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Neocon Nuttery See other Neocon Nuttery Articles Title: 'This is just plain wrong' (U.S. Congress + Nelson Mandela TODAY) Source: Independent Online (South Africa) URL Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=nw20080508194409871C255207 Published: May 8, 2008 Author: JESSE J. HOLLAND Post Date: 2008-05-09 02:21:04 by X-15 Keywords: None Views: 1217 Comments: 52 Washington - The US house of representatives voted on Thursday to remove apartheid-era travel restrictions and terrorist designations from Nelson Mandela and other African National Congress (ANC) members for fighting against their country's white minority rule. "Despite recognising two decades ago that America's place was on the side of those oppressed by apartheid, Congress has never resolved the inconsistency in our immigration code that treats many of those who actively opposed apartheid in South Africa as terrorists and criminals," said Howard Berman, a Democrat and chairperson of the house foreign affairs committee. The house approved by voice vote legislation to give the state department and homeland security wide latitude to disregard the ANC's anti-apartheid activities when determining whether to allow members and former members into the United States. The bill also adds the ANC to a list of groups that should not be considered terrorist organisations. "Despite his legacy as a hero of the anti-apartheid movement, despite the fact that he is a Nobel Peace Prize recipient...despite his election as president, we still require Nelson Mandela to apply for a visa waiver to enter into the United States just for a visit. This is just plain wrong," said Barbara Lee, a democrat. The ANC is the ruling party in the democratic, post-apartheid South Africa, but was considered a terrorist organisation by the apartheid white minority government. "The ANC is not a terrorist organisation now," said Lamar Smith, a Republican. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice asked Congress last month to pass the legislation. She called it "embarrassing" that she still has to waive travel restrictions when Mandela and other ANC leaders visit the United States. Other ANC members have been refused entry into the United States. For example, Barbara Masekela, the former South African ambassador to the United States, was denied a visa to visit a dying cousin in the United States in 2007, lawmakers said. A similar bill is moving through the Senate. - Sapa-AP Poster's comment: notice the Republican BS I bold-typed above. Expect the three stooges in the Senate to fight over who loves Nelson Mandela more. Post Comment   Private Reply   Ignore Thread   Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest Begin Trace Mode for Comment # 51. #2. To: X-15 (#0) -- Nelson Mandela A great man, one of my heroes. It is outrageous to have him on a terrorist watch list. During the struggle to boot the Bloody Nats out, I belonged to Eugene Free South Africa. Seeing the ANC come to power was a dream come true. Long live the ANC. Amandla Awetu! Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   3:09:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #3. To: Ferret Mike (#2) Long live the ANC. So how's that working out down there in South Africa? How far has life expectancy has gone up? mirage  posted on  2008-05-09   3:19:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #4. To: mirage (#3) How has the decades of oppression, leadership decapitation, disenfranchisement from land, jobs and even citizenship helped to make South Africa better? The ANC inherited a world class mess from the terroristic South African Government that had practiced the fascist policy of Apartheid. I have studied South Africa and plan on going there someday to see that country for myself. Current problems have their genesis in the oppression of the Apartheid era and it was well known recovery from that era would be multi generational. I know who is at fault for the current and past problems in South Africa, and most of them were Afrikaners. I support the ANC and the current government of South Africa, and I am glad to see the Nationalist Party's rule to finally be in the dustbin of history. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   3:29:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #5. To: Ferret Mike (#4) I know who is at fault for the current and past problems in South Africa, and most of them were Afrikaners. South Africa is now the rape capital of the world. They also don't have electricity in many parts of the country anymore. The roads are falling to crap and the unemployment rate is going up. The transition was - what - nearly 20 years ago when it started? The Afrikaners are not responsible for ALL of that and you know it. So, things got worse and you're happy. Got it. I don't understand why people advocate for policies that make things worse and are happy as a result. One would think that increased crime, death, and misery would be results that scream "TOTAL FAILURE" but the difference between me and a stock leftist is that I'm data driven and they're driven by emotions. Those two methods of looking at a situation don't reinforce each other. I'm going to start using a new tagline: Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse. mirage  posted on  2008-05-09   4:01:20 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #6. To: mirage (#5) On the contrary, things are better then they were in Apartheid South Africa, a whole lot better. People are not deprived basic citizenship and shipped to remote and desolate parts of the country. People are not banned, unable to discuss and work in political