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War, War, War
See other War, War, War Articles

Title: Top general in Iraq war to urge patience
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080408 ... t=AgFac3oOyRIXR8cRvqGoTcWs0NUE
Published: Apr 8, 2008
Author: ANNE FLAHERTY
Post Date: 2008-04-08 08:31:59 by angle
Keywords: None
Views: 295
Comments: 31

WASHINGTON - The four-star general in charge of Iraq wants more time in a war that is now in its sixth year. Democrats say he's got until the November elections.

Gen. David Petraeus planned to testify Tuesday on the war for the first time in seven months. He was expected to tell two Senate committees that last year's influx of 30,000 troops in Iraq had helped calm some of the sectarian violence but that to prevent a backslide in security, troops would likely be needed in large numbers through the end of the year.

Under his proposal, as many as 140,000 troops could be in Iraq when voters head to the polls this fall.

Democrats contend that this approach guarantees an open-ended commitment to a $10-billion-a-month war as the economy at home is faltering. They say the lack of political progress made in Iraq, as well as the recent spike in violence in Basra, indicates the troop buildup has failed.

"We need a strategy that will clearly shift the burden to the Iraqis, that'll begin to take the pressure off our forces, begin to allow us to respond to other challenges in the region and worldwide," said Sen. Jack Reed, D-R.I., a member of the Armed Services Committee.

Democrats also acknowledge that they are more or less helpless in trying to force President Bush's hand on the war. While anti-war legislation has been able to pass the House, it repeatedly sinks in the Senate, where Democrats lack the 60 votes needed to overcome procedural hurdles.

They contend, however, that come fall dissatisfied voters will head to the polls and put more Democrats in power, possibly including an anti-war president. In last month's Associated Press-Ipsos poll, only 31 percent said they approve of the job Bush is doing on Iraq.

Indeed, Tuesday's hearings are expected to be about as much as the presidential elections as they are about the state of Iraq. The three major candidates for president are on the committees for which Petraeus is providing testimony.

Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the No. 1 Republican on the Armed Services Committee, and Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, D-N.Y., a member of the panel, are expected to use the morning committee hearing to showcase their opposing views on the war. Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., will get his chance later that afternoon as member of the Foreign Relations Committee.

For now, Petraeus faces a dramatically different political landscape than last fall when support for the war had been eroding steadily among Republicans. Petraeus' testimony helped shore up GOP defections at the time. And since then, a significant drop in violence has helped stave off legislation ordering troops home.

Recent statistics reviewed by the AP show that while violence in Iraq is still down substantially, there have been spikes in both deaths and attacks since the slow withdrawal of U.S. troops began in December.

The internal strife was underscored by a rise in ethno-sectarian violence between Iraqis in March, the first such monthly increase since last July.

Defense officials also warned Monday of another likely spike in attacks this week, as U.S. forces strike back at militia fighters in Sadr City. And officials also said there are indications that al-Qaida is looking for an opportunity to reassert its influence in the Baghdad region.

With the Petraeus testimony approaching, only a subtle shift is expected in the GOP message. In addition to insisting that troops must stay in Iraq to fight the terrorists, which has been the party line for some time, Republicans are expected to talk more about the need for a comprehensive political settlement among Baghdad politicians. They believe that this tracks more closely with the voters' views that the U.S. commitment cannot be indefinite.

Petraeus' plan would allow the five extra brigades ordered to Iraq last year to withdraw by July without ordering their replacement. After that, he and other military officials would wait to see whether Iraq was stable enough to allow additional troops to leave.

His presentation was expected to include statistics reflecting the reduction in violence over the past seven months. It also will note the latest Iraqi-led operation in Basra and could give lawmakers more detail on the level of Iranian involvement in the fighting.

Ryan Crocker, the U.S. ambassador to Iraq, is expected to testify that there has been modest but positive political progress.

Also this week, possibly on Thursday when Bush addresses the nation on the war, the administration plans to announce that soldiers will spend no longer than 12 months at a time in combat, a decrease of three months in current combat tours.

I say ENOUGH.

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#1. To: All (#0)

news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2008...EGW0IXaa0OgQP8_tnObus0NUE

High drama expected as Petraeus heads to Congress by Stephen Collinson 17 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AFP) - The top US general and diplomat in Iraq testify in politically charged hearings in Congress Tuesday, and face a grilling from three senators vying to inherit the war as the next US president.

