (#59)

ping

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   21:08:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#61. To: Jethro Tull, robin (#58)

I'd also love the opportunity to give you a tour of Harlem, Bed Sty, Brownsville and Jamaica, Queens.

My last home in Queens Village is now part of a vast jungle. My last visit there was back in the 1970s. Remainder of the wifes family had moved out on Long Island.

When he retired they moved to upstate NY for SAFETY.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   21:12:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#62. To: Jethro Tull (#58)

The black hatred of whitey is grossly under reported

Maybe social/criminal injustice is one of the reasons why.

There are neighborhoods in L.A. I don't drive through, and streets in San Diego. And something similar is true for blacks, they don't want to be pulled over and harassed by the police, guaranteed in certain neighborhoods.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   21:20:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#63. To: robin, mirage (#59)

re: social justice

I don't remember where I first heard it, but "social justice" is one of those phrases puts a kink in my neckbone, I think it come from Ford Foundation.

It sounds like something any reasonable person would support, until you discover the connection between such an innoculous sounding phrase and the hideous Marxist political agenda behind it. Social Justice is nothing more than the globalist equivalent of tyranny by special interest groups.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:20:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#64. To: Dakmar (#63)

I'm referring to injustice in the criminal/judicial system.

I posted many links to studies that show the inequity that continues to exist, for the same crime, the same criminal background.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-17   21:21:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#65. To: robin (#64)

I posted many links to studies that show the inequity that continues to exist, for the same crime, the same criminal background.

Social injustice occurs for anyone that cannot fight the system, regardless of color.

O J Simpson proved that point very well.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   21:24:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#66. To: robin (#62)

There are neighborhoods in L.A. I don't drive through, and streets in San Diego. And something similar is true for blacks, they don't want to be pulled over and harassed by the police, guaranteed in certain neighborhoods.

It's been since 1996 or so since Cops rioted and beat up on random citizens here in Indy. It's been about ten minutes I'd guess before an honest citizen was aggressed against by a lowlife of any color. People who live in public parks have already surrendered their 4th Amemdment rights if you ask me.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:25:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#67. To: robin (#64)

I'm referring to injustice in the criminal/judicial system.

I know, and I'm in complete agreement with you on "the vision thing", but social justice is one of those terms set me on edge, like change agent or christian zionist.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:31:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#68. To: Cynicom, robin (#65)

Social injustice occurs for anyone that cannot fight the system, regardless of color.

Spoken like a true hardcore founder of the Social Injustice Movement! :)

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:34:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#69. To: robin (#56)

You may have read the study, but not the details.

They're not looking at it case-by-case. That's what the articles all say. "On average" -- well, "average" doesn't take into account mitigating circumstances or severity of crime.

Where is the case-by-case analysis? These guys don't do them. Read "The Color of Crime" and you might gain some enlightenment.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   21:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#70. To: Dakmar (#68)

Spoken like a true hardcore founder of the Social Injustice Movement! :)

My last foray for justice involved political figures. I lost because the local Chief of Police got on the stand and perjured himself because of pressure. To make matters worse, he was an old family friend. On his death bed he said he was sorry.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   21:40:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#71. To: Cynicom (#70)

That sort of nonsense would spook me too, and you have to officially join The Party to get the really timely notifications.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:43:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#72. To: Dakmar, robin (#63)

Social Justice is nothing more than the globalist equivalent of tyranny by special interest groups.

Bingo.

Every time I see one of these so-called studies, I always read "on average" which sets me off.

What is an "average" crime? What is an "average" armed robbery? Is it where they lock people up? Is it where they don't lock people up?

"On average" is a weasel-word when people want to hide the facts.

If someone were to say "An armed robbery where the perp was polite and didn't offer to kill the victim several times got 10 years whereas an armed robbery where the victims were tied up in the back and had their heads kicked in got 15 years".....yeah, then it would make some sense.

But these crusaders don't do that. They lump everything in together and say "The average murder..." - um, right. Like a mob hit where a guy pulls a gun and shoots his victim once, then leaves and Jeffery Dahmer are the same?

Nuh-uh. Not true and they never give citations other than "We went through the DC records..."

They don't give a list of crimes and the circumstances that might lead to a stiffer sentence. Its always "on average" as if there is an average crime!

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   21:45:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#73. To: robin, cynicom, all (#62)

Maybe social/criminal injustice is one of the reasons why.

So we're looking for the famed 'root cause' are we?

John Lindsey made a political career out of that, and when he left NYC it was uninhabitable.

