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Title: Saint Obama on the 2nd amendment
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Published: Mar 25, 2008
Author: BHO
Post Date: 2008-03-25 17:19:57 by Jethro Tull
Keywords: None
Views: 10110
Comments: 170
Dear Friend, Thank you for contacting me about gun laws and the Second Amendment. I appreciate hearing from you on this important issue. Americans broadly agree that guns must be kept from those who may pose a threat, and that the rights of legitimate hunters and sportsmen should be protected. We must work to ensure that guns do not fall into the hands of criminals or the mentally ill through an effective background check system. We also have to strike a reasonable balance between public safety and sportsmen's rights. I will continue to work for effective gun laws, including reinstatement of the assault weapons ban that the last Congress allowed to expire, and effective law enforcement. I will also speak out against the culture of violence that traps so many of our young people. Thank you again for contacting me on this important issue. Sincerely, Barack Obama*
Poster Comment: Did you know that it was written for *"..sportsman's rights.."*? Saint Barack: the final nail in the coffin of America.
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#1. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
you have to be kidding me...what was that about the constitution?
From Ron Paul to the above is the political leap I can't get my head around.
Obama would want us to get our heads examined.
Not that Hillary or McCain would be any better. It's 2008. Time is ticking away for the Republic.
What Obama is advocating here, and what the Obamaphiles choose to ignore, is that the above means that our medical/pharma records would be studied by government for signs of "mental illness." This is the socialist way and one some here are cheering for.
and who gets to define "mentally ill?" the same Obama et al who interpreted the 2nd Amendment? A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. you see anything about sportsmen there? ;)
Only if hunting corrupt politicians ever becomes a sport.
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
Fear of govt. is a form of mental illness
Translation... Vote for me sucker and only criminals and the Gestapo will have guns.
Vote for me sucker and only criminals and the Gestapo will have guns. That's exactly right, but hell, it sells. It's a damn shame it sells w/constitutionalists, but that's another story for another day.
LOL
Ever notice that the most anti gun people have security people around them, "with guns"?
C'mon Jethro. More like the records kept on pedophiles but less open to the public. Something like the Virginia Tech weirdo, past due in the doing. The fear mongers have done a real job on y'all.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others. ...
Many of those on this site who want Obama to be president only care about one thing and that is his promise of "free" healthcare. We may be stripped of all of our weapons, forced to wear black pajamas, have all personal property taken away and live and work where we are told to live and work, but by golly we'll have "free" healthcare and that's all that matters!!!
Hold on iconoclast, lets debate this to a logical conclusion. Before one can own a gun, Obama is proposing that some level of government determine who is mentally ill. This can only be accomplished by a new reporting addition (maybe our doctors or pharmacists) to some govt. agency, who would then enter that info into an even larger 2nd amendment data base. To be anti-govt. is to be mentally ill, ergo, I'd have no guns along with most others on this forum. That's the policy of the man you're swooning for.
Keep in mind that if the sporting use of firearms is the only legit use for them (like Cheney's high dollar 28 ga Perazzi shotgun for quail and lawyers) then they can be broken down and locked up so as to render them useless for defense. (or other unmentionable nefariousness like "keeping govt in check") Even now as the SCOTUS is hearing the case about the DC handgun ban the district's lawyers are countering claims that residents are defenseless with the fact that long guns are permitted in the district. What they aren't saying is the law requires those guns to be disassembled and stored and any resident who uses a long gun to shoot an intruder is automatically guilty of the crime of having the firearm operable, which is illegal in the district. Also, if the Feds abolish hunting on federal land and cut funding through Pittman-Robertson to the states' fish and game departments, hunting will collapse and with it the "legit need" for most personal firearms. (Trap, skeet and sporting clays wouldn't be enough reason to keep firearms at home, but rich folks could keep them in gun clubs)
Not swooning, stooping for.
I can't believe what I'm seeing from otherwise political savvy people.
How is this different from our current gun laws?
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
Complete with Clintonian kneepads.
Seven years ago I pissed off people on a gun board when I said that the day would come when they'd trade their guns and mine (by snitching) for "free health care". I can hear it now; "Hell, I don't hunt anymore and what does he need them dam guns for? Ah need mah health care more than he needs them dam guns! Where's that phone number, Agnes?""
hmmmm...that's a logical extension. sportsmen revolt!
Currently, people other than folks looking to exercise their "sportsman's rights" can buy, own and possess guns.
The operant phrase is "reasonable balance" which means that any firearm capable of scaring cops and politicians will be banned, and we'll end up with single shot .22 rifles and ammo with unique serial numbers on each cartridge. But, once the resulting crime wave (committed with stolen .22s) hits the news (one jewelry store will be enough) they will be banned, too.
LOL! Gee...I can't imagine why they'd get pissed!! LOL! How true it is though.
The state fish and game departments are in real trouble now because of two things. Unseasonably warm winters have greatly reduced the revenues from the sale of Gore Tex and other outdoor goods that are subject to the Pittman Robertson excise tax, so the states are already receiving a reduced share of federal matching funds from this earmarked tax. And, the economy is so bad that many folks are hunting less or not at all and the sale of licenses is falling off. The states operate many projects over several budget cycles, including research and maintaining and acquiring (through purchase or lease) new hunting areas. The funding crisis will begin to hurt all wildlife as areas are overtaken with woody growth because there's no money for helicopter or radiarc spraying of ROUNDUP to beat back the fast growing nuisance plants. And without subsidies many landowners and farmers may fail to leave "no spray zones" so quail and other ground nesting game can have lots of yummy insects to feed their young. In short, hunting may soon cease altogether, so we'd better not let the bastards link our "rights" to this fickle premise for "legit ownership of firearms."
To hear his supporters tell it this Nimrod knows something about the Constitution. It is not readily apparent, is it?
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end. And you found that in what psychiatric text book? You (and "most others" here) have been diagnosed and prescribed psychotropic drugs for being anti-govt.? I might be open to considering the first half of that query, but not the anti-govt. part. ;-)
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
Got spoof? -)
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
Not even a nice try, Jethro. Has nothing to do with your spoof link.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
The spoof link has nothing to do with his restricting guns to sportsmen. And yes, our government causes me anxiety which is a phobia which would qualify me for gun removal. Now please.......go peddle this douche on DU, ok?
Dear BO - F**k you, a 'Sportsman.'
People like icon that are enabling Obama. They suffer from leftwingitis or white guilt or both.
In spades :)
Oh, and thanks for the GWB link.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
Go peddle your dis-information on FR.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
I'm tired, I'm old, and I'm pissed enough about all the assaults on our Second Amendment. It is what it is, and it means what it says - in plain English. Really, there are no court cases needed on this one. imo
Barack Obama: the cost of the American Constitution was blood of free RIFLEMEN: "If the Union was formed by the accession of States, then the Union may be dissolved by the secession of States." ---Daniel Webster, US Senate, Feb. 15, 1833
Icon, you typify the Obamaphile that dwells here. You're so eager to see this crud elected, you gladly overlook his flaws, which are legion, not to mention un-American. I have no idea what drives you folks, but it isn't any degree of political acumen. I'm glad I stand alone from groups and most people. With each passing day this nation spins deeper into the crapper because walking, talking morons think the electoral process is on the level. I'm convinced there is no information Obamaphiles could be shown that would sway them off course. You're all nothing more than FReepers twice removed.
Jim, I'm neither a sportsman or a hunter and if some creep decides only sportsmen should have guns in America, I will shoot anyone he sends who tries to disarm me. I hope others feel the same and aren't afraid to say so. That's a real revolution and not some vaporized tally in a voting booth.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
This Chinese punk is a tribute to liberalism, specifically their love affair with "gun-free zones." Obama is a huge supporter of these free fire zones, right?
He's a tribute to your brand of narrow-minded non-thinking and contemporary America's incompetence .... the shooter's mental records were kept secret and his bizarre behavior was ignored.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
And how should our government keep said mental records? Please explain the mechanics in some detail, or at least to the best of your ability.
