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Title: Obama Adviser Calls for 60,000-80,000 U.S. Troops To Stay in Iraq Through 2010
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URL Source: http://www2.nysun.com/article/74207
Published: Apr 4, 2008
Author: Eli Lake
Post Date: 2008-04-04 10:26:15 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 4677
Comments: 86
WASHINGTON — A key adviser to Senator Obama's campaign is recommending in a confidential paper that America keep between 60,000 and 80,000 troops in Iraq as of late 2010, a plan at odds with the public pledge of the Illinois senator to withdraw combat forces from Iraq within 16 months of taking office. The paper, obtained by The New York Sun, was written by Colin Kahl for the center-left Center for a New American Security. In "Stay on Success: A Policy of Conditional Engagement," Mr. Kahl writes that through negotiations with the Iraqi government "the U.S. should aim to transition to a sustainable over-watch posture (of perhaps 60,000–80,000 forces) by the end of 2010 (although the specific timelines should be the byproduct of negotiations and conditions on the ground)." Mr. Kahl is the day-to-day coordinator of the Obama campaign's working group on Iraq. A shorter and less detailed version of this paper appeared on the center's Web site as a policy brief. Both Mr. Kahl and a senior Obama campaign adviser reached yesterday said the paper does not represent the campaign's Iraq position. Nonetheless, the paper could provide clues as to the ultimate size of the residual American force the candidate has said would remain in Iraq after the withdrawal of combat brigades. The campaign has not publicly discussed the size of such a force in the past. This is not the first time the opinion of an adviser to the Obama campaign has differed with the candidate's stated Iraq policy. In February, Mr. Obama's first foreign policy tutor, Samantha Power, told BBC that the senator's current Iraq plan would likely change based on the advice of military commanders in 2009. She has since resigned her position as a formal adviser. The political ramifications of the disclosure are yet to be seen. The perception of a harder line in Iraq could help Mr. Obama combat charges by Senator McCain in a general election that Mr. Obama favors a hasty surrender and retreat in Iraq. But it could hurt the Obama campaign with anti-war voters in the Democratic primaries. Mr. Obama's rival for the Democratic nomination, Senator Clinton, has called for withdrawing troops from Iraq, but an architect of the surge has told the Sun that she has been wary of a precipitous withdrawal. In a situation with some parallels to this one, Mr. Obama suffered some political damage on the trade issue when he called publicly for a renegotiation of NAFTA while a policy adviser reportedly met with Canadian officials and downplayed the chances of a NAFTA retreat. In an interview yesterday, a senior Obama foreign affairs adviser, Susan Rice, said the Iraq working group is not the last word on the campaign's Iraq policy. "We have experts and scholars with a range of views and Barack appreciates this range of views. They are in think tanks and like me they write in their own voice, they are people who do their independent scholarship. Barack Obama cannot be held accountable for what we all write," she said. Ms. Rice said she had not seen the paper, which is marked as a draft and "not for attribution without author's permission." Mr. Kahl yesterday said, "This has absolutely zero to do with the campaign." He added, "There are elements that are consistent with the Democratic Party's approach, and I will leave it to others to find out if there are elements that are not." Mr. Kahl's approach would call on the remaining troops in Iraq to play an "over-watch role." The term is used by Multinational Forces Iraq to describe the long term goal of the coalition force presence in the country, Mr. Kahl said in an interview. "It refers to the U.S. being out of the lead, largely in a support role. It doesn't mean the U.S. does not do things like targeted counterterrorism missions or continue to train and advise the Iraqis," he said. "It would not be 150,000 Americans taking the lead in counterinsurgency." Mr. Obama's policy to date also allows for a residual force for Iraq. In early Iowa debates, the senator would not pledge to remove all soldiers from Iraq, a distinction from his promise to withdraw all combat brigades. Also, Mr. Obama has stipulated that he would be open to having the military train the Iraqi Security Forces if he received guarantees that those forces would not be the shock troops of one side of an Iraqi civil war. But the Obama campaign has also not said how many troops would make up this residual force. "We have not put a number on that. It depends on the circumstances on the ground," Ms. Rice said. She added, "It would be worse than folly, it would be dangerous, to put a hard number on the residual forces." Mr. Kahl's paper laid out what he called a "middle way" between unlimited engagement in Iraq and complete and rapid disengagement. The approach is contingent, he said, on the progress and willingness of Iraq's major confessional parties in reaching political accommodation. "There is a fundamental difference in the assumption between the Democratic approach and the Bush-McCain approach. That approach is premised on the assumption the Iraqi government wants to reach accommodation and what they need is time. The surge is premised on the notion of creating breathing space," Mr. Kahl said. He added that his strategy would pressure and entice the Iraqi government to begin political accommodation by not only starting the withdrawal, but also by stating that America had no intention to hold permanent bases in the country.
