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Religion
See other Religion Articles

Title: Reverend Jeremiah Wright: Religious Freedom Versus State Religion, Ethics, Politics and Strategy
Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/
URL Source: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=8735
Published: Apr 19, 2008
Author: Prof. James Petras
Post Date: 2008-04-19 22:55:27 by robin
Keywords: None
Views: 749
Comments: 58

Reverend Jeremiah Wright: Religious Freedom Versus State Religion, Ethics, Politics and Strategy

By Prof. James Petras

Global Research, April 19, 2008


Introduction

The sustained vituperative attack and the feeble apologetic defense of Reverend Wright’s brilliant, eloquent and substantive sermon in defense of human dignity speaks to the basic ethical, political and strategic issues of our epoch. For Reverend Wright was not merely ‘commenting’ on an ethical omission of our day but raising fundamental principles about the behavior of states, the role of individual conscience in the face of crimes against humanity and the need to give name and take action in the face of evil. The entire spectrum of politicians, the mass media and, in particular, the political parties and two (and a half) of the presidential candidates raise, by their hostile reaction and the substance of their criticism, vital issues of the relation between the State and Religion.

“They know what they say”, (to paraphrase and re-state Jesus Christ’s comments on his persecutors) applies with a vengeance to the barrage of mindless screeds which were intentionally launched against the Reverend’s brilliant analysis and dissection of the immoral means in pursuit of the great crimes of our epoch. Of course, the verbal assault of Reverend Wright was directed explicitly to discredit and disqualify Democratic Presidential candidate, Senator Barak Obama, a long time member of Wright’s United Church of Christ Chicago parish. Many were, and continue to be, vile accusations charging that his sermon was ‘incendiary’, ‘anti-American’, ‘racist’ and ‘politically extremist’. Phrases critical of US empire-building were dubbed the “God Damn America’ sermon. Moral condemnations of ‘war and money’ were decontextualized to accuse Reverend Wright of being ‘a man of hate’, ‘a hate monger’ and a ‘racist extremist’. The insults and verbal assassins came from both liberal and conservative politicians, writers, mass media pundits and commentators.

Barak Obama’s ‘defense’ of Wright was based on separating the benign and respected avuncular ‘person’ (or personality) of the Reverend from his brilliant, substantive, historical analysis, political diagnosis and profoundly ethical moral judgment. By defending the messenger but condemning the profound message, Obama ultimately sided with the political defenders and apologists of a brutal, militaristic, imperial order, thus enabling him to continue his electoral campaign.

Key Theoretical and Analytical Insights

Wright’s speech is informed by four profound theoretical and conceptual insights:

First, Wright’s central idea is that repeated large-scale, long-term offensive imperial wars and military actions lead to military reactions or counter-attacks on US property and lives, military and civilian, outside and inside the United States. Given the authoritarian political environment and the hostile mass media, Wright cites the utterances of a former US Ambassador and long-time member of the State Department Establishment, Edward Peck to corroborate his observation. Contrary to the pro-empire political scientists who predominate in the prestigious Ivy League universities, and ignore the historical framework of critical readings of empire building, Wright’s theoretical argument is grounded in a wealth of historical experiences, which he enumerates to reinforce his central point. His theoretical argument is woven around the 9/11 Muslim-Arab attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. He cites the colonial and post-colonial savaging of the Middle East, including the military attacks and economic boycott of Iraq, the bombing of Sudan, the US support of state terrorist regimes and the Israeli destruction of Palestinian and Lebanese lives. Imperial action and anti-imperial re-action – Wright algebraic formulation refutes the Ivy League professors’ propagandistic arguments, which extrapolate the violence of the anti-imperial reaction from its preceding bloody imperial historical framework in order to present the subsequent imperialist action as a defensive response.

Wright’s theoretical-historical correction of the false premises of orthodox academics and mainstream politicians regarding the source of violence in the international system lays the groundwork for a detailed commentary and moral judgment of the principal conflicts of our time.

