Former British prime minister, Tony Blair was in India and CNN-IBN's Vidya Shankar Aiyar talked to him about his work on the climate change issue, the situation in China, the Indo-US Nuclear Deal and Rahul Gandhi.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You are now batting to save the planet from this climate change crisis. Have you got a positive response yet from the Government of India?

Tony Blair: I think the Government of India has moved a long way in the past year or so and the Prime Minister of India has taken the leadership of the climate change counsel and they are going to produce an action plan by 2008 summer. Things are really on the move here, which is excellent and this really carries on the work I began at the Gleneages G8 Summit in 2005 to which we invited India and China and other major economies. And I have been carrying on doing that work first of all in office and now out of office to make a contribution if I can.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: How much is it that people are now going to believe you? Then you were British Prime Minister. Today you are part of a private group which is basically made up of industry, businessmen, maybe supported by some in the government as well. Industry itself is accused so much in terms of damaging the environment, so why should anyone believe you?

Tony Blair: Well it's a very good point, but unless you get business and industry involved in it, the solution is not going to work. And the single most important thing that we have got to do is to work out a framework within a sphere that allows are economies to grow — particularly the Indian economy to grow and let people out of poverty — but does so in a way that's environmentally sustainable. Now that is not going to happen without business and industry and in a way what we are going to do is take this out of the politics of pressure groups and put it in the sort of practical and realistic negotiation — the type of thing that I was involved in before I left office. But I can really devote some time now.

The reason I decided to lead this project politically was that I found out when I was the Prime Minister, we managed to get the world community in Germany last year at the G8 Summit to this point. Okay, we all agree that it is a problem, we all agree that we need a new global deal, we all agree that everybody including America and India and China have got to be in it — but what is it? That's the question.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: But the problem is, aren't you preaching to the converted already? There is Japan, there is China on your trip, and now India. But the real problem seems to be coming from America isn't it?

Tony Blair: Well I have been to America too.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: And what do they say?

Tony Blair: Well I think in America — and I maybe wrong in this, but I say in America — if you look not just at the recent pronouncements of President Bush but what any of the three potential Presidents are saying in the American election campaign, you know John McCain was a sponsor of a Bill before Congress on climate change and Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama have both got very forward positions on climate change. America's on the move.

The government of Schwarzenegger with whom I concluded a deal when I was in California before I left office, they are pushing many of the other states and many of the other cities. This thing is moving.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: In other words, you are hoping that a new administration in America would actually help the cause, not the present one.

Tony Blair: Well I hope the present one does too. It is possible that he will extend it because last year in Germany, America agreed with the basic principle that we need a global deal with a substantial cut in emissions at the heart of it.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: So who do you think would be the best in terms of the climate change problem in America as President?

Tony Blair: You want me to make an endorsement? No I think all three are great, but the one thing that I am sure of is that whoever is president, they will have a strong forward position on climate change and that incidentally is also a reason why here in India and in China and Japan, a part of my message has been, 'look, you may think that America's staying out of this for good. I think America's coming into this now and that gives us a great opportunity'.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: What about technology? I know you have said before that science and technology is the real solution to the problem and one of the demands of the developing countries has been that who is going to fund it. What solutions are you offering for that?

Tony Blair: We need to be able to incentivise the development of that science and technology. I mean it is happening around the world and that renewable energy is in a completely different position from a few years back, but if you take something like carbon, catch it and and storage which is an important part of being able to burn coal in a way that doesn't harm the environment, that technology has got to be accelerated.

Now, the purpose of having market incentives for the western countries like the European Emissions Trading System is to give business and industry, a clear direction and therefore a clear incentive, so that see an economic opportunity is doing research and developing this technology. We have then got to find a way of accessing that to the developing world and then funding its application.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You have just come back from a trip to China. China is one of the worst polluters in terms of carbon emissions as well. What was your message to the country?

Tony Blair: My message in a sense was, 'what is the right global deal' and their message to me was, 'it's going to be a global deal that allows us to grow', and I think India and China in that sense — even though India's per capita emissions are well below China's — are in the same position and that position is, as I try to explain to people in Europe and America is that both countries say that they have got 'hundreds of millions of people and though part of our economy is cutting edge first world, we have still got hundreds of millions of people scrapping out a subsistence living. We need to lift those people out of poverty, to do that we need economic growth and so don't come up with a solution that tells us that you guys haven't grown your economies and so we can't grow ours. We are not having that'.