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#1. To: christine (#0)
It's not really "at odds." All one has to do is re-define the meaning of combat troops and *presto* problem solved. We'll just have 10,000s of "advisors" running around Iraq. Germany did the same thing in the 1930s "An army? Not at all. It's a state financed rifle club...with 500,000 members." Still, it seems a bit hasty to attribute the rough draft writings of staff to Obama himself. I say go right to the source: "As the U.S. redeploys from Iraq, we can recapture lost influence in the Middle East. We can refocus our efforts to critical, yet neglected priorities, such as combating international terrorism and winning the war in Afghanistan. And we can, then, more effectively deal with one of the greatest threats to the United States, Israel and world peace: Iran." "My plan also allows for a limited number of U.S. troops to remain and prevent Iraq from becoming a haven for international terrorism and reduce the risk of all-out chaos. In addition, we will redeploy our troops to other locations in the region, reassuring our allies that we will stay engaged in the Middle East." "The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me. "If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.
He also never addresses the Blackwater-types, who probably outnumber our troop levels. He's a politician; folks need to 'listen' what he isn't saying.
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
the fact is, nothing will change in regard to ME foreign policy with anyone from the democrat party. the puppet will do the bidding of his globalist masters.
It does seem like the same old march down the same old road, doesn't it? Nothing short of a US bankruptcy will end the occupation/war, and maybe not even that.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
i agree.
"We have experts and scholars with a range of views and Barack appreciates this range of views. They are in think tanks and like me they write in their own voice, they are people who do their independent scholarship. Barack Obama cannot be held accountable for what we all write," What a concept! Americans allowed to have their own separate opinions. How different from the Bush Regime!
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
Please note reaction and my previous post.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
The troops have to stay in Iraq until the war with Iran starts. The troops are there to blackmail the American public into supporting the war with Iran and the whole Muslim world of 1.3 billion people. We do not have resources to do battle so what we can do is to nuke the Muslims (i.e.genocide is the plan.) Both political parties are Zionist entities. It is not for nothing that people call our government ZOG (Zionist Oxxupation Group.)
The Truth of 911 Shall Set You Free From The Lie
If that's true, then what we should do is pray for a speedy demise of the USA.
Pinguinite.com EcuadorTreasures.ec
This would certainly trivialize any previous holocausts. Time to build a bigger memorial.
agreed
The only way to save America is to round up the tribe and confine it to reservations. It worked with the native American Indian tribes in the Nineteenth Century and it can work today.
Life is a tragedy to those who feel, and a comedy to those who think.
The "tribe"? I'm not sure which tribe you're talking about, but I don't like this sort of statist solution no matter what tribe you're talking about. I think Native American Indian tribes would concur with me on this. If you were among those confined to a reservation, you might not be so crazy about it either. And if were to bet money on who is likely to end up on a reservation I certainly wouldn't rule out either of us showing up on one.
You're right. In reading about Obama's phased, systematic withdrawal (he gives no date certain) this morning, the logical question I had was where would they be withdrawn to? In more than one article I read, the answer was to Afghanistan which plays in nicely to your Iranian war scenario.
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
Obama Pledges ‘Aggressive’ Iran Diplomacy . I can't say I've seen Hillary or McCain call for such negotiations with Iran.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
At that point, you can write off the hope of bringing them home alive.
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
I suggest people look at the relative dates of his speech to AIPAC and his interview where he said he would negotiate with Iran. Which is more recent?