Maybe Dr. William Shockley was correct after all, or do you dismiss his work out of hand?

And what makes you believe all those black prisoners you cite are innocent? Does that Justice Dept study discuss prior arrests? Was there a complainant identifying them as the perpetrator? If yes, how does the system release them? Also please address my question about the car stops. How many black and Hispanics agreed to having their vehicle searched? And, btw, it was standard practice for 'hood denizens to not carry registrations, etc, so what is a cop to do when Jose or Jemal is stopped and produces nada in the way of ownership? When that happened to me, I assumed the car didn't belong to them and was possibly stolen. That's reasonable, right?

robin, there isn't a thing I've posted that hasn't happened to me. To me liberalism is a feel good mental disorder that will, in time, get you or your family killed. For sure it is ruining the nation. Please back up off the cliff and take a reasoned look at America. Racism isn't destroying it. Socialism is.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   21:45:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#74. To: mirage (#72)

They don't give a list of crimes and the circumstances that might lead to a stiffer sentence. Its always "on average" as if there is an average crime!

The Average Crime is committed by a blue-collar factory worker angry about NAFTA.

Serious! :)

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:50:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#75. To: Jethro Tull, robin (#73)

I print this all the time because it is true and it is what is destroying this country...

" Most importantly of all, revealed in this work is the one true cause of the rise and fall of the world's greatest empires - that all civilizations rise and fall according to their racial homogeneity and nothing else - a nation can survive wars, defeats, natural catastrophes, but not racial dissolution."

Cynicom  posted on  2008-03-17   21:51:03 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#76. To: Cynicom (#75)

Social engineering is the root cause of discord, as it is meant. Happy, functional societies come together on their own.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   21:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#77. To: Cynicom (#75)

Ironically, the homogeneity of nations/neighborhoods years ago was true diversity. If I wanted a good Italian meal, I went to Little Italy; for Chinese, Chinatown, for a cold libation, Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. This *forced* (as in section 8 housing) mixed and mingle has been a social disaster, foisted on us by academics and condoned by those folks lucky enough to not be affected.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   22:00:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#78. To: robin (#59)

here we go again...

So your excerpt here says:

the average death sentencing rates
black defendants on average

So...where is the actual crime? Where is the severity of the crime? Where is the fact that the perp not only killed the guy but sodomized his body and thus got a stiffer sentence?

In all of these articles you post -- those bits are missing entirely. There is absolutely no context to put it in.

Was it a stiffer sentence? You can't tell because they don't include enough data for you to draw a conclusion about it. Thus, these "studies" are suspect and it reads as if they threw together a spreadsheet and said "Damn, them blacks get stiffer sentences" without looking at the underlying detail.

I guarantee you that with someone who is simply "killed" they get a lighter sentence than the guy who not only kills his victim, but makes a stew out of his bones too.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   22:02:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#79. To: robin, Jethro Tull (#51) (Edited)

Let's pull something from the article:

Black youths are six times more likely to be incarcerated than whites, even when they are charged with the same crimes and have never been in detention before.

Now, right away, what jumps out is "same crime" and no mention of a prior rap sheet. For kids, going to detention is not an automatic, especially in Seattle, where this article came from.

Throughout the entire article, there is no mention of a prior rap sheet or truancy, which makes this suspect. OF COURSE a stiffer sentence comes down when there are priors, but they conveniently ignore this in the article.

Go re-read it. It makes no mention of priors. Its "same crime" but no mention of priors which DO lead to stiffer sentences. Armed Robbery plus Drug Dealing plus Grand Theft - those are three different crimes, yet the way this article is phrased, they could have all three THEN get picked up for vandalism but the author makes you think that doesn't happen.

The reader, not knowing any better, assumes that all kids have a clean rap sheet, but the article makes no mention of that whatsoever. Thus, the conclusions are suspect because we know of a factor that leads to a longer sentence that is NOT referred to here.

Its the same in all of your articles and studies. There is insufficient data or there is something critical to drawing a proper conclusion that is left out.

Couldn't be that there is an agenda, is there? Nah....that would NEVER happen at an ultra-liberal rag like the PI......never in a million years......and they've NEVER been caught in that before several times....

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   22:10:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#80. To: Jethro Tull (#77)

This *forced* (as in section 8 housing) mixed and mingle has been a social disaster

Sounds a lot like the "social engineering" I'm always freaked about. It's not enough to Celebrate Diversity these days, that's for inbred bigots. To be accepted into the cabal one must Promote Diversity these days.

