4um: 'This is just plain wrong' (U.S. Congress + Nelson Mandela TODAY)

Status: Not Logged In; Sign In
Neocon Nuttery
See other Neocon Nuttery Articles
Title: 'This is just plain wrong' (U.S. Congress + Nelson Mandela TODAY)
Source: Independent Online (South Africa)
URL Source: http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?art_id=nw20080508194409871C255207
Published: May 8, 2008
Author: JESSE J. HOLLAND
Post Date: 2008-05-09 02:21:04 by X-15
Keywords: None
Views: 983
Comments: 52

Washington - The US house of representatives voted on Thursday to remove apartheid-era travel restrictions and terrorist designations from Nelson Mandela and other African National Congress (ANC) members for fighting against their country's white minority rule.
"Despite recognising two decades ago that America's place was on the side of those oppressed by apartheid, Congress has never resolved the inconsistency in our immigration code that treats many of those who actively opposed apartheid in South Africa as terrorists and criminals," said Howard Berman, a Democrat and chairperson of the house foreign affairs committee.
The house approved by voice vote legislation to give the state department and homeland security wide latitude to disregard the ANC's anti-apartheid activities when determining whether to allow members and former members into the United States. The bill also adds the ANC to a list of groups that should not be considered terrorist organisations.
"Despite his legacy as a hero of the anti-apartheid movement, despite the fact that he is a Nobel Peace Prize recipient...despite his election as president, we still require Nelson Mandela to apply for a visa waiver to enter into the United States just for a visit. This is just plain wrong," said Barbara Lee, a democrat.
The ANC is the ruling party in the democratic, post-apartheid South Africa, but was considered a terrorist organisation by the apartheid white minority government.
"The ANC is not a terrorist organisation now," said Lamar Smith, a Republican.
Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice asked Congress last month to pass the legislation.
She called it "embarrassing" that she still has to waive travel restrictions when Mandela and other ANC leaders visit the United States.
Other ANC members have been refused entry into the United States. For example, Barbara Masekela, the former South African ambassador to the United States, was denied a visa to visit a dying cousin in the United States in 2007, lawmakers said.
A similar bill is moving through the Senate. - Sapa-AP
Poster's comment: notice the Republican BS I bold-typed above. Expect the three stooges in the Senate to fight over who loves Nelson Mandela more.
Post Comment Private Reply Ignore Thread
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest
#1. To: X-15 (#0)
The U.S. Govt. has a lot in common with these murdering terrorists scum.
"The way to crush the bourgeoisie is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation".
Vladimir Lenin
noone222 posted on 2008-05-09 3:01:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#2. To: X-15 (#0)
--
Nelson Mandela

A great man, one of my heroes. It is outrageous to have him on a terrorist watch list.
During the struggle to boot the Bloody Nats out, I belonged to Eugene Free South Africa. Seeing the ANC come to power was a dream come true. Long live the ANC.
Amandla Awetu!

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 3:09:41 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#3. To: Ferret Mike (#2)
Long live the ANC.

So how's that working out down there in South Africa?
How far has life expectancy has gone up?
Elect anyone but Obama, Clinton, or McCain.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 3:19:30 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#4. To: mirage (#3)
How has the decades of oppression, leadership decapitation, disenfranchisement from land, jobs and even citizenship helped to make South Africa better?
The ANC inherited a world class mess from the terroristic South African Government that had practiced the fascist policy of Apartheid. I have studied South Africa and plan on going there someday to see that country for myself. Current problems have their genesis in the oppression of the Apartheid era and it was well known recovery from that era would be multi generational.
I know who is at fault for the current and past problems in South Africa, and most of them were Afrikaners.
I support the ANC and the current government of South Africa, and I am glad to see the Nationalist Party's rule to finally be in the dustbin of history.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 3:29:30 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#5. To: Ferret Mike (#4)
I know who is at fault for the current and past problems in South Africa, and most of them were Afrikaners.