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
What would a date have to do with the veracity of his comments?
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
Well, I think a later statement is more likely to represent a man's current thoughts. (And a politician's speech to AIPAC is likely at best to shade that politician's true beliefs.)
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
god know what's in the man's head, but what came out of his mouth is what will follow him throughout his career, especially comments delivered to the Lobby. He said all the right things to THEM, as all politicians (who get anywhere) do. Did you assume his phased redeployment would mean the troops would be coming home? I didn't. And these comments confirm it.
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
I notice you're not telling me which statement is more recent.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Dates aren't important, unless he disavowed and/or amended it, which is what you're assuming.
Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
oh really, i missed that.
March 12, 2007 Barack Obama is running for President and advertising himself as an anti- war candidate. But the facts tell a different story. Since becoming a Senator in 2005, Obama has voted to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan on every occasion, including at least 3 major funding bills (see below). Furthermore, in a series of recent speeches and a bill introduced in the Senate ("Iraq War De-escalation Act of 2007"), Obama completely rejects the demand "U.S. troops, Out of Iraq, Now!" Obama's homepage summarizes his bill, introduced in the Senate on January 30, 2007: "a phased redeployment of U.S. troops . . . a residual U.S. presence may remain in Iraq for force protection, training of Iraqi security forces, and pursuit of international terrorists . . . troops should be redeployed . . . to Afghanistan and to other points in the region." In a major policy speech on November 20, 2006 at the Chicago Council on Global Affairs, Obama further elaborates his plan, underlining that "U.S. forces might remain in Iraq for a more extended period of time . . . dedicated to the critical, but less visible roles, of protecting logistics supply points, critical infrastructure, and American enclaves like the Green Zone, as well as acting as a rapid reaction force to respond to emergencies and go after terrorists." Obama further insists that any "drawdown" or "redeployment" of U.S. troops in Iraq should be used to escalate the so-called "war on terrorism" in other places. Obama writes: "drawing down our troops in Iraq will allow us to redeploy additional troops to Northern Iraq and elsewhere in the region as an over-the-horizon force. . . . Perhaps most importantly, some of these troops could be redeployed to Afghanistan. . . By redeploying from Iraq to Afghanistan, we will answer NATO's call for more troops and provide a much-needed boost to this critical fight against terrorism." How many troops would be "redeployed" and how many would remain in Iraq? Obama himself avoids giving specific numbers but he repeatedly emphasizes that his plan would implement the "recommendations of the bipartisan Iraq Study Group" which issued a report last December. The Iraq Study Group was built on the idea of a long-term occupation of Iraq by 70,000 U.S. troops. Even Obama's promise for a partial "redeployment" of troops turns out to be empty. While promising out of one side of his mouth, Obama, provides a loophole, out of the other side. Obama's bill allows for the "suspension of the redeployment . . . if the Iraqis are successful in meeting the thirteen benchmarks for progress laid out by the Bush Administration." No, Barack Obama's plan for Iraq is not a program for peace. It is a plan for a long-term occupation and a protracted U.S. war against Iraq. It is a plan for escalating U.S. imperialism's so-called "war on terrorism" in Afghanistan and elsewhere. In short, Obama is a war-wolf in sheep's clothing. His empty promises and false advertisements aim only at diverting the American people's anti-war struggles and buying time for the warmakers to continue their occupation of Iraq. Obama, albeit using slightly different terms, agrees: "To defeat al Qaeda, I will build a twenty-first-century military and twenty-first-century partnerships as strong as the anticommunist alliance that won the Cold War to stay on the offense everywhere from Djibouti to Kandahar." - Sen Obama, June 4, 2007
Those troops are never coming home.
"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me. "If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.
and there you have it.
If our forces revolted, they could load up and head north and hope they could go uncontested through Eastern Turkey to the Black Sea. Russian forces could come down and take them to safe refuge from the NEOCONS. That's the best case scenario I see. Who knows how many Amerikans/Iraqis/Others they'd have to kill to get out.