I have to admit that I took a certain delight in aggravating those old socialists who believe themselves to be patriots.
I've just declared shooting politicians a sport.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
FOR THE RECORD: IT'S AGAINST THE LAW TO THREATEN TO OVERTHROW THE GOVT BY FORCE. This is a discussion board not a mosh pit for violent psychos, and it's not your place to cast 4um into disrepute with such declarations. Do you even reside in the US? If not then, please stop trying to initiate violence during which you will have nothing to lose or in which you'll have nothing to contribute.
Paranoid much? It was a fucking joke, take your medicine.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
If that's your idea of humor then you're a fucking idiot. Knock it off or get used to me getting in your ass every time.
Fine, are you going to get on the case of everyone who has ever posted "Is it time yet, Claire?" also?
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
If you think advocating the murder of Americans is humorous, then I ask you again, DO YOU EVEN LIVE IN AMERICA? Americans can take this country back without firing a shot, and we don't need selfish, maladjusted, arrested development outpatients advocating the last resort before we even start to act through peaceful means. If you want to invite govt surveillance then start your own website; "WE BE THE PSYCHOS! NOW OPEN FOR BIZNESS! Do you have a gripe with elected officials? Then why not just kill them?"_by DAKMAR the anonymous chickenshit coward-instigator-agent provocateur
I get the sportsman connection, Dak. And anyone who knows your sense of humor gets it. BTW, wasn't it Pat Robertson who called for the assassination of Chavez for political sport? On his Christian Broadcasting Network no less? Or perhaps you were alluding to our esteemed VP who shot his best friend and confidant while sporting? My statement stands and I don't give a rats ass who likes it or not; the day this government attempts to disarm me is the day I say no. If anyone here thinks the 2nd is about anything less then to fight back against a tyrannical govt. then Obama and his ilk have completed their mission.
Judging by the thread, I'd say they've already won. Years of conditioning have finally convinced most people to work within the very system that is their enemy and that any "hotheads" should be turned into the local DHS office. When the end comes in this nation I see the farcical view of people being crushed under the tank treads while pleading with their last breath that things can still be resolved via political process. At the same time they'll hurl insults and scorn at the few people who are brave and prudent enough to try prying open the commander's hatch to heave a molotov inside. The thugs in DC can call for the destruction of nations simply because we have spare bombs sitting around, sing "bomb bomb Iran", entertain the idea of "limited" nuclear strikes, and look the American people in the eye and say "your opinion means nothing"; That's okay. ...but make a joke about hunting your congressman for sport and you're the nut that needs to be locked up. I can't decide if Americans are the biggest cowards God ever made or has the majority of the population truly gone insane.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me. "If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.
you are so dead on in your comments. the irony of this is that some of us have allowed the real meaning of the 2nd--which is to protect we the people from a tyrannical government/politicians--to believing that it merely protects hunters...and in so doing, some of us have allowed them to abandon the all important 1stA. pathetic.
Pathetic indeed. The sole reason I shall never, while I'm alive, relinquish my arms is so that I have options against an illegal and evil shadow government which cares not a whit for me, mine or my nation.
Our last hope for peace As though without him we'd be sitting pretty? Between the 3, we're simply choosing the last rites we prefer at the nation's funeral, and to his credit, Obama is a good speaker and could do a good job there.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
Well, Americans need their heads examined so that ain't a bad idea.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
Actually, that is Dubya who has enforced mandatory psychological "help" for children. ACTION ALERT - Mandatory Mental Health Screening for Children The American tradition of parents deciding what is best for their children is, yet again, under attack. The pharmaceutical industry has convinced President Bush to support mandatory mental-health screening for every child in America, including preschool children, and the industry is now working to convince Congress as well. But mandatory screening alone is not what the pharmaceutical industry wants. The real payoff for the drug companies is the forced drugging of children that will result -- as we learned tragically with Ritalin -- even when parents refuse. It's an old Bolshevik trick. After all, the NeoCons are the idealogical children of Trotsky.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
obama offers nothing. in fact, the worst with his 2A stance.
Obama offers Clinton a lock on 99 per cent of the black vote.
1Associated Press, "Research finds Cheney, Obama distant cousins," October 17, 2007. sportsmen's rights.
#2. To: christine (#1)
sportsmen's rights.
#3. To: Jethro Tull (#2)
We must work to ensure that guns do not fall into the hands of criminals or the mentally ill through an effective background check system.
#4. To: Arator, iconoclast, sportsmen (#0)
#5. To: christine (#4)
#6. To: buckeye, christine, all (#3)
or the mentally ill
#7. To: Jethro Tull, buckeye (#6)
#8. To: christine (#7)
you see anything about sportsmen there? ;)
#9. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
(Edited)
The official Soviet psychiatry allegedly abused the diagnosis of sluggishly progressing schizophrenia, a special form of the illness that supposedly affects only the person's social behavior, with no trace of other traits: "most frequently, ideas about a struggle for truth and justice are formed by personalities with a paranoid structure," according to the Moscow Serbsky Institute professors (a quote [4] from Vladimir Bukovsky's archives). Some of them had high rank in the MVD, such as the infamous Danil Luntz, who was characterized by Viktor Nekipelov as "no better than the criminal doctors who performed inhuman experiments on the prisoners in Nazi concentration camps" [4].
#10. To: buckeye, christine, fear of government is a form of mental illness, so NO GUNS FOR YOU (#9)
#11. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
We must work to ensure that guns do not fall into the hands of criminals or the mentally ill through an effective background check system. We also have to strike a reasonable balance between public safety and sportsmen's rights
#12. To: Cynicom (#11)
Translation...
#13. To: Jethro Tull (#10)
#14. To: Jethro Tull (#12)
#15. To: Jethro Tull (#6)
What Obama is advocating here, and what the Obamaphiles choose to ignore, is that the above means that our medical/pharma records would be studied by government for signs of "mental illness."
#16. To: Cynicom (#14)
#17. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#18. To: iconoclast (#15)
#19. To: Jethro Tull, chrstine (#0)
(Edited)
Did you know that it was written for *"..sportsman's rights.."*?
#20. To: Jethro Tull (#18)
#21. To: Hayek Fan (#17)
#22. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
We must work to ensure that guns do not fall into the hands of criminals or the mentally ill through an effective background check system. We also have to strike a reasonable balance between public safety and sportsmen's rights.
#23. To: Cynicom (#20)
Not swooning, stooping for.
#24. To: Hayek Fan (#17)
Many of those on this site who want Obama to be president only care about one thing and that is his promise of "free" healthcare. We may be stripped of all of our weapons, forced to wear black pajamas, have all personal property taken away and live and work where we are told to live and work, but by golly we'll have "free" healthcare and that's all that matters!!!
#25. To: HOUNDDAWG (#19)
Also, if the Feds abolish hunting on federal land and cut funding through Pittman-Robertson to the states' fish and game departments, hunting will collapse and with it the "legit need" for most personal firearms.
#26. To: robin (#22)
#27. To: robin (#22)
How is this different from our current gun laws?
#28. To: HOUNDDAWG (#24)
(Edited)
I can hear it now; "Hell, I don't hunt anymore and what does he need them dam guns for? Ah need mah health care more than he needs them dam guns! Where's that phone number, Agnes?""
#29. To: christine (#25)
#30. To: christine (#1)
you have to be kidding me...what was that about the constitution?
Lord Acton
#31. To: Jethro Tull (#18)
To be anti-govt. is to be mentally ill, ergo, I'd have no guns along with most others on this forum.
#32. To: Jethro Tull (#10)
Your link
#33. To: iconoclast (#31)
#34. To: Jethro Tull (#33)
#35. To: iconoclast (#34)
#36. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#37. To: lodwick (#36)
#38. To: lodwick (#36)
#39. To: Jethro Tull (#33)
Got Obama, Sportsman?