General David Petraeus and Ambassador to Baghdad Ryan Crocker will appear before the Senate Armed Services and Foreign Relations committees to update progress in the war and President George W. Bush's "surge" troop hike strategy.

All three presidential candidates, Republican John McCain and Democrats Barack Obama or Hillary Clinton, will be on hand for the testimony, which comes on the eve of a mass rally in Baghdad to protest the US presence in Iraq.

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   8:33:27 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#2. To: All (#1)

news.yahoo.com/s/afp/2008...EGW0IXaa0OgQP8_tnObus0NUE

Another nine US soldiers have been killed in Iraq in the past three days, eight of them in Baghdad where American and Iraqi forces have been battling heavily armed Shiite militiamen in their Sadr City bastion since Sunday.

The latest fighting comes ahead of a mass rally in Sadr City Wednesday to protest against the US presence.

At least a million protesters are expected to attend the demonstration, which coincides with the fifth anniversary of Saddam's overthrow.

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   8:34:24 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#3. To: angle (#0)

And since then, a significant drop in violence has helped stave off legislation ordering troops home.

This is major league bull$h!t.

Congress has been rendered impotent and largely meaningless. Most have been blackmailed and/or bribed.

And even if some of them did get together and pass legislation, the Chimp would just issue a signing statement reinterpreting it to mean a troop buildup instead.

“I would give no thought of what the world might say of me, if I could only transmit to posterity the reputation of an honest man.” - Sam Houston

Sam Houston  posted on  2008-04-08   8:48:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#4. To: Sam Houston (#3)

Most have been blackmailed and/or bribed.

Don't forget "threatened." Wellstone / Gillmor bump.

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   8:50:43 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#5. To: angle (#0)

Now that the war is won the Dimmies are urging a cut and run strategy. Hillary and Obama are the best political operatives President McCain could have.

Hagee  posted on  2008-04-08   9:20:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#6. To: Hagee (#5)

Now that the war is won

You mean, "Mission Accomplished?"

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   10:01:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#7. To: angle (#0)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-04-08   10:47:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#8. To: Hagee (#5)

"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams (1722-1803)‡

ghostdogtxn  posted on  2008-04-08   10:49:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#9. To: Hagee (#5)

Now that the war is won the Dimmies are urging a cut and run strategy.

If the war is won, then it's definitely time to come home.

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-04-08   11:25:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#10. To: angle (#0)

The Iraq debacle has long since turned into "Groundhog Day".

I cling to hope of a 50 state repudiation of the traitorous, neocon Plutocrat Party

iconoclast  posted on  2008-04-08   11:29:35 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#11. To: iconoclast (#10)

The Iraq debacle has long since turned into "Groundhog Day".

Excellent anaylsis.

"Hello Rothschild's cattle!" ~ Deek Jackson

angle  posted on  2008-04-08   11:30:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#12. To: Hagee (#5)

Now that the war is won the Dimmies are urging a cut and run strategy.

Great, what do I win?

Maybe the US should try losing for once. WWI gave us WWII. WWII gave us the cold war. The Cold War gave the WOsT.

I say we give militant Isolation a try.

"The more I see of life, the less I fear death." - Me.

"If violence solved nothing, then weapons technology would have never advanced past crude clubs and rocks." - Me.

Pissed Off Janitor  posted on  2008-04-08   12:18:15 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#13. To: Pissed Off Janitor (#12)

I say we give militant Isolation a try.

I like that term. We could aggressively avoid entanglements. Intervening in other peoples' conflicts sure hasn't done us a lot of good, unless the intent was to get embroiled in future ones.

I've grown weary of the speeches (especially from McCain) about how we can't abandon the Iraqis because without us they won't take over their responsibilities, which is a breathtaking statement he made last night or two nights ago to the VFW. His statement has to be truly offensive to any Iraqis, because he's implying that they're some kind of savages that without the magnanimous assistance of the indispensible nation they wouldn't be able to figure out a way to eventually stop killing each other. It's like he doesn't realize that Iraqis tend to LIVE IN IRAQ, so they would have a vested interest in figuring it out. There might be bloodshed involved in getting to that point, but it's not like it's a peaceful paradise now.

I'm confident that part of the increase in violence is specifically timed for now because of Petreus' testimony in front of Congress. There is a very large information warfare component to insurgencies and 4th Generation War, and they pay attention to what's going on, because part of their goal is to erode public support in the occupying land. Unless the occupier makes damned certain that under no circumstances will they ever leave, this kind of thing is going to go on. Pretty much the only way to assure the occupied land that you won't leave is if it's actually connected to you (like Russia and Chechnya).