The way to get out of Iraq is to strike a deal with Iran. I'm sure they'd demand that we recognize their predominance in Iraq, but in return I do believe they'd assure our troops safe passage home.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
How does it feel to be in the company of Bush, Cheney, and McCain?
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
How does it feel to be in the Company of Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin, Ho Chi Minn, Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and other such trash?
You still seem to suffer from the misconception that I'm a Communist. And you're apparently so confused that you lump in Ahmadinejad with the Communists. One would think you're actually a Bush supporter. That's the kind of boneheaded lunacy he and his supporters would be guilty of. You are in dire need of some education about the world.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
YOU are the one shilling for the Commies on Freedom4um.
Translation: I have made some postings that are favorable to Obama. To people who suffer from your delusions, that amounts to shilling for the Commies. By the way, the Cold War happens to be over. Did you sleep through its end?
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
And what sort of creature are YOU backing (or at least hoping) for president?
and there you have it. And that's the truth of the matter that those with family, or not, need to understand. With mass job layoffs, where do you think the increased forces are going to come from?
"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942
Personally, my hopes died with Ron Paul's campaign. I suppose I realized we were 'surrounded' right before the 2003 Imperialist invasion of Iraq in 2003. However, now my vote will simply be an ATTEMPT to register my opposition to the cabal. May-be that I'll be voting for the 1st Libertarian candidate of my life. I'm passively interested in seeing the Constitution Party nominate someone like Chuck Baldwin, my personal favorite, or maybe I'll just support my local Constitutionally minded reps.
As I have indicated a number of times on this forum, I am presently undecided between Obama and Barr. I wouldn't call either of them a "creature". I would reserve that term for supporters of the Bush/Cheney/McCain neocon policy of aggression in the Middle East.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
That's the kind of gloating bullying I would expect from the denizens of Free Republic. Has this site turned into a new version of Free Republic?
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
Take a look at #30, and take a look at the postings that follow on this thread.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
there are only the posts of one that could be construed as favorable toward war aggression. in your post on the other thread you said the people on this forum "attacking" wright and obama have little or no criticism for bush/cheney/mcCain. that would include myself and most others who have always been against the ziobots/neocons from both parties. although, i wouldn't characterize our bringing forth information about the policies and positions of obama et al as attacking.
You seem not to have noticed the applause that that poster got on this thread, and on the absence of any criticism or disagreement, except from myself.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
I don't see any applause, all I see is one person asking who the zionist shill is supporting.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
#36 repeats a post that character made on another thread, in agreement with other posters.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
That's the same person.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
I was called a communist and insane yesterday for having a difference of opinion with someone regarding Mass. health care. Seems to be a pattern. Now I have 3 on bozo.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
Nuts.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" And I have repeatedly been called a "Commie" by several posters here over the past week or so.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
For me its why bother as the assertation is its own critique.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" yeah, i did. show me. also, you seem to have missed _______'s answer to PnbC in #39.
I've been called a communist, a nazi, a zionist, a dope-fiend, a control freak, trailer trash, an elitist, an America hater, a nationalist, and a kook. And some poor soul got the idea somewhere that I'm a hindu. I guess I'm what they call "complex".
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
I took #39 to be an attack on me. PnbC has explained to me that it was not.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
So has Robin. These words are in my view meangingless emoticons. Seems to me all governments are "communistic" the only concern is to keep it working for the decent citizens and not cliques of the elite. What are we going to do, all build our own road to the next town? The communisum charge has political and emotive weight due to its demonization of Russia and China etc, yet our own home grown monsters have done many of the same things those regimes have. If Clinton gets elected and re elected we would have had a Bush Clinton regime in power for twenty eight years. Thats a regime.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" ah, ok. it was directed at _______, not you. this medium can be problematic. the written word often times is perceived as much harsher than intended and someone will focus on a phrase or a few words of a comment, taking it out of context, rather than the totality of it. we're all very opinionated too and emotions run high on many of the topics we discuss.
well said, tom
I guess I'm what they call "complex". very!
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
I've decided the old labels we have for parties and governments are meaningless. If EU is socialist, what is the US with the ZioNazis and the Bush Regime?