#40. To: Jethro Tull (#35)
Now please.......go peddle this douche on DU, ok?
#41. To: Cynicom, JT, 'Sportsmen and wimmen.' (#37)
#42. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#43. To: iconoclast (#39)
#44. To: lodwick (#41)
#45. To: X-15 (#42)
the cost of
the American Constitution was blood of free RIFLEMEN the life of a VA Tech professor and son of an old congregant friend of mine was the work of this dude. 
#46. To: iconoclast (#45)
#47. To: Jethro Tull (#46)
(Edited)
This Chinese punk is a tribute to liberalism
#48. To: iconoclast (#47)
#49. To: Hayek Fan (#28)
LOL! Gee...I can't imagine why they'd get pissed!! LOL! How true it is though.
#50. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
#51. To: Dakmar, Jethro Tull, christine, rowdee, robin, Diana, ghostdogtxn, aristeides (#50)
I've just declared shooting politicians a sport.
#52. To: HOUNDDAWG (#51)
#53. To: Dakmar (#52)
#54. To: HOUNDDAWG (#53)
#55. To: Dakmar (#54)
#56. To: Dakmar (#50)
I've just declared shooting politicians a sport.
#57. To: Jethro Tull (#56)
If anyone here thinks the 2nd is about anything less then to fight back against a tyrannical govt. then Obama and his ilk have completed their mission.
#58. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#57)
#59. To: christine (#58)
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#60. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
Saint Barack: the final nail in the coffin of America.
#61. To: buckeye (#3)
Obama would want us to get our heads examined.
#62. To: buckeye (#3)
Obama would want us to get our heads examined.
September 7, 2004
#63. To: Pinguinite (#60)
#64. To: christine (#63)
#65. To: Pinguinite, All (#60)
Rather than fall under the trance of his oratory skills, please look at his deeds and then tell me what a swell guy he is.
The U.S. Senate Debated:
Voted: Supporting concealed carry for citizens10 Banning many common semi-automatic firearms11 Disallowing self-defense in towns where guns are banned12 Imposing one handgun a month restrictions13 Requiring lock up your safety trigger locks14 Protecting gun dealers from frivolous lawsuits15 Outlawing gun confiscations during a national emergency16 Squelching the free speech rights of gun owners17 Restricting the interstate sales of firearms18 Repealing the gun ban in Washington, DC19
2Ibid.
3O.Kay Henderson, "Three leading Democrats talk about gun control," Radio Iowa News, April 22, 2007.
4James Oliphant and Michael J. Higgins, "Court to hear gun case," Chicago Tribune, November 20, 2007.
5Illinois State Senate, vote on SB 2165 (41-16), May 25, 2004.
6Obama says, "National legislation will prevent other states' flawed concealed-weapons laws from threatening the safety of Illinois residents." David Mendell, "Democratic hopefuls vary a bit on death penalty," Chicago Tribune, February 20, 2004.
7See the Gun Owners of America fact sheet at http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm.
8John Chase, "Keyes, Obama are far apart on guns; Views on assault weapons at odds," Chicago Tribune, September 15, 2004.
9Senators Chuck Schumer and John Kerry had both cosponsored S. 1431 in 2003, a bill that would have banned any semi-auto shotgun that also contained a pistol grip, which the bill defined as "a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip." According to that definition, just about any semi-automatic shotgun would be banned.
10See supra note 6.
11About the so-called "assault weapons" ban, Obama says, "I believe we need to renew -- not roll back -- this common sense gun law." See supra note 8.
12See supra note 5.
13As a state senator, "Obama regularly supported gun-control measures, including a ban on semiautomatic 'assault weapons' and a limit on handgun purchases to one a month." "Obama Record May be Gold Mine for Critics," Associated Press, January 17, 2007.
14On July 28, 2005, Senator Obama voted for a provision requiring gun dealers to include the sale of a lock-up-your-safety device with every handgun sold. The amendment, offered by Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI), passed by a vote of 70-30. The provision amended the gun makers' protection act (S. 397).
15On July 29, 2005, Senator Obama voted against S. 397, a bill that was designed to put an end to the frivolous lawsuits that were threatening to put many gun dealers out of business. While an argument could be made that a pro-gun Senator might vote against this bill because it contained a lock-up- your-safety provision (see supra note 14), the fact that Obama voted in favor of that trigger lock amendment (but against the overall bill) indicates his real animus against helping gun dealers protect themselves from the anti- gun lawsuits that were aimed at driving them into bankruptcy.
16On July 13, 2006, Sen. Obama voted for Emergency Powers language that saw only 16 of the most ardent anti-gun senators vote against it. The amendment provides that no money can be used by federal agents to confiscate firearms during a declared state of emergency. The amendment was added to the Department of Homeland Security appropriations bill (HR 5441).
17On January 18, 2007, Senator Obama voted against a pro-gun amendment to strike language in S. 1 that would infringe upon the free speech rights of groups like Gun Owners of America. The amendment, which passed, struck requirements that would have required GOA to monitor and report on its communications with its members, and could easily have led to government demands for GOA's membership list (a.k.a. registration).
18Obama has frequently made statements which indicate that he would restrict the interstate sale of firearms. For example, he told the NAACP that, "We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit." Senator Barack Obama, at the NAACP Presidential Primary Forum, July 12, 2007.
19See supra note 4.
#66. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#57)
Great post, POJ. There's hope with folks like you around. If the day comes that we can't state the obvious (about the 2nd Amendment) then that's the day we put self limits on our 1st.
#67. To: Jethro Tull (#2) (Edited)
No mystery. It all revolves around one single, but very important issue not addressed on this thread: the WAR. Those that recognize that "War is the health of the state" believe that once interventionism is halted, winning against the state and restoring the Bill of Rights including the Second Amendment will be somewhat easier. Those that support Obama winning are at least hoping he will be the least interventionist of the three front runners. Whether their hope is misplaced or not is besides the point. It is the war, and nothing else, that is the prime mover here. From Ron Paul to the above is the political leap I can't get my head around.
From Two Party System... ...to Two Family System.
#68. To: iconoclast (#45)
And what say you about the cost of life here? Or here? the cost of the life of a VA Tech professor and son of an old congregant friend of mine was the work of this dude.
You appear to be a major trouble maker...and I'm getting really pissed. - GoldiLox, 7/27/2006
#69. To: christine (#63)
Obama has energized the Democratic base. I agree with you about his 2A stance. And as a pro-lifer I hate his abortion stance. But McCain thinks bombing babies, children and pregnant women is just fine. I keep comparing him to Hillary and McCain. Of course, he will never be a Ron Paul. But I do not believe he has the lobbyists that the other two have. Also, he has a date to get out of Iraq and has promised to restore habeas corpus. The other two have not. Obama was against the Iraq war before it started, he attacked Perle, Wolfowitz and Rove by name in that 2002 speech. He is far, far from perfect, but stands out against Hillary and McCain (especially McCain).
obama offers nothing. in fact, the worst with his 2A stance.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
#70. To: HOUNDDAWG, Dakmar (#51)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#71. To: PnbC (#67)
NO IT IS NOT! It is PRECISELY people like these S-U-C-K-E-R-S that play the illegal shadow government's game that is the reason we're watching yet another ridiculous kabuki dance...
Whether their hope is misplaced or not is besides the point.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#72. To: robin (#69)
...but continued to support funding for it. No he's just "For the troops". RIIIIGHT. LOLOLAY Obama was against the Iraq war before it started
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#73. To: FormerLurker (#68)
I suggest having a couple of worthless throwaways to hand over to the goobermint when the day comes...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#74. To: FOH (#72)
As has been pointed out, by me and others, it is NOT unreasonable to support the troops once they have been deployed and during the occupation. Would you rather they starve, be w/o equipment, ammo, water? Obama has given a firm date to get them out of Iraq, Hillary has not. And McCain wants 100 years of war.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
#75. To: robin (#74)
Do you even know anything that you talk about????