By bringing to the fore a succinct enumeration of the sequence of US violent military actions from the violent seizure of Indian lands to the nuclear destruction of Hiroshima, to the colonial wars in Africa to the invasion of Panama and the bombing of Grenada, Wright establishes the historical basis for his judgment that the driving force of US foreign policy is ‘militarism and money’. His critics, unable or unwilling to challenge his historical narrative, resort to ad hominum attacks, relying on labeling techniques, attributing to him a ‘strident’ style or ‘incendiary language’.

Secondly, Wright provides a socio-psychological framework for understanding contemporary elite-manipulated and motivated mass violent sentiment in the aftermath of 9/11 and the initial general embrace of a military response.

Wright sets out a three-stage sequence of socio-psychological ‘feelings’: (1) reverence for the sites attacked and sorrow for the victims, (2) revenge against a general ‘other’ (to be designated by the imperial rulers), (3) hatred and war against enemies and unarmed innocents alike. Drawing on historical analogies with the biblical account (Psalm 137, all nine verses) of the Israelite reverence of the Temple (of Jerusalem), its destruction (by Chaldeans) and their subsequent return and revenge (slaughter and eviction of all non-Israelite inhabitants), Wright draws a parallel with the US reverence for ‘money’, symbolized by the World Trade Center, and ‘military’ (the Pentagon); their thirst for ‘revenge’ rooted in the ‘feelings’ of pain, sorrow, anger, outrage, destruction and senseless carnage’ this leads, he reasons, to hatred and demands to attack and punish ‘someone’ (‘pay back’). In our time this means killing armed adversaries and unarmed civilians – Afghanistan and Iraq, soldiers and civilians. Wright brilliantly elucidates the emotional and political link between ‘worship’ (over losses) and ‘war’, presumably to restore the ‘revered sites’ of money (financial credibility) and military power (imperial credibility).

Wright’s socio-psychological framework allows us to understand the way in which the Bush Administration blended mass objects of veneration (loss of human lives) with the sacred sites of the elite (Wall Street and the Pentagon) into a powerful engine of war. Interestingly, Wright’s citation of the biblical account of Israeli indiscriminate revenge (‘happy is he who dashes their infants against the rocks’ Psalm 137) parallels the policies and practices pursued by the contemporary American Israelite policy makers in the Pentagon who pursued policies of total destruction and dismemberment of Iraq. Though Wright does not specifically refer to this parallelism, it springs to mind when he refers to the current injustices, and his specific mention of Israeli oppression of the Palestinians as part of the global injustices.

Thirdly, Reverend Wright links his ‘practical’ historical and theoretical analysis to a set of moral judgments and policy prescriptions. The wars of the last 500 years have economic and racial dimensions (‘riches and color’) pitting rich white elites against poor people of color. Imperial violence begets oppressed violence; state terror based on superior arms begets individuals willing to sacrifice their lives in terrorist responses. Confronted with these historical and social conditions, he counsels the American people (not just his black parishioners) to engage in ‘self-reflection’. By emphasizing and giving priority to ‘self’ reflection he wants to undermine the effort of the political elites to focus mass attention on the asserted faults of ‘other people’, the target of military assaults. Wright emphasizes the need to create primary (family) and secondary (community) solidarity and affection (love) as opposed to bonding with the war-making elite. By emphasizing reflection, Wright is openly rejecting blind adhesion to the elite and belief in their lies for war.

From the Socratic logic of critical self-reflection (‘know yourself’) and solidarity, Wright envisions a time for ‘social transformation’. Armed with a social awareness of the historical and present record of elite-driven imperial wars, Wright postulates the need for fundamental structural changes, “…in the way we have been doing things as a society, a country, as an arrogant superpower. We cannot keep messing other countries”. In other words Wright links changes in inner individual spiritual and social consciousness with collective social and political action directed at a fundamental transformation of the social structure and economic and political system, which make us an ‘arrogant superpower’.