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
The personal attacks against me are recent also. I have not actually used the bozo filter before.
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
A for-profit kibbutz?
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
The labels are to control fear or stifle discussion. Look no further the small government less spending republican ideology in action! I am so far right that I am left.
"Satan / Cheney in "08" I am so far right that I am left. lol!
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
You bozoed me because you were unable to explain how you could, on one hand, spend years posting articles accusing the United States federal government of participating in every evil action ever thought of, while on the other hand, demanding that we all put our trust in this same entity because only they have our best interests in mind as it pertains to healthcare. When I pointed out the insanity of holding these two views, you ran away. In hindsite, instead of insanity, I should have used illogical. It is not logical to spend years believing the worst about the federal government and then turn around and claim that this same government will have your best interests in mind in regards to healthcare.
Maybe because you have never been been a proponent of turning to the government for your wants until recently. However, a little review will show that those who look to the government to solve their wants have never had an easy go of it here. Does the name Minerva ring a bell? He/She was trounced on a regular basis for her big governmet beliefs. There have been several others as well. Now you're even trying to play the victim when it's you who have changed, not others.
I find it interesting that people still claim that Obama and the DP are "anti- war." Just look at all of the information that has come up concerning the lies and outright criminal actions on the part of ther Bush administration, yet not a word about it from the lips of Obama or the DP. Where are the calls for investigation? Where are the calls for impeachment? There are none. For that matter, it's not even being discussed! Why isn't this issue being used by Obama and the DP to hammer the RP? Why isn't Obama and the DP denouncing these actions? Why? Because they are all part of the same two party fraud. They are an oligarchy and both McCain, Hillary, and Obama are members in good standing of this oligarchy. Those who are not members in good standing get treated like Paul and Kacinich.
exactly...and i've posted that so many times, my finger tips are raw. ;)
Supporting one party over the other is similar to supporting the bloods over the crips. Both have the same goals, the only disagreement concerns distribution of the loot.
“Our battered suitcases were piled on the sidewalk again; we had longer ways to go. But no matter, the road is life." - Jack Kerouac
As long as the troops are all Kenyan, like Obama's drunken slob lecher of a father, it's fine with me.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
Funny, ain't it? I've been called a Nazi, a fascist, a right-winger, an America hater, a Bush lover, a Zionist, an anti-Semite, a leftist, a closet homoexual, a homophobe, a racist, and other things I have forgotten.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
i'll add one. sexist. ;)
www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article983625.ece
'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz
You left out hill billy...how come? That is an honorable description.
These are the cigarettes this Turtle smokes.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
That one's true.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
I thot maybe you had gone uppity on the rest of us. Nothing worse than an uppity hill billy.
No one has me on bozo because I'm so lovable. Besides, Farmfriend is at the end of the line for the Magic Wand, and if she bozos me she'll be out of the line permanently!
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
Turtle and family.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
There is a resemblance.
I don't have red hair, ha ha.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
One person put me on bozo after the last contentious AGW thread. Their loss. You don't want to try my ear muffs do you? Natural, home grown...ear muffs.
I don't care for the bozo/kill file feature, but have been using it for the first time when posters aggressively promote the social cancer of racism. It has been nice not looking at that diarrhea of a pointless spew. Everyone is off the bozo for the time being, as that is something I don't feel someone should do in a forum on a long term basis.
I admit I have been tempted.
"I can kill you with my brain." - River Tam
I didn't agree with saddling up with Communists in WWII, I didn't agree with the World Communist UN on American soil and I'LL BE DAMNED before I hitch up with any Communists in a revolution. To hell with the Communists, NeoCommunists and Neoconservatives!
LOL, that's about the right size anyway.
A key adviser to Senator Obama's campaign is recommending in a confidential paper that America keep between 60,000 and 80,000 troops in Iraq as of late 2010, a plan at odds with the public pledge of the Illinois senator to withdraw combat forces from Iraq within 16 months of taking office.
#2. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#1)
It's not really "at odds." All one has to do is re-define the meaning of combat troops and *presto* problem solved. We'll just have 10,000s of "advisors" running around Iraq.