South Africa is now the rape capital of the world. They also don't have electricity in many parts of the country anymore. The roads are falling to crap and the unemployment rate is going up.
The transition was - what - nearly 20 years ago when it started? The Afrikaners are not responsible for ALL of that and you know it.
So, things got worse and you're happy. Got it. I don't understand why people advocate for policies that make things worse and are happy as a result. One would think that increased crime, death, and misery would be results that scream "TOTAL FAILURE" but the difference between me and a stock leftist is that I'm data driven and they're driven by emotions. Those two methods of looking at a situation don't reinforce each other.
I'm going to start using a new tagline: Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse.
Elect anyone but Obama, Clinton, or McCain.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 4:01:20 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#6. To: mirage (#5)
On the contrary, things are better then they were in Apartheid South Africa, a whole lot better.
People are not deprived basic citizenship and shipped to remote and desolate parts of the country.
People are not banned, unable to discuss and work in political advocacy and endeavors only being allowed to meet one person at a time.
Black leaders are no longer routinely tortured and murdered in order to keep the Black and Colored (South African racial categories of that time) disorganized and oppressed.
What is being reaped now is a crop of problems sowed decades ago by the oppressive, fascist and racist Apartheid government of the Nationalist Party.
Things will improve there, and the country has it's collective soul back and finally has hope for a decent future.
You may disagree, but you obviously have no understanding of the scope and depth of oppression under Apartheid and what it had done to that country.
Israel hates the ANC too by the way, as they had a real cozy relationship militarily with the Apartheid Government and they found them to be quite like minded.
If you do not like Zionists, I find it incredulous you can support and defend their closest partners militarily on the African Continent. You really need to do allot more Googling and reading on the topic of South Africa and other history and area studies of the surrounding countries to in in the South of Africa.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 4:17:08 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#7. To: Ferret Mike (#6) (Edited)
There is very little that I support on the African Continent, mostly because the residents, power-brokers, and thugs there are busy turning it into one of the larger hell-holes on the planet.
The question, as always, is one of results. Are things on the whole better now than they were then?
On the whole, no, they are not.
So, we turn to history and see what voices were there speaking and we find Ian Smith whose basic comment was that the electorate needed to be educated before control was handed over to them.
In a lot of ways, Smith was proven correct, especially in his comments about Mugabe. He deserves a second look, especially with the catastrophic failure that is Zimbabwe.
Then again, the folks screaming up and down about Rhodesia deserve a full measure of responsibility for the hellhole there they helped create by forcing a transition before the country was ready for it. They helped put in a dictator who is busy making things worse. Where are these "for freedom!" people now? Under rocks, I would imagine, and afraid to admit they might have made an error.
Likewise, the folks who pushed for rapid change in South Africa (like your group) deserve a full measure of responsibility for what it has turned into and owe the South African people an apology as well as some assistance to help dig them out of the pit they are getting into. Will that ever come? Not a chance. Will there ever be an admission that perhaps they made an error? Not a chance. People with causes don't take responsibility for their actions, particularly when things go badly.
And so, South Africa is all alone again, but with a bunch of smug Americans convinced they've done right.
When lining things up, the "terrorism" against the "terrorists" in SA pales against the number of rape cases. Before the switchover, rape was practically nonexistent in South Africa. Today, there are tens of thousands per year and there are now lots of child rapes, mostly due to the misbelief that "sex with a virgin cures AIDS"
Sounds like terrorism. How many ANC people were beaten versus how many rapes? Do you really want to go there?
The change needed to come a lot slower so there was time to ramp the society up to be able to handle it. Doing it in the manner it was done took SA from a first world country to a second world country. If they aren't careful, they'll turn it into a third-world country.
On the whole, if a change causes a wholesale downsizing of living standards, it is a FAILURE.
Instead, what went on in South Africa was a slow-motion crash and burn rather than a slow-motion ramping up. Will anyone learn from this? Of course not. People with "causes" don't care about what happens after they win. They wash their hands of it and move on to the next cause.
I do process analysis all the time; they needed to do some before going whole-hog into this. A little forethought and a little incrementalism, then some monitoring, then another change, and doing it that way over time would have made the transition work a lot better and the downsides to it could have been mitigated.
But when has any "for a cause!" organization ever done that? Certainly not here in the USA, so there is no expectation of that anywhere. Heck, in the USA you can't even get one of the "for a cause!" groups pushing for change to take responsibility for a failure, which is a primary reason why I put them under a microscope. People or groups who are pathologically incapable of admitting they made an error or taking responsibility for their actions are not deserving of support.
That includes the current US Administration in case you're curious.
It seems that in recent history, whenever Americans "with a cause" desire regime change, it creates a hellhole. Zimbabwe, Iran, Iraq, and Rhodesia are the most recent examples of this.
Worked out really well all-around, hasn't it?
Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 4:54:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#8. To: mirage (#7)
Bull. The Apartheid government made sure the people on the whole were decapitated from their leaders, were made to study in a language not their own with inadequate funding and basic infrastructure for schools, and the slots and funding for education were just not there quite deliberately.
As for Ian Smith, this man was a fascist and liar and had no desire or intent to cater to anyone in his country except for the White elite, and he was not of South Africa which makes me wonder how you can be so confused as to feel he is germaine to a discussion of South Africa. True, The Nationalists of South Africa just worked for the Afrikaner elite much as Smith's government did in his country. But we are not talking about Smith's country here.
There was nothing good about good old fascist, racist South Africa. Those were the bad old days. The problems stemming from ignorance and violence emanate from the effects of Apartheid policy, and as time passes and the situation evolves giving more opportunities and more people became better educated then they ever would of been in racist South Africa, the problems of post Apartheid South Africa will dissipate.
I go will go there and do a great deal of travel by bicycle. I have full confidence I will enjoy the experiance, and I look forward to going.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 5:18:12 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#9. To: Ferret Mike (#8)
Nothing good in either SA or Rhodesia before the switchover?
In Harare now, they have signs saying "Bring back Ian Smith" because under him, at the very least, the people had jobs and food. Now they have neither. You seem to think this is an improvement.
Like Iraq, American intervention in Rhodesia and South Africa has caused more problems than it has solved.
People need to get it through their heads to stop trying to improve others' worlds. It leads only to heartache and disaster.
Both SA and Rhodesia would have come to the same conclusion eventually regardless and eased in a transition that would have been better and not seen people suffer as a result. Unfortunately, smug Americans bent on improving the world caused both countries to become casualties of American arrogance.
Iraq and Iran likewise have gone downhill.
So, it hasn't worked out and the groups involved deserve a full measure of responsibility. Is yours going to take any or is it going to try and rationalize things as you've tried to do on this thread?
Are you going to continue to advocate for intervention in others' affairs or are you going to learn from Iraq and leave well enough alone now?
Just asking. No answer is needed. Just note that the results from all four interventions have been the same. The country went to hell. The "for the cause" people refuse in all four cases to take responsibility for their actions.
Good luck in SA. Crime is rising so don't get mugged. Read the State Department warnings in detail. Gangs are on the rise there in SA as are random shootings.
Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 5:28:02 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#10. To: mirage (#9)
"Nothing good in either SA or Rhodesia before the switchover?"

Smith would of been wiser to not try to hold onto power for the 12 years he did after breaking from Great Britain.
The problems in Zimbabwe are not quite the same as South Africa, but yes, it is far better to see the Smith Government gone. I do not support Robert Mugabe or like him, but he came about as a result of the oppression and racism of allowing no political say or franchise to a population that outnumbered privileged whites twenty to one.
You and I are not likely to suddenly agree on many things in regard to South Africa, so I am not going to repeat myself other then to say I have confidence their future is far brighter now that Apartheid is gone, and that their leadership is a far cry better then that of the thug Robert Mugabe.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 6:08:30 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#11. To: mirage (#9) (Edited)
People need to get it through their heads to stop trying to improve others' worlds. It leads only to heartache and disaster.