“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac

Dakmar  posted on  2008-03-17   22:11:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#81. To: Dakmar (#80)

It is social engineering. Was it Skinner who had this Utopian dream? Anyway....section 8 housing is the forebearer of this sub prime mortgage mess, but if I dare make the connection, I'll be called bad names :)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-03-17   22:21:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#82. To: robin, mirage (#47)

While crimes must undergo scrutiny individually to mete out justice fairly, statistical studies can show that punishments are meted out to one group disproportionately to such an extent that it becomes statistically impossible to rationalize away as impartial justice based upon individual circumstances. The interpretation of individual circumstances is found to favor one group to an extent that an inherent unfairness is apparent.

-----

In military courts-martial, almost everyone tried is convicted. With different spanks for different ranks, senior people are usually dealt with without trial.

A court-martial is not meant to be fair. It is part of the Executive system, not the Judicial system. The convening authority chooses to have the charges tried. A jury is provided by the convening authority. The military provides a military Jag Corps judge. The convening authority may even provide a military Jag Corps defense counsel. Upon conviction one may appeal... to the convening authority.

From 1997-2000, including all forms of courts-martial, the U.S. Navy achieved a 96.7% conviction rate. In some years, a branch of service achieved a perfect 100% conviction rate for General Courts-Martial.

The reason for the existence of the military courts is the furtherance of good order and discipline, not the promotion of fairness or justice. A a Summary Court, there is no automatic right to counsel.

Held:
1. There is no Sixth Amendment right to counsel in a summary court-martial, since that proceeding is not a "criminal prosecution" as that term is used in the Amendment. ...

2. Nor does the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment require that counsel be provided the accused in a summary court-martial proceeding. ...

We have only recently noted the difference between the diverse civilian community and the much more tightly regimented military community in Parker v. Levy, 417 U.S. 733, 749 (1974). We said there that the UCMJ "cannot be equated to a civilian criminal code. ...

MR. JUSTICE STEWART dissents, believing that the Due Process Clause of the Fifth Amendment requires that a defendant be accorded the assistance of counsel in a summary court-martial proceeding.

MR. JUSTICE MARSHALL, with whom MR. JUSTICE BRENNAN joins, dissenting.

We only recently held that, absent a waiver, "no person may be imprisoned for any offense, whether classified as petty, misdemeanor, or felony, unless he was represented by counsel at his trial." Argersinger v. Hamlin, 407 U.S. 25, 37 (1972). Today the Court refuses to apply Argersinger's holding to defendants in summary court-martial proceedings. Assuming for purposes of its opinion that the Sixth Amendment applies to courts-martial in general, the Court holds that, because of their special characteristics, summary courts-martial in particular are simply not "criminal prosecutions" within the meaning of the Sixth Amendment, and that the right to counsel is therefore inapplicable to them. I dissent.

-- Middendorf v. Henry, 425 U.S. 25 (1976)
Decision of the court by Rehnquist, CJ.

Thus, we find a Summary Court-Martial determined by the Supreme Court to be a disciplinary proceeding, rather than a judicial proceeding, with no requirement for presence of qualified legal counsel. Had they ruled otherwise on the Constitutional right to counsel, many years worth of summary courts would have been overturned on Constitutional grounds.

The right to counsel continues at a Special or General Court-Martial.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-17   23:09:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#83. To: nolu_chan (#46)

When there is identifiable unequal treatment, based on something such as race or other status, how should the law attempt to fashion a remedy?

The same as insurance; make the individual whole.

The current system simply trades one form of discrimination for another. To conclude that the current system is a "remedy" is to declare that institutionalized racism in one form or another is required.

The trick is that there has to be "identifiable" unequal treatment rather than the presumption of unequal treatment.

Anyone who thinks that perpetuating discrimination will end discrimination needs to re-evaluate how they came to that hypocritical conclusion.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-17   23:16:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#84. To: robin, mirage, Jethro Tull (#48)

http://www.slashdoc.com/documents/32414

Racial Disparity in the Correctional Population

“Blacks comprise 13% of the national population, but 30% of people arrested, 41% of people in jail, and 49% of those in prison."

Those statistics say there is something wrong, either with the system, the Black community, or both.

Contributing greatly to this was the great social engineering endeavor of the public housing projects in large cities such as NYC. Gathering all those particular eggs in one big vertical community made for one big social basket case.