In this respect the people who whine that the media erodes support are somewhat correct. The reason I say "somewhat" is that, even with a pretty effective control of media coverage to the Soviet Union about the situation in Afghanistan, the Soviets still decided they had a bad investment on their hands and that it was time to cut their losses. And the people who say that we handle Iraqis too gently (like we should be killing them like it's free, the supply is dwindling and everyone better hurry to get theirs) would need to look at how the Soviets dealt with Afghanistan, and see how effective it was for them. The Frunze Military Academy very early on (sometime around 1982) acknowledged that being too liberal with victory through firepower was counterproductive, and that for every one killed, four more began actively resisting. The Soviets' body count math got a little dodgy, too. Their numbers, when added up, indicate they killed the entire population at least once, and maybe twice, which obviously didn't happen.

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2008-04-08   13:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#14. To: historian1944 (#13)

Thanks for this information.

Lod  posted on  2008-04-08   14:40:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#15. To: angle (#0)

BetrayUs has halted the troop withdrawal.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   14:56:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#16. To: historian1944 (#13)

His statement has to be truly offensive to any Iraqis, because he's implying that they're some kind of savages that without the magnanimous assistance of the indispensible nation they wouldn't be able to figure out a way to eventually stop killing each other. It's like he doesn't realize that Iraqis tend to LIVE IN IRAQ, so they would have a vested interest in figuring it out. There might be bloodshed involved in getting to that point, but it's not like it's a peaceful paradise now.

And Iraq has had recognized civilizations for how many millennia now?

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   14:59:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#17. To: historian1944 (#13)

I believe that, at the moment, Grey and I are the only two men who doubt & distrust any such settlement. We both think that in the real interest of our own future, the best thing would be if, at the end of the War, we could say that ... we have taken & gained nothing. And that not from a merely moral & sentimental point of view ... but from purely material considerations. Taking on Mesopotamia, for instance -- with or without Alexandretta ... means spending millions in irrigation & development with no immediate or early return; keeping up quite a large army white & coloured in an unfamiliar country; tackling every kind of tangled administrative question, worse than we have ever had in India with a hornet's nest of Arab tribes.

From a letter by Prime Minister Asquith responding early in the First World War to the idea that some were suggesting that Britain should after the war annex Mesopotamia (the present-day Iraq). The passage is quoted on p. 141 of David Fromkin's A Peace to End All Peace: The Fall of the Ottoman Empire and the Creation of the Modern Middle East (1989).

The book is the standard history of the peace settlement in the Middle East after the First World War. I wonder how many of the people planning our invasion of Iraq had bothered to read the book.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-08   15:08:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#18. To: robin (#16)

It's got to be a byproduct of an Americentric view that we're the only civilized place on earth and everyone else still has outhouses, no running water and uses horses as motive power to move things.

Sure, if we withdrawal there will be a host of problems (plus some problems due to excessive celebration), but there are already a host of problems, and our presence there doesn't help any. If you want a legitimate, recognized government, having the occupying force assist it in any operation (let alone a military operation with a desired end state in mind) only destroys that legitimacy and brands it as a puppet regime. Likewise the proclamations issued from our government directing them to do things and giving them deadlines.

Regardless of our actions, they will come up with a government that fits their local customs, culture, and expectations. There's no way around that, and we continuously believe that you can simply import a foreign system of government upon people without concern about their history, and all will be well. The idea is insane, and foolish. The question of when they come up with that government is only a function of how long we're there. The longer we're there, the more difficult for them, and the more expensive for us in lives and borrowed money.

If one looks at Vietnam today (a country we now trade with) can anyone say that their situation is better today because we were there for ten years four decades ago? Even worse for those who believe that the Vietnam War wasn't an epic fool's errand, the government is essentially the same as it was then, and we happily trade with them. So why'd we waste so many lives there, when we could have done the same thing in 1965?

Rivers of blood were spilled out over land that, in normal times, not even the poorest Arab would have worried his head over." Field Marshal Erwin Rommel

historian1944  posted on  2008-04-08   15:11:47 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#19. To: historian1944 (#18)

There's no way around that, and we continuously believe that you can simply import a foreign system of government upon people without concern about their history, and all will be well. The idea is insane, and foolish.