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#76. To: FOH (#75)
I guess you would have preferred our troops not have everything they need for protection while in Iraq. Obama defends votes in favor of Iraq funding ---------------------------------------------------------- And on torture and Gitmo and habeas corpus, Barack Obama: In the five years that the President's system of military tribunals has existed, not one terrorist has been tried. Not one has been convicted. And in the end, the Supreme Court of the United found the whole thing unconstitutional, which is why we're here today. We could have fixed all of this in a way that allows us to detain and interrogate and try suspected terrorists while still protecting the accidentally accused from spending their lives locked away in Guantanamo Bay. Easily. This was not an either-or question. * Instead of allowing this President - or any President - to decide what does and does not constitute torture, we could have left the definition up to our own laws and to the Geneva Conventions, as we would have if we passed the bill that the Armed Services committee originally offered. * Instead of detainees arriving at Guantanamo and facing a Combatant Status Review Tribunal that allows them no real chance to prove their innocence with evidence or a lawyer, we could have developed a real military system of justice that would sort out the suspected terrorists from the accidentally accused. * And instead of not just suspending, but eliminating, the right of habeas corpus - the seven century-old right of individuals to challenge the terms of their own detention, we could have given the accused one chance - one single chance - to ask the government why they are being held and what they are being charged with. --------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have been very clear even as a candidate that, once we were in, that we were going to have some responsibility to make it work as best we could, and more importantly that our troops had the best resources they needed to get home safely," Obama, an Illinois Democrat, told reporters in a conference call. "So I don't think there is any contradiction there."
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
#77. To: ghostdogtxn (#70)
i don't agree. there was nothing wrong with what Dak said. first of all, it was a joke in context with the topic of this thread. secondly, the 2A means exactly what it says. A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed. it's for the people's protection against a tyrannical government. we have every right to say it.
#78. To: Jethro Tull (#66)
Sad to say I've been seeing that since the late 1990's. More than a few email lists and forums I were on had verboten topics because "they" could be listening and "they" would shut down the lists and forums. On one the subject of what to do if FEDGOV showed up to confiscate your food and medical supplies in a survival situation came up. Anyone who answered along the lines of "feed em to the hogs!" was banned. Anyone who was banned was sent off with a hale of "Get lost, KOOK!" posts. Such a paradox. Stating that you will defend you own bests interests to the last is a crime. Daydreaming about sitting in the gunner's seat of a Bradley and pumping 25mm rounds into ragheads (or American hating hippies) all day means you love America and the terrorists haven't won.
If the day comes that we can't state the obvious (about the 2nd Amendment) then that's the day we put self limits on our 1st.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me.
"If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.
#79. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#78)
#80. To: christine (#63)
As if the other 2 will do the country any favors? It'll be one of the 3 and all will be domestic disasters. But as a country, we have an obligation to respect the people of other countries and end the empire state. Is it moral to vote for a warmonger just to protect our 2A rights if it means more death and destruction in Iraq and Iran? I say no. The USA is dead anyway as Ron Paul won't be president so what difference does the 2A make anyway? It's already been shot to hell anyway.
obama offers nothing. in fact, the worst with his 2A stance.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
#81. To: christine (#77)
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡
#82. To: Pinguinite (#80)
Do you possess any firearms for your defense down there in Ecuador?
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#83. To: Jethro Tull (#35)
World Communists have sanctuary on 4um. That's the purpose of the site, FREEDOM. Even for pipple that want MINE and MY FAMILY'S FREEDOM. And I have the FREEDOM to mock and ridicule them for BEING World Communists...
Now please.......go peddle this douche on DU, ok?
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#84. To: Critter (#8)
An idea whose time has truly arrived. Please let me know when the first round of competition begins.
Only if hunting corrupt politicians ever becomes a sport.
#85. To: robin (#62)
The NeoCons didn't invent the idea. Your World Socialist/Communist comrades did... They might perfect it though, since you can't see that NeoCons like Bush and McCain are on the same trajectory of destruction for America/ns as the NeoCommmies like Stalinist Hitlery and Black Panther Marxist Che Obama will be. The funniest thing is your claiming that your life requires a 'clear mind'...LOLOL
ACTION ALERT - Mandatory Mental Health Screening for Children
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#86. To: Jethro Tull (#79)
If 1,000 high level cabal-ers disappeared suddenly, the illegal shadow government might run away...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#87. To: Pinguinite (#80)
yes but, imho, our only response should be a complete rejection of the system and the national party. by voting for them, we are ENDORSING the fraud and showing that we'll accept more of the same. if you feel like you must vote, at least write in Ron Paul or the Consitution Party candidate.
#88. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#78)
I'm banned from the High Road for stating to obvious.
More than a few email lists and forums I were on had verboten topics because "they" could be listening and "they" would shut down the lists and forums.
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#89. To: FOH (#82)
At the moment, no. It's not a Constitutional right here, but permits can be had. While it may be tempting to say Ecuador is a lessor country in that respect, the sum total of paperwork BS for getting a firearm may well be comparable to the USA. It may be even easier, but I won't know until purchase time comes.
Do you possess any firearms for your defense down there in Ecuador?
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
#90. To: christine (#87)
I'm writing in Ron Paul.
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#91. To: christine (#87)
I would vote for Ron Paul regardless, as voting for him makes an appropriate statement and nets the most positive good even though he would not win, but between H, O and M, it seems O has the most likelihood of ending the ME intervention/invasion. Maybe he wouldn't, but he seems more likely to.
if you feel like you must vote, at least write in Ron Paul or the Consitution Party candidate.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
#92. To: Pinguinite (#91)
Stop emoting my friend! You have nothing to base this on...they're ALL ON THE SAME TEAM!
it seems O has the most likelihood of ending the ME intervention/invasion. Maybe he wouldn't, but he seems more likely to.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#93. To: Critter (#88)
what's the High Road?
#94. To: Critter (#8)
Just think how great it would be with no bag limit! And target-rich environments all over the country from the smallest hamlets to the huge metropolitan complexes. Yes indeed.
Only if hunting corrupt politicians ever becomes a sport.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
#95. To: Pinguinite (#80) (Edited)
The One World Monopolists will kill anyone that doesn't go along. All 3 are on the SAME TEAM! Their M.O.s might be varied, and YOUR MILEAGE may vary, but you're going to get the SAME GAME!!
Is it moral to vote for a warmonger just to protect our 2A rights if it means more death and destruction in Iraq and Iran?
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#96. To: James Deffenbach (#94)
Just think how great it would be with no bag limit! And target-rich environments all over the country from the smallest hamlets to the huge metropolitan complexes. Yes indeed.
You had me day dreaming for a moment!! ahaha
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#97. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#78)
Such a paradox. Stating that you will defend you own bests interests to the last is a crime. Daydreaming about sitting in the gunner's seat of a Bradley and pumping 25mm rounds into ragheads (or American hating hippies) all day means you love America and the terrorists haven't won. Hold on there, you can't just go around throwing out sound logic, it's detrimental to everything we were taught in government schools and might lead to people questioning authority....
On one the subject of what to do if FEDGOV showed up to confiscate your food and medical supplies in a survival situation came up. Anyone who answered along the lines of "feed em to the hogs!" was banned. Anyone who was banned was sent off with a hale of "Get lost, KOOK!" posts.
"If the Union was formed by the accession of States, then the Union may be dissolved by the secession of States." ---Daniel Webster, US Senate, Feb. 15, 1833
#98. To: FOH (#96)
Dreaming is good. I engage in it whenever possible.
Liberty is not a means to a higher political end. It is itself the highest political end.
Lord Acton
#99. To: ghostdogtxn (#70)
You're right, giant red flashing letters would have been much better.
I'm gonna have to go with HOUNDDAWG on this one, Dakmar. I'd suggest you edit your comment.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
#100. To: christine (#93)
A forum, supposedly for politically incorrect gun owners. It was started by Oleg Volk, who at one time, was quite a pro 2A guy, but seems to have sold his soul.