I believe the crime rate in these projects is significantly higher than elsewhere, regardless of the ethnicity of a particular housing project. Many of those growing up there follow in the footsteps of their... er... role models.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-17   23:38:22 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#85. To: mirage (#83)

The current system simply trades one form of discrimination for another.

In many cases this absolutely true. In certain cases, there was a need for government intervention just to have blacks allowed an equal opportunity for employment. I am only referring to an equal opportunity based solely on merit. It has proceeded to where, in many places, completely incompetent morons are given management positions in order to achieve some quota balance. Or 90 pound women must be hired as firefighters when they cannot drag firefighting equipment up a high-rise.

There have been different physical fitness standards for men and women in the military. An enemy is not going to care.

Another greatly abused "entitlement" is FMLA, also known as Free My Lazy Ass.

Discrimination cannot be eliminated by more or different discrimination.

Perhaps it would help if the individual responsible for proven discrimination were made to pay. In government agencies, generally the individual is immune and the agency must be sued. When a worker wins, the government pays, the manager doesn't care, the agency doesn't care, and they can continue on as if it were a tax paid by somebody else.

There must be a deterrent in addition to making the person whole.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-18   0:05:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#86. To: Dakmar, robin, mirage (#63)

I don't remember where I first heard it, but "social justice" is one of those phrases puts a kink in my neckbone, I think it come from Ford Foundation.

The phrase is quite old and associated with Catholic teaching. I'm not sure where Father Coughlin got the term from, or if he coined it, but he set up the National Union for Social Justice in 1934 and published a national paper called Social Justice. I guess the meaning or intent has changed somewhat over the course of time.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/holocaust/peopleevents/pandeAMEX96.html

Reverend Charles E. Coughlin (1891-1979)

In November of 1934, Coughlin set up his own organization, the National Union for Social Justice. Two years later he began publishing a nationally circulating paper called "Social Justice" and, as his public identification with Roosevelt's New Deal politics waned, he began to seek closer grounds with some of the most right-wing and reactionary groups in the country.

Although anti-Semitic themes appeared in some of Coughlin's speeches fairly early in his career, it wasn't until the late 1930s that the priest's rhetoric became increasingly filled with attacks on Jews. By 1938, the pages of "Social Justice" were frequently filled with accusations about Jewish control of America's financial institutions. In the summer of that year, Coughlin published a version of "The Protocols of the Elders of Zion." A virulently anti-Semitic piece of propaganda that had originated in Russia at the turn of the century, the "Protocols" accused Jews of planning to seize control of the world. Jewish leaders were shocked by Coughlin's actions.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1975513/posts
Charles Edward Coughlin, Principles of the National Union of Social Justice (1936)
Voices of Protest: Huey Long, Father Coughlin, and the Great Depression via Spartacus | 1936 | Father Charles Coughlin

Posted on 02/24/2008 10:00:47 AM PST by The Forgotten Man

Establishing my principles upon upon this preamble, namely, that we are all creatures of a beneficent God, made to love and serve Him in this world and to enjoy Him forever in the next; and that all this world's wealth of field and forest, of mine and river has been bestowed upon us by a kind Father, therefore, I believe that wealth as we know it originates from the natural resources and from the labor which the sons of God expend upon these resources. It is all ours except for the harsh, cruel and grasping ways of wicked men who first concentrated wealth into the hands of a few, then dominated states and finally commenced to pit state against state in the frightful catastrophes of commercial warfare.

With this as a preamble, then, these following shall be the principles of social justice towards whose realization we must strive.

1. I believe in the right of liberty of conscience and liberty of education, not permitting the state to dictate either my worship to my God or my chosen avocation in life.

2.1 believe that every citizen willing to work and capable of working shall receive a just and living annual wage which will enable him to maintain and educate his family according to the standards of American decency.

3. I believe in nationalizing those public necessities which by their very nature are too important to be held in the control of private individuals. By these I mean banking, credit and currency, power, light, oil and natural gas and our God-given natural resources.

4. I believe in private ownership of all other property.

5. I believe in upholding the right to private property yet in controlling it for the public good.

6. I believe in the abolition of the privately owned Federal Reserve Banking system and in the establishment of a Government owned Central Bank.

7. I believe in rescuing from the hands of private owners the right to coin and regulate the value of money, which right must be restored to Congress where it belongs.

8. I believe that one of the chief duties of this Government owned Central Bank is to maintain the cost of living on an even keel and the repayment of dollar debts with equal value dollars.