In his own words, Wright wants to convince the American people to transform imperial military wars into internal political wars against racist and class injustices. He proposes a fundamental redistribution of wealth through reallocation of the public budget. Citing the “$1.3 trillion dollar tax gift to the rich”, he counters with a policy proposal to fund universal health care and the reconstruction of the educational system to serve the poor.

Reverend Wright, in speaking to the American people, not only condemns human catastrophes inflicted on working people at home and abroad by the ‘arrogant superpower’ empire-builders, but points to the great historical opportunities for changes. His is not a message of other worldly spiritual salvation; it is a call to action here and now. His is not a superficial critique of individual misbehavior or ‘failed policies’ (as his former parishioner, Obama would have it) but a deep structural analysis of systemic failure which demands a ‘social transformation, which goes to the root of the present day policies of imperial wars and state and individual terrorism.

Conclusion

The reason for the repeated vicious personal attacks on Reverend Wright by the mass media and the political leaders and academic apologists for empire building is abundantly clear – to prevent a powerful, reasonable, logical and relevant analysis from influencing the American public or even exercising any influence on the Presidential campaign.

Equally important the political and media attacks on Reverend Wright are meant to destroy freedom of conscience, the separation of Church and State. What the critics want, is a religion and religious figures at the service of the state, which blesses war planners, honors war criminals, arouses mass hatred of state-designated target peoples. The ‘arrogant superpower’ honors the ministers, priests and rabbis who follow state policy spewing hatred against Arabs and Muslims. Nothing more and nothing less, Reverend Wright is standing in word and deed for the freedom and autonomy of individuals and institutions against the voracious spread of totalitarian state power.

Clearly the irrational vituperative, sustained attack on Reverend Wright is more than a reactionary political electoral ploy in a racist electoral campaign; it is a fundamental attack on our democratic freedoms and the autonomy of our religious institutions.

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#19. To: robnoel, MUDDOG, RickyJ, peppa, Cynicom, FOH, anti-Communists everywhere (#14)

Michael Pfleger is a socialist, trapped in white guilt, and living in a world of pedophilia.

Chicago Journal; White Priest Embraces Blacks' Spiritual Roots

By ISABEL WILKERSON, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES

Published: July 27, 1989

LEAD: Every Sunday morning, the Rev.

Every Sunday morning, the Rev.

Michael Pfleger, blond and blue-eyed, wraps himself in the multicolored vestments of an African prince and celebrates Mass with the fire and fury of a down-home Baptist minister. Over and over, his parishioners, almost all of whom are black, break into his sermon to say ''Amen'' and ''Tell it, Father Mike!'' as he shouts and preaches and jumps about an altar shaped like an African drum. Soon all the members of the congregation at St. Sabina Catholic Church are on their feet, clapping and swaying to the beat of the gospel band.

Father Pfleger is among a small but growing group of Roman Catholic pastors, several of them white, who are trying to stretch the image of Catholicism, to superimpose black and African traditions onto the basic Catholic rite. In Los Angeles, for example, people come from as far as 100 miles away for the gospel music and African dancing at Mass at St. Brigid's. The priest there, the Rev. Paul Banet, said he would now like to develop a salsa Mass with mariachi music for Hispanic parishes.

Such practices have drawn more attention and criticism in the weeks since a black priest in the Washington, the Rev. George A. Stallings Jr., started a separate black Catholic congregation, Imani Temple, on the premise that the traditional Catholic liturgy did not meet the needs of some black parishioners.

Few priests have openly come out in support of Father Stallings; the nation's 13 black bishops have publicly renounced his action. But Father Pfleger, a friend of Father Stallings's, has not only voiced support but preached it at Mass and debated a black bishop, Wilton D. Gregory, about it on local television.

''I will do whatever I have to to support Father Stallings, and he can celebrate Mass in this church any time he wants,'' Father Pfleger said.

His support of Father Stallings and his own style have brought angry letters and threats of violence from white Catholics. ''One of them called on a Sunday and said, 'I'm going to put an end to you,' '' Father Pfleger said. ''These are all people who probably went to Mass that morning.''