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#101. To: Dakmar (#50)
Start with critters with known ties to subversive, Constitution-hating institutions such as the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateralists and Bilderberg...for starters. The illegal shadow government bleeds, too.
I've just declared shooting politicians a sport.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#102. To: FOH (#101)
NOT!
Start with critters...
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#103. To: Dakmar, christine (#99)
That's why we're fortunate to have the 'edit' option on this fine site...
You're right, giant red flashing letters would have been much better.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#104. To: James Deffenbach (#94)
The next revolution is going to start with the assassination of some obscure, petty bureaucrat that pisses someone off big time, with petty bureaucratic bullshit. Then another, and another, until it steamrolls out of control.
And target-rich environments all over the country from the smallest hamlets to the huge metropolitan complexes.
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#105. To: FOH (#101)
What I really meant was that if politicians can change the meaning of the Constitution at will, which if you remember from civics class is a pact with We The People, maybe we can change the definition of "sports".
Start with critters with known ties to subversive, Constitution-hating institutions such as the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateralists and Bilderberg...for starters.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
#106. To: Critter (#102)
NOT! DOH! hehehe
Start with critters...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#107. To: FOH (#103)
You only have X amount of time to do so, two hours I think.
That's why we're fortunate to have the 'edit' option on this fine site...
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
#108. To: Dakmar (#105) (Edited)
Just surviving as a patriot American in Amerika has become a sport...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#109. To: Dakmar, christine (#107)
I believe it's as many edits as you wish within 3 hours of the 1st edit...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#110. To: Critter (#104)
UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCES (have you read it?)
#111. To: FOH (#109)
yes, you're correct.
#112. To: christine (#110)
Not yet. Maybe one of these days...
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#113. To: Jethro Tull, Dakmar, christine (#56)
I've been involved in several shooting situations, and if you had you'd know that sane, healthy people don't find anything humorous about shootings, and they don't solve ordinary political problems with unilateral gun play. JT, you advocated "shooting the bastards" in a recent discussion about abusive cops' treatment of protesters. Were you "joking", too? And, Pat Robertson is a fucking kook neocon religious fanatic. and, true patriots condemned his remarks. They certainly don't use him for cover. There are too many sickos who believe that the America they're trying to "restore" is one where any bureaucratic nuisance is met with a hail of bullets. That has never been the definition of freedom here and only silly shits who've never been in a shooting would say something that fucking stupid. Patriots don't shoot meter maids, city inspectors or even politicians as a form of collective punishment because A) it's morally wrong, and B) it will only result in draconian responses that make things worse. You can share your foxhole with sick little shits who joke about the very unfunny shooting of unarmed and unsuspecting politicians, but, don't be surprised if you get back shot by a sicko someday. I'm quite likely the best pistolero on this fucking board, and I don't ever joke about the business of war, because if and when it comes you and these assholes like Dakmar will see soon enough that there's not a goddam thing about it that's funny. And, Hell, if you were still on the job you'd be the first to arrest a protester for shooting a cop and for violating those fucked up NYC gun laws regardless of how legit the grievance against the police.
I get the sportsman connection, Dak. And anyone who knows your sense of humor gets it. BTW, wasn't it Pat Robertson who called for the assassination of Chavez for political sport? On his Christian Broadcasting Network no less? Or perhaps you were alluding to our esteemed VP who shot his best friend and confidant while sporting? My statement stands and I don't give a rats ass who likes it or not; the day this government attempts to disarm me is the day I say no. If anyone here thinks the 2nd is about anything less then to fight back against a tyrannical govt. then Obama and his ilk have completed their mission.
#114. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#57)
When the end comes in this nation I see the farcical view of people being crushed under the tank treads while pleading with their last breath that things can still be resolved via political process. At the same time they'll hurl insults and scorn at the few people who are brave and prudent enough to try prying open the commander's hatch to heave a molotov inside. The thugs in DC can call for the destruction of nations simply because we have spare bombs sitting around, sing "bomb bomb Iran", entertain the idea of "limited" nuclear strikes, and look the American people in the eye and say "your opinion means nothing"; That's okay. ...but make a joke about hunting your congressman for sport and you're the nut that needs to be locked up. I can't decide if Americans are the biggest cowards God ever made or has the majority of the population truly gone insane. Listen you fucking pussy, you will piss your pants and hide under your bed when the shit hits the fan. So, fuck off you two faced ass kisser!
Judging by the thread, I'd say they've already won. Years of conditioning have finally convinced most people to work within the very system that is their enemy and that any "hotheads" should be turned into the local DHS office.
#115. To: FOH, christine (#101)
The illegal shadow government bleeds, too. Why don't you name them and make up a death list? christine, are you getting this? This isn't about a patriot revolution. It's about forming an assassins' cult. Making sure they target unarmed and unsuspecting bureaucrats. After all, they wouldn't want to attack a special forces team and risk getting shot themselves, right? Fucking cowards.
Start with critters with known ties to subversive, Constitution-hating institutions such as the Council on Foreign Relations, Trilateralists and Bilderberg...for starters.
#116. To: HOUNDDAWG (#115)
You're a freakin GENIUS! A REAL SLEUTH YOU ARE there Dawg...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#117. To: Critter, christine (#104)
Only in your sick boy fantasies. Here's another one, chris. Geez, this place is a magnet for internet assassins and commandos, ain't it? You could just as easily visualize an awakening where Americans take back this country, but, that doesn't do a thing for you because there's no Hollywood glam gun play, right? Try a real shootout sometime. (Please don't back shoot a meter maid) You may find that you lose your taste for it, and would actually prefer the harder road of winning the people over instead of murdering those who pose obstacles to your goals. Hell, that's what the Clintons do. If they have a problem they kill the sonofabitch. And, they have more enemies than ever as will you if you try that to solve America's problems.
The next revolution is going to start with the assassination of some obscure, petty bureaucrat that pisses someone off big time, with petty bureaucratic bullshit. Then another, and another, until it steamrolls out of control.
#118. To: FOH (#116)
It didn't take much to show your lack of intellectual prowess. Stay out this okay, Sonny? The grownups are talking.
#119. To: HOUNDDAWG (#118)
So why are you at the kiddie table, nut breath?
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#120. To: FOH (#119)
I've said what I need to say to you and I don't cross swords with ignorance. If you wanna play I'll be happy to shut you down, though. DO YOU?
#121. To: HOUNDDAWG (#120)
After you go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut, then walk down to your local PD and turn in your firearms, THEN prostrate yourself before the man...THEN we can talk you big bag of douche.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#122. To: FOH (#121)
Sorry. Your post is below the minimum intelligence threshhold. Try again! HAH!
After you go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut, then walk down to your local PD and turn in your firearms, THEN prostrate yourself before the man...THEN we can talk you big bag of douche.
#123. To: HOUNDDAWG (#122) (Edited)
Dou're Yrunk!
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#124. To: HOUNDDAWG (#113)
Sad.
And, Hell, if you were still on the job you'd be the first to arrest a protester for shooting a cop and for violating those fucked up NYC gun laws regardless of how legit the grievance against the police.
#125. To: HOUNDDAWG (#113)
Probably not. MotherF*_cker.
I'm quite likely the best pistolero on this fucking board
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#126. To: FOH (#123)
#127. To: Jethro Tull (#124)
Cutting to close to the bone, eh?
And, Hell, if you were still on the job you'd be the first to arrest a protester for shooting a cop and for violating those fucked up NYC gun laws regardless of how legit the grievance against the police.
Never swear "allegiance" to anything other than the 'right to change your mind'!
#128. To: HOUNDDAWG (#113)
Good for you, I admire Jelly Bryce's. I will stick to my rifles, it's much more interesting for me to hit little targets at a good distance.