9. I believe in the cost of production plus a fair profit for the farmer.

10. I believe not only in the right of the laboring man to organize in unions but also in the duty of the Government which that laboring man supports to facilitate and to protect these organizations against the vested interests of wealth and of intellect.

11 . I believe in the recall of all non-productive bonds and thereby in the alleviation of taxation.

12. I believe in the abolition of tax-exempt bonds.

13. I believe in the broadening of the base of taxation founded upon the ownership of wealth and the capacity to pay.

14. I believe in the simplification of government, and the further lifting of crushing taxation from the slender revenues of the laboring class.

15. I believe that in the event of a war for the defense of our nation and its liberties, there shall be a conscription of wealth as well as a conscription of men.

16. I believe in preferring the sanctity of human rights to the sanctity of property rights. I believe that the chief concern of government shall be for the poor because, as it is witnessed, the rich have ample means of their own to care for themselves.

These are my beliefs. These are the fundamentals of the organization which I present to you under the name of the NATIONAL UNION FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE. It is your privilege to reject or accept my beliefs; to follow me or repudiate me.

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-18   0:31:38 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#87. To: nolu_chan (#85)

There must be a deterrent in addition to making the person whole.

True, but the current system prohibits that and presumes discrimination while at the same time perpetuating it yet considering it a "good thing" to merely trade one victim for another.

I have some personal experience with being hauled in front of HR tribunals on BS charges, all of which were dismissed and the complainer was made to undergo the training instead.

Perhaps a situation of dual responsibility? A bogus charge results in a penalty and an actual charge results in a penalty.

There are a lot of bogus charges being thrown around and there has to be responsibility on both sides.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-18   0:31:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#88. To: nolu_chan (#86)

"Social Justice" comes from Latin American liberation theology which has been rejected by the Vatican.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-18   0:32:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#89. To: mirage (#88)

"Social Justice" comes from Latin American liberation theology which has been rejected by the Vatican.

My source, quoted below, is the official Catholic Catechism, as approved by Pope Paul II on August 15, 1997. Among other things, Part 3, Section 1, Chapter 2, Article 3, is entitled "Social Justice."

What is your source that social justice is from "Latin American liberation theology which has been rejected by the Vatican?"

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

The Catechism of the Catholic Church
Second Edition

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/aposletr.htm

APOSTOLIC LETTER
LAETAMUR MAGNOPERE

IN WHICH THE LATIN TYPICAL EDITION OF THE

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

IS APPROVED AND PROMULGATED

JOHN PAUL, BISHOP
SERVANT OF THE SERVANTS OF GOD
FOR EVERLASTING MEMORY

...

From Castel Gandolfo, August 15, 1997, the nineteenth year of the Pontificate.

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a1.htm

1888 It is necessary, then, to appeal to the spiritual and moral capacities of the human person and to the permanent need for his inner conversion, so as to obtain social changes that will really serve him. The acknowledged priority of the conversion of heart in no way eliminates but on the contrary imposes the obligation of bringing the appropriate remedies to institutions and living conditions when they are an inducement to sin, so that they conform to the norms of justice and advance the good rather than hinder it. [12]

1889 Without the help of grace, men would not know how "to discern the often narrow path between the cowardice which gives in to evil, and the violence which under the illusion of fighting evil only makes it worse."13 This is the path of charity, that is, of the love of God and of neighbor. Charity is the greatest social commandment. It respects others and their rights. It requires the practice of justice, and it alone makes us capable of it. Charity inspires a life of self-giving: "Whoever seeks to gain his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." [14]

[12] Cf. LG 36 [14] Lk 17:33.

-----

1916 As with any ethical obligation, the participation of all in realizing the common good calls for a continually renewed conversion of the social partners. Fraud and other subterfuges, by which some people evade the constraints of the law and the prescriptions of societal obligation, must be firmly condemned because they are incompatible with the requirements of justice. Much care should be taken to promote institutions that improve the conditions of human life. [33]

[33] Cf. GS 30 § 1.

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c2a3.htm#II

PART THREE
LIFE IN CHRIST

SECTION ONE
MAN'S VOCATION LIFE IN THE SPIRIT

CHAPTER TWO
THE HUMAN COMMUNION

ARTICLE 3
SOCIAL JUSTICE

1928 Society ensures social justice when it provides the conditions that allow associations or individuals to obtain what is their due, according to their nature and their vocation. Social justice is linked to the common good and the exercise of authority.

