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All is Vanity
See other All is Vanity Articles

Title: Attention 4um Members
Source: [None]
URL Source: http://none
Published: May 4, 2008
Author: me
Post Date: 2008-05-04 22:40:24 by christine
Keywords: None
Views: 18881
Comments: 655

I have to be honest, I'm completely distressed at what's happened to this forum. The fighting and the distrust between those for and those against Obama has gotten to the point where, in my opinion, it's destroying the forum. What's the point of having an open free speech venue when everyone is bozo'ing everyone else?

When I read my mission statement and what Freedom4um was created to be, I don't even recognize the place anymore. There will be changes made in the near future as I decide what is best for the continued growth of this forum.

Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread  

Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 486.

#208. To: christine, all (#0)

I don't even recognize the place anymore.

You have disruptors here.

The bozo use is a symptom of the problem, not the problem itself. It allows freedom of association. I use the filter to make the latest comment pages useable for me. Like for example, in the morning, Kamala posts lots and lots of informative threads. They aren't breaking news or necessarily news I want to read right then, so I filter them out. I ban from my view the proven stupid and spammers and disruptors and those who get their panties in a knot over Obama. I even banned cynicom once or twice because he made me want to pull my hair out.

Mudboy Slim and VRWC are the same disruptors here that they were in the other forums. FOH is a disruptor as well. And there are operatives. They're more difficult to weed out. People can filter them or not.

People should know that Private Mails are not secure. It sure was distressing to see Neil (Webmaster) jump in on that one thread accusing people who weren't supporting Obama to be akin to murderers. And he was uncharacteristically rude. Who knows if it's Neil or not or where he's really coming from?

So yeah, you have problems here. Banning the obvious trolls is entirely appropriate. What seems to be happening is a hijacking of the forum by Obamaphiles and operatives using the filter to limit their discussion group. But what harm does that do unless there's lots of 'em? No real harm...I mean how many times can you post rah-rah Obama?

If the others like Jethro Tull and peppa would use some restraint from baiting them and keeping those threads alive, some of the crap would die down. People here are intelligent enough to see who's who and what their agenda is.

I suggest to do nothing but the bare minimum. The trolls are showing themselves and those paying attention can adjust accordingly.

angle  posted on  2008-05-05   8:32:31 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

People should know that Private Mails are not secure. It sure was distressing to see Neil (Webmaster) jump in on that one thread accusing people who weren't supporting Obama to be akin to murderers. And he was uncharacteristically rude. Who knows if it's Neil or not or where he's really coming from?

Neil, this is the first I have heard of this (and of course I haven't read every thread that has been posted here). Is it true that you accused people who don't support Obama--which most certainly includes me but then I don't support ANY statist whore as anyone who knows me already knows--to be akin to murderers? I find that pretty hard to believe and if you said that I would like to hear your explanation. As I said in the only other post I have made to this thread I consider you a friend and that is why I find it hard to believe that you would even think such a thing, let alone post it.

My own personal disclaimer: I see some people here who don't seem to like each other for one reason or another and it is distressing to me because I like all of them. For instance, I like Peppa, FOH and Neil. I think they are all good people. But because I like all of them doesn't mean they all have to like each other. I won't be like Rodney King and ask if we can't all just get along because I know that, human nature being what it is, that we probably all can't "just get along." But all of you who don't like the others so much, or to put another way, if your dislike is so intense, the bozo filter is a good option. You don't have to see what someone has said if you don't like them and it may make your time here more enjoyable.

James Deffenbach  posted on  2008-05-05   10:32:42 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Neil, this is the first I have heard of this (and of course I haven't read every thread that has been posted here). Is it true that you accused people who don't support Obama--which most certainly includes me but then I don't support ANY statist whore as anyone who knows me already knows--to be akin to murderers?

That is not true.

Jethro Tull freely admitted and has never redacted nor denied, in spite of being given numerous opportunities to do so, that in a hypothetical scenario, he would shoot an innocent girl as a means to an end of furthering 2A rights. The girl dies for the "greater good" he said.