The Archdiocese of Chicago declined to comment on Father Pfleger, but Bishop Gregory said: ''I don't agree with every word that comes out of his mouth, but I don't question his sincerity. Our priests are watching this and examining themselves and hoping that some good comes from this moment.''

Father Pfleger, who is 40 years old and the son of a former warehouse manager, grew up in an all-white neighborhood on Chicago's South Side and became active in civil rights after attending a speech by the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. while in high school. He worked on an Indian reservation and as a seminarian in a poor neighborhood on Chicago's West Side before coming to St. Sabina 14 years ago.

Father Pfleger said he noticed that many black Catholics would attend Mass, then go to black Protestant churches or listen on the radio for ''real church.'' He figured, ''Why can't we have church at church?''

He insists that the black and African elements he added to the liturgy transcend denominational lines. ''It's not Baptist to clap one's hands or have gospel music or speak in tongues and get filled with the holy spirit,'' he said. ''It's human and spiritual. No church owns that.''

The Rev. Ronald Krisman, executive director of the Bishops' Committee on the Liturgy in Washington, said many of the new practices were within acceptable bounds, as liturgical styles have been liberalized by the church in the past two decades.

''What a normal American black parish does on Sunday is perfectly within the norm of Catholic liturgy,'' Father Krisman said. ''It's not a far-reaching adaptation. There has been more indigenization of the liturgy. It reflects the development and renewal or our liturgical life.''

But St. Sabina on Chicago's South Side is not the typical black Catholic church. Ebony wood carvings, Ashanti foot stools and kinte cloths make the altar area look more like an African art gallery. Banners of red, black and green, the colors of African liberation, hang from the rafters, along with excerpts from the Black National Anthem. A 20-foot mural of a black Jesus looms over the altar.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   13:32:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#20. To: RickyJ (#17)

Much more then you do Arete, much more.

Why would I have serious doubts about that?

Arete  posted on  2008-04-28   13:45:49 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#21. To: Father Michael Pfleger calls for GUN CONTROL (#19)

By now, you've probably heard of the recording of "moral authority" "Father" Michael Pfleger calling for John "R-i-g- g-i-o", the owner of a Chuck's Gun Shop (along with "legislators" who don't support citizen disarmament) to be "snuffed out."

Well like the good father says, "it's all about the Benjamins," which I guess is proof he understands street slang, and he understands what "snuff out" means among his (can you call a gaggle or a pack a "flock"?)

So what about the Benjamins, Mike? And why shouldn't your ability to apparently exploit tax laws the rest of us are forced to obey be snuffed out?

What am I talking about? Well, Mike's "church," St. Sabina, is a 501(c)(3) corporation.


That means, as a church, it's exempt from filing taxes, and contributions are tax deductible. But that also means, in order to qualify for this exemption, certain conditions must be adhered to. Per IRS Publication 557, Tax-Exempt Status for Your Organization, Chapter 3. Section 501(c)(3), "Application for Recognition of Exemption":

The organization will not, as a substantial part of its activities, attempt to influence legislation (unless it elects to come under the provisions allowing certain lobbying expenditures)...
When we look at the section on "Lobbying Expenditures," it says:
In general, if a substantial part of the activities of your organization consists of carrying on propaganda or otherwise attempting to influence legislation, your organization57;s exemption from federal income tax will be denied.

Father Mike's monomaniacal "crusade" against people being able to protect themselves was evidenced not only by his appearance at the rally, not only in his pledge to continue harassing lawful businesses and the citizens who operate and patronize them, and not only by a history of disarmament advocacy (Google search terms "Michael Pfleger" gun).

All one really needs to do is look at the St. Sabina webpage:


He certainly doesn't make much effort to separate "Gun Legislation to Support in Illinois" from the rest of the church's mission, does he?

And what legislation would that be? Why don't we take a look:


What are those 501(c)(3) restrictions again?