advocacy and endeavors only being allowed to meet one person at a time. Black leaders are no longer routinely tortured and murdered in order to keep the Black and Colored (South African racial categories of that time) disorganized and oppressed. What is being reaped now is a crop of problems sowed decades ago by the oppressive, fascist and racist Apartheid government of the Nationalist Party. Things will improve there, and the country has it's collective soul back and finally has hope for a decent future. You may disagree, but you obviously have no understanding of the scope and depth of oppression under Apartheid and what it had done to that country. Israel hates the ANC too by the way, as they had a real cozy relationship militarily with the Apartheid Government and they found them to be quite like minded. If you do not like Zionists, I find it incredulous you can support and defend their closest partners militarily on the African Continent. You really need to do allot more Googling and reading on the topic of South Africa and other history and area studies of the surrounding countries to in in the South of Africa. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   4:17:08 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #7. To: Ferret Mike (#6) (Edited) There is very little that I support on the African Continent, mostly because the residents, power-brokers, and thugs there are busy turning it into one of the larger hell-holes on the planet. The question, as always, is one of results. Are things on the whole better now than they were then? On the whole, no, they are not. So, we turn to history and see what voices were there speaking and we find Ian Smith whose basic comment was that the electorate needed to be educated before control was handed over to them. In a lot of ways, Smith was proven correct, especially in his comments about Mugabe. He deserves a second look, especially with the catastrophic failure that is Zimbabwe. Then again, the folks screaming up and down about Rhodesia deserve a full measure of responsibility for the hellhole there they helped create by forcing a transition before the country was ready for it. They helped put in a dictator who is busy making things worse. Where are these "for freedom!" people now? Under rocks, I would imagine, and afraid to admit they might have made an error. Likewise, the folks who pushed for rapid change in South Africa (like your group) deserve a full measure of responsibility for what it has turned into and owe the South African people an apology as well as some assistance to help dig them out of the pit they are getting into. Will that ever come? Not a chance. Will there ever be an admission that perhaps they made an error? Not a chance. People with causes don't take responsibility for their actions, particularly when things go badly. And so, South Africa is all alone again, but with a bunch of smug Americans convinced they've done right. When lining things up, the "terrorism" against the "terrorists" in SA pales against the number of rape cases. Before the switchover, rape was practically nonexistent in South Africa. Today, there are tens of thousands per year and there are now lots of child rapes, mostly due to the misbelief that "sex with a virgin cures AIDS" Sounds like terrorism. How many ANC people were beaten versus how many rapes? Do you really want to go there? The change needed to come a lot slower so there was time to ramp the society up to be able to handle it. Doing it in the manner it was done took SA from a first world country to a second world country. If they aren't careful, they'll turn it into a third-world country. On the whole, if a change causes a wholesale downsizing of living standards, it is a FAILURE. Instead, what went on in South Africa was a slow-motion crash and burn rather than a slow-motion ramping up. Will anyone learn from this? Of course not. People with "causes" don't care about what happens after they win. They wash their hands of it and move on to the next cause. I do process analysis all the time; they needed to do some before going whole-hog into this. A little forethought and a little incrementalism, then some monitoring, then another change, and doing it that way over time would have made the transition work a lot better and the downsides to it could have been mitigated. But when has any "for a cause!" organization ever done that? Certainly not here in the USA, so there is no expectation of that anywhere. Heck, in the USA you can't even get one of the "for a cause!" groups pushing for change to take responsibility for a failure, which is a primary reason why I put them under a microscope. People or groups who are pathologically incapable of admitting they made an error or taking responsibility for their actions are not deserving of support. That includes the current US Administration in case you're curious. It seems that in recent history, whenever Americans "with a cause" desire regime change, it creates a hellhole. Zimbabwe, Iran, Iraq, and Rhodesia are the most recent examples of this. Worked out really well all-around, hasn't it? mirage  posted on  2008-05-09   4:54:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #8. To: mirage (#7) Bull. The Apartheid government made sure the people on the whole were decapitated from their leaders, were made to study in a language not their own with inadequate funding and basic infrastructure for schools, and the slots and funding for education were just not there quite deliberately. As for Ian Smith, this man was a fascist and liar and had no desire or intent to cater to anyone in his country except for the White elite, and he was not of South Africa which makes me wonder how you can be so confused as to feel he is germaine to a discussion of South Africa. True, The Nationalists of South Africa just worked for the Afrikaner elite much as Smith's government did in his country. But we are not talking about Smith's country here. There was nothing good about good old fascist, racist South Africa. Those were the bad old days. The problems stemming from ignorance and violence emanate from the effects of Apartheid policy, and as time passes and the situation evolves giving more opportunities and more people became better educated then they ever would of been in racist South Africa, the problems of post Apartheid South Africa will dissipate. I go will go there and do a great deal of travel by bicycle. I have full confidence I will enjoy the experiance, and I look forward to going. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   5:18:12 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #9. To: Ferret Mike (#8) Nothing good in either SA or Rhodesia before the switchover? In Harare now, they have signs saying "Bring back Ian Smith" because under him, at the very least, the people had jobs and food. Now they have neither. You seem to think this is an improvement. Like Iraq, American intervention in Rhodesia and South Africa has caused more problems than it has solved. People need to get it through their heads to stop trying to improve others' worlds. It leads only to heartache and disaster. Both SA and Rhodesia would have come to the same conclusion eventually regardless and eased in a transition that would have been better and not seen people suffer as a result. Unfortunately, smug Americans bent on improving the world caused both countries to become casualties of American arrogance. Iraq and Iran likewise have gone downhill. So, it hasn't worked out and the groups involved deserve a full measure of responsibility. Is yours going to take any or is it going to try and rationalize things as you've tried to do on this thread? Are you going to continue to advocate for intervention in others' affairs or are you going to learn from Iraq and leave well enough alone now? Just asking. No answer is needed. Just note that the results from all four interventions have been the same. The country went to hell. The "for the cause" people refuse in all four cases to take responsibility for their actions. Good luck in SA. Crime is rising so don't get mugged. Read the State Department warnings in detail. Gangs are on the rise there in SA as are random shootings. mirage  posted on  2008-05-09   5:28:02 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #10. To: mirage (#9) "Nothing good in either SA or Rhodesia before the switchover?" Smith would of been wiser to not try to hold onto power for the 12 years he did after breaking from Great Britain. The problems in Zimbabwe are not quite the same as South Africa, but yes, it is far better to see the Smith Government gone. I do not support Robert Mugabe or like him, but he came about as a result of the oppression and racism of allowing no political say or franchise to a population that outnumbered privileged whites twenty to one. You and I are not likely to suddenly agree on many things in regard to South Africa, so I am not going to repeat myself other then to say I have confidence their future is far brighter now that Apartheid is gone, and that their leadership is a far cry better then that of the thug Robert Mugabe. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   6:08:30 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #15. To: Ferret Mike (#10) You and I are not likely to suddenly agree on many things in regard to South Africa, so I am not going to repeat myself other then to say I have confidence their future is far brighter now that Apartheid is gone, and that their leadership is a far cry better then that of the thug Robert Mugabe. Well, that's your opinion. Smith was right about Mugabe and as such deserves a second look. That's just being honest about history and not trying to hide one's head in the sand. As for the future of South Africa, just look at the results so far. Dismal. Where you take joy in causing damage and turning a country into a problem, I see failure. The difference between how you and I view things is simple. I look at whether the people have food, roads, electricity, medicine, etc. You look at whether or not your cause won and ignore the aftereffects. Sending people into hell for a few generations is just fine for you. Here, it gets labeled as being a failure. In that, you and Bush do have something in common. Both of you have advocated regime change that has lowered peoples' standards of living, decreased life expectancy, destroyed basic services, killed off many, increased crime, and sent many to the unemployment and begging lines. You and President Bush see "victory" in demolishing peoples' lives and making them worse off. Be proud of that. You're in rare historical company now. mirage  posted on  2008-05-09   12:08:44 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #20. To: mirage (#15) Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group. While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide robnoel  posted on  2008-05-09   12:12:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #25. To: robnoel (#20) "Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group." Afrikaners were guilty of genocide torture and mass murder in South Africa, which is why worldwide pressure ended the rule of the Nationalist Party with it's sanctions against them that only countries like Israel worked around to continue their healthy military relationship with the Apartheid regime. I will never forget nor forgive the Apartheid regime of South Africa any more then I would forgive and forget what Nazi Germany did in WW II. South Africa is far better off without Apartheid then it ever was with this way of doing genocide and enslavement's boot on the nation's collective neck. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   13:43:21 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #34. To: Ferret Mike (#25) Never so much marxist crap in my life .....heres a question for you how many communist blacks died under apartheid? robnoel  posted on  2008-05-09   14:32:35 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #36. To: robnoel (#34) In Angola and Mozambique, the neighboring countries, in those countries alone, the South African depredations killed about million-and-a-half people and led to some $60 billion in damage during the period of constructive engagement with the u.s. support. It was a horror story. Noam Chomsky. I imagine almost all those 1.5 million were black. Of course, I have no idea how many of them were Communists. aristeides  posted on  2008-05-09   14:37:22 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #39. To: aristeides (#36) (Edited) Thats a bogus figure how do I know I spent many years in the SADF...in total less than 5000 blacks died in South African custody since the inception of apartheid in 1948 in the less than 10 years the ANC has surpassed that number ....why is it both of you quote commies to justify your positions.... robnoel  posted on  2008-05-09   14:57:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #40. To: robnoel (#39) Bull shit. You live in La-la land to pull that ridiculously low figure out of your pointy headed hat. The authorities were fond of spinning people they tortured, usually upside down, beating them viciously as they did this. They called it 'the helicopter.' South Africa was a land of internal bannings, denial of citizenship, cruel policies of employment that separated families most of the year, calculated murder of those who became leaders in political movement opposing the Apartheid regime, and all forms of torture, murder and mayhem by the government's security apparatus. Minor Atrocities of the Twentieth Century I believe this sources tallies is lower then actual figures, but it's conservative estimates of the death caused by Apartheid is still much higher then your cooked figures. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-09   15:12:13 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #41. To: Ferret Mike (#40) For someone who has never been there you have no credibility to argue with me your source of info are all pure communist propaganda South Africa Betrayed by communist liberal inflicted misery!! Way back in 1960, in a speech to MPs at the Houses of Parliament in Cape Town, the then British Prime minister Harold MacMillan spoke of the 'wind of change' blowing through the continent of Africa as more and more majority black populated countries left the white run colonies to determine their own fate. Little did he know or realize the tragic dimensions these 'winds of change' would bring to all of Africa. It used to be said that white apartheid run South Africa was twenty years behind the rest of the western world....what a load of horse manure! Perhaps, in terms of television, hard porn, drug abuse, multiculturalism, human rights for child molester's, rapists and murderers we were behind the rest, because we never tolerated the filth, decay and immorality liberalism has force vomited on western societies like Britain, America and the rest of the west. But when it came to anti-communism, South Africa was far ahead of the rest of the two faced west who were fighting the cold war against the communist at their front & back gate, whilst at the same time supporting and funding communist trained terrorists like the anc, zanu pf and other groups operating in Southern Africa indiscriminately murdering people and trying to destabilize the region. The only way the western backed commies could infiltrate and eventually take over S.A. was through an ace card......the easily led and manipulated black population along with a newfound allie.....a word called 'apartheid', and finally, it's own born & bred home grown traitor, De Klerk! Black South Africans were incited to burn down their schools, rebel against law & order, refuse to carry identity cards or as they were known....passbooks, kill, maim and in general try and destroy South Africa's infrastructure. They were even directed to maim and murder their own fellow blacks whenever they thought they were not towing the commie line. White liberals and communists like the Joe Slovo, the Oppenheimers, Helen Suzman, Ronnie Kasrils and many others were the brains and mainstay behind Mandela's communist horde, aided and abetted by the likes of the CIA and MI5, not to mention the fools in their millions abroad who were force fed anti-South African propaganda for decades. The Oppenheimer family, one of the leading so called elite families (along with others) in South Africa, working hand in hand with the Rothschild & Rockefeller families who control the mass media, banking oil, pharmaceutical and mineral and arms cartels, are at the head of the new world government soon to come. Yes, 'The New World Order' is upon us, right before our eyes, and many, if not most are swallowing it hook line & sinker! Africa is securely in the bag with it's black moron dictators firmly in place, thinking they are controlling and running things, whilst the populations of that continent are squirming, killing, raping, and declining into a cauldron of pure filth and immorality by the day, while the top