Absolutely.
Jazmyn Singleton, a black Duke senior agrees. After living in a predominantly white dorm freshman year, she lives with five African-American women in an all-black dormitory. “Both communities tend to be very judgmental,” says Ms. Singleton, ruefully. “There is pressure to be black. The black community can be harsh. People will say there are 600 blacks on campus but only two-thirds are ‘black’ because you can’t count blacks who hang out with white people.”
Tauzero posted on 2008-05-09 11:37:46 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#12. To: Ferret Mike (#4)
You are in the camp of Black Liberation Theoligy...what a pity...as for your knowledge of South Africa lacking is a over statement.....I hope you do visit and hope you don't come back in a body bag

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 11:52:03 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#13. To: Ferret Mike (#10) (Edited)
Question mark over farmer's killing
The death of a KwaZulu-Natal farmer, who was shot dead while driving towards his home on Thursday night, has raised fears of land-claims-related violence in the area.A police spokesperson, Superintendent Zandra Wiid, said the incident happened at Nqabeni, near Harding, as Winston Fynn drove home."The shooting took place at approximately 6pm... An unknown number of assailants shot at his vehicle and he was struck once in the upper thigh.""He continued to drive to his farm house, where he later died... At this stage the detectives cannot reveal the suspected motive for the attack, and to date no arrests have been made."

Granny handcuffed, raped in Durban
A 54-year-old Durban grandmother was handcuffed and raped in her home by an intruder, police said on Monday. Captain Khephu Ndlovu said the woman was at her Umlazi M Section home on Saturday night when the incidenttook place."She heard someone knocking on the door and thought it was the home-owner but when she opened the door, the intruder came in," said Ndlovu.The woman was handcuffed, ordered to lie on the floor and raped. The incident took place at 9pm.Police have now advised elderly residents not to open the door for anyone.

Man shot dead in alleged driveway hijacking
A Mitchells Plain man has died after being shot in the chest during an alleged early morning driveway hijacking. This is the fifth hijacking incident reported in Mitchells Plain over the past month.Christopher Smith, 51, had pulled his car out of his Woodlands home driveway on Tuesday morning when he was accosted by three men, said police spokesperson Senior Superintendent Billy Jones.
Robbed while praying
Four robbers showed no mercy or respect when they attacked a Soshanguve pastor during a prayer on a home visit to his congregation members on Tuesday.Pastor Andile Bangisi of the Seventh Day Adventists Church, accompanied by two members of his church and the family, were on their knees praying in the kitchen when four armed men entered the house in Block M at 3.30pm."Before I could say Amen I heard them coming in and I opened my eyes. They were pointing guns at us. I got such a fright but I had to co-operate. It was unbelievable," he said.
Pensioners tell of hostage ordeal
Candice Bailey "I woke up with a gun in my mouth and I screamed." This is how Tamboerskloof resident Angela Collins described the start of a two-hour hostage ordeal she and her husband, Stuart, suffered at the hands of four armed gunmen early on Tuesday.The Collins couple, both in their 60s, told the Cape Argus the nightmare had begun when the four masked men, three with guns and one with a knife, charged into their house just before 7am on Tuesday.The couple was forced to sit on the bed while the invaders looted the house of electronic equipment, cellphones and valuables.The gang tied them up and urinated on the bathroom floor before fleeing.
Thieves hit Mbeki's residence
Johannesburg, South Africa Over the long weekend burglars climbed into the roof of President Thabo Mbeki's official residence Mahlambandlovu on the Bryntirion Estate in Government Avenue in Pretoria and stole between R20 000 and R30 000 worth of aluminium.Beeld reported on Wednesday that the 10mm aluminium wire which had been installed in the roof over the past three weeks, formed part of a network of the house's electronic fittings, including closed-circuit television cameras and computer systems, that was designed to protect the house against lightning.

Zimbabwe farmer attacked as Mugabe-supporting 'war veterans' invade his land
A white farmer in Zimbabwe has been attacked and shot at after his land was invaded by 200 "war veterans".Wayne Munro and his family are still under siege on their farm compound in Nyamandhlovu, north of Bulawayo, as observers warned that Robert Mugabe's supporters are stepping up a campaign of intimidation to make sure a run-off election goes his way.The farmer was confronted in his farm office yesterday by a group of invaders, including one man armed with a rifle.When staff tried to wrestle the gun away the man left the office, but Mr Munro was wounded in the hand when other members of the group attacked him with a makeshift axe.
I'm sh*t scared, says Bullard
By Dominique Herman Fired Sunday Times columnist David Bullard has "no desire" to write a column for another newspaper again."I would rather have a voice but I'm sh*t scared that every time I open my mouth I'm going to be attacked," Bullard told a Cape Town Press Club lunch yesterday.Penning his Out to Lunch column for the Sunday Times for 14 years had been "painful" at times and now he was also "tarnished" with the "racist" label.'It was a lapse of good taste on my part' The "real reason" for his sacking - or "'mock the knife', as we now call it", he said, would become clear this month. Bullard said he was fired four days after the column appeared early last month.
'Why did they have to murder her?'
'Eudy was a very kind and humble person who would not hurt anyone' By Lebogang Seale The family of former Banyana Banyana player Eudy Simelane has been shocked by her "gruesome, barbaric and senseless" murder.Her half-naked body was found in an open field next to the Kwa-Thema hostel on the East Rand on Monday morning.According to police spokesperson Captain Johannes Ramphora, the former midfielder was raped before she was stabbed to death.Police subsequently arrested five men in connection with her rape and murder. A knife, believed to have been the murder weapon, was found in the possession of the suspects.

