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(s)Elections
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Title: ARG Poll has PA tied between Obama and Clinton at 45-45
Source: Democratic Underground
URL Source: [None]
Published: Apr 7, 2008
Author: DU people
Post Date: 2008-04-07 17:42:11 by ghostdogtxn
Keywords: None
Views: 4055
Comments: 259

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#161. To: aristeides (#159)

Just curious. I assume you consider Hillary a better selection than McCain, should Obama fail, would you hold your nose and select her?

I will grant you that, let's say that there's 10% about Hillary Clinton that we don't know yet, I will grant you that, but I would say there's also about 50% about Barack Obama that we don't know yet," Ed Rendell said.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-08   14:38:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#162. To: Peppa (#156)

Jeffrey Rosen’s TRB column in the February 27, 2208, New Republic is about how Obama would be the first truly civil libertarian president. That column really sums up what I like about Obama. As a libertarian, civil and fiscal, I don’t agree with a lot of his ideas, but I love his honest and strong civil libertarian bent. After the Bush 43 years this approach to personal liberty and privacy would be a welcome change.

And as far as government spending goes, I’m going to go out on a limb and guess he’d be less “liberal” than Bush. Sure Obama’s spending will focus on different areas than Bush’s, but in pure government expansion it’s almost impossible for Obama, or any other “spend thrift liberal,” to match Bush’s woeful record. Plus an Obama presidency might push the GOP to look deep into the dark night and find a core that seems to be lost in Rovian factions and coalitions. The Rove gloat of creating a generation of GOP rule died, oh, about two or three years in.

All that being said, I sincerely hope Obama wins either Texas or Ohio and forces Clinton out of the Democratic nomination race. Of course that would also involve Clinton conceding with grace. An outcome still in serious doubt at this time.

Here is Rosen’s lede:

If Barack Obama were to win the Democratic nomination and the White House, he would be, among other things, our first civil libertarian president. This is clear not just from his lifetime rating on the ACLU’s scorecard (82 percent compared to John McCain’s 25 percent). It is clear from the fact that civil liberties have been among his most passionate interests–as a constitutional law professor, state legislator, and senator. On the campaign trail, he has been unapologetic about these enthusiasms. In New Hampshire, I heard him end a rousing stump speech by promising the cheering crowd, “We will close Guantánamo, we will restore habeas corpus, we will have a president who will respect and obey the Constitution.” Has a political consultant ever urged a candidate to brandish habeas corpus?

Obama, the civil libertarian.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:39:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#163. To: Pinguinite (#149)

well, we have to start with the belief that our votes are counted. i happen to believe they don't and that the PTB choose who's going to be president years in advance. i think our elections have been manipulated and fraudulent for years (i read Votescam: The Stealing of America in 2001).

i was a reluctant voter for RP from the getgo because of this conviction. that's the reason i was so disappointed and angered when he made the declaration that vote fraud hadn't affected his results in NH and the primary after that. imo, illuminating vote fraud would have been the biggest favor RP could have done for us and this country. for without honest elections, we have nothing. no government for, by, and of the people.

this is probably the main issue that separates in the current debate. others, obviously, believe that they're electing.

i won't ever vote for one of their selection. it would be an endorsement that i believe in it and will continue to accept it.

christine  posted on  2008-04-08   14:39:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#164. To: aristeides (#159)

So let me be perfectly clear: I have taught the Constitution, I understand the Constitution, and I will obey the Constitution when I am President of the United States.

Coming from anyone besides Ron Paul and maybe Bob Barr, this is an ominous.....lie. Got to admit that.

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-04-08   14:40:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#165. To: Jethro Tull (#153)

But not like McCain. No one is getting into the WH w/o a certain level of acceptance from that quarter.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   14:41:08 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#166. To: Cynicom (#160)

He hasn't just taught the Constitution at probably the most conservative major law school in the country, the University of Chicago, he was repeatedly offered tenure there. (He didn't take it, because he didn't want to teach full-time.)

Don't you think his fellow law professors there knew something?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:41:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#167. To: Jethro Tull (#161)

Oh ye of little faith.

Ari has already applied for tickets for Queen Hillarys coronation.

Obama will be her batman.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   14:42:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#168. To: Pinguinite (#164)

No doubt he has a different view of what the Constitution means than you do.

But he sincerely believes in civil liberties. Otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly call for restoring habeas corpus in his stump speeches.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:43:12 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#169. To: aristeides (#166)

Don't you think his fellow law professors there knew something?

Yes indeed, their eyes saw black. And their ears heard English, all that was required.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   14:43:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#170. To: Jethro Tull (#161)

I don't think I could vote for Hillary. If she got the nomination, I think I would vote third-party.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:44:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#171. To: Peppa (#158)

Obama could indeed be worse, by looking at his fiscal mentality, of which there is none. Spend spend spend, more more programs, and we are broke. He is well aware that we are in the ME forever.