I'm quite likely the best pistolero on this fucking board
"If the Union was formed by the accession of States, then the Union may be dissolved by the secession of States." ---Daniel Webster, US Senate, Feb. 15, 1833
#129. To: ALL (#128)
http://www.freedom4um.com/cgi-bin/readart.cgi? ArtNum=32709&Disp=114#C114
#130. To: Brian S (#127)
Brian, to my knowledge I've never had a cross word with you. And no, this isn't cutting close to the bone. I worked in the worst slums in NY, and the ghetto residents I arrested deserved it. But you wouldn't have a clue about anything I've ever done, would you? I suspect your poke at me is b/c I don't adore the political fraud you do, Saint Obama, and this thread exposed his warped position on the 2nd Amendment. For you, or anyone else, to not want to know where a politician stands on specific issues is the working definition of ignorant.
Cutting to close to the bone, eh?
#131. To: X-15 (#128)
Mastering the rifle was easy, and my well tuned super accurate rifles are ready with hundreds of tailored handloads to match. Combat handgunning is a little more difficult. Hell, even Brownies and Cub Scouts shoot well the first time out with a shoulder stocked arm.
#132. To: Jethro Tull (#130)
Did the cops who were shot deserve it? You advocate shooting them and made no distinction between good ones or bad ones. Should the whole NYPD suffer collectively for the crimes of the more egregious officers?
#133. To: HOUNDDAWG (#132)
Who are you talking about?
You advocate shooting them and made no distinction between good ones or bad ones.
#134. To: Jethro Tull (#133)
Last week in a thread about cops abusing protesters you wrote "Shoot the bastards."
#135. To: HOUNDDAWG (#134)
Show me the thread, and what does that have to do with this one?
#136. To: Jethro Tull (#135)
I'm sorry, I didn't bookmark it. I thought it was odd that a former cop would advocate shooting them. If you wish to declare war and stand toe to toe with the enemy, fine. But, it's irresponsible to advocate "shooting the bastards" for grievances either real or perceived that do not warrant a death penalty. I can think of no situation where I should fire in the direction of someone who isn't trying to take my life at that moment. It is not a proper course of action to advocate shooting politicians, cops, county inspectors, meter maids or anyone else before fat assed Americans have even tried to restore the country through peaceful means. Unfortunately, too many video-sated sugar babies of today demand instant gratification to any and all problems even if that means the use of deadly force, as long as they don't have to actually exert themselves over the long stretch. The SLA, The Weathermen, Black Panthers, The Arm, The Sword & The Cross Of The Lord, etc., were/are all convinced that their reasons for shooting cops are just. And, when I see you embrace that same self serving lunacy it's disturbing to me.
#137. To: PnbC (#67)
Those that support Obama winning are at least hoping he will be the least interventionist of the three front runners. Whether their hope is misplaced or not is besides the point. It is the war, and nothing else, that is the prime mover here.
#138. To: HOUNDDAWG (#136)
'Dowg, all I can do is defend my comments. On this thread I said I'd use any amount of force necessary to keep my guns from government confiscation. I don't see the problem with that position. I don't advocate it for everyone, and I believe people like me will be in the extreme minority when and if that day comes. So be it.
#139. To: Jethro Tull, Dakmar, christine (#138) (Edited)
Well, that's certainly reasonable and I have no reason to dispute it. My problem in this and other threads is with the "instant gratificons" who seem to think that life is a video game and the solution to all political problems is gun play. Not only will they fold when the shit hits the fan but they will refuse to accept any responsibility for diverting attention away from boring but necessary political action we should take and for providing the govt the necessary inflammatory evidence to clamp down on other forms of expression. Last night when I jammed Dakmar up he immediately retreated into "it was a joke" (although I don't know any sane people who think that's funny) and you summoned the spirit of Pat Robertson for support. I don't want to match the neocons' evil blow for blow because then I'll be no better than them. and if I cannot make a manly, declarative statement that stands on its own merits without relying on a quote, ("Is it time yet, Claire?") as justification then I won't make any statement at all. If you'll notice I seldom prop up my argument with quotes from others. I write what I feel and take the heat for it. But, right now a quote may be appropriate since I can't seem to garner respect for my own mature, well reasoned point of view. The problem is just as Charlie Reese has described it below. "We have met the enemy and he is us." Too many stupid, testosterone-driven young men are rattling their sabers instead of using the brains that God gave them. And, when I chew one of them out they cluster together for support and celebrate their mediocrity. After all, if Bush proved anything it's that "It's every American's right to be a stupid sonofabitch." Of course all are equal in christine's little world, including Todd when I tried to warn her about him. She needs to discourage these mindless shits who post here in order to make it attractive for those with real power, the power of reason coupled with the courage to resist tyranny. (That doesn't mean back shooting some low level bureaucrats as one poster was openly wishing for last night)
'Dowg, all I can do is defend my comments. On this thread I said I'd use any amount of force necessary to keep my guns from government confiscation. I don't see the problem with that position. I don't advocate it for everyone, and I believe people like me will be in the extreme minority when and if that day comes. So be it.
#140. To: HOUNDDAWG (#139)
So you have your hot button issues, eh? Join the crowd :) My experience w/forums is that at different times, depending on the subject, posters have reactions that might be driven by emotion more than a sober reaction to the clusterbang we find ourselves in. Further compounding this form of communication is that posting back and forth eliminates the many nuances a normal conversation allows. Humor to some in a post is a harsh blow to others. When a poster is challenged, and h/she says their comment was a joke, their word should be good, esp. given the history of that poster as in Dak’s case. I have always gotten his humor and I saw how his comment was connected to a previous one. As for your broader concern about a scattered band of internet commandos engaging in governmental insurrection, I only wish it were true. Truth be known, Pogo was right. We have met the enemy and he is us. Just as the Ron Paul revolution was an illusion offered up to those who still believe they can effect change, the words of some here, myself included, are nothing more than a hope that things can change. That isn't going to happen, so here I sit locked into the ride.
My problem in this and other threads is with the "instant gratificons" who seem to think that life is a video game and the solution to all political problems is gun play.
#141. To: FormerLurker (#68)
Horrible, of course. Your example only underlines the criticalness of ridding the nation of the Clintons and the fascist party's pitiful offering.
And what say you about the cost of life here?
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
#142. To: HOUNDDAWG (#139)
Marvelously creative phrasing!
"instant gratificons"
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
#143. To: iconoclast (#142)
1Associated Press, "Research finds Cheney, Obama distant cousins," October 17, 2007. Your thoughts on Obama's 2nd Amendment position?
The U.S. Senate Debated:
Voted: Supporting concealed carry for citizens10 Banning many common semi-automatic firearms11 Disallowing self-defense in towns where guns are banned12 Imposing one handgun a month restrictions13 Requiring lock up your safety trigger locks14 Protecting gun dealers from frivolous lawsuits15 Outlawing gun confiscations during a national emergency16 Squelching the free speech rights of gun owners17 Restricting the interstate sales of firearms18 Repealing the gun ban in Washington, DC19
2Ibid.
3O.Kay Henderson, "Three leading Democrats talk about gun control," Radio Iowa News, April 22, 2007.
4James Oliphant and Michael J. Higgins, "Court to hear gun case," Chicago Tribune, November 20, 2007.
5Illinois State Senate, vote on SB 2165 (41-16), May 25, 2004.
6Obama says, "National legislation will prevent other states' flawed concealed-weapons laws from threatening the safety of Illinois residents." David Mendell, "Democratic hopefuls vary a bit on death penalty," Chicago Tribune, February 20, 2004.
7See the Gun Owners of America fact sheet at http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm.
8John Chase, "Keyes, Obama are far apart on guns; Views on assault weapons at odds," Chicago Tribune, September 15, 2004.
9Senators Chuck Schumer and John Kerry had both cosponsored S. 1431 in 2003, a bill that would have banned any semi-auto shotgun that also contained a pistol grip, which the bill defined as "a grip, a thumbhole stock, or any other characteristic that can function as a grip." According to that definition, just about any semi-automatic shotgun would be banned.