I. RESPECT FOR THE HUMAN PERSON

1929 Social justice can be obtained only in respecting the transcendent dignity of man. The person represents the ultimate end of society, which is ordered to him:

What is at stake is the dignity of the human person, whose defense and promotion have been entrusted to us by the Creator, and to whom the men and women at every moment of history are strictly and responsibly in debt.
-----

1938 There exist also sinful inequalities that affect millions of men and women. These are in open contradiction of the Gospel:

Their equal dignity as persons demands that we strive for fairer and more humane conditions. Excessive economic and social disparity between individuals and peoples of the one human race is a source of scandal and militates against social justice, equity, human dignity, as well as social and international peace. [44]
[44] CS 29 § 3.

-----

1943 Society ensures social justice by providing the conditions that allow associations and individuals to obtain their due.

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a7.htm#II

III. THE SOCIAL DOCTRINE OF THE CHURCH

2419 "Christian revelation... promotes deeper understanding of the laws of social living." [199] The Church receives from the Gospel the full revelation of the truth about man. When she fulfills her mission of proclaiming the Gospel, she bears witness to man, in the name of Christ, to his dignity and his vocation to the communion of persons. She teaches him the demands of justice and peace in conformity with divine wisdom.

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modern times with "communism" or "socialism." She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor. [207] Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for "there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market." [208] Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended.

IV. ECONOMIC ACTIVITY AND SOCIAL JUSTICE

2426 The development of economic activity and growth in production are meant to provide for the needs of human beings. Economic life is not meant solely to multiply goods produced and increase profit or power; it is ordered first of all to the service of persons, of the whole man, and of the entire human community. Economic activity, conducted according to its own proper methods, is to be exercised within the limits of the moral order, in keeping with social justice so as to correspond to God's plan for man. [209]

V. JUSTICE AND SOLIDARITY AMONG NATIONS

2442 It is not the role of the Pastors of the Church to intervene directly in the political structuring and organization of social life. This task is part of the vocation of the lay faithful, acting on their own initiative with their fellow citizens. Social action can assume various concrete forms. It should always have the common good in view and be in conformity with the message of the Gospel and the teaching of the Church. It is the role of the laity "to animate temporal realities with Christian commitment, by which they show that they are witnesses and agents of peace and justice." [231]

2459 Man is himself the author, center, and goal of all economic and social life. The decisive point of the social question is that goods created by God for everyone should in fact reach everyone in accordance with justice and with the help of charity.

[199] GS 23 § 1.
[207] Cf. CA 10; 13; 44.
[208] CA 34.
[209] Cf. GS 64.
[231] SRS 47 § 6; cf. 42.

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#III

III. OFFENSES AGAINST TRUTH

2479 Detraction and calumny destroy the reputation and honor of one's neighbor. Honor is the social witness given to human dignity, and everyone enjoys a natural right to the honor of his name and reputation and to respect. Thus, detraction and calumny offend against the virtues of justice and charity.

V. THE USE OF THE SOCIAL COMMUNICATIONS MEDIA

2495 "It is necessary that all members of society meet the demands of justice and charity in this domain. They should help, through the means of social communication, in the formation and diffusion of sound public opinion." [287] Solidarity is a consequence of genuine and right communication and the free circulation of ideas that further knowledge and respect for others.

VI. TRUTH, BEAUTY, AND SACRED ART

2512 Society has a right to information based on truth, freedom, and justice. One should practice moderation and discipline in the use of the social communications media.

[287] IM 8.

-----

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p4s2a3.htm#IV

2832 As leaven in the dough, the newness of the kingdom should make the earth "rise" by the Spirit of Christ. [119] This must be shown by the establishment of justice in personal and social, economic and international relations, without ever forgetting that there are no just structures without people who want to be just.

[119] Cf. AA 5.

-----

nolu_chan  posted on  2008-03-18   13:15:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#90. To: nolu_chan (#86)

Most interesting, thanks for this info.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-18   13:32:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#91. To: nolu_chan, aristeides (#89)

Thanks for this source also.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-03-18   13:33:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#92. To: nolu_chan (#89)

What is your source that social justice is from "Latin American liberation theology which has been rejected by the Vatican?"

My priest.

America is not at war. The military is at war. America is at the mall and the Congress is out to lunch.

mirage  posted on  2008-03-18   14:48:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


TopPage UpFull ThreadPage DownBottom/Latest


[Home]  [Headlines]  [Latest Articles]  [Latest Comments]  [Post]  [Sign-in]  [Mail]  [Setup]  [Help]