You're ignoring the economic costs of a war with Iran, I think.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:45:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#172. To: christine, Original_Intent, TwentyTwelve, wudidiz, JamesDeffenbach, buckeye, Cynicom, JethroTull, lodwick, Critter, _______, Pinguinite, FormerLurker, farmfriend, *North American Union* (#163) (Edited)

All three will bring us fully into the NAU and complete bastardization of our nation to the globalist god.

I resemble those remarks...well done Christine! I don't care to see what B.O., Hitlery OR McTraitor are going to do and doubt we'll get the opportunity to chat about it before long.


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   14:45:39 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#173. To: Cynicom (#160)

McCain and Hillary are not even mouthing these words, like restoring habeas corpus. Obama is saying them. It remains to be seen whether he will act on them or not.

But a candidate who will not even say this, will never act on it.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   14:45:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#174. To: aristeides (#159)

So let me be perfectly clear: I have taught the Constitution, I understand the Constitution, and I will obey the Constitution when I am President of the United States.

ROFLMAO!

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   14:46:30 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#175. To: aristeides (#168)

No doubt he has a different view of what the Constitution means than you do.

Yeah, B.O. subscribes to the "Steal from them to give to whoever votes for me" principles of the Constitution...LOLOL


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   14:47:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#176. To: Peppa (#174)

ROFLMAO!

Quite an argument.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:48:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#177. To: aristeides (#168)

But he sincerely believes in civil liberties. Otherwise he wouldn't repeatedly call for restoring habeas corpus in his stump speeches.

I am astounded you know every tiny nuance by Obama, bordering on idolatry.

Yet you were never interested in Paul, the one man that made the rest look like the run of the mill politicians they are.

i·dol·a·try (-dl-tr) n. pl. i·dol·a·tries 1. Worship of idols. 2. Blind or excessive devotion to something.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   14:48:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#178. To: Peppa (#172)

I don't care to see what B.O., Hitlery OR McTraitor are going to do and doubt we'll get the opportunity to chat about it before long.

meant to PiNg you!


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   14:48:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#179. To: robin (#173)

I recall Bush and his "compassionate conservatism" and "follow the Constitution"...

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   14:50:11 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#180. To: aristeides (#171)

Obama could indeed be worse, by looking at his fiscal mentality, of which there is none. Spend spend spend, more more programs, and we are broke. He is well aware that we are in the ME forever. You're ignoring the economic costs of a war with Iran, I think.

Yes, we are at war. If Iran is averted, it's not like our costs are going down now is it? Why more programs? We are 9T in debt, and he want's more programs. That costs money. Money we don't have. Jobs are leaving, people are losing jobs, so, shouldn't we pay the debt we have, rather than incur more debt for programs we can't afford?

Cutting any programs will tick off that voting block. So, I suggest a 100% tax on a targeted segment society. Who should pay?

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   14:50:18 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#181. To: Cynicom (#177) (Edited)

As I have said here repeatedly, the only presidential candidate I have contributed to this campaign season so far is Ron Paul. (And I made no effort to get my money refunded either, unlike some.)

I heard Obama make that statement about restoring habeas corpus in another stump speech he made, when he took his campaign from Iowa to New Hampshire. (That's the same speech that Jeffrey Rosen heard and commented on.) I happened to have C-SPAN Radio on at the time his speech came on.

And yes, I admit I was impressed by his statement. I think I even posted a thread here at the time. I know I posted one when he made the same statement when he accepted Dodd's endorsement a few weeks later.

Unlike some, I do not have a closed mind.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:51:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#182. To: Peppa (#180)

If Iran is averted, it's not like our costs are going down now is it?

You think a man who can joke about "bomb bomb Iran" will avoid war with that country?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:52:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#183. To: Cynicom (#177)

I've never heard ari say nary a dirty nuanced word about the North American Union...have you?

That's the fait accompli that finishes off America for GOOD and the status quo completes it during the next Administration.

Rearrange deck chairs on the CFR/D/R Titanic all they'd like, but America is finished and there is no political avenue that will fix it in time unless the corrupt process is broken by force.


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   14:52:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#184. To: Cynicom (#179)

There is every reason to be cynical. I see no similarities in the backgrounds and characters of Bush and Obama.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   14:53:02 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#185. To: Cynicom (#179)

I recall Bush and his "compassionate conservatism" and "follow the Constitution"...

The difference is that most politicians are scared of raising the issue of habeas corpus. That's why most of them don't.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:53:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#186. To: Cynicom (#179)

Someone called the v2.1 "Convenient" Konservatism IIRC...