10See supra note 6.
11About the so-called "assault weapons" ban, Obama says, "I believe we need to renew -- not roll back -- this common sense gun law." See supra note 8.
12See supra note 5.
13As a state senator, "Obama regularly supported gun-control measures, including a ban on semiautomatic 'assault weapons' and a limit on handgun purchases to one a month." "Obama Record May be Gold Mine for Critics," Associated Press, January 17, 2007.
14On July 28, 2005, Senator Obama voted for a provision requiring gun dealers to include the sale of a lock-up-your-safety device with every handgun sold. The amendment, offered by Sen. Herb Kohl (D-WI), passed by a vote of 70-30. The provision amended the gun makers' protection act (S. 397).
15On July 29, 2005, Senator Obama voted against S. 397, a bill that was designed to put an end to the frivolous lawsuits that were threatening to put many gun dealers out of business. While an argument could be made that a pro-gun Senator might vote against this bill because it contained a lock-up- your-safety provision (see supra note 14), the fact that Obama voted in favor of that trigger lock amendment (but against the overall bill) indicates his real animus against helping gun dealers protect themselves from the anti- gun lawsuits that were aimed at driving them into bankruptcy.
16On July 13, 2006, Sen. Obama voted for Emergency Powers language that saw only 16 of the most ardent anti-gun senators vote against it. The amendment provides that no money can be used by federal agents to confiscate firearms during a declared state of emergency. The amendment was added to the Department of Homeland Security appropriations bill (HR 5441).
17On January 18, 2007, Senator Obama voted against a pro-gun amendment to strike language in S. 1 that would infringe upon the free speech rights of groups like Gun Owners of America. The amendment, which passed, struck requirements that would have required GOA to monitor and report on its communications with its members, and could easily have led to government demands for GOA's membership list (a.k.a. registration).
18Obama has frequently made statements which indicate that he would restrict the interstate sale of firearms. For example, he told the NAACP that, "We've got to make sure that unscrupulous gun dealers aren't loading up vans and dumping guns in our communities, because we know they're not made in our communities. There aren't any gun manufacturers here, right here in the middle of Detroit." Senator Barack Obama, at the NAACP Presidential Primary Forum, July 12, 2007.
19See supra note 4.
#144. To: Jethro Tull (#143)
icon neither reads nor comprehends well so maybe you could come up with a diagram for third graders?????
#145. To: X-15, HOUNDDAWG (#128)
Good for you, I admire Jelly Bryce's. I will stick to my rifles, it's much more interesting for me to hit little targets at a good distance. Never bring a pistol to a rifle fight.
I'm quite likely the best pistolero on this fucking board
Rebates for Ron - Ron Paul For Dummies - New R3volution
#146. To: Cynicom (#144)
Icon might read the damaging positions Obama takes, but like a true cultist it doesn't cause him to get up off his knees.
#147. To: Jethro Tull, Original_Intent, TwentyTwelve, FormerLurker, Artisan, robin, christine, ALL (#10)
No. You've got to be freakin' kidding me, right? Right? Oh no... Fear of govt. is a form of mental illness
"I would not run round a corner to see the world blow up." ~ Henry David Thoreau
#148. To: wudidiz (#147)
I've told this story before here, about a neighbor I knew from Bulgaria. She had been a doctor, as had her husband; and even both her daughters became doctors. But that's not the point of the story, just background. She was afraid to leave her trash barrels out beyond the time allowed by the city ordinance. She was afraid to leave her car parked along the curb (I forget why). She spied out of her window routinely, checking for only God knows what. She knew which neighbors were home all day, and which ones spread rumors. Growing up in the Soviet Bloc never left her.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
#149. To: iconoclast (#141)
You've said many times that you wished the Republican Party would essentially go the way of the Whigs. Correct?
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#150. To: wudidiz (#147)
You didn't know how sick you were did you...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#151. To: HOUNDDAWG (#55)
No they can't. But you are welcome to try.
Americans can take this country back without firing a shot,...
God is always good!
#152. To: RickyJ (#151)
Good luck with that one...pistolero man LOLOL
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#153. To: Jethro Tull (#146)
If the fascist party gets its ass against the wall it take your gun away so fast it'll make your head swim (or blow up). The difference will be that it will be done by Presidential fiat and the already established/organized brown shirts. Think Waco, Ruby Ridge, the Cuban kid and many many more outrages. But you guys go ahead and order up a third portion of the experienced and ready-on-day-one single party establishment. FEAR the new guy with his message of reconciliation and bi-partisanship. Sheesh!
Icon might read the damaging positions Obama takes, but like a true cultist it doesn't cause him to get up off his knees.
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
#154. To: Jethro Tull (#10)
Fear is the normal American state of mind after seven years of totalitarianism.
Fear of govt. is a form of mental illness
The road to perdition .... Bush/Clinton/Bush/McClinton
#155. To: Jethro Tull (#0)
Upon further thought, I think a whole lot of politicians need to have a gun stuck in their face and be told to straighten up or else.... They continually ignore the polite letters we are told to write to them, as if any politician gives a damn what the people want (unless it's more government). No, I will stand up and say we have suffered more abuses from our current government than we suffered under British rule. Does anybody think the Founding Fathers would implore us to "write more polite letters"????
"If the Union was formed by the accession of States, then the Union may be dissolved by the secession of States." ---Daniel Webster, US Senate, Feb. 15, 1833
#156. To: X-15 (#155)
They've moved our jobs offshore, debased our culture, opened our borders to invaders, added layers of taxation yearly, waged war in our name, used our schools as indoctrination camps, jailed our population in record numbers and used prisoners as manufacturing slaves, and redistrict their congressional districts to ensure a reelection rate of 95%, and we should write a letter of protest? These elitists need to feel fear, and not the comfort of a walnut paneled Washington office.
They continually ignore the polite letters we are told to write to them, as if any politician gives a damn what the people want (unless it's more government).
#157. To: iconoclast (#153)
You're really a dimbulb. Have to be. If your stated purpose is to destroy the (R) Wing of the CFR Party, electing the (D) Wing will serve the opposite purpose. McTraitor will bury what's left of the GOP so fast it won't be funny. No worries, Hitlery! is the selection. Juan might not even know it yet. I could give 2 sh*ts about the CFR Party you play games with, you gun grabber Universal Health Care OWM NAU freak...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#158. To: X-15 (#155)
The FFs would disown us...
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#159. To: Jethro Tull (#156)
I second that.
What North American Union? ~~~~~ Have you seen THIS yet? Pass it around...
#160. To: iconoclast (#153)
This is where I resist.
If the fascist party gets its ass against the wall it take your gun away so fast it'll make your head swim (or blow up). The difference will be that it will be done by Presidential fiat and the already established/organized brown shirts.
#161. To: Hayek Fan (#17)
Wow, I think I've missed something along the way. Course I don't have time to read threads much any more.
Many of those on this site who want Obama to be president only care about one thing and that is his promise of "free" healthcare.
Vote Republicrat or Democin, it doesn't matter, you still get McHillobama
#162. To: Jethro Tull (#160)
The thing is, the JBT's will find out real quick that they keep dying faster than they can be replaced, and that we can pop up anywhere/anytime at our pleasure, just like the VC did in Viet Nam. American topography favors the citizens if a shooting war breaks out.