#3. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#1)
"My plan also allows for a limited number of U.S. troops to remain and prevent Iraq from becoming a haven for international terrorism and reduce the risk of all-out chaos. In addition, we will redeploy our troops to other locations in the region, reassuring our allies that we will stay engaged in the Middle East."
#4. To: christine (#3)
(Edited)
the fact is, nothing will change in regard to ME foreign policy with anyone from the democrat party. the puppet will do the bidding of his globalist masters.
#5. To: Pinguinite (#4)
Nothing short of a US bankruptcy will end the occupation/war, and maybe not even that.
#6. To: christine (#0)
Mr. Kahl yesterday said, "This has absolutely zero to do with the campaign." He added,
#7. To: Brian S, aristeides, iconoclast, Elliott Jackalope, Arator, vast rightwing conspirator (#6)
#8. To: Pinguinite, Pissed Off Janitor, christine (#4)
#9. To: Horse (#8)
#10. To: Horse (#8)
From Two Party System... ...to Two Family System.
#11. To: Horse (#8)
Both political parties are Zionist entities. It is not for nothing that people call our government ZOG (Zionist Oxxupation Group.)
#12. To: Horse (#8)
Both political parties are Zionist entities. It is not for nothing that people call our government ZOG (Zionist Oxxupation Group.)
#13. To: Zoroaster (#12)
The only way to save America is to round up the tribe and confine it to reservations.
From Two Party System... ...to Two Family System.
#14. To: Horse (#8)
The troops have to stay in Iraq until the war with Iran starts.
#15. To: Jethro Tull (#14)
CHICAGO, Oct. 31 — Senator Barack Obama said he would “engage in aggressive personal diplomacy” with Iran if elected president, and would offer economic inducements and a possible promise not to seek “regime change” if Iran stopped meddling in Iraq and cooperated on terrorism and nuclear issues.
#16. To: Jethro Tull, Horse (#14)
The troops have to stay in Iraq until the war with Iran starts.
From Two Party System... ...to Two Family System.
#17. To: aristeides (#15)
#18. To: Jethro Tull (#17)
#19. To: aristeides (#18)
I suggest people look at the relative dates of his speech to AIPAC and his interview where he said he would negotiate with Iran. Which is more recent?
#20. To: Jethro Tull (#19)
(Edited)
#21. To: aristeides (#20)
And a politician's speech to AIPAC is likely at best to shade that politician's true beliefs
#22. To: Jethro Tull (#21)
#23. To: aristeides (#22)
#24. To: Jethro Tull (#14)
In more than one article I read, the answer was to Afghanistan
#25. To: christine (#24)
For the Record:
Barack Obama on the WarObama's Votes on the War
#26. To: Jethro Tull (#25)
In short, Obama is a war-wolf in sheep's clothing. His empty promises and false advertisements aim only at diverting the American people's anti-war struggles and buying time for the warmakers to continue their occupation of Iraq.
#27. To: Jethro Tull (#25)
Obama further insists that any "drawdown" or "redeployment" of U.S. troops in Iraq should be used to escalate the so-called "war on terrorism" in other places. Obama writes: "drawing down our troops in Iraq will allow us to redeploy additional troops to Northern Iraq and elsewhere in the region as an over-the-horizon force. . . . Perhaps most importantly, some of these troops could be redeployed to Afghanistan. . . By redeploying from Iraq to Afghanistan, we will answer NATO's call for more troops and provide a much-needed boost to this critical fight against terrorism."
#28. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#26)
(Edited)
Those troops are never coming home.
#29. To: _______ (#28)
#30. To: aristeides (#29)
Fuck Iran
#31. To: _______ (#30)
#32. To: aristeides (#31)
#33. To: _______ (#32)
#34. To: aristeides (#33)
#35. To: _______ (#34)
YOU are the one shilling for the Commies on Freedom4um.
#36. To: aristeides (#35)
Dance, monkey, dance!
#37. To: _______, aristeides (#36)
From Two Party System... ...to Two Family System.