US moves SA staff due to crime
Johannesburg - Buy-to-let investors who have signed long-term leases to house United States Embassy staff are in for a rude shock. Crime concerns have prompted the embassy to terminate residential leases in stand-alone houses in Pretoria, Johannesburg, Durban and Cape Town. The US plans to move embassy families to multi-unit security complexes.Letters of termination have already been sent to some landlords and rental agents have advised them that US Embassy staff and their families will vacate stand-alone houses within 90 days."The US Embassy has taken a decision to move from stand-alone residences to compound residential units due to increased security concerns," reads a letter sent to one rental agent in Pretoria.
Rev Wright and Mandela have one thing in common Liberation Theoligy
Nelson Mandela sings about killing whites
www.youtube.com/watch?v=fcOXqFQw2hc

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 11:59:23 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#14. To: mirage (#7)
Likewise, the folks who pushed for rapid change in South Africa (like your group) deserve a full measure of responsibility for what it has turned into and owe the South African people an apology as well as some assistance to help dig them out of the pit they are getting into. Will that ever come? Not a chance.

You bet these sorry Progressives/Socialists/Communists will be there to help...under the banner of "Uncle Sam" and with YOUR hard earned frns they'll be right there helping...sooner rather than later. The only good Commie/Fascist in America...is a dead Commie/Fascist.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 12:07:51 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#15. To: Ferret Mike (#10)
You and I are not likely to suddenly agree on many things in regard to South Africa, so I am not going to repeat myself other then to say I have confidence their future is far brighter now that Apartheid is gone, and that their leadership is a far cry better then that of the thug Robert Mugabe.

Well, that's your opinion. Smith was right about Mugabe and as such deserves a second look. That's just being honest about history and not trying to hide one's head in the sand.
As for the future of South Africa, just look at the results so far. Dismal. Where you take joy in causing damage and turning a country into a problem, I see failure. The difference between how you and I view things is simple. I look at whether the people have food, roads, electricity, medicine, etc. You look at whether or not your cause won and ignore the aftereffects. Sending people into hell for a few generations is just fine for you. Here, it gets labeled as being a failure.
In that, you and Bush do have something in common. Both of you have advocated regime change that has lowered peoples' standards of living, decreased life expectancy, destroyed basic services, killed off many, increased crime, and sent many to the unemployment and begging lines.
You and President Bush see "victory" in demolishing peoples' lives and making them worse off.
Be proud of that. You're in rare historical company now.
Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 12:08:44 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#16. To: Ferret Mike, robnoel, mirage, all (#4)
The ANC inherited a world class mess from the terroristic South African Government that had practiced the fascist policy of Apartheid. I have studied South Africa and plan on going there someday to see that country for myself. Current problems have their genesis in the oppression of the Apartheid era and it was well known recovery from that era would be multi generational.

So, that of course justifies the murders of the couple of thousand farmers that has taken place?
Evil has no color and one evil does not justify another.
The ANC is, in its own way, every bit as corrupt and despicable as the regime it replaced.
A just solution is yet to be found and implemented. More strife, and more bloodshed fuels only further hatreds. The regime of Apartheid was execrable, but the actions of the ANC have proven little better.
Apologias for injustice and corruption of the ANC because you supported the abolition of Apartheid, and rightly so, does not absolve the ANC and their criminal hanger's on now. Injustice has no color and past injustice is not solved with current injustice propagated by the formerly oppressed. Injustice perpetrated by the left is no less unjust that that perpetrated by the right. Regardless of the mincing words and platitudes we are, in the end, left with the reality.
I think the Zulus have the right idea - "you leave us alone and we won't kill you".
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
Original_Intent posted on 2008-05-09 12:10:07 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#17. To: mirage (#9)
People need to get it through their heads to stop trying to improve others' worlds.

The 4um World Socialists that wipe their holes with our Constitution disagree wholeheartedly...

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 12:10:11 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#18. To: robnoel (#12)
You are in the camp of Black Liberation Theoligy

...while flying a banner of an Establishment Liberal World Orderist Marxist.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 12:11:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#19. To: mirage (#15)
You and President Bush see "victory" in demolishing peoples' lives and making them worse off.

Jorge, McNuts and the rest of the luciferian rockefeller Gay Old Party leadership these days are RATS...World Socialists.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 12:12:36 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#20. To: mirage (#15)
Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group.
While precise definition varies among genocide scholars, a legal definition is found in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group; causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; [and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."[1]
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 12:12:41 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#21. To: mirage (#15)
15 years after independence, the Republic of Ireland (or the Irish Free State, as it was then called) looked like a failure. Likewise India, 15 years after independence.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
aristeides posted on 2008-05-09 12:13:15 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#22. To: Original_Intent (#16)
As always, well done...

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 12:13:37 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#23. To: aristeides (#21)
15 years after independence, the Republic of Ireland (or the Irish Free State, as it was then called) looked like a failure. Likewise India, 15 years after independence.

Ireland and India had been "under the thumb" for a lot longer than either Rhodesia or South Africa. Centuries even.
Neither of them were ready to be set free when they were either. Ireland in particular had been under the British thumb for 800 years.
It has taken a few generations of lowered living conditions and violence for them to dig out of it. All of that could have been avoided with some *proper* planning and *proper* involvement as opposed to 'cut and run'.
Which is better? Turning a place into Iraq or doing it the right way so the people don't suffer needlessly? Which has less suffering attached to it?
The answers to the above tell you everything you need to know.
One of the big mistakes that "people with a cause" make - and this includes our illustrious President - is that they are so arrogant they think everyone in the world can just wake up in the morning and be Americans. They are dead wrong in that assessment. Some people and some cultures and some countries don't want that and aren't ready for it when the "experts" decide that "they" need a change.
Leaving well enough alone is almost invariably the best policy. Things have a tendency to sort themselves out on their own timetables and turn out better.
Oddly enough, your two examples are legacies of the British who are responsible for a great many ills in the world including the legacy of Slavery in North America.
Change doesn't always make things better. Often times, it makes things a heck of a lot worse.
mirage posted on 2008-05-09 12:35:45 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#24. To: robnoel (#13)
Torture and Politics in South Africa and Iraq By George Wauchope Wednesday, June 30, 2004