"If the Union was formed by the accession of States, then the Union may be dissolved by the secession of States." ---Daniel Webster, US Senate, Feb. 15, 1833
#163. To: Jethro Tull, christine, ghostdogtxn, Dakmar, iconoclast, robin (#79)
I'm sure I don't have to tell you that this is not the same America that existed in 1969 when that decision was handed down. Sadly, this website is trending toward the lowest common denominator and away from intelligence and reason. And, my instincts tell me that now is not the time to be edging up to the line of dangerous speech. And, the reality is this; to be charged with any federal crime is to be punished because even if you win you lose. If Dakmar's comments are presented to a grand jury as offering aid and comfort to terrorists, there is no question that they will indict. And it will cost $20,000 to get even a totally frivolous indictment or information dismissed and his record expunged! Unlike these inexperienced people who cluster together for comfort and support, I've been standing on my own against the feds for 25 years (I haven't won but I didn't lose, either) and I've seen too many Lilliputians cling to the false belief that there's safety in numbers. And, I suspect that as I write this the enemy is planning to chill net speech with a high profile prosecution that vaporizes the illusion of internet anonymity and constitutionally protected speech. (And, why would anyone think that they have any more right to irritate Bush than protesters who are caged away from his line sight at each public appearance? Is there any doubt that he can get away with anything and that the SCOTUS will sustain it under emergency war powers or some such shit? Judge Sol Wachtler, the former Chief Judge of New York State, was quoted as saying that a prosecutor could persuade a grand jury to "indict a ham sandwich. ..." and this is especially true for a federal grand jury.) Do you recall how the feds got to Doug Thompson of CAPITOL HILL BLUE? (CHB is the first political internet newsletter and it was Thompson who reported that Bush called the constitution "a goddamned piece of paper" and he was the most courageous electronic journalist out there) Under the Patriot Act it's a federal felony for him to even tell his readers about the letters and visits he received, but he risked it and telegraphed the info "between the lines" anyway. And, now that he's been effectively neutered the retroactive damage control is in full swing. And, now Thompson has suddenly been diagnosed with a brain tumor! Hell, sudden cancer is exactly how he govt dealt with Jack Ruby after he begged The Chief Justice to get him out of TX so he could tell what he knew! One day I was posting comments about Thompson's articles and the neocons were outraged because I was gleefully accusing BushCo of being a bunch of closet queens, and the next day my comments were gone as was the ability to comment on his articles, and his era as a political gadfly was over. My concern is that if christine keeps providing cover for anonymous trolls who wouldn't dare tweak the govt's nose on their own website, then she too may disappear or just stop answering her phone one day. But, hey, if the mediocre majority wish to shout me down (with christine's blessing) then they can have this place. I don't go or stay where I'm not welcome.
Watts v The United States
#164. To: HOUNDDAWG (#163)
You make a good point about Doug Thompson, but as we know, there are now many who express themselves very well along the same vein. Christopher Bollyn's case is another example. I think it has to do with the size of the readership, and perhaps more to do with what else do these investigative journalists know? Beckett Saunders on LP threatened to report posters before. A fine example of a helpful pawn for the KGB/Stasi/DHS. But I don't believe an individual poster's comment has reached the level of unconstitutional interference you describe. If Michael Savage (Wiener) can say on the radio that the US should kill 100 million Muslims, and still have a show, then we should be able to make political cartoon like comments. Of course killing 100 million Muslims is part of the Bush regime's agenda, just like their agenda to silence America's true patriots. Let's not allow them to succeed merely because we are so afraid of what happened to Doug Thompson and Chrisopher Bollyn.
Do you recall how the feds got to Doug Thompson of CAPITOL HILL BLUE? (CHB is the first political internet newsletter and it was Thompson who reported that Bush called the constitution "a goddamned piece of paper" and he was the most courageous electronic journalist out there)
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
#165. To: robin (#164)
Point taken. I thought about Christopher Bollyn but, the post was long enough. And, yes, Muslims are fair game as were Japanese Americans in 1942. The problem I have with all of the rationalization is, why defend inflammatory speech that serves no other laudable goal? I mean, to me that's the equivalent of mooning people for sophomoric shock value. I'm not calling for moderator censorship, but she sure didn't haven't trouble telling me why my inflammatory posts on race were a problem for her. So, to criticize that while defending "jokes"(?) about murder of innocents seems illogical to me. But we're talking about a friend of christine's and I suppose certain folks are more equal than others.... It's not like Americans will be inspired by anonymous persons calling for the cold blooded murders of public officials, and those that ain't wired too tight and who may be moved to act aren't the people I'd knowingly share a foxhole with. But, again if you and others agree that this is an acceptable use of bandwidth then I won't argue. But, I won't invest any more energy in the attempt to make reasoned arguments, either. That's what happened at Liberty Forum, too. The trolls turned it into a mosh pit and I don't post there now. And, if you compare some of the earlier political dissertations with the inane topics now there's really no need to wonder why the founder John Deere lost interest and faded into the background. I know, I won't be missed. (I'll snatch that hambone off the trolls' plates)
#166. To: HOUNDDAWG (#165)
Well, that is an incorrect assumption. I know of no one here that wants "censorship" regardless of what name is used. I have taken my lumps here also, was even told leaving was an option. However after being thrown out of FReakville, Luciannes and ElPee, I can say that 4um is not 100 per cent but it is the best I have encountered in ten long years. Myself, I hate to see any AMERICAN leaving, there are far too few of us, in that vein, bear with us, the majority that have the same ideals and concerns.
I know, I won't be missed.
#167. To: HOUNDDAWG (#163)
First, let me say that your concern and protective sentiment towards me is not unappreciated and, second, this has nothing at all to do with who is a friend and who isn't in terms of my moderation on this forum. I consider you my friend. My guideline for moderation is explained here, Free Speech on Freedom4um. This has been and still is the policy to which I adhere standing by my Creator given right of free speech as specified in the 1st Amendment. If you'll notice, I particularize two contingencies with emphasize on the first and that is, (1) do not make a specific threat against an identifiable person or target. I don't think that Dakmar's comment or anyone else's on this thread rises to that level. Lastly, Jim, with all due respect, I have to disagree with your assertion that " this website is trending toward the lowest common denominator and away from intelligence and reason."
#168. To: HOUNDDAWG (#163)
As the current President of the mediocre majority it is my obligation to respond to your post. My position is one of self appointment so noone(222) is to blame. These forums are sometimes considered by the members themselves to be far more important/critical than they truly are. People say a lot of things in the course of any given day because most still think America is a semi-free country that honors freedom of speech. Some of these things may be considered highly offensive to corrupt government officials, but who cares about them ? At a time when something so basic as free speech is regularly challenged, people are being placed in "free speech zones" or areas far removed from the action, more noise and not less needs to be made in opposition to this unacceptable behavior on the part of "PUBLIC SERVANTS" ... Damn the Torpedos, Full Steam Ahead. If you in your post were referencing Zip or Jim Betker as MIAs due to their participation on this forum that is an understandable concern. I don't think Zip would have ever made a remark that could be determined violent or so aggregious as to alarm the authorities. BTP was a different story. The long and short of it is that both have disappeared and some among us are truly concerned about their well being, although none probably think it had anything to do with participation on this forum. Lastly, we should admit that we're in a fight to retain our liberty and it could get ugly. Christine is a very intelligent adult that is motivated to support real American values, one of which is free speech. She understands that there could be some risk or negative blow back but obviously feels free speech is too important to simply forfeit. I would hope that you wouldn't leave the forum because you are an articulate and intelligent presence here. People will still speak out in ways that may not meet with your approval, but I'd imagine the same sort of thing was taking place during the 1st Revolution.
But, hey, if the mediocre majority wish to shout me down (with christine's blessing) then they can have this place. I don't go or stay where I'm not welcome.
Guns don't kill people ... Governments do
#169. To: All (#0)
Bump considering tonight's Obama comment on guns.
#170. To: Jethro Tull (#2)
Which is why I Despise these obamaphiles and have them all Bozod forever.
From Ron Paul to the above is the political leap I can't get my head around.
Law Enforcement Against Prohibition You think the people of this country exist to provide you with position. I think your position exists to provide those people with freedom.~~William Wallace
"Corporation: An entity created for the legal protection of its human parasites, whose sole purpose is profit and self-perpetuation." ~~ IndieTx
ALAS, BABYLON
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