And has cost us 4000 dead and a loss of one trillion dollars.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   15:15:29 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: historian1944 (#18)

But that's our oil under their sand, as Jim Hightower puts it.

What's best for the Iraqis has never been in the equation. When someone in charges realizes it is not even best for US, then maybe we'll get out.

'Individuals should not take responsibility for their own defense. That’s what the police are for. ... If I oppose individuals defending themselves, I have to support police defending them. I have to support a police state.”' Alan Dershowitz

robin  posted on  2008-04-08   15:25:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: historian1944 (#13)

We could aggressively avoid entanglements.

gee, where have i heard that before? ;)

christine  posted on  2008-04-08   19:25:46 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: angle (#0)

Top general in Iraq war to urge patience

All we are saying, is give war a chance.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2008-04-08   19:40:54 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: MUDDOG (#22)

All we are saying, is give war a chance.

No one seems to care that 4000 Americans have died. Look for replacements, have patience.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   19:44:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Cynicom (#23)

No one seems to care that 4000 Americans have died. Look for replacements, have patience.

It's like Watergate never happened. The imperial presidency rides high.

In a related vein, I recently saw on C-Span, Roger Mudd was reminiscing with Brian Lamb about Nixon's resignation speech.

Mudd said the CBS commentators were ordered by their superior to go easy on Nixon that night when they did the commentary on the evening news, but that Mudd was out of the office and didn't get the message.

So that night on the news, Dan Rather and Eric Sevareid are opining on what a noble speech Nixon gave ("the best of his career" according to Rather), but when it comes Mudd's turn, Mudd says what a maudlin speech it was, that Nixon apologized for nothing, and that Mudd didn't think Nixon helped himself avoid prosecution (this was before Ford pardoned him).

So Eric Sevareid gets mad and starts putting down Mudd on the air.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2008-04-08   20:03:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: MUDDOG (#24)

Perhaps it would be better to take the "military" out of the hands of the president, as it was originally intended. With power hungry presidents and a compliant Congress we will have endless wars.

Cynicom  posted on  2008-04-08   20:10:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: Cynicom (#25)

With power hungry presidents and a compliant Congress we will have endless wars.

And look how easy it was for Bush Jr. to invade Iraq merely on his own say-so, based on some kind of personal family score he had to settle with Saddam, whether because Jr. wanted to show up his father by eliminating Saddam where his father stopped short, or because Jr. felt that Saddam's continued existence was an affront to Bush family honor.

This type of exercise of war powers at the sovereign's whim was explicitly warned against in the Federalist Papers.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2008-04-08   20:21:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: MUDDOG (#26)

Mud, that was the great cover story. But I don't think that is the real story. Here are a couple of links that changed my thinking about that...........

www.ccc.nps.navy.mil /si/mar03/middleEast2.asp

www.cfr.org/publication/3...in_the_persian_gulf.html? breadcrumb=%2Fregion%2F400%2Fgulf_states

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   20:24:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: MUDDOG, cynicom, all (#24) (Edited)

Speaking of Roger Mudd.....does anyone recall his disastrous interview with Teddy Kennedy in 1979? Mudd asked him why he wanted to be president, and he began what to this day is the most amazingly dopey rant/mumble I've ever heard. I searched everywhere for it and it's apparently been cleansed from the Internets.

I will grant you that, let's say that there's 10% about Hillary Clinton that we don't know yet, I will grant you that, but I would say there's also about 50% about Barack Obama that we don't know yet," Ed Rendell said.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-08   20:35:50 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: Peppa (#27) (Edited)

Indeed, it's still a mystery what the real reason was that the US invaded Iraq.

The best I can do is, Bush Jr.'s motive was as I described it above, and the neocons around him had their own reasons for wanting war, so they were glad to encourage him to invade, whatever his motive was.

It was a classic case of courtiers using a dim-witted monarch to do what they wanted him to do for their own reasons.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2008-04-08   20:37:09 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: Jethro Tull (#28)

Mudd asked him why he wanted to be president

That would be a good one to find. Interesting that it's apparently been scrubbed.


I've already said too much.

MUDDOG  posted on  2008-04-08   20:44:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: MUDDOG (#29)

It was purely for economic control. The saudies were tired of waiting for trade access.

"The truth that makes men free is for the most part the truth which men prefer not to hear." -- Herbert Sebastien Agar (1897-1980) Source: The Time for Greatness, 1942

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-08   20:45:53 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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