So, by his own admission, I characterize JT as willing to murder innocent people to further his own personal interests. Since it is true that he also opposes Obama, then in so far as JT is concerned the statement "accusing people who weren't supporting Obama to be akin to murderers" is certainly true, but it is certainly false to construe that as accusing *all* people who oppose Obama as being akin to murderers. That is false. Angle should know better than to make such a false insinuation.

As I said in the only other post I have made to this thread I consider you a friend and that is why I find it hard to believe that you would even think such a thing, let alone post it.

Thank you.

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-05-05   14:03:43 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

Jethro Tull freely admitted and has never redacted nor denied, in spite of being given numerous opportunities to do so, that in a hypothetical scenario, he would shoot an innocent girl as a means to an end of furthering 2A rights. The girl dies for the "greater good" he said.

So, by his own admission, I characterize JT as willing to murder innocent people to further his own personal interests. Since it is true that he also opposes Obama, then in so far as JT is concerned the statement "accusing people who weren't supporting Obama to be akin to murderers" is certainly true, but it is certainly false to construe that as accusing *all* people who oppose Obama as being akin to murderers. That is false. Angle should know better than to make such a false insinuation.

Neil, I'm sure you recall the story of William Tell.

After Tell was given no choice but to split the apple on his son's head, the legend has it that Hermann Gessler asked why Tell had drawn two bolts before firing at the apple.

You could have just as easily framed your question in such a way as to make JT appear noble, instead of attempting to corner him into a response that we'd expect from a murdering psycho.

As a dedicated 2nd amendment activist I understand JT's and christine's passionate views on the issue very well, and that is why I came here. (And my reasons for being quiet lately have nothing to do with the 2nd amendment)

If JT was forced to take an innocent life to save millions of others from more of "your tyranny", then trust me, he'd draw two "bolts", and the second (and possibly the first if it couldn't be fired to free the child and offer a chance of escape) would be for you.

And, you or any other tyrant would never again have occasion to ask why we place such a high value on our right to keep and bear arms, or question our love for innocent children.

We keep arms and suffer the abuse of those who will not take responsibility for their own freedom or the protection of their own children because tyrants could and likely would make us kill our loved ones if we lacked the means to prevent that. The difference between us and the Chinese though, is we can stop would be tyrants from ever issuing such edicts here, or make the price so high that it is as unthinkable to them as murdering an innocent child is to you, JT and me.

If you mean to underscore that JT is more passionate in his rhetoric than most, then I'll agree with you. But, if you framed the question properly to illuminate the truth rather than paint an ugly and inaccurate picture of me, then I'd give you the same answer as JT.

But, I wouldn't allow you to make my life's work as an activist appear to be the selfish quirk of a homicidal sociopath with a fondness for weapons and a callous disregard for the lives of our precious children.

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-05-06   2:47:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

We've apparently moved on from this particular hypothetical. My point in what you responded to is that JT consistently failed to give an accounting of himself beyond what he stated at face value. You'll further note that what you responded to was in answer to a request to respond to a mischaracterization that was placed upon me, so of course I stand by my post all the more.

There are a variety of answers to just about any hypothetical scenario that can carry moral weight, and they don't have to agree. In this particular case, it appears JT's equates a loss of the 2A with a death sentence. I can appreciate that point even though do not agree with the premise as I know of no other country that has a 2A and people there are basically okay and often doing even better. Ecuador has no 2A and I'm doing just fine!

But since JT and others have such contempt for my illustration, if you continue reading this thread you'll see that I've presented one much more realistic -- a presidential candidate who would fully restore the 2A while starting a war with Iran. Please tell me if you think a question of whether to vote for him or not is also something that is unfair and impossible to answer soundly. JT apparently feels it is.

JT, though he accuses others of evading debate via bozo, himself has refused to defend himself and justify his accusation of me for a statement I made in the past relating to this very subject. That is, in fact, the whole root of this hypothetical matter.

And, you or any other tyrant would never again have occasion to ask

I'm sorry but I must ask: Did you mean to characterize me as a tyrant?

Pinguinite  posted on  2008-05-06   3:22:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

#487. To: Pinguinite (#486)

I'm sorry but I must ask: Did you mean to characterize me as a tyrant?