I think that there is no doubt at all that the solution that we come up with has to be one in which there are different obligations for the developed and developing world. The trouble is that it has still got to be a solution where cumulatively we tackle the problem of climate change by reducing emissions.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You were at a very crucial time in China. Talking about the protests in Tibet, you know that China has been undertaking a lot of developmental activities as well which environmentalists claim is damaging the environment. You have a train that goes all the way up to Lhasa, roads are leading up there and protests also right now. What do you think is the next best step? Your Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, now says that there is a willingness in at least China's part where Premiere Wen Jiabao has said that he is willing to talk to the Dalai Lama now — provided that he gives up violence and an independent Tibet, both of which the Dalai Lama has done. But what is the next step forward? Should China continue with the policy that it has in Tibet?

Tony Blair: One of the great things about coming out of office is that you don't have to deal with every single issue. I mean, basically on Tibet, I want restraint and I want calm and end to the violence. I hope the situation resolves itself. But for me, with the climate change and the Middle East peace process, I have got enough on my plate.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: But what about the developmental activities that China is perusing in Tibet?

Tony Blair: Well I think that it is important that China develops its economy. Now, how it does that in different parts of the country is a matter of debate and discussion. I keep telling people to understand what the Chinese preoccupation is. It is very important for China to keep political stability with the great process of economic development underway. Because China is not only Beijing and Shanghai.It is also hundreds of millions of people in the interiors of the country that need the economic growth and that need the development and whose standards of loving at the moment are way, way apart from those who are living on the east coast, where there is a highly industrialised economy.

So, what is important here all the time is to understand that China has certain pre-occupations which are internal.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: As a British prime minister, as a world leader, what is your understanding? Does China understand the problems that Tibetians have?

Tony Blair: Well, this again is something which China has to resolve with the people in Tibet. In the broadest terms, I think it is important that we in the west have some understanding of the challenges that China faces. This absolutely central preoccupation of how do we industrialise a population of hundreds of millions of people that are going to move from an agrarian economy into an industrial economy is important. The reason is that if China quadruples its economy and we do not find a way through the science and technology of allowing that growth to happen in an environmentally sustainable way, then even if America and Europe cut their emissions, then the emissions from China and India will make up for that cut.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: This leads me to the next point, which is nuclear energy. Do you believe that there will be a clean and environmentally safe way for India to pursue this?

Tony Blair: This is a very controversial issue, but this is one of the reasons why this issue is going to be taken out by pressure group politics. I honestly do not see how we are going to solve the issue of the climate without a significant and substantial contribution from nuclear energy. I just don't even see it. And there is new technology being developed the whole time, which generates a lot less of the high-intensity waste and there are countries like Britain which have had half-a-century of nuclear power.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: So you are saying that we should just get used to living with nuclear waste, but should pursue nuclear energy?

Tony Blair: Personally I don't think that we have a choice, but in the short term at least, it seems to me that it makes a contribution that is necessary for climate change and also necessary for a country's security as well. Which is why I supported the India-US Nuclear Deal very strongly at the time and continue to do so.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Given the political differences India has in pursuing with the Indo-US Nuclear Deal, do you believe that India must press the air and seal the deal?

Tony Blair: Well, these are decisions that are for you in India, but my view is that I support the deal. The Prime Minister of India has shown leadership on the issue.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You have been meeting officials from the Government of India now. What is your sense of it? Is the Government serious about pursuing the deal?

Tony Blair: Well I believe the Government's position is clearly set out. They believe that the deal is in the interest of India. I don't want to get into your internal politics, but one of the decisions that I took when I left office as UK Prime Minister was to decide to renew our nuclear power sector because the stations are coming to the end of their lives. It's a very controversial decision, I know that many people will deeply disagree with me, but I just look at the facts and I look at the developing signs in nuclear energy and I just don't think that we are going to be either the energy security concern, or the greenhouse gas climate change concern without nuclear power being part of the mix.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Well that is the argument that the Prime Minister of India made. The argument that the Left makes in India, the Communists make in India is: Would it be good to partner the US at all or will we end up burning our fingers? As the British Prime Minister who partnered the Americans in Iraq war and came away bruised from the experience, what do you think India should do?