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   14:53:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#187. To: aristeides (#176)

ROFLMAO! Quite an argument.

Ari, you ignore all truths about Obama. He voted for the Patriot Act. We've been through this before.

You did not offer me any clarification above my post about Habeus being restored to detainees..only a speech that mentions it. You know, if you want to debate facts, then bring some. While words are nice, I'd like to see where he puts them in action. Thanks anyway..

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   14:54:26 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#188. To: Peppa (#187)

He talked about restoring habeas corpus in general. He didn't say he was restricting that to Guantanamo, and there's no reason to interpret his words that way.

But, even if you do, those of us who care about civil liberties would like to see habeas corpus restored even for the detainees at Guantanamo.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   14:56:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#189. To: aristeides (#181)

Unlike some, I do not have a closed mind.

Perhaps you are confusing people with "closed minds" with people that have had enough of politics and will no longer follow the ring in our noses.

This nation suffered thru eight long years with Clinton, another eight with Bush and you want us to accept the next Johnny come lately being foisted upon us by the system?

We arrived at this place in history by voting for lesser of two evils with both evils serving the same master, somehow believing Obama is his own man by people is a valid sign that the government propaganda does indeed work on non thinking people.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   14:58:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#190. To: Cynicom (#179)

GWBs Humble Foreign Policy

I will grant you that, let's say that there's 10% about Hillary Clinton that we don't know yet, I will grant you that, but I would say there's also about 50% about Barack Obama that we don't know yet," Ed Rendell said.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-08   14:58:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#191. To: aristeides (#182) (Edited)

You think a man who can joke about "bomb bomb Iran" will avoid war with that country?

And by that do you suggest I support McCain? I've posted much about Obama's advisors strategy on this. Were you able to connect the dots? Obama is saying what we want to hear, but what is playing out here is a redeployment of troops for a much bigger one. Bigger wider war, more troops.. now THAT is more expensive no? Maybe it is that staying out of Iran is the better thing no matter what else blows up........

Then, with trusty McCain in the Senate, he can vote the funds for it! So, in a way, you could get it all.

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   15:00:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#192. To: aristeides (#188)

He talked about restoring habeas corpus in general. He didn't say he was restricting that to Guantanamo, and there's no reason to interpret his words that way.

Don't interpret for me, I just looked at the legislation brought forward.

But, even if you do, those of us who care about civil liberties would like to see habeas corpus restored even for the detainees at Guantanamo.

Habeus should be restored for all, so why the limited application in the legislation? Hmmmmmmmmmmmm?

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   15:02:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#193. To: Cynicom (#189)

A 'New World Order' for Conservatives? (McCain - North American Union)


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   15:02:21 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#194. To: aristeides, Peppa, robin, Cynicom, Jethro Tull, ghostdogtxn, Ferret Mike, ALL (#189)

this is an excellent thread with excellent debate absent of personal animous. that makes me happy. ;)

christine  posted on  2008-04-08   15:05:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#195. To: FOH (#183)

After this country was gang raped by the Clintons and the Bushes it is difficult for me to accept that intelligent Americans are perfectly willing to follow any new Pied Piper that the ruling elite put out front.

These people would have you believe that the $2 million a day that rolls in to Obama are coming from Mom and Pop at ten bucks a clip. Right.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   15:06:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#196. To: christine (#194)

this is an excellent thread with excellent debate absent of personal animous. that makes me happy. ;)

There's still time.. ;)

JUST KIDDING.

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   15:07:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#197. To: FOH (#178)

I don't care to see what B.O., Hitlery OR McTraitor are going to do and doubt we'll get the opportunity to chat about it before long. meant to PiNg you!

Thanks FOH!

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   15:08:33 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#198. To: Cynicom (#195)

Welcome to the New Communist World Order of One World Communist Monopolists...


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   15:08:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#199. To: Peppa (#197)

I guess some folks will just go ahead and support a North American Unioner...sad.


What North American Union? STOP the North American Union!
~~~~~> Have you seen THIS yet? TIME IS RUNNING OUT!

FOH  posted on  2008-04-08   15:09:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#200. To: robin (#139) (Edited)

The Clinton years were bad, they were awful, but not as bad as the Bush years.

Nor could they have been, the nation was much younger and not primed for the takedown. That was Clinton's job. Clinton=Bush=Clinton/Obama/McCain

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   15:10:36 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#201. To: FOH (#198)

Welcome to the New Communist World Order of One World Communist Monopolists...

FOH...

I am so olde that I remember when State Government was the people that maintained the roads.

The Federal Government was some body of no gooders that inhabited some swampland down in MD and VA. We heard nothing from Washington and very little from the State. We got by on our own.

Then along came this countries first "savior" FDR. Now we have the second "savior" Obama.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   15:12:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  



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