#38. To: christine (#27)
Obama further insists that any "drawdown" or "redeployment" of U.S. troops in Iraq should be used to escalate the so-called "war on terrorism" in other places. Obama writes: "drawing down our troops in Iraq will allow us to redeploy additional troops to Northern Iraq and elsewhere in the region as an over-the-horizon force. . . . Perhaps most importantly, some of these troops could be redeployed to Afghanistan. . . By redeploying from Iraq to Afghanistan, we will answer NATO's call for more troops and provide a much-needed boost to this critical fight against terrorism."
#39. To: PnbC (#37)
And what sort of creature are YOU backing (or at least hoping) for president?
#40. To: PnbC (#37)
#41. To: _______ (#36)
Dance, monkey, dance!
#42. To: Christine (#30)
#43. To: aristeides (#42)
#44. To: christine (#43)
#45. To: aristeides (#44)
#46. To: Dakmar (#45)
(Edited)
#47. To: aristeides (#46)
#48. To: aristeides (#44)
#49. To: christine (#0)
"Stay on Success: A Policy of Conditional Engagement,
#50. To: robin, Christine (#48)
#51. To: aristeides (#44)
, and on the absence of any criticism or disagreement, except from myself.
#52. To: aristeides, _______, PnbC (#44)
You seem not to have noticed the applause that that poster got on this thread,
#53. To: aristeides, robin (#50)
#54. To: christine, PnbC (#52)
#55. To: aristeides (#50)
repeatedly been called a "Commie" by several posters here over the past week or so.
#56. To: aristeides (#54)
#57. To: tom007 (#55)
#58. To: Dakmar (#53)
And some poor soul got the idea somewhere that I'm a hindu.
#59. To: tom007 (#55)
#60. To: aristeides (#50)
#61. To: robin (#59)
If EU is socialist, what is the US with the ZioNazis and the Bush Regime?
#62. To: robin (#59)
I've decided the old labels we have for parties and governments are meaningless.
#63. To: Dakmar, tom007 (#61)
A for-profit kibbutz?
#64. To: robin (#48)
I was called a communist and insane yesterday for having a difference of opinion with someone regarding Mass. health care. Seems to be a pattern. Now I have 3 on bozo.
#65. To: robin (#60)
The personal attacks against me are recent also. I have not actually used the bozo filter before.
#66. To: christine (#0)
#67. To: Hayek Fan (#66)
Why? Because they are all part of the same two party fraud. They are an oligarchy and both McCain, Hillary, and Obama are members in good standing of this oligarchy. Those who are not members in good standing get treated like Paul and Kacinich.
#68. To: Hayek Fan (#66)
#69. To: christine (#0)
#70. To: Dakmar (#53)
(Edited)
I've been called a communist, a nazi, a zionist, a dope-fiend, a control freak, trailer trash, an elitist, an America hater, a nationalist, and a kook. And some poor soul got the idea somewhere that I'm a hindu.
#71. To: YertleTurtle (#70)
#72. To: YertleTurtle (#70)
#73. To: YertleTurtle (#70)
and other things I have forgotten.
#74. To: robin (#72)
#75. To: Cynicom (#73)
You left out hill billy...how come?
#76. To: YertleTurtle (#75)
#77. To: robin, farmfriend (#48)
Now I have 3 on bozo.
#78. To: Cynicom (#76)
Nothing worse than an uppity hill billy.
#79. To: YertleTurtle (#78)
#80. To: Cynicom (#79)
There is a resemblance.
#81. To: YertleTurtle, robin (#77)
No one has me on bozo because I'm so lovable.
Besides, Farmfriend is at the end of the line for the Magic Wand, and if she bozos me she'll be out of the line permanently!
Vote Republicrat or Democin, it doesn't matter, you still get McHillobama
#82. To: farmfriend (#81)
Obama for president 2008
#83. To: Ferret Mike (#82)
It has been nice not looking at that diarrhea of a pointless spew.
Vote Republicrat or Democin, it doesn't matter, you still get McHillobama
#84. To: farmfriend (#81)
You don't want to try my ear muffs do you?
#85. To: christine (#52)
#86. To: YertleTurtle (#84)
Vote Republicrat or Democin, it doesn't matter, you still get McHillobama
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