Tony Blair: It's not as if America is the only country in the world which has nuclear energy? I mean, France has nuclear energy, there are countries in the developing world that have nuclear energy. I think that in terms of the debate in Europe now, people are looking at the nuclear sector, the technology is developing the whole time and to me, the fact that America is part of this whole arrangement is that 'yes it is'. So what? It's got nothing to do with the foreign policy component of it. It's got to do with the fact that nuclear energy and within the Nuclear Suppliers' Group, it is important that we get the right agreement that unlocks the policy for India in its own sovereign, independent way to develop nuclear power if it wishes to do so.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You know the whole idea of this Indo-US Nuclear Deal has raised a bogey for early elections in India and you have met Rahul Gandhi today, who might well be the future prime minister of this country. In your talks with him, do you think he has the potential to be the future prime minister of this country?

Tony Blair: I don't want to damage Rahul's career by endorsing him or by predicting what he might do in future life, but I can say that he is one of the most able and talented and insightful of the younger, generation of politicians worldwide. And how he ends up in your politics is for you and for him and for his party to decide. I think that he has a first-class mind and a great commitment to India.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: What was your reason to have a meeting with him on Friday?

Tony Blair: Over the years we have talked about party things. We did a big reform programme for the Labour Party in UK and these things are useful to go over and one just talks about things. One of the things that you look for in political leaders are the people who can take a step back from all the politics and the crisis and the events that are screaming headlines in today's news, but in six months time, no one can remember them. Rahul Gandhi does that and that is interesting. I find it, even though I am out of office, stimulating to go and talk to people like that.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You’ve been wearing so many hats since you left office. Which is the hat that you really like? Is it that of an envoy to the Middle East, the future President of European Union or is it this — climate change?

Tony Blair: The Presidency of EU is not the hat I am wearing.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Are you interested in it though?

Tony Blair: There is no point even beginning this discussion, despite what they keep writing about.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: But you could certainly say if you are interested or not.

Tony Blair: It might not be very sensible to do this until the position exists and until people decide what they want.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: You know what the media is going to say to this? They are going to say you are not ruling it out.

Tony Blair: Yeah, and then you get another question to ask. They can speculate. To be honest, I have learnt with the media over the years that they’ll speculate whether I give an answer or not. It’s not something I am concentrating on. What I am concentrating on are things that I was really interested in while in government and things I would like to continue after leaving the government. People sometimes ask me, ‘what’s the difference between being Prime Minister and then being out of office.’

The biggest difference is when you are PM you don’t get to decide the issues you deal with. Things come on your desk and you got to do them, like it or not. When you leave office you have far greater freedom. So I am dealing with issues like - and I have been since I left - the Middle East, climate change, Africa. These are issues I have been passionate about as PM and now I can concentrate exclusively on them.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Your critics would say you flit from issue to issue and don’t stay on till you actually solve them. You are just there when things are sounding good and when the problems start, you are away at another issue. Is that fair?

Tony Blair: I don’t think so. If you take the northern Ireland peace process with which I was intimately involved with it, some would say I stuck there through thick and thin. On Africa, we began this process at G8 in 2005 and we kept it going. Similarly with climate change. What’s absurd is when some people say, ‘Aah! Now he’s taking on climate!’ I have taken up climate change all the way through, when I was PM and now when I am left. I took up all these issues from where I left them. I am announcing some of them now but I have been working on them since I left.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Which is the most important issue for you?

Tony Blair: It’s not the question of parity. But if asked which would I spend the maximum time on, I would say Middle East because it’s very important. This project that I am leading on climate change does not require the same time commitment for me but it’s something I am very interested in.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: What is the end goal you would like to see in Middle East?

Tony Blair: There’s got to be a fundamental change in the way things operate on the ground. So security, the concerns of Israelis being met, the Palestinians turn about the lifting of the occupation - there needs to be a fundamental change on the ground - in order to create conditions for negotiations. The two-state solution is possible It is fundamental to dealing with problems between Islam and rest of the world. It’s also the right thing for ordinary Israelis and Palestinians. It looks very difficult at the moment but I think we got to keep working at it all the time.

Vidya Shankar Aiyar: Mr Tony Blair, all the very best for all your projects. Thank you.