But wait--there's more. We also see a link for "The Beloved Community, Inc." which a little searching also reveals to be a 501 (c)(3) for which contributions are tax deductible:


It might not be out of line to ask why they're listed as the "bullet" (hah!) for:
Save Our Children - STOP Gangs - Killing - Guns - Drugs - What Can I Do? Download the flier and Stop sign
especially since they answered "NO" on their 2005 Form 990, Part III, "Statement About Activities," question 1:
During the year, has the organization attempted to influence national, state or local legislation, including any attempt to influence public opinion on a legislative matter or referendum?

(I could present a picture of the form in question here, but that would violate the terms of use for the information source--but the IRS will know where to find it.)

But it probably doesn't matter anyway--because the links to the information and fliers are dead (but curiously, went to St. Sabina webpages anyway, not to the "Beloved Community" site.)

Fortunately, we have one of my favorite resources, The Wayback Machine, that archived the page in question. From it, you can download their flier:



You can print out their sign:


You can "Call legislators and tell them to pass common sense gun laws..." (How very compliant with 501(c)(3) restrictions!)

You can call the anonymous hotline (paid for with tax deductible contributions?)!

And you can even get "REWARDS!"
We will offer rewards to people who call in to our anonymous hotline 773-483-HELP (4357) and give us information that leads to finding and getting guns out of our community.
Hmm. I wonder if the funds for those were taken from tax deductible donations to the church, and how much was paid out?

These are just rhetorical questions I'm asking, mind you. I personally could never sic the IRS on anyone, as I view the entire agency to be a usurpation and a betrayal of the intent of the Founders. My purpose in posting this was merely to point out some questions that deserve to be answered.

Of course, were someone from the government to use this information and "snuff out" Mike Pfleger's ability to apparently circumvent rules the rest of us must follow, well...

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   13:47:17 ET  (6 images) Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#22. To: robnoel (#14)

I cannot justify those comments, nor do I know their context.

What he is saying that killing whites is justified

I don't see that even in his most angry quotes.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   13:49:42 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#23. To: robin (#0)

Outstanding article and analysis - I'd have Brother Wright over for pops and dinner.

Lod  posted on  2008-04-28   13:50:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#24. To: Jethro Tull (#19)

Father Pfleger said he noticed that many black Catholics would attend Mass, then go to black Protestant churches or listen on the radio for ''real church.'' He figured, ''Why can't we have church at church?''

He insists that the black and African elements he added to the liturgy transcend denominational lines. ''It's not Baptist to clap one's hands or have gospel music or speak in tongues and get filled with the holy spirit,'' he said. ''It's human and spiritual. No church owns that.''

There are Vietnamese and Latino masses in the Orange county diocese, no one seems to get upset about them.

It sounds like Father Pfleger is reaching out to the Black community.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   13:52:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#25. To: lodwick (#23)

I would join you, as would Michael Collins Piper of American Free Press; but not everyone would.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   13:52:59 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#26. To: robin (#22)

"power of blacks to destroy their oppressors".....who are the oppressors?

robnoel  posted on  2008-04-28   13:55:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#27. To: robnoel (#26)

That is over the top, you are correct, and I see nothing Christian about it. I'm sure Obama would condemn it as he has the more outrageous statements by Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   13:59:28 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#28. To: Jethro Tull (#21)

Great info JT.

The gun grabbers here might join up.

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-28   14:00:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#29. To: robnoel (#26)

"power of blacks to destroy their oppressors".....who are the oppressors?

According to Wright, whites.

With Wrights views on Jewish people, I wonder if the ADL has anything to say? If not, why not?

Peppa  posted on  2008-04-28   14:01:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#30. To: robnoel. the thread (#26)

"power of blacks to destroy their oppressors".....who are the oppressors?

World-wide today there seems to be much more black on black oppression going on.

Lod  posted on  2008-04-28   14:03:06 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#31. To: Peppa (#28)

Yes, the GGGs (guilty gun grabbers) would embrace him and his parish.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   14:04:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#32. To: robin (#24)

It sounds like Father Pfleger is reaching out to the Black community.