Badeye used to imply as much, but that was before he gave himself a hummer.

FormerLurker  posted on  2008-05-06 03:27:23 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

We've apparently moved on from this particular hypothetical. My point in what you responded to is that JT consistently failed to give an accounting of himself beyond what he stated at face value. You'll further note that what you responded to was in answer to a request to respond to a mischaracterization that was placed upon me, so of course I stand by my post all the more.

There are a variety of answers to just about any hypothetical scenario that can carry moral weight, and they don't have to agree. In this particular case, it appears JT's equates a loss of the 2A with a death sentence. I can appreciate that point even though do not agree with the premise as I know of no other country that has a 2A and people there are basically okay and often doing even better. Ecuador has no 2A and I'm doing just fine!

But since JT and others have such contempt for my illustration, if you continue reading this thread you'll see that I've presented one much more realistic -- a presidential candidate who would fully restore the 2A while starting a war with Iran. Please tell me if you think a question of whether to vote for him or not is also something that is unfair and impossible to answer soundly. JT apparently feels it is.

JT, though he accuses others of evading debate via bozo, himself has refused to defend himself and justify his accusation of me for a statement I made in the past relating to this very subject. That is, in fact, the whole root of this hypothetical matter.

And, you or any other tyrant would never again have occasion to ask

I'm sorry but I must ask: Did you mean to characterize me as a tyrant?

Let me answer the last one first; of course not. I should have put "you" in quotation marks to make it clear that you were only the hypothetical tyrant and I was intentionally moving you out of your comfort zone while turning the virtual tables for reasons that require no explanation. It was easy for me to do it to you and it could easily cause hard feelings had we not cleared it up immediately. Right?

In all of this mis-characterization I think it's worth mentioning that JT served and retired honorably from a career as a NYPD street cop. I'm betting that he went out for that because his desire to protect people was stronger than the urge to shoot some darkies. In fact AFAIK he never did that while on the job, but I'd bet that he did help many people and jail some pretty malo hombres in his time on the job.

If I went the distance and retired from NYPD I'd probably resent anyone asking if or implying that I'm a mentally disordered crim, too, Neil. He may display a certain confidence when drawing the line in the sand (and failing to deny the charges) but that's probably because the feds can't afford to piss off the City cops who are the true first line of defense against all the federal agencies in La Manzana Grande. And, the last thing the feds would do is use an honorably retired NYPD officer as the target/victim in one of the feds' famous media show trials, and JT is used to getting the benefit of the doubt from everyone. So, let's assume that he's a stable, healthy, well adjusted law abiding citizen with a high regard for human life and dignity and respect for the rights of all who reciprocate.

Unless he robs a bank (or worse, parks in the US Attorney's or some ART 3 judge's spot) they ain't gonna hassle him when he pokes a finger in the feds' elliptical eye. So, he is privileged to a certain degree to speak frankly and to say things that I wouldn't say, because the media could more readily vilify me than him for the purpose of a criminal trial. (How old were you when DAWG first felt you up?" "I was twelve, and I wasn't the first, either! He goosed my sister years before!")

You may have also noticed that each time we tried to be unrealistically optimistic about Ron Paul's chances he'd drop a big brown floater in our WHEATIES, too. He just can't deceive himself for even a moment's worth of feeling good, and he won't let me or others get away with it, either.

However irritating that may have been, he was right every time. And, if he sees Barry Obama as another hand picked functionary of the slave masters or perhaps even worse because the puppet masters now feel it payback time and whites are going to be put down and held down until the last American lowers the flag and turns off the Coleman lanterns, then chances are he's right about that, too.

Is the truth any less true simply because we cannot deal with it?

I'll certainly concede (but not for JT-not my place to do that) that I believe that JT has mis-characterized others including you, and I can say this because I've also done this. This is one of the reasons I don't play here now. The acrimony and "win at any cost no matter what I gotta say about your Mama" tone of debate at 4 is just too ruff for me now. (If others enjoy it or are simply younger and healthier and don't take things as personally as I then the problem is my incompatibility, and I made the logical choice to stop crossing swords with objectionable members and to leave the site to those who still enjoy it and benefit from the talk wrestling)

Remember that America now enjoys the distinction of being the only English speaking country (but one of several Spanish speaking countries) where the WWF is regarded as a legit sports franchise/corporation.