In this first article, I compare my own experience in the apartheid era in South Africa with that of Iraq under U.S. occupation. My primary focus is to compare the methods of torture that I and other anti-apartheid activists suffered in detention with the treatment of the prisoners in Abu Ghraib. There may be differences in detail, but the aim and the reasoning behind them are the same.
The setting up of an internal Iraqi authority at the end of June also smacks of similarity to the "Bantustan" policy instituted by the apartheid regime in South Africa. And the consistent attacks taking place against the Iraqi leadership also happened in South Africa in the 1980s because these leaders were seen as puppets of the oppressive regime. But the United States of America wants to present itself as the doyen and beacon of democracy in the world.
This month, we marked the 28th anniversary of the Soweto Uprisings that took place on June 16, 1976. The colonial settler regime had deemed it fit to enforce Afrikaans as a medium of instruction in black secondary and high schools in Soweto. Bantu education in itself was demeaning and very inferior because, according to its architects, blacks should not be encouraged to aspire to any positions in life beyond being hewers of wood and fetchers of water. And to rub salt into an open wound, it was directed that blacks should also be taught that Afrikaans "is die baas se taal" (is the master's language). The pupils resorted to a peaceful protest, and the army and police were unleashed on them resulting in hundreds of deaths. The whole country was on fire.
Were there any punitive measures taken against the racist apartheid regime by the U.S. government? None. Was there any talk of regime change? None. The U.S. government used its veto powers in the Security Council of the United Nations with impunity. We in South Africa called for sanctions against our regime; we called for an arms embargo; we called for disinvestment; we called for the total isolation of South Africa -- but to no avail. Instead, a new term called "constructive engagement" was coined by Americans in order to support the racist colonial-settler regime. This implicit support for the apartheid regime in South Africa led the liberation movement to seek for help elsewhere. The USSR and its Eastern Block allies, China and Libya, became the darlings of the liberation movement because of the intransigence of the West. In the current crisis, Iraq will also find comrades who will support her cause and these may not necessarily be acceptable to the U.S. administration.
In June 1976, I was chairman of the Johannesburg Central Branch of the Black Peoples' Convention (BPC). Steve Biko was the honorary BPC president because of the banning orders that had been imposed upon him. The BPC sought for a court interdict to restrain the Department of Bantu Education from enforcing Afrikaans as a medium of instruction. This happened on June 13, 1976. The eruption took place whilst the legal process was in motion.
As I was going to work on June 17, the army -- which was patrolling Soweto and firing their guns at people -- shot a lady who was standing next to me at the bus stop. (I often wonder if the bullet was meant for me.) Images of a U.S. army helicopter killing three Iraqis who do not appear to be posing any threat have been screened on French television (Sunday Times, May 13, 2004). Amnesty International said that scores of civilians have been killed, apparently as a result of excessive use of force by U.S. troops or been shot dead in disputed circumstances (ibid). Sounds déja vu, doesn't it? In South Africa, every black person was always seen as a suspect, and what blacks have in common with Iraqis is that they are not white. Of course, when the colour of a person determines whether they will be treated with respect and dignity, or not as a person at all, then racism comes into the picture.
I thought the best thing to do under the circumstances was to call an ambulance to help the lady who had been shot. At that time, telephones could only be found at a medical clinic, hospital or police station. The nearest to me was a police station, called Moroka. I went there to ask to use their phone. They asked who I was, and when I told them they jumped with excitement and locked me up. Apparently I was on the police wanted list, so the local police phoned the regional security police, who came and got me. Upon my arrival in their office, about 12 of them pounced on me and assaulted me without asking any questions. The idea was to rattle and intimidate me, and to put me off guard. They later told me that I could expect worse if I did not cooperate. I had to tell them what they wanted to hear: what they had conjured as the cause of the uprisings; and there had to be a Communist behind it. Who needs a Communist agitator when their behaviour would have driven the most humble person to extremes? That was my first spell of detention, but indeed, the worse was still to come.
I was taken back to the Moroka police station. Innocent civilians were being wantonly killed by the army, and a big truck was used to dump the corpses into the yards in Soweto. Each time a truckload of corpses came, I was taken out of the cell and shown what white power was doing to black power. I remember the horror of seeing a mother with her baby on her back; apparently the bullet went through the mother to her baby and killed them both. The purpose was to soften me for interrogation. In most conflicts, women and children are the ones who suffer more than anybody else.
I was then informed that I was detained under Section 6 of the Terrorism Act, which meant I was kept in solitary confinement for over a year. This is no different from what has been happening in Guantanamo Bay or Abu Ghraib. I was moved from one detention center to another -- the aim being to disorient and destabilise me. A person's sense of identity depends upon the continuity in his surroundings, habits, appearance, and relations with others, and detention is geared to cut one off from all feelings of the known to uncertainty and terror. According to Staff Sergeant Ivan Frederick, a guard at Abu Ghraib, detainees there were kept in isolation for up to three days in windowless rooms.
During interrogation I was kept naked and the police would comment on the size of my genitals with scorn and mockery. Electric shock was also used on my genitals to make me talk. Sexual humiliation was used as a form of breaking me, just as it was done in Abu Ghraib. The publication of naked prisoners being mocked by PFC Lynndie England was not only an insult to their manhood, but also a direct violation of their sacred religious beliefs. It also reminded me of what I went through during my detention. The use of a suffocating bag or hood around one's head, of dawn to dusk interrogation for days without a break, and of physical and psychological abuse are all forms of torture that are used with a variety here and there.
Two CIA interrogation manuals surfaced in 1997 after the Baltimore Sun obtained them under Freedom of Information laws. Reading them in the context of the pictures from Iraq and accounts from Guantanamo suggests that the advice they contain is still being applied. One dating from 1983 was written for use in Honduras. Entitled Human Resource Exploitation Training Manual, it states: "The purpose of all coercive techniques is to induce psychological regression in the subject by bringing a superior outside force to bear on his will to resist. Regression is basically a loss of autonomy."
Finally, oil today is what gold [South Africa's key natural resource] was in the 20th century, as far as economic hegemony is concerned. The guise of weapons of mass destruction that was used to invade Iraq has been exposed for the fraud that it is. The institution of a U.S.-sponsored authority in Iraq will meet the fate that the Bantustan leaders faced in apartheid South Africa. The abhorred "necklace" [the placement of a burning tire around a suspected regime collaborator] has been replaced by the even worse suicide bombers. People who are perceived to be sympathetic to the invaders -- whether they be in authority or aspiring police or soldiers -- will incur the wrath of the Iraqi people. Imperialism and neo-colonialism will not be tolerated by the people of Iraq who seek peace. One brutal dictatorship should not be replaced by an even more subtle one though equally brutal foreign dictatorship. Peace comes about as the result of justice being seen to be done, and there can be no peace without justice.
http://thewitness.org/article.php?id=52