He's reaching out for our guns (see my link above)

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   14:10:32 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#33. To: robin (#27)

That is over the top, you are correct, and I see nothing Christian about it. I'm sure Obama would condemn it as he has the more outrageous statements by Rev. Jeremiah Wright.

No. 20 years says he approves of it. 20 years Robin. Obama is finished. It's high time for you to wake up from your delusional thoughts about Obama.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-04-28   14:11:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#34. To: Jethro Tull (#32)

Well that's a different issue entirely. He is probably very pro-life and against the death penalty as well.

The point is he says he knows the Rev. Wright personally and is defending him against the smears by Fox News.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   14:14:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#35. To: robin (#34)

The point is he says he knows the Rev. Wright personally and is defending him against the smears by Fox News.

Smears? They merely showed a tape of Wright's sermon, hardly a smear.

God is always good!

RickyJ  posted on  2008-04-28   14:15:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#36. To: robin (#34)

Well that's a different issue entirely.

No it isn't. This is all about radicalism. You interjected the good Father into the debate and I'm simply showing people what he believes in.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   14:19:51 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#37. To: Jethro Tull (#36)

You had no trouble believing McCain's adviser Kagan and his misconstruction of Obama's foreign policy ideas yesterday. Does that mean you agree with everything Kagan believes?

Father Pfleger says he knows the Rev. Wright and he defended him handily against Fox News.

That Father Pfleger also is for gun control is interesting but does not alter the fact that he answered the charges against Rev. Wright by Fox News extremely well.

“President Bush has talked about our staying in Iraq for 50 years,” “Maybe a hundred ... ... that’d be fine with me,” McCain responds
Hillary: "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran in the next 10 years, during which they might foolishly consider launching an attack on Israel, we would be able to totally obliterate them."

robin  posted on  2008-04-28   14:29:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#38. To: robin (#37)

That Father Pfleger also is for gun control is interesting but does not alter the fact that he answered the charges against Rev. Wright

robin, when you come to know a person is a gun grabber, please dismiss anything else they have to say.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   14:37:23 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#39. To: Jethro Tull (#19)

Vanilla Ice Poop Sicles BTTT!

McCarthy was 100% On Target !!


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   14:40:10 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#40. To: Jethro Tull (#21)

And that POS hides behind his make believe version of God...talk about an enemy amongst us.


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   14:41:40 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#41. To: robin (#22)

I don't see that even in his most angry quotes.

Based on what you selectively choose to see and not see, that's not saying much robin...


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   14:42:34 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#42. To: robin (#34)

Oh brother, you're an entire case study all to yourself robin...


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   14:44:37 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#43. To: Jethro Tull (#38)

robin, when you come to know a person is a gun grabber, please dismiss anything else they have to say.

So, given a choice between a candidate who supports gun rights but who also favors launching aggressive wars, and a candidate who opposes wars but who supports regulation of gun rights, you would favor the warmonger?

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-28   15:34:17 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#44. To: aristeides (#43)

Presidents have as much control over foreign policy as the man in the moon (see Foggy Bottom for our foreign policy decisions). OTOH, they can tinker with domestic policy. That is a given, your question is for political amateurs.

PS: Wright is killing Obama. Why can't he get him under control?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   15:40:57 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#45. To: Jethro Tull (#44) (Edited)

Sounds like your answer to my question is "Yes."

I guess that gives us an idea which candidate you will end up supporting.

I cannot control the conduct of Obama, Wright, or any other public figure. What I can control is my own conduct. And for me, that means giving supreme weight to the pressing moral issue of our time, which is stopping the wars of aggression that this country conducts and the hundreds of thousands of deaths that those wars are causing.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-28   15:48:48 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#46. To: aristeides (#43)

So, given a choice between a candidate who supports gun rights but who also favors launching aggressive wars, and a candidate who opposes wars but who supports regulation of gun rights, you would favor the warmonger?

Neil? Is that YOU?!

You're a Commie gun grabber deep down inside and you just can't hold back.