It's not my way to cross swords with vicious assholes, and given a choice between civil debate and LF/TOS-style blood matches I'd opt for the former every time.

And, so would you and JT. I know this because when things got testy between me and him or you and I, neither of you savaged me because there was and is a measure of mutual respect between us. And, how do I know this?

The same way a sleeping DAWG knows if he's been tripped over or if he's been kicked.

And there's really nothing mysterious about the vicious rancor here or elsewhere on the net. it's a natural follow through for too many immature and/or "dull normals" once they're wounded, and they quickly lose respect for their perceived detractors. And, in the absence of hall monitors they often regress....

But, it can be repaired with apologies and resolutions if that matters to you and JT. Both of you are respected here and both of you smart when someone tries to wound you, even if they aren't all that gifted and miss their mark. It's the very thought that someone, ANYONE would even try that hurts JT, you, chris and me. This is the down side to being intelligent, perceptive people.

JT goes the extra distance to maintain his patriot bone fides, probably because he was a cop in the agency that's THE RAND CORP's favorite cop corps. Wouldn't that explain a lot of his seemingly quick and pointed responses?

The fact is, he's done a yeoman's job of earning folk's respect as a patriot and as a defender of the innocent against those who would harm us and them. No one seriously accuses him of being a govt plant and he's unaccustomed to being accused of having psycho tendencies, too. Cops who are "out of plumb" seldom go the distance. The stress level provides too many opportunities to lose it. On that point he deserves the benefit of any doubt no matter how he replied (or failed to respond) to the blunt interrogatory you employed. (No need to remind me that this wasn't the first insult, and you feel that it was a response not a first strike. I'm aware of this, too)

Now, let's talk about you, shall we?

In my view you're a great human being with a deep compassion and sensitivity for others, and that speaks very well of you. And, if you believe in the Creator and the Bible, well, I'd say that your name is probably on the goodie list.

Your optimism and ability to look for the good in people (no one is all good or all bad, except the Clintons and the Bushes of course) seems to serve you well, and I accept and admire that.

I crossed swords with you a few times and once I "got where you're coming from" I realized that we won't agree on some things, and I don't insult your intelligence by trying to "convert you". And I try to avoid mis-characterizing you for two reasons: First, you're a real asset to this website as a software engineer and troubleshooter; And, I'm far more certain of what is kind than I am of what is true.

It would be really great if 4um could exemplify civil debate by persons who span the spectrum. And, since you and JT pretty well meet that definition (at least the spectrum at 4) and you both are very fond of christine, I'd like to see you two rise to the occasion and look for the positive attributes in each other for her sake, and for the betterment and furtherance of the mission of this website.

And, there will never be a time when America and the world will need good men to find their common ground and stand together more.

Remember, if a recognizable percentage of Americans, ex-pats and foreign victims of American imperialism ever get on the same harmonic frequency, we can turn the tide and send the lizards and their private security forces scurrying for their island fortress retreats. (Some disagree with that. Despite the absence of any historical precedent either way, some are sure that I'm wrong and they're right. And, if I challenge them they whip out their love muscles for a size comparison to "settle it like real men". This is my incompatibility problem since others don't seem to mind, so, it's their world and I'm not visiting for the moment)

And if we fail to recognize that chaos is part of the master plan and ass bite each other, then 4um will become another political themed mosh pit by default.

Everyone is depressed because the world is melting down in front of our very eyes, and the resulting anxiety only benefits those who rely on the chaos.

Do you believe it's possible to be gentle with others as a first order of business here and then see if we can build on that?

Or, should I just go and play with my dolls and let my nanny put in my Pollyanna curls so, I'll look real purty when the nuclear blast vaporizes me at the speed of light?

HOUNDDAWG  posted on  2008-05-06 08:27:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply  

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