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 13:20:24 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#25. To: robnoel (#20)
"Genocide is the deliberate and systematic destruction of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group."

Afrikaners were guilty of genocide torture and mass murder in South Africa, which is why worldwide pressure ended the rule of the Nationalist Party with it's sanctions against them that only countries like Israel worked around to continue their healthy military relationship with the Apartheid regime.
I will never forget nor forgive the Apartheid regime of South Africa any more then I would forgive and forget what Nazi Germany did in WW II.
South Africa is far better off without Apartheid then it ever was with this way of doing genocide and enslavement's boot on the nation's collective neck.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 13:43:21 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#26. To: Ferret Mike (#24)
Innocent civilians were being wantonly killed by the army, and a big truck was used to dump the corpses into the yards in Soweto.

This article is a piece of fiction.
"There was no doubt in my mind that as a member of the white community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the white community first and foremost."<-- I bastardized Michelle Obama's quote ;-)
X-15 posted on 2008-05-09 13:47:39 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#27. To: Ferret Mike (#25) (Edited)
After Apartheid fell, South Africa's GDP dropped by a factor of 3 in a matter of a few years (the irony being that even most blacks there are now economically worse off than they were). That's what happens when you turn power over from people who know how to run a modern economy and infrastructure to those who just stepped out of the stone age.
The Apartheid government of South Africa was also our ally in the struggle with Communism, while the African National Congress was Marxist through and through. Supporting the ANC over the apartheid government was one of the worst sorts of backstabbing the US government ever committed.

Rupert_Pupkin posted on 2008-05-09 13:48:14 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#28. To: X-15 (#26)
"This article is a piece of fiction."

It is no more fiction then the Sharpsville Massacre was.
The Apartheid regime practiced genocide torture and murder. That is a historic fact they are quite aware of in that country.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 13:50:28 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#29. To: Ferret Mike (#28)
The Apartheid regime practiced genocide torture and murder.

I don't hear the bleeding hearts complaining about the genocide, torture, and murder committed by Mugabe against the white farmers. All I hear is demand for more aid money to bail them out now they they've killed off or driven away the only people who knew that crops need irrigation and fertilizer rather than magic spells and rain dances to grow.

Rupert_Pupkin posted on 2008-05-09 13:52:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#30. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#27)
Communists were part of the French Resistance too. When you are facing a murderous and racist tyranny, you don't stay as picky as you might be in better times about others willing to fight oppression with you.
There is nothing wrong with this alliance considering the oppressive nature and bloodthirstiness of the foe involved. Not any more then has happened in other countries historically when facing government as evil as formerly existed in Apartheid South Africa.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 13:55:25 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#31. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#27)
the African National Congress was Marxist through and through

Ahem

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 13:58:47 ET (1 image) Reply Trace Private Reply
#32. To: Rupert_Pupkin (#29)
Bull. I criticized Mugabe last night and have never liked the man. He was a great revolutionary and was just in helping overthrow the oppressive regime there, but his talents ended there. The farm seizures were wrong and based on desires to revenge that cut off Mugabe's nose to spite his face.
There was a better path to take that would of maintained the social and economic cohesiveness of Zimbabwe and achieve reform, but the Mugabe government chose to build their own apparatus of oppression and relies on terror and murder to keep power, much as their predecessors did.
He gets no get out of jail card from me.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 14:01:02 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#33. To: Ferret Mike (#30)
When you are facing a murderous and racist tyranny, you don't stay as picky as you might be in better times about others willing to fight oppression with you.

Don't you wish...you SOBs pulled that with the Ron Paul campaign which concluded with a Trotsky reference.
AFAIC, maybe we should just let you necommies and neocons (same thing, different marketing brand) burn down the last of it and then deal with the whole of you traitors...

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 14:01:09 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#34. To: Ferret Mike (#25)
Never so much marxist crap in my life .....heres a question for you how many communist blacks died under apartheid?

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 14:32:35 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#35. To: robnoel (#34)
Watch out there, you're playing with the truth and somebody's likely to get burned...
;-)
"There was no doubt in my mind that as a member of the white community, I am obligated to this community and will utilize all of my present and future resources to benefit the white community first and foremost."<-- I bastardized Michelle Obama's quote ;-)
X-15 posted on 2008-05-09 14:34:04 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#36. To: robnoel (#34)
In Angola and Mozambique, the neighboring countries, in those countries alone, the South African depredations killed about million-and-a-half people and led to some $60 billion in damage during the period of constructive engagement with the u.s. support. It was a horror story.