The intellectual dishonesty that you and your cohorts on 4um have displayed is finally out for all to see...

You're a Commie Establishment bootlicker through and through.


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   15:52:52 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#47. To: aristeides (#45) (Edited)

I guess that gives us an idea which candidate you will end up supporting.

F*_cking pathetic.

If you don't support the gun grabbing lying elitist racist Marxist One Worlder and his boy Zbig the creator of alCIAduh, then you're supporting Juan McTraitor.

Give it up already you miserable Commie shill...back to the DUmpster with you!


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   15:54:20 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#48. To: aristeides (#43)

So, given a choice between a candidate who supports gun rights but who also favors launching aggressive wars, and a candidate who opposes wars but who supports regulation of gun rights, you would favor the warmonger?

As with creationism, school prayer and abortion, gun control is a great wedge issue that the pols use to divide and control the public. We lost our right to personal privacy, habeas corpus and accepted torture without any public outrage. Believe me, when the PTB decides that it is in their interest to disarm the American public, it will be done. No doubt, the real threat of armed rebellion would get them to move. For the time being, it's nothing but fear mongering playing on the fears of the weak minded.

Arete  posted on  2008-04-28   16:08:13 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#49. To: aristeides, Elliot Jackalope, Diebold, all (#45)

I guess that gives us an idea which candidate you will end up supporting.

I don't vote so your comment is silly

You, and the tiny remnant of people in this nation who still care about Iraq, have no power or control over our war making. The power to wage war flows down to politicians from people more powerful and wealthy than we can imagine. And get this; they would never, ever allow an election result to get in the way of their trillion dollar a year empire.

Given your naivete, how ever did you make it out of the Bronx?

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   16:12:00 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#50. To: Jethro Tull (#49)

You, and the tiny remnant of people in this nation who still care about Iraq, have no power or control over our war making.

You make it sound as if you're one of those who don't care about Iraq.

If you can really find such war crimes tolerable, it tells us a lot about your character, or lack of it.

To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.

aristeides  posted on  2008-04-28   16:26:19 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#51. To: aristeides (#50)

What can I do about Iraq?

Hell, if any of these politicians had a brain they'd be alerting the sheeple about the Gulf of Tonkin-like incidents that are happening w/Iran almost daily.

> This selection will be about the economy.

The 60s are dead and so is the peace movement.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   16:33:01 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#52. To: Jethro Tull (#49)

The power to wage war flows down to politicians from people more powerful and wealthy than we can imagine. And get this; they would never, ever allow an election result to get in the way of their trillion dollar a year empire.

You are right on target there. LBJ just gave up rather than turn against our real masters behind the curtain.

Arete  posted on  2008-04-28   16:36:31 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#53. To: Jethro Tull (#51)

The 60s are dead and so is the peace movement.

A draft makes all the difference. Something that wasn't lost on the PTB and the war profiteers.

Arete  posted on  2008-04-28   16:39:05 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#54. To: Arete (#52)

That's right about LBJ. All he had to do was look back a few years to JFK get clued in.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   16:39:14 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#55. To: Arete (#53)

A draft makes all the difference.

Yep, a draft would create an instant youth peace movement, complete w/massive riots. That simply doesn't exist while kids join on a voluntary basis.

Jethro Tull  posted on  2008-04-28   16:41:16 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#56. To: Jethro Tull (#54)

All he had to do was look back a few years to JFK get clued in.

Old LBJ knew exactly how and why he became President. He had no way out except not to run again.

Arete  posted on  2008-04-28   16:49:41 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#57. To: aristeides (#50)

If you can really find such war crimes tolerable, it tells us a lot about your character, or lack of it.

Why don't you go whack a few decision makers and prove to all of us your commitment?


FOH  posted on  2008-04-28   17:18:58 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


#58. To: lodwick (#30)

World-wide today there seems to be much more black on black oppression going on.

Try living in Africa as a white guy

robnoel  posted on  2008-04-28   17:29:55 ET  Reply   Trace   Private Reply  


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