dog's live it up. The downfall of apartheid had nothing to do with human rights for blacks, it had nothing to do with the so called oppressed blacks, it had and still has all to do with those really in charge in Europe and America controlling Africa. Perhaps at present the west are not showing too much interest in Africa, well that would be right, they are not! All they are interested in is the minerals and the inhabitants who can dig it up for them as cheaply as possible. I talk to hundreds of people who think that South Africa today is a land of hope & glory, milk & honey and that madiba is the next best thing to God! Some believe he is the greatest statesman that ever lived...so short lived are their memories or perhaps they only choose to follow and believe the controlled media's take on this terrorist and white hater. Here is a man who with the help on the leftist west and his fellow moron blacks, who has taken South Africa to it's present state of decay from a once first world country that makes current Britain look like a third world dump. Here is a man who would, given the chance, turn America and Britain over to Islam at the blink of an eye......his very pals who fought so hard to 'free his people'! By God, if was not so sad it would be a great joke! Here is a man who sold out black & white South Africans to poverty, destabilization, anarchy, and filth. Of all the blacks in Africa, blacks in apartheid run South Africa were better off than any other black in Africa.....education, health care, properly built homes with running water and electricity, public transport, they had it all, and many had it for free! What do they have today....virtually nothing, many live in squatter camps either on vacant areas of land or within towns and cities riddled with aids, typhoid and malaria. Once vibrant Cities like Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban And Port Elizabeth are nothing more than run down ghetto's today with few white inhabitants. Is this what America and Britain wanted for South Africa? Seems so! This is definitely what the fat cat's wanted and paid for! If it pains George Bush and his poodle Blair so much to see us suffer in Southern Africa, why do they not send a warship filled with troops to kick mugabe's ass into orbit and bring back stability in South Africa by turning the country over to people who want what is right for all South Africans. Naaa...they don't wanna give us that! Then we will again be a threat to what they ultimately want....full control! Besides, what real threat does mugabe, mandela, m'beki or really any black goon in Africa pose to the west...denada, nothing, zilch! They are way too busy trying to stamp on the real threat to them at present, Islam and the communist Chinese. You don't bother with nits when sharks are trying to bite you in two. Our boy Mandela is Americas greatest critic, whom he calls a threat to civilization. By gawd, a pekki from the sands of Transkei who has only just learned how to spell civilization making out he knows what it stands for after just recently taking South Africa back to the dark ages? If anyone is a threat to civilization, it's Islam, communism, he elite bloodlines of royalty and the super rich in power. We are now quickly heading for a one world fascist state run by the few. As for those liberal leftist morons who shoved South Africa over the edge from within, where are they now? All living abroad because it's way too dangerous and backward to live and educate their sprogs in South Africa. Talk about rats deserting a sinking ship! South Africans have been betrayed by duplicity. When confronted by the monster they helped to create, they have turned tail and run. These are the South Africans who have inflicted the misery on the country and their own countrymen. They are the staunch supporters of of the communist infiltration of South Africa. They funded it, they fought for it, and they got it.....where are they? The ultimate irony is that the liberals of the west believe they can save Africa without seeing that this is the destruction that they have ultimately caused.......but can they save themselves from the same encroaching destruction? Time will tell! robnoel  posted on  2008-05-09   15:21:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #46. To: robnoel (#41) Citation please bru, I would like a link to read more or to do some reseach on this piece, thanks. I will read anything I find on South Africa, and though you and I will likely never see eye to eye on many tnings, I would find it lekker good to hear your POV. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-10   1:59:41 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #49. To: Ferret Mike (#46) Have you been to the bay area lately? The crime is getting bad. I think the pacifists will come to a rude reality about the urban minority gang situation. angle  posted on  2008-05-10   9:35:59 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   #51. To: angle (#49) "Have you been to the bay area lately? The crime is getting bad. I think the pacifists will come to a rude reality about the urban minority gang situation." I have rarely been in California except for the North Coast area. I grew up on the East Coast in Connecticut before moving to Oregon. I have little or no use for that state below Oregon. I think the early 80s was the last time I saw the Bay area. Ferret Mike  posted on  2008-05-10   9:44:04 ET  Reply   Untrace   Trace   Private Reply   Replies to Comment # 51.         There are no replies to Comment # 51. End Trace Mode for Comment # 51. Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

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