Noam Chomsky.
I imagine almost all those 1.5 million were black. Of course, I have no idea how many of them were Communists.
To reason, indeed, he was not in the habit of attending. His mode of arguing, if it is to be so called, was one not uncommon among dull and stubborn persons, who are accustomed to be surrounded by their inferiors. He asserted a proposition; and, as often as wiser people ventured respectfully to show that it was erroneous, he asserted it again, in exactly the same words, and conceived that, by doing so, he at once disposed of all objections. - Macaulay, "History of England," Vol. 1, Chapter 6, on James II.
aristeides posted on 2008-05-09 14:37:22 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#37. To: robnoel (#34)
I am not a proponent of Marx, and in the context of the severe problems created by the oppression created by the Apartheid regime of the Nationalist Party that is primarily an Afrikaner entity, the Communists are a component of the political landscape, but are not anywhere near as influential as you would like to project.
As far as your question goes, I don't care how many of those fighting to liberate South Africa were communist. I also don't care how many in the French Resistance in WW II were communists either.
The time to start opposing political opponents like the communists was after the end of the Apartheid era, just as normal political efficacy did not resume the usual political battles in France and other places until the struggle to get rid of the German nazis was over.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 14:42:28 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#38. To: Ferret Mike (#37)
I am not a proponent of Marx I just support a Marxist on the Internet, in my hood and everywhere I go.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 14:45:10 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#39. To: aristeides (#36) (Edited)
Thats a bogus figure how do I know I spent many years in the SADF...in total less than 5000 blacks died in South African custody since the inception of apartheid in 1948 in the less than 10 years the ANC has surpassed that number ....why is it both of you quote commies to justify your positions....

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 14:57:04 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#40. To: robnoel (#39)
Bull shit. You live in La-la land to pull that ridiculously low figure out of your pointy headed hat.
The authorities were fond of spinning people they tortured, usually upside down, beating them viciously as they did this. They called it 'the helicopter.'
South Africa was a land of internal bannings, denial of citizenship, cruel policies of employment that separated families most of the year, calculated murder of those who became leaders in political movement opposing the Apartheid regime, and all forms of torture, murder and mayhem by the government's security apparatus.
Minor Atrocities of the Twentieth Century
I believe this sources tallies is lower then actual figures, but it's conservative estimates of the death caused by Apartheid is still much higher then your cooked figures.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-09 15:12:13 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#41. To: Ferret Mike (#40)
For someone who has never been there you have no credibility to argue with me your source of info are all pure communist propaganda

South Africa Betrayed by communist liberal inflicted misery!!
Way back in 1960, in a speech to MPs at the Houses of Parliament in Cape Town, the then British Prime minister Harold MacMillan spoke of the 'wind of change' blowing through the continent of Africa as more and more majority black populated countries left the white run colonies to determine their own fate. Little did he know or realize the tragic dimensions these 'winds of change' would bring to all of Africa.
It used to be said that white apartheid run South Africa was twenty years behind the rest of the western world....what a load of horse manure! Perhaps, in terms of television, hard porn, drug abuse, multiculturalism, human rights for child molester's, rapists and murderers we were behind the rest, because we never tolerated the filth, decay and immorality liberalism has force vomited on western societies like Britain, America and the rest of the west. But when it came to anti-communism, South Africa was far ahead of the rest of the two faced west who were fighting the cold war against the communist at their front & back gate, whilst at the same time supporting and funding communist trained terrorists like the anc, zanu pf and other groups operating in Southern Africa indiscriminately murdering people and trying to destabilize the region.
The only way the western backed commies could infiltrate and eventually take over S.A. was through an ace card......the easily led and manipulated black population along with a newfound allie.....a word called 'apartheid', and finally, it's own born & bred home grown traitor, De Klerk! Black South Africans were incited to burn down their schools, rebel against law & order, refuse to carry identity cards or as they were known....passbooks, kill, maim and in general try and destroy South Africa's infrastructure. They were even directed to maim and murder their own fellow blacks whenever they thought they were not towing the commie line. White liberals and communists like the Joe Slovo, the Oppenheimers, Helen Suzman, Ronnie Kasrils and many others were the brains and mainstay behind Mandela's communist horde, aided and abetted by the likes of the CIA and MI5, not to mention the fools in their millions abroad who were force fed anti-South African propaganda for decades.
The Oppenheimer family, one of the leading so called elite families (along with others) in South Africa, working hand in hand with the Rothschild & Rockefeller families who control the mass media, banking oil, pharmaceutical and mineral and arms cartels, are at the head of the new world government soon to come. Yes, 'The New World Order' is upon us, right before our eyes, and many, if not most are swallowing it hook line & sinker! Africa is securely in the bag with it's black moron dictators firmly in place, thinking they are controlling and running things, whilst the populations of that continent are squirming, killing, raping, and declining into a cauldron of pure filth and immorality by the day, while the top dog's live it up.
The downfall of apartheid had nothing to do with human rights for blacks, it had nothing to do with the so called oppressed blacks, it had and still has all to do with those really in charge in Europe and America controlling Africa. Perhaps at present the west are not showing too much interest in Africa, well that would be right, they are not! All they are interested in is the minerals and the inhabitants who can dig it up for them as cheaply as possible.
I talk to hundreds of people who think that South Africa today is a land of hope & glory, milk & honey and that madiba is the next best thing to God! Some believe he is the greatest statesman that ever lived...so short lived are their memories or perhaps they only choose to follow and believe the controlled media's take on this terrorist and white hater. Here is a man who with the help on the leftist west and his fellow moron blacks, who has taken South Africa to it's present state of decay from a once first world country that makes current Britain look like a third world dump. Here is a man who would, given the chance, turn America and Britain over to Islam at the blink of an eye......his very pals who fought so hard to 'free his people'! By God, if was not so sad it would be a great joke! Here is a man who sold out black & white South Africans to poverty, destabilization, anarchy, and filth. Of all the blacks in Africa, blacks in apartheid run South Africa were better off than any other black in Africa.....education, health care, properly built homes with running water and electricity, public transport, they had it all, and many had it for free! What do they have today....virtually nothing, many live in squatter camps either on vacant areas of land or within towns and cities riddled with aids, typhoid and malaria. Once vibrant Cities like Johannesburg, Cape Town, Durban And Port Elizabeth are nothing more than run down ghetto's today with few white inhabitants.
Is this what America and Britain wanted for South Africa? Seems so! This is definitely what the fat cat's wanted and paid for! If it pains George Bush and his poodle Blair so much to see us suffer in Southern Africa, why do they not send a warship filled with troops to kick mugabe's ass into orbit and bring back stability in South Africa by turning the country over to people who want what is right for all South Africans. Naaa...they don't wanna give us that! Then we will again be a threat to what they ultimately want....full control! Besides, what real threat does mugabe, mandela, m'beki or really any black goon in Africa pose to the west...denada, nothing, zilch! They are way too busy trying to stamp on the real threat to them at present, Islam and the communist Chinese. You don't bother with nits when sharks are trying to bite you in two.
Our boy Mandela is Americas greatest critic, whom he calls a threat to civilization. By gawd, a pekki from the sands of Transkei who has only just learned how to spell civilization making out he knows what it stands for after just recently taking South Africa back to the dark ages? If anyone is a threat to civilization, it's Islam, communism, he elite bloodlines of royalty and the super rich in power. We are now quickly heading for a one world fascist state run by the few. As for those liberal leftist morons who shoved South Africa over the edge from within, where are they now? All living abroad because it's way too dangerous and backward to live and educate their sprogs in South Africa. Talk about rats deserting a sinking ship! South Africans have been betrayed by duplicity. When confronted by the monster they helped to create, they have turned tail and run. These are the South Africans who have inflicted the misery on the country and their own countrymen. They are the staunch supporters of of the communist infiltration of South Africa. They funded it, they fought for it, and they got it.....where are they?
The ultimate irony is that the liberals of the west believe they can save Africa without seeing that this is the destruction that they have ultimately caused.......but can they save themselves from the same encroaching destruction? Time will tell!

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 15:21:41 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#42. To: Ferret Mike (#40)
Crickets!!!!!

robnoel posted on 2008-05-09 20:58:43 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#43. To: FOH (#22)
Thank you for the kind words good sir.
"The difference between an honorable man and a moral man is that an honorable man regrets a discreditable act even when it has worked and he is in no danger of being caught." ~ H. L. Mencken
Original_Intent posted on 2008-05-09 23:50:59 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#44. To: Original_Intent (#43)
Thank you for the kind words good sir.

I only wish I could as eloquently articulate how inspiring you are to Constitutional-America loving patriots from border to border and coast to coast...you're one of the really special people in any 4um you participate.
That's just how it is kind sir.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-09 23:55:31 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#45. To: robnoel (#42)
I don't play cricket actually, but I do work and after work I went to see Barack Obama at the University of Oregon from where I just came. ;-D

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-10 1:08:42 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#46. To: robnoel (#41)
Citation please bru, I would like a link to read more or to do some reseach on this piece, thanks.
I will read anything I find on South Africa, and though you and I will likely never see eye to eye on many tnings, I would find it lekker good to hear your POV.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-10 1:59:41 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#47. To: Ferret Mike (#45)
I went to see Barack Obama at the University of Oregon from where I just came.

Chuck Baldwin for President 2008

FOH posted on 2008-05-10 2:05:11 ET (1 image) Reply Trace Private Reply
#48. To: Ferret Mike (#46)
Not sure if you could be objective you have not walked in my shoes or have lost relatives to random violence your problem like many is that you think you have some link or connection with Africa...the only thing black Americans have in common with Africans is the colour of skin and even that is a bad comparison as most American blacks have a much lighter complexion....
Knock yourself out
www.southafricathetruth.net/index.php

robnoel posted on 2008-05-10 9:30:00 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#49. To: Ferret Mike (#46)
Have you been to the bay area lately? The crime is getting bad. I think the pacifists will come to a rude reality about the urban minority gang situation.

angle posted on 2008-05-10 9:35:59 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#50. To: robnoel (#48)
I doubt if there are any Black/Colored people who have not lost relatives to random violence themselves, some of it emanating from the way culture, employment, education, politics, and many other things people here take for granted in the United States were stacked against them in South Africa.
Besides that note, thanks for the link. I was reading the current news down there and have to update my perspective anyway. I have always read material from all factions down there, and one of my favorite all time writers anywhere is Nadine Gordimer, who herself was the victim or random crime down there.
She is a tough old lady though and got the better of those trying to rob her.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-10 9:41:16 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#51. To: angle (#49)
"Have you been to the bay area lately? The crime is getting bad. I think the pacifists will come to a rude reality about the urban minority gang situation."

I have rarely been in California except for the North Coast area. I grew up on the East Coast in Connecticut before moving to Oregon. I have little or no use for that state below Oregon.
I think the early 80s was the last time I saw the Bay area.

"Only those who dare to fail greatly can ever achieve greatly." Robert F. Kennedy
Ferret Mike posted on 2008-05-10 9:44:04 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
#52. To: Ferret Mike (#50)
I'm very aware of Nadine Gordimer and her story like many liberal Jews in South Africa at that time opposing official government policy was a violation of South Africas "war on terror" legislation.Bear in mind America at that time was fighting the so called war on communism South Africans saw communists in the same light and anyone giving aid and support were treated the same both here and there
As for her many books like many given out by Nobel a little fact a lot of fiction A South African Childhood, was not wholly biographical and contained some fabricated events.

robnoel posted on 2008-05-10 10:01:32 ET Reply Trace Private Reply
Top • Page Up • Full Thread • Page Down • Bottom/